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The Latest: Daylight reveals damage to Istanbul airport

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By DOMINIQUE SOGUEL and ZEYNEP BILGINSOY

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Turkish officials report 50 dead now.

ISIS must be eliminated.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

If only these savages had been shown love and compassion before detonating their bombs.

-4 ( +6 / -10 )

Savages care nothing of others. The may have smiled as they self detonated. Maybe not, Turkish police did intercept them sadly too many innocent people around. Now they meet their fate, not the virgins though.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

You need to believe some seriously delusional dogma to not only blow yourself up but intend to hurt others...

Yes this particular brand or interpretation of belief is frightening, but until we all value critical thinking and value the freedom of others this problem is never going away.

Disgusting, disappointing and sadly becoming expected.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

I see that Mohamad Bazzi's article has been buried by JT as it obviously conflicts with the news coming out of Turkey.....

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Hmm but if IS is eliminated, who will buy our weapons?? The cognitive dissonance exercised by most people is simply mind boggling.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

RIP. It's always the innocent that gets hurt the most. The thing is, the Turkish government haven't been squeaky clean either in terms of terrorism.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Turkish officials report 50 dead now. ISIS must be eliminated.

Mark, most likely this is not ISIS but the PKK which is a Kurdish resistance group. ISIS has been not confronting Turkey as they have had their hands busy with the US, its resistance fighters and Assad's army. The PKK is the one which has historically had trouble with the turkish authorities. Now the turks are fighting them in syria, so they are bringing the fight to turkey as well. That's most likely what's going on. My fear is that airports will now be a major target and that will lead to more intrusive and orwellian measures in airports all over the world.

-5 ( +6 / -11 )

The sad thing is people are probably going to bypass this news article because ... "Oh, it's just another day in one of them terrorist countries...????"

4 ( +4 / -0 )

" He says the attack “shows that terrorism strikes with no regard to faith and values.” "

Err, no. It was not a bunch of Buddhists or Bahais who did that. In the event, Erdogan is reaping what he sowed. He has been in bed with Isis, now he has to live with ISIS.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

And cue the usual virtue signallers who cry "racism" when the acute problem of Islamic terrorism is pointed out.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

This will never end will it

2 ( +2 / -0 )

You will see more attacks like this in Turkey as the terrorists are pushed out of Syria. Could be payback backlash from Turkey buying ISIS stolen Syrian oil and for Turkey importing and safe-harboring terrorists and exporting said terrorists into Turkey, Probably will not stop until the corrupt Erdogan is thrown out either.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

ISIS has been not confronting Turkey as they have had their hands busy with the US

What about the hundred-plus killed last October at a Kurdish rally in Ankara? Or tourists killed in Istanbul in January and March?

4 ( +6 / -2 )

The sad thing is people are probably going to bypass this news article because ... "Oh, it's just another day in one of them terrorist countries...????"

Hey at least this news reached on news sites and social media. I initially found out about this on twitter #Istanbul. Surprising I guess, since stuff like these happen almost on a weekly basis in others parts of the Middle East and we hardly hear about it.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Turkish Airlines have been advertising on CNN recently and talking with some people about if Turkey were safe or not I inappropriate ky answered 'yes' -I take it back now ......

0 ( +1 / -1 )

So, the religion of peace kills and maims another few hundred people. Wa'shad Allah!

2 ( +5 / -3 )

The would-be despot Erdogan has been a supporter of ISIS in Syria and has been conducting his own terror campaign against the Kurds. This is the result. I hope the Turkish people will remember this if they ever get a chance to vote Erdogan out.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

FOX News Quiz:

The Istanbul airport quiz is mostly

a) Obama's fault. b) Clinton's fualt. c) Both Obama's and Clinton's fault. d) Democrat's fault. e) the Gays fault.

8 ( +11 / -3 )

Hey at least this news reached on news sites and social media. I initially found out about this on twitter #Istanbul. Surprising I guess, since stuff like these happen almost on a weekly basis in others parts of the Middle East and we hardly hear about it.

ThePBot - a total myth created by people who obviously don't watch or read the news but rely exclusively on social media for their news. A little advice; twitter is not a news organization.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

What about the hundred-plus killed last October at a Kurdish rally in Ankara? Or tourists killed in Istanbul in January and March?

They are not IS. Look, IS is focused on Iraq and Syria. They don't tend to venture out from that area. Now there are other pockets of attacks whose people pledge alliegance to IS because it looks good. Take Omar Mateen in Florida. NO IS connection but just decided to pledge allegiance to them.

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

They are not IS. Look, IS is focused on Iraq and Syria. They don't tend to venture out from that area.

Aly Rustom- they certainly found their way to Paris and Brussels

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Shame on you all. We don't know yet if they were part of Isis, or inspired by Isis, or anything to do with the religion of peace. Maybe they were Salvattion Army, or Lutherans or Nichiren Buddhists.....

@Black Sabbath. No there would be no quiz like that at Fox News. They are complete simpletons over there. They'll probably all say that it was probably the work of radical Islamic terrorists. Yeah, insane isn't it?

Who ever heard of Islamic terrorists blowing themselves up.?

