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Thousands in Pakistan rally against American over shooting

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And the White House continues to call Pakistan an "ally".

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2 important points here:

Did he or didnt he have diplomatic immunity?

A senior U.S. official has said the American man was authorized by the U.S. to carry a weapon, but that it was a “gray area” whether Pakistani law permitted him to do so.

There shouldn't be any 'gray area' either pakistani law permits foreigners to carry a weapon or not, of course if carried provided that all the legal paperwork was done.

Met a few guys that came to another country and complained that they had to hand their guns in at customs as US carry permits don't work overseas.

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Did this guy really think that he could import his American gun-totin' idiocy to another country? If he was not permitted to carry a gun he deserves to have the book thrown at him.

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The guy's name is Raymond Davis and he is not a diplomat, an official but not a diplomat.

Three months ago the Pakistani Govt banned all foreigners from carrying weapons and issued orders for all diplomatic staff to use the security personnel provided for all their outings, but, still this happened. And knowing Pakistani's they will make this issue into something else and escalate it further.

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Yes, quite a shame that the US is not appreciated enough abroad. Maybe it has something to do with fact that its official stated policy is to exploit other countries (under the guise of spreading a liberating democracy, which may look good at times, but in the end benefits and reinforces the rule of the local elite/western nations). Having said that, it ain't looking too good in the middle east/south asia at the moment, perhaps because it has become unmasked.

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Not a diplomat. Carrying a Glock - which was not legal.

That's what I got from the BBC.

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"But many questions have been left unanswered, including exactly what the American did at the U.S. Embassy and why he was carrying a gun."

Until these answers are cleared up this guy is screwed. Even AFTER they're cleared up he may be in big trouble. If the guy is indeed CIA then he's in big trouble and may be left to the Pakistani legal system (again, screwed). The US needs to clear up the aforementioned questions, fast.

WilliB: "And the White House continues to call Pakistan an "ally"."

When a whole lot of people, including other Americans, were calling GWB's desperate attempt to secure allies in 'the war on terror' (ie. illegal invasion of Iraq) and specifically the inclusion of Pakistan dubious, I didn't hear you raising any concerns. It's pretty clear that, again, the US was desperate for a show of support and the strategic positioning of Pakistan, and Pakistan wanted to look like a 'good guy'. In any case, the US almost daily bombs or fires rockets in their 'ally's' territory, and Pakistan constantly shows it is not ready to live up to the title of ally. That is to say, why on earth you guys decided to make them an ally in the first place is still beyond most of us. Good to see you start to question your buddy's thinking, though.

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I always find it interesting to see how many people say nothing about other country's laws...until one of their own gets caught in that country with their pants down. Then, all too often the criticism and knives come out against said country's laws. If you can't respect and abide by another country's laws, you shouldn't go there. Ignorance of a country's laws is no excuse (onus is on you to learn what they are), and if you get busted breaking said country's laws, at least man up to it, don't dump on anyone with 'in my country, XYZ would never happen!'), and be prepared to face the consequences.

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With emotions running this high, the Law of the Mob comes first.

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nandaka, no, why do you think that? The law of the land should come first.

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"he shot two armed men"

"An American scoundrel has killed two innocent youths"

Yeah, two innocent youths who were carrying guns.

That being said, this "diplomatic immunity" crap is, well, crap. If a foreigner in Pakistan or anywhere else is accused of a crime, he or she should be tried in a court of law in that country.

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"The law of the land should come first"

I actually agree with Sushi, lol.

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Sarge, it is possible to carry a gun and be innocent. They are not mutually exclusive. BTW, I agree wholeheartedly with everything else you wrote. First time that's happened since circa 2003. :-)

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Sushi, of course "the Law of the Land should come first". In this case however, neither American Law nor Pakistani Law can be applied. The baying voices of the fundamentalist groups who have been freely handed a great excuse for mayhem will ensure that no earthly law will be respected. Just as with the state governor who was shot by his bodyguard recently, due legal process will be derailed. At best we will get a fudge. At worst, who knows? The govt in Pakistan is even less sure of itself than certain countries in the Middle East right now. No time for idealism. The voice of the mob wants blood.