3 ( +5 / -2 )

"Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world." Winston Churchill-1899

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Maybe Turkey will start to rethink its slip away from secularism.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Churchill got it exactly right.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Demented barbarians.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Look, IS is focused on Iraq and Syria.

They're not in Libya, either.

Churchill got it exactly right

Yes! It is better to jaw, jaw than to war, war.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Would it be wrong today after giving my sympathy to those who lost loved ones, and condemning the evil cowards who did this to just make an honest comment that the less Muslims in a place the safer I feel. - airports, countries etc

Is that hate speech? I think it's just being intellectually honest. Yeah I know, Only 1% are terrorists. So, 1% of 50 makes me feel better than 1% of 10 million.

I wish Muslims of the world would all go on a march and solve this for us. Because the rest of the world can't even begin to understand why people blow innocent people up and themselves at the same time.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

You can be arrested in Britain these days for quoting churchill's writings on Islam. Im sure those Brits who died fighting the nazis in World War 2 would have liked to have known before hand that this was the future Britain they were dying for.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Aly Rustom- they certainly found their way to Paris and Brussels

How do you know that they were IS? Because they said so?? Omar Mateen said he was IS. He wasn't.

Demented barbarians.

One could say the same about the west and its behaviour in the mideast. Also Hitler was european, not a muslim..

You can be arrested in Britain these days for quoting churchill's writings on Islam

You can also be arrested in most of the EU these days for quoting Hitler's writings on Jews as well as denying the holocaust.

Would it be wrong today after giving my sympathy to those who lost loved ones, and condemning the evil cowards who did this to just make an honest comment that the less Muslims in a place the safer I feel. - airports, countries etc

Would it be wrong today to just make an honest comment that the less homosexuals and jews in a place the safer I feel. - airports, countries etc

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Aly Rustom, are you equating churchill's comments on islam with hitler's statements on the jews?

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Aly Rustom, are you equating churchill's comments on islam with hitler's statements on the jews?

Is one more tolerant than the other?

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Aly Rustom, are you equating churchill's comments on islam with hitler's statements on the jews?

Yes.

Is one more tolerant than the other?

No.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Islam = peace,,,ha ha

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

And Isis, and all the other Islamic terrorists around the world are pretty similar. They shoot, kill, burn, rape and bomb innocent people

And so does the US military, which is WHY we have terrorism in the first place.

And as for you? I feel safe around Jews and gays. Tell you what. I'll live in a country 90% Jewish and 10% gay. YOu go and live in a 90% Muslim country. Yeah - I'd feel safe. How about you? Lol

I would, and I have. I have lived in Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, and Syria. I have found the people there to be much friendlier and far more tolerant than people like you. And yes, I felt very safe there and NEVER had a problem. I would prefer to live next to a muslim any day than next to a hateful racist. Your turn. Move to Israel, then come back and tell us about your experiences.

Islam = peace,,,ha ha

What a really stupid comment.

As of 2015, over 1.7 billion or about 23.4% of the world population are Muslims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world

That's almost 1 out of every 4 people on this planet.

If it was not a peaceful religion, the world would have ended by now.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

"If it was not a peaceful religion, the world would have ended by now."

It does seem to produce more murderous fanatics than other religions at this moment in time. If it were a tolerant religion, the countries in which its ideas are enshrined in law would be far more tolerant than they are.

You mentioned Egypt. Check the polls on what the people think the appropriate punishment for apostasy should be.

I really wish people would stop making excuses for intolerance and violence.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

@Aly Rustom, "Move to Israel, then come back and tell us about your experiences".

Can you elaborate a little on this Aly?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Poor old Britain. It's really come to that?

Sadly, it really has come to the point where some people believe anything so long as it feeds their prejudices.

I don't know about your country, but in most places I imagine if you stood up in a cinema and through a megaphone loudly quoted Churchill, the Bible, the Koran, or a Hans Andersen story you'd be asked to leave, and if you refused, you'd face arrest. While this is not what happened in the "quoting Churchill" case, I think it matters whether the circumstances were closer to this or were an actual suppression of someone freely expressing an opinion. Personally, I have no problems with someone being arrested for shouting anything through a megaphone right in front of my face. But that's me.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@Aly Rustom, you are a blatant apologist. You can't comprehend that Islam is a religious ideology (NOT AN ETHNICITY), and just because a person claims they're Muslim doesn't completely reflect on their individual personality or morality. I've seen some people claim they were Christian, and had the worst personalities that were not based on Christian teachings.

Arabs are an ethnicity, Persians are an ethnicity, Egyptians are an ethnicity, Indonesians are an ethnicity. African is an ethnicity (Racism involves a person's ethnicity, NOT their RELIGOUS BELIEFS)

Being Muslim is not an ethnicity, being Christian is not an ethnicity, being Buddhist is not an ethnicity. (They are people who either follow or claim to follow an IDEOLOGY)

I don't judge people according to their religion, I judge people by how they ACT. But I do call the religion of Islam for what it is, and when we see terrorist acts like this happening all over the world, it is due to Islamic teachings. It is the ideology and history behind Islam that is most damning.

Islam does not shape people although it can influence people to do certain things depending on what kind of person they are or how they were brought up and "indoctrinated".

Also the 1.7billion followers of Islam is much lower than that. est. is about 1.1billion and slowly but surely dropping. You'd be surprised how many people try to leave Islam (because they actually think more than the blind faith followers who can't read for themselves), or keep up appearances because they can suffer severe persecution (or worse) in their community or country for stating their apostasy from Islam.

Also Islamic extremism has been around for far longer than the US has even been in existence. So go ahead and keep making excuses for Islamic influenced "bad behavior" in modern times. Islam has been at it for centuries before anyone was born. And it all started with the founder of Islam. There was nothing peaceful about it, except for the very beginning when Mohammed had no military power.

You haven't talked to any ex-muslims have you? How about secular Arabs or M.Easterners? Obviously you haven't. Try it sometime and you'll understand a bit more what they themselves went through just to keep living outside of an oppressive cult driven.

Even better yet, try having a chat with some ex-Muslims who used to actively engage in terrorism. They'll tell you exactly the same thing I'm telling you. Islamic ideology and it's core teachings are the cause. It indoctrinates, it brainwashes, it literally states that questioning it's methods is blasphemous, and one should only focus on the religious law, and that religious law trumps EVERYTHING in life.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

HonestDictator, excellent post.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

@HonestDictator

Thanks for the post. I still don't understand what makes Islam so different from other religions. Back in the 16th and 17th centuries in Europe, Christianity inflicted all kinds of horrors and suppression. But things progressed until in the 19th century, in the words of T.H. Huxley, "School-children may be told that the world was by no means made in six days, and that implict belief in the story of Noah's Ark is permissible only, as a a matter of business, to their toy-makers."

Is Islam so fundamentally different from other religions that it prevents similar progress, or is it a lack of external social and economic progress that ties people to continue these beliefs? As a kid, a church minister used to rant at us, and inside my head, I decided he was talking nonsense. I find it hard to believe that Muslim kids don't entertain those same thoughts.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

Albaleo, if muslim kids entertain those thoughts they run the very real risk of being executed in a variety of nasty ways by the religeon of Peace.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

And guess which country is at the top of the list of countries world leaders lose sleep over? Pakistan.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

if muslim kids entertain those thoughts they run the very real risk of being executed in a variety of nasty ways

I'm sure some (most?) entertain them, but I agree about the potential consequences of expressing them in any way. But I think it was probably the same here 500 years ago. So I'm still no wiser. What prevents the changes that we have seen elsewhere? The religion itself or social factors? (I guess I should consider the possibility that the teachings are correct, in which case I'm in for an unpleasant eternity. )

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@HonestDictator

Arabs are an ethnicity, Persians are an ethnicity, Egyptians are an ethnicity, Indonesians are an ethnicity. African is an ethnicity

I'll nitpick a bit, but I don't think Egyptians, Indonesians, and Africans are an ethnicity. I think there are multiple ethnic groups living, and native to, Indonesia, Egypt and the rest of Africa. Even a non-native ethnic person can become an Egyptian, Indonesia, or African.

Islam does not shape people although it can influence people to do certain things depending on what kind of person they are or how they were brought up and "indoctrinated".

I do agree some Islamic teaching is just wrong. Well, to be honest, most religious teachings are wrong in my opinion, and we've all seen different kinds of terror committed by different kinds of fundamentalists. So it's understandable to have doubts about certain people based on their beliefs. That being said, I feel like some people like to hide their discriminatory behavior by saying "I'm not a racist because Muslims aren't a race". That's technically true, but it's still a form of discrimination. In the other side of the world, I'm pretty sure Americans are discriminated in parts of the Middle-East due to stuff like drones strikes and invasions that their country does while normal Americans have really nothing to do with, nor support, that kind of policy (although Trump supporters are damning). So it's wrong to do that in any of the cases. I'm not saying that's you though. I've also read that Islam is the fasting growing religion, but it might be on a certain context. However, I believe the world is getting more secular, atheist, and agnostic, which is a good thing.

@albaleo

Back in the 16th and 17th centuries in Europe, Christianity inflicted all kinds of horrors and suppression. But things progressed until in the 19th century

I think 16th and 17th century Europe was more of a colonialist period, but still with that Christian culture superiority complex going on. The funny things is, during the early medieval period/middle ages in Europe (5th-10th century), the Islamic world had their golden age (8th to 13th century). At a certain point within those timelines, when Europe was in an era known as the Dark Ages where the church was on the top of everything and the rest of society was declining, the Middle East flourished in maths, sciences, literature and culture. I saw a video where Neil Degrasse Tyson even pointed out how the stars have Arabic names and how "Algebra" and "Algorithm" are even based on Arabic words and studies. Back then, Islam was very liberal and progressive compared to Christianity, and is one of the reasons why Islam spread across the world. It wasn't enforced upon people back then. Now it's kind of like the opposite.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@aly rustom,

most likely this is not ISIS but the PKK which is a Kurdish resistance group. ISIS has been not confronting Turkey as they have had their hands busy with the US, its resistance fighters and Assad's army. The PKK is the one which has historically had trouble with the turkish authorities.