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nandaka, I think Pakistani law will be applied here. No reason to mention American law as the guy in question is reportedly not a diplomat.

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SushiSake my bad, I meant International Diplomatic agreements.

My original question still stands though. Why didn't this guy shoot at the wheels of the motorbike or at the legs of the pursuers? He must have been 100% sure that they were going to kill him with the guns they were probably waving at him. There is probably a standing rule for US citizens abroad in situations like this, especially if this guy had already been in Afghanistan or wherever: shoot first and ask questions later. Never in a million years would he have expected to be landed in this kind of a mess.

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In this case I think pakistani law will apply as the US embassy was informed that NO foreigner can carry a weapon and they need to use the provided security forces when venturing outside the Embassy(USA Territory).

So he was in possession of an illegal gun and killed 2 people = don't look good.

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Interesting to compare this incident with a very similar one next door in Afghanistan where the governor was killed when his car was rammed by a suicide bomber on a motorcycle. "Bomber kills deputy governor in south Afghanistan", ...article here about two days ago.

In a general culture of violence, and in the extreme of the moment, how much time do you have to think about where you are? I feel sympathy for the guy, but how can he expect fair and balanced treatment now?

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Sarge and Sushi, together at last! I agree with both of you.

If you can't respect and abide by another country's laws, you shouldn't g there.

Respecting and abiding the law is more of a gray area in a lawless country like Pakistan. But I suppose in that case if you go there you should expect whatever happens.

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He has the right to defend himself, but is not a diplomat. =This guy will hang. The drivers of the car may hang also. These people work in a dangerous profession and understand the risks that come with that.

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After pegging the two "attackers" he should've taken to the backstreets n done his best to get back to the embassy. Not stuck around for the law to turn up..if that is what happened.

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After pegging the two "attackers" he should've taken to the backstreets n done his best to get back to the embassy. Not stuck around for the law to turn up..if that is what happened.

Yeah, no kidding. In any third world country, when crap hits the fan, just get out of dodge ASAP. Don't go back to the house/apartment/condo. Take the next taxi you can find to the airport and GTFO! (You need to see it happen to someone to believe it, but it's true, the locals get all the benefit of any and all doubt.) Have your friends bring you the passport (if you left it behind).

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I'm a little bit peeved at that diplomatic status crap.. sure you've all heard about a president's son in NYC and in other places. Every now and then, you'll see a drunk diplo in Tokyo and when confronting this particular pipe smoking European, he shoves the passport in your face...

I would calm down on the defense of this guy.. he's done.

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Yeah, kill someone for no reason then run like a scared rabbit. The embassy is cool because there you can claim 'diplomatic immunity' even when you don't have or deserve it.

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Obviously certain ppl here would rather have seen this American shot dead by the 2 thieves he fought off. I am quite sure though that they oppose the death penalty, in most cases.

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And I guess in the USA, etc it is OK to gun down "possible" muggers, with an illegal firearm?

So far I have heard little as to what actually went down, except "possible muggers" & "possible attempted robbery". Next we will hear how the muggers are responsible for the 3rd mans death too.

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Forgot to add.

If he was defending himself why couldn't he shoot to disable the guys instead of shooting to kill.

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If he was defending himself why couldn't he shoot to disable the guys instead of shooting to kill." This may have been his only experience in shooting someone... I can honestly say, even after being in the army, I wouldn't know how to point a gun, kept my cool, and purposely shot him/her say in the knee or foot..

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The guy was basically toast when he was chosen to be the victim of a robbery. If he does nothing he's most likely dead or shot. If he does something he's most likely in legal trouble. At this point he might be asking himself if it would have been better to take his chances and eat a bullet than actually defend himself. He might get thrown under the bus to please the neanderthals in Pakistan and the radical left/anti-Americans who won't be shy about joining the Pakistanis for afternoon chants.

And you don't shoot someone in the foot. Either you shoot to kill or you don't shoot. I'm anti-gun but I'm not a complete idiot about how they're used.