In fact, the turkish govt believes it to be ISIS.

@aly rustom, .

I would prefer to live next to a muslim any day than next to a hateful racist. Your turn. Move to Israel, then come back and tell us about your experiences.

You still haven't explained this. Why the sudden reference to israel? What are you trying to imply?

@outrider

,Aly Rustom, are you equating churchill's comments on islam with hitler's statements on the jews?

@aly rustom,

Yes.

seriously? care to explain?

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@thePBot It is discrimination if you want to call criticism of an ideology "discrimination" (but at least use the proper term Bigotry, not Racism). According to this line of thinking people are constantly "discriminating" against Christian ideology if they're not criticizing it. I can tell for a fact I discriminate against Jehovah's Witnesses when they come to my door. But let me ask you this.

If a person's religious (or any) ideology states that they should sacrifice a human child every week at the stroke of midnight, and their religious text says if they don't they'll be out of favor with their divine entity and will be sent to hell to suffer an eternity of 1million lashes a day, and they decide that it must be done no matter what because their religious text says so.

So they immigrate to your country which has secular laws that state, "Don't murder children", but they claim that it is a cultural religious heritage and they should still be allowed to do it even though according to your countries laws that it's not allowed. Should they continue to do so because, their religion says they'll go to hell if they don't and they believe in that whole heartedly?

Should that harmful ideology be allowed to continue its actions in your country in order to appease religious "tolerance"? It's called discretion if you have valid reason to be concerned. No matter what you believe, if you find an ideal completely detrimental to your way of live and the lives of others, especially if it's promoting something harmful to your societal progression, you're going to try and prevent it from happening. Or you could just sit back and do nothing and by the time you realize you should have tried to do something it's too late (As was the case of Nazism).

At what point do you believe that an ideology that promotes harmful activity and is completely against your country's laws that they should keep on doing such a thing in your country and try to spread the same way of thinking?

Nazism was the same way. Some people spoke out against harmful ideology for centuries because deep down in their heart they knew it was wrong. There are many examples of where some folks from ME Islamic countries came to my country and tried to bring their slaves, concubines. Or committed murder, persecution, or just plain violence on their relatives, and people they know because Islam dictated that a "true believer" was allowed to do. But in my country we have laws the do not allow it, and they were tried and convicted according to my nation's laws, not their religious "laws".

I'm firmly against many of the tenets that Islamic ideology teaches. Even some Muslims are advocating for reform in the religion. The apostates most certainly have been putting forward that either reformation or elimination are the only two choices for over 50+ years. Why? Because in their heart they know certain teachings and ideals that Mohammed and his original followers promoted is wrong, deep down in their heart and downright hostile towards non-Muslims and those considered, "Not Muslim enough" AKA Heretics in their ideologies eyes.

Nobody really cares that they want to pray 5 times a day, I don't care they want to wear headscarves, I don't care they don't want to consume alcohol or pork, I don't care that they want to believe in Allah.

We do care that Islam attempts to justify people being murdered for various reasons, promotes subjugation and prosecution of other cultures, political systems, encourages enslavement, and suggests treating women as less than human baby making machines who only exist for the mans pleasure. And especially the fact that they're trying to spread it as far as they can by trying to advantage of countries with secular legal systems that respect their citizens rights and trying to twist it to their own gain.

As for your nitpick, I'll have to clarify for you. Ethnicity is a genetic marker that is passed down in your DNA. Doesn't matter who you are, you can't change it. A person's way of thinking can change, as I've stated above. A Muslim can become an atheist, a Christian can become a Satanist, a Buddhist can become a Scientologist and so on because it is an ideology in their mind that they can choose to follow or not. Islam is and always will be a religious ideology. It is not engrained in anyone's DNA no matter how much Islam tries to indoctrinate it's own followers that they're "born" Muslim.

Nationality is different as well, which is probably where your confusion lies. Yes many different tribes have their origins in different regions and eventually formed the ethnic make up of a country. But there is a reason why terms like Italian-American, German-American, South African Caucasian exist. It denotes both the person's ethnic heritage (where their genes came from), followed by their nationality (the country they were either born in choose to have citizenship to). People can change their nationality, but not their ethnicity. Simple logic.

@Albeo People love to claim, "Well Christianity and Buddhism have their bad apples and violent past, Islam is just going through the same thing!" This requires for people to look beyond blanket religious perception and focus more on comprehend "where and whom it originated from".

Buddha was quite peaceful. Jesus was quite peaceful (but folks still confuse the hostile beliefs of the old testament from Judaism and the new testament which was based by Jesus teachings and the true basis for Christianity). The spread of Roman Catholicism styled Christian beliefs (Thank ancient Roman Empire for that) and the conflict that arose between that and the Ottoman Empire is what gave rise to such violence that you know of resulting in the Crusades and Spanish inquisition as well as the old school missionaries from that era.

Islam's founder tried to base his monotheistic view from Judaism and Christianity (as he understood it) but was considered a heretic by those followers, and driven away. He eventually built up a following and became militant and vengeful towards those that shunned him.

Fact, Mohammed's conquering days had a habit of killing all the men of villages his group raided and keeping the women and children as slaves and concubines. Name one instance where Buddha or Jesus commended their followers for such actions or even encouraged such actions. Any true religion of peace doesn't have it's founder committing such acts.

These extremists and terrorist groups all base the legitimacy of their acts from Islamic texts. They keep showing exactly why they feel their constant murderous and oppressive actions are justified from their perspective. Articles and reports like this aren't going to end until they wise up, or are eliminated (which is pretty hard to do to an ideology)... which we can pretty much expect to be close to never.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Believe whatever you want, keep it out of law and government, and don't think your belief outweighs the rights of anyone else.. its simply really.

We see it in all places from extremist doing this horrible and disgusting nonsense to terrible laws based on religious ideas in the most "free country in the world"....

Religion is not a race, and criticism of any religion and its ideas is not a "phobia".

Don't like being painted with a big brush, edit your books and call yourself something else.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Believe whatever you want, keep it out of law and government,

Who are YOU to tell people how to run their governments?? thinking like that is what got us into this mess the first place.

and don't think your belief outweighs the rights of anyone else..

Isn't THAT exactly what you're doing??

Religion is not a race,

Jews would disagree with you.

and criticism of any religion and its ideas is not a "phobia".

Rather than phobia, I would call it out for what it is: pure disgusting bigotry.

Don't like being painted with a big brush, edit your books and call yourself something else.

Hitler would so proud of you now. A great strapping aryan you are!

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Wikipedia and I would beg to differ.

Ethnicity does not equal race.

For example, 'Japanese' is an ethnicity. 'Asian' is a race.

Again I would disagree. Unless its coming from within. Why? Because you end up with people criticizing that which they don't understand and making comments like Islam is a violent religion, which it clearly isn't.

Sorry, but I still disagree with you. If a religion preaches that women can be owned, then that point deserves to be criticized. If a religion preaches that homosexuality is evil, then that point deserves to be criticized. I don't care whether you are in the religion or not.

I'm a staunch objector to bigotry against Muslims, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with criticizing the wrong parts of the religion. And if people are incorrectly criticizing, then they deserve to be called out for being wrong about what they are criticizing. But stifling of that criticism leads to:

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

If people who hold beliefs in things that are wrong are not told they are wrong, then they will believe that what they are doing is right.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@aly rustom.

No, criticism of any religion is valid.

Again I would disagree. Unless its coming from within. Why? Because you end up with people criticizing that which they don't understand and making comments like Islam is a violent religion, which it clearly isn't. If you want to criticize your own religion by all means do so. But criticizing another religion when you have never practiced it and don't know the ins and outs of it is wrong.

This is ridiculous and dangerous.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Aly you big appolgist you..

I'm simply pointing out there is no absolute arbitrator of the "correct" interpretation of any religion try as you might and this goes for all of them, a fundimentalist Christian who had very anti-gay ideals vs a hippy love and flowers Christian who "loves all things man" both call themselves Christian.. And will argue all day long which is more so.. Guess what it isn't my problem..

Just as you might claim Islam isn't a violent religion there are clearly many who called themselves Muslims who would die to prove you wrong.

Who am I to make comments about another group or country, someone with a free voice, just as you, who happens to value human rights and freedom for as many people as possible.. This is at odds with theocracies and I suggest history would show they are almost always counterproductive to equality and freedom.

Just because someone lives in a country that is majority one religion, doesn't mean everyone is... The slain in the street non religious bloggers in Bangladesh, the women who are in jail for being rape victims in some of the most "developed" cities in the Muslim world aren't feeling so great about it from the inside are they?

Who said anything about condemning individuals, just bad ideas.. if you CHOOSE to identify with something which has bad ideas then you will have to bare that weight, I can't ask all 1.7 billion people what their positions are, similarly for any other religion... And actually I don't care.. It's your business which is why the most simple answer is to keep it out of the public sphere.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

HonestDictator - great post. NZ2011 - well said.

No criticism of islam (or any other religion) by non-believers - what a nightmare.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Ethnicity does not equal race.

Fair enough. I'll give you that. Poor choice of words on my part. But ethnicity can equal religion, such as in the cases of Assyrians, the Armenians, the Sikh, the Druze, the Copts, the Yazidis, the Shabaks, the Zoroastrians, the Mandaeans, the Alawites, the Zazas, the Lurs, the Kaka'i, the Huguenots, the Jews and the Serer (same wiki page). That, I think we can agree on.

If a religion preaches that women can be owned, then that point deserves to be criticized. Where does it say in Islam that women can be owned? (If you are just giving a hypothetical then feel free to ignore this statement.)

If a religion preaches that homosexuality is evil, then that point deserves to be criticized. I don't care whether you are in the religion or not.

I have no problem if a religion preaches that homosexuality or adultery is wrong. Religion is there to provide guidance to a specific lifestyle that one can choose to follow or not. If a set of beliefs say that you shouldn't commit homosexuality or adultery, or impose dietary restrictions that's fine. It is your choice to follow it or not. On the contrary, criticizing a system of beliefs because you see it as wrong, or because it doesn't align with what you believe, is even worse.