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If you don't kill the gunperson = they will most likely kill you. That is a very high probability. Reason they made tasers --don't have a double barrel taser though.

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Superlib, I disagree. A 'successful shoot-to-kill makes you a murderer if your actions can't be justified. Shooting in the foot/leg is totally different.

American soldiers have made the same mistake in Iraq - shooting to take out the driver (not to mention the odd pregnant woman who got in the way) instead of the tires.

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He has the right to defend himself, but is not a diplomat. =This guy will hang. The drivers of the car may hang also. These people work in a dangerous profession and understand the risks that come with that.

Diplomatic immunity means, he won't hang. The driver of the car though, he might be in trouble. We'll see.

If he was defending himself why couldn't he shoot to disable the guys instead of shooting to kill.

Is this a joke? If you have any training at all, you know you don't shoot to wound, you shoot to kill. Theres no shooting a pistol out of someones hand, thats Hollywood. Shooting someone in the leg or arm, likewise a joke. You shoot at the center of mass. Period. As Superlib pointed out, either you shoot to kill, or you don't shoot. Theres no 3rd option.

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You guys - and the shooter mentioned in this article - are encouraging actions that will obviously create more problems than are necessary. This guy will very soon find out why shooting to kill without diplomatic immunity in a foreign land is a pretty dumb thing to do. No right to bear arms + no diplomatic immunity + murder of 2 individuals. How do you spell T.O.A.S.T?

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Molenir, I think you are confusing actions that might be necessary in a war zone with those that might be necesary in a peaceful suburban environment. The motives of the people involved are likely going to be quite different. Unlike in a battlezone, people carrying arms in a suburban environment are unlikely to be anywhere near as well trained, let alone willing to gun someone down.

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Sushi, it's difficult to debate with you since you know nothing about firearms. Most people would take that as a sign to back off and listen a bit, but with you it's the usual license to just make stuff up based on what you've seen in movies. In the end it's people with knowledge debating with someone using their imagination.

Anyone with any experience with firearms will tell you that if you pull out a gun to shoot, you shoot to kill. Your "I know what I think I know" position is as flimsy as wet tissue in the face of people who have experience. Show me any firearms expert who will tell you to take out a gun to shoot and aim at someone's leg when you have two people approaching with guns. Anyone. Find me a police manual from any police academy in the world who tells their recruits to aim to wound in a life threatening situation. Then ask yourself if you really know your head from your ass.

If you want to be the usual anti-American then just have the balls to come out and say it. Don't dance around nonsense as if you're fooling anyone. Be a man.

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Anyone with any experience with firearms will tell you that if you pull out a gun to shoot, you shoot to kill.

Anyone with firearms and common sense should know to carry one, where it is legal to do so. There are plently of people who complain about people from Pakistan(muslims) trying to impose their laws in United States, now that the shoe is on the other foot...

It seems as though he broke Pakistani law, and if he did, he will have to deal with whatever judgement Pakistani law, judges to be his punishment.

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Superlib.

The pull to shoot to kill is very much NRA propaganda.

Like I said multiple times before, LEARN what the law allows you to do under what circumstances. You might get a surprise.

Yeah, I have the heard the old argument "Better to be judged by 12 than be carried by 6." way too often and so did the courts, lawyers, Police, etc.

But back, I also say let him face the Pakistani law as he broke it. And if he has Diplomatic Immunity in Pakistan I hope he will still get nailed in the USA.

Either way the situation in Pakistan is NOT going to end well thx to him.

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They certainly have the right to be upset about it but it seems that those rallying are ignoring the fact that the men he shot were armed. Also breaking the law. If he does have diplomatic immunity there is nothing that Pakistan can do but kick him out of the country. As much as we or Pakistanis don't like it immunity is immunity and you just can't go arbitrarily revoking it on someone who in all intent purposes was defending himself. Start revoking immunity on diplomats and embassy personnel and that whole system is down the drain. Didn't also an Iranian Embassy employee once kill a British cop in London and got away with it due to immunity? Please someone jog our memories on that one. I