This is at odds with theocracies and I suggest history would show they are almost always counterproductive to equality and freedom.

First of all, sorry for going off at you before. Getting a bit defensive with all those right wing nuts on this thread. I would disagree insofar as there are many people happily practicing Islam, Judaism, and a mulitiude of theocratic beliefs and yet can coexist peacfully in democracies.

Just because someone lives in a country that is majority one religion, doesn't mean everyone is... The slain in the street non religious bloggers in Bangladesh, the women who are in jail for being rape victims in some of the most "developed" cities in the Muslim world aren't feeling so great about it from the inside are they

No of course not. But instead of putting islam on trial, we could alot better if we addressed the socioeconomic issues that lead to this type of behavior. Which developed muslim cities are we talking about, by the way? On the other end of the spectrum, we have James Zogby, a devout Muslim, who was appointed by Bernie Sanders to the democratic platform.

Theocracy is not at odds with democracy if its voluntary.

It's your business which is why the most simple answer is to keep it out of the public sphere.

1.7 muslims DO keep it out of the public sphere. Chances are, you've met a muslim and didn't even know it cause they didn't tell you.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

"Rather than phobia, I would call it out for what it is: pure disgusting bigotry."

I despise bigotry.

Can I ask a a question?

Does someone who thinks homosexuality should be a criminal offence qualify a bigot?

Aly, I'm sure you are a very decent guy but you are part of the problem here. Knee-jerk reactions to criticism and cries of Islamophobia are pernicious and dangerous. This religion is has critical problems and people's lives are being taken and destroyed in its name.

I'm sure you know why I asked my question about bigotry. A recent survey in the UK found more than half of Muslims believe homosexuality should be criminalised. This is in a country where more than half of the general population accept gay marriage. You've called out bigotry from posters here. Please do the same for those who hold these revolting ideas.

If you find yourself unable to do this, you really are part of the problem.

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This religion is has critical problems

no different from any other.

and people's lives are being taken and destroyed in its name.

Can't we say the same thing about democracy? I mean, the whole of the middle east was destroyed and millions died for democracy. Should democracy be blamed? How about protestantism for hitler? Christianity for the salem witch trials? Judaism for the slaughter of people in GAza.

Does someone who thinks homosexuality should be a criminal offence qualify a bigot?

Yes, but not only if they are muslim. lets not forget the westboro baptist church. Not to mention the US republicans.

A recent survey in the UK found more than half of Muslims believe homosexuality should be criminalised

Fair enough-NOW was there a similar study done for the Christians, Jews, and Hindus in the UK? If not, why not? I think the results would not be so different from the muslim study. (If there is one out there, someone please post it) But ask yourself the question why the poll was only done for muslims.

Aly, I'm sure you are a very decent guy but you are part of the problem here. Knee-jerk reactions to criticism and cries of Islamophobia are pernicious and dangerous.

Likewise to you. (tip of the stetson) Look, it is islamophobia when people start to target one group of people and paint them with the same brush. WE are talking about a population larger than that of China for Pete's sake. Muslims live and practice Islam so differently. As I said before I have lived in muslim majority countries. The picture being portrayed about islam is just wrong. It is a peaceful religion, but you can hardly ask people to be peaceful when you go and invade their countries, destroy they homes and economies, and kill their families.

You've called out bigotry from posters here. Please do the same for those who hold these revolting ideas.

If they posted here I would, believe me. Unfortunately, they don't.

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No I can't agree that ethnicity necessarily equals some religious observance there are lots of cultural Jews for example, some of the tradition none of the religion.

You are right an individual can have an opinion on homosexuality but when organizations and groups as power as religious sadly are it effects others in many way and in a theocracy or even democratic governments with heavy religious influence this can be law.. No choice there at all.

And if I see people being outcast, minimized, discriminated against who ever they are, including religious people in some circumstance, I will speak loudly... You have every right to be offended as I have every right to be offended at the nonsense I think you are proposing.

A theocracy cant be a democracy... A theocracy is a government based on religion and its rules and regulations aren't based around your choice to follow them or not.

Perhaps I have meet some Muslims who don't choose to to constantly display their religious choice by their choice of clothing.. And great, I never said I had a problem with individual people.. I think everyone should be free to believe as they want just not dictate to anyone else how to live their individual lives...

And on the socioeconomic point, I agree it's important and it's been shown again and again that allowing women control over their reproductive rights and freedom is crucial to this, I think some even mainstream Islamic beliefs are in direct opposition to this.

Sure I'll grant critising something just because I don't like it isn't particularly helpful, but that's not what we are talking about.. We are talking about dogmatic view which in some cases, some times by law and force, are demonstrably hurting people.

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"Does someone who thinks homosexuality should be a criminal offence qualify a bigot?"

"Yes, but not only if they are muslim. lets not forget the westboro baptist church. Not to mention the US republicans."

I fully agree. Anyone who thinks homosexuality should be criminalised is a bigot no matter what their belief system. The Muslim community of the UK has a serious problem with this.

"Fair enough-NOW was there a similar study done for the Christians, Jews, and Hindus in the UK? If not, why not? I think the results would not be so different from the muslim study. (If there is one out there, someone please post it) But ask yourself the question why the poll was only done for muslims."

The same study in the UK found that 11% of non-Muslims believed that homosexuality should be a criminal offence.

Stats from British Religion in Numbers in a poll of Catholics found that in a remarkable shift in tolerance over the decades. I couldn't find any answer to the question of criminalization ( I guess the question may have offended many ). Anyway, 10% of UK Catholics thought homosexuality was always or sometimes wrong. 65% found it rarely or not wrong at all. This poll was taken in 2013. I'd assume stats from Anglicans would be similar. I couldn't find stats for the Jewish or Hindu communities. I'd guess Islam is the front-runner here.

You mentioned Muslims keeping religion out of the public sphere. This is clearly not the case in vast numbers of Muslim majority countries. It also seems more than half of UK Muslims would like to see it enter UK law.

No way, no shape, no form. This is a disgraceful idea.

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You said... And I quote... Perhaps we are having a language issue here....

"A theocracy is not at odds with democracy if it's voluntary."

A theocracy isn't voluntary.. It is the law, it the government...

Perhaps you mean belief isn't at odds with democracy, if that's what you meant, sometimes yes and sometimes no.

Glad you agree about ethnicity, Soooo if someone is from the Middle East or other countries that there may happen to a Muslim majority it isn't racism to discuss religion.. Great. We are getting closer.

As far as treatment and freedom of women.. Mate are you having a joke, in secular democratic countries perhaps women are free to a larger degree but in many heavily regulated theocracies women don't have freedom of movement, access to education, their opinion is only worth half a mans, are punished even when they are the victims..

No point talking to you if you have no interest in actually looking at the problems.

You think I might be ignorant, I am happy to learn and the first to admit I don't know everything, I haven't lived in a Muslim majority country but visited several and seen as the religious ideas take more of a political stage and the once mostly secular places fade they are not places I want to go anymore.

Perhaps your interpretation of Islam is mostly peaceful and you maybe believe in separation of church and state and great for you, but I think is naive to think that all or even the vast majority who haven't had the chances and education you have agree.. This is the trouble with these religious based ideas.. No one has the correct answer, there is no way to check it..

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@Aly Rustom

Very slippery. Now you've dropped your claim that Christians don't share the same level of brutal homophobia as Muslims in the UK ( glad you looked at the maths ) you are now claiming, with no evidence, that this level of brutal homophobia would be shared by Hindus. I have no stats but the following quote may be revealing:

"Anil Bhanot, general secretary of The United Kingdom Hindu Council said: The point here is that the homosexual nature is part of the natural law of God; it should be accepted for what it is, no more and no less. Hindus are generally conservative but it seems to me that in ancient India, they even celebrated sex as an enjoyable part of procreation, where priests were invited for ceremonies in their home to mark the beginning of the process[3"

Can you imagine a leader of the Muslim Council of Britain saying this? If he did, he'd probably be finding himself in receipt of the kind of death threats sent to a Muslim cleric in London who expressed his belief in evolution.

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Soooo if someone is from the Middle East or other countries that there may happen to a Muslim majority it isn't racism to discuss religion

Not at all, discuss it all you want; unless its something ascinine like islam is not a religion of peace.

Mate are you having a joke, in secular democratic countries perhaps women are free to a larger degree but in many heavily regulated theocracies women don't have freedom of movement, access to education, their opinion is only worth half a mans, are punished even when they are the victims..

Ever been to the UAE? How about Israel? Theocracies. Women are treated quite well there. And remember, BOTH Pakistan and Bangladesh have had female heads of state where as the so-called leader of the free world, the US, hasn't.

You think I might be ignorant, I am happy to learn and the first to admit I don't know everything,

I didn't mean you mate.

I haven't lived in a Muslim majority country but visited several and seen as the religious ideas take more of a political stage and the once mostly secular places fade they are not places I want to go anymore.

That, my friend, cannot be blamed on islam, but on the west which meddled in and destroyed the region.

Perhaps your interpretation of Islam is mostly peaceful and you maybe believe in separation of church and state and great for you, but I think is naive to think that all or even the vast majority who haven't had the chances and education you have agree..

Yes they do. Otherwise they wouldn't have immigrated to the west, Asia, and South America. Of course we are not talking about refugees, but the millions of muslims who have immigrated to non muslim countries in the previous decades. Even here in Japan, there is a muslim expat community that is huge, maybe even larger than the english speaking community.

This is the trouble with these religious based ideas.. No one has the correct answer, there is no way to check it

fair enough. Then lets dispense with presumptions and stop arguing since like you said, no one has the correct answer.

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"That, my friend, cannot be blamed on islam, but on the west which meddled in and destroyed the region."

Can death for apostates, the appalling treatment of women, the barbaric treatment of homosexuals and shocking levels of censorship and be blamed on western intervention?

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Who said I blamed just Islam, just that some of its tenants, depending on interpretation can be dangerous, and it's certainly a factor, one I don't think can be denied.

UAE, case in point rape victim sentenced to jail.. Bangladesh honor killings and so on.. Anymore great places for women you want to suggest?

Female head of state doesn't nescessarily mean women's rights are getting attention, politics is politics and often they are daughters of previous leaders and political families. And America... They are their own big mess.. But we aren't talking about them today :-)

And the Muslims who, other than the radicalized ones clearly, who live in the west in mostly secular democracies tend to be of a far more liberal interpretation of Islam.. So I'm not sure what the point is there, I think it actually backs up what I'm saying..

And the last line.. What I meant was there is no arbitrator for the interpretation of your version of Islam vs any other group we could name... Not that there are no facts about reality we shouldn't be able to agree on.

Hurting people is bad, why, it hurts and people don't want to be hurt, so don't do it. Easy right, and usually it takes a bad idea to make people do bad things, right back to the original point, I don't think there can be any argument that some interpretations of religion can propagate bad ideas..

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Can death for apostates, the appalling treatment of women, the barbaric treatment of homosexuals and shocking levels of censorship and be blamed on western intervention?

Can death for apostates- as opposed to invading another country and killing its people randomly? Not to mention drone strikes...

the appalling treatment of women- again, depends on the country and not all of them are muslim. Look at southeast asia where young girls are prostituted. Much worse than a headscarf, I'd say.

the barbaric treatment of homosexuals - Like Russia? Hasn't Russia made homosexuality illegal based on the Orthodox church? What exactly more have the muslim countries done?

shocking levels of censorship- Talk to chelsea manning, edward snowden, or julian assange about US, EU, UK levels of censorship.

Who said I blamed just Islam, just that some of its tenants, depending on interpretation can be dangerous, and it's certainly a factor, one I don't think can be denied.

That's a far cry from blaming islam, so we are in agreement there.

And the Muslims who, other than the radicalized ones clearly, who live in the west in mostly secular democracies tend to be of a far more liberal interpretation of Islam.. So I'm not sure what the point is there,

My point is that Islam can coexist with the west and that it is not a barbaric religion as some here have tried to say. The evidence, is like you said- the Muslims who, other than the radicalized ones clearly, who live in the west in mostly secular democracies tend to be of a far more liberal interpretation of Islam- are the proof of that.

Hurting people is bad, why, it hurts and people don't want to be hurt, so don't do it. Easy right, and usually it takes a bad idea to make people do bad things, right back to the original point, I don't think there can be any argument that some interpretations of religion can propagate bad ideas..

true. but I also think that can be any argument that some interpretations of other ideas as well, say democracy, can propagate bad ideas..like illegal invasions and occupations.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

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Killing people for leaving a religion is backward. Why is this barbaric phenomenon particularly common in Islamic societies?

Most of the countries with the lowest ranking for equality for women are Islamic. Why is this?

Killing people because of their sexual orientation is backward. Why is this barbaric phenomenon particularly common in Islamic societies?

Freedom of the press and being allowed to state your opinion are the signs of a civilised society. Why do Islamic societies try to get the UN to ban criticism of their beliefs?

I'm sure the people awaiting execution for apostasy, blasphemy, adultery or just saying something a theocrat dislikes would be comforted by your 'comparisons' ( this is the kind of evasion which many Muslims wince at when trying to deal with this filth honestly ). Answer the questions directly.

As I said before, your refusal to flatly condemn the barbarism which stems from barbaric Bronze Age morals is part of the problem. This stuff does not belong in the 21st century.

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Aly, try walking down a street in saudi Arabia (let alone Pakistan) minding your own business but wearing a crucifix or star of David. Or try debating with a friend at a table in a coffee shop within earshot of the locals what we are debating here. Tell me, what do you think would happen? And Im tired of "the west" being blamed for all the problems in the Islamic world. If it wasnt that lame excuse it would be something else.

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"And Im tired of "the west" being blamed for all the problems in the Islamic world. If it wasnt that lame excuse it would be something else"

To be fair, the west has been guilty of terrible behaviour in this region - propping up scumbags and starting filthy wars. However, they can't be blamed for the barbaric morals and backward worldview. Getting out of this region and allowing the people of this area to sort out what kind of societies they'd like to live in would reduce the victimhood mentality.

My pessimistic view is that if we came back in 100 years, we would still find despotic and theocratic hellholes.

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Not at all, discuss it all you want; unless its something ascinine like islam is not a religion of peace.

That is called personal perception. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean others can't do it. As you well know, not everyone in the world believes the exact same way you do and has the right to say their opinion or perception of a religious ideology as they see fit. You're going to have to learn to suck it up and deal with it when others don't see things your way. It has been the problem with Islam for centuries. And folks can say Islam is not a religion of peace if they see facts that prove that is obviously is not. There are some peaceful tenets of Islam, but there are also quite a few violent ones.

The terrorists and extremists lean towards the violent aspects and feel justified. You should be asking them why they feel justified in their actions. You're going to have to focus more on why people of Islam and saying "Islam is not a peaceful religion" instead of just, "Don't blame Islam". As Jizmo said, "You'll learn a lot more by looking inside, than you would trying to blame the outside."

More critical questioning and thinking of one's own religious belief can teach you more than just going through the motions someone tells you to do.

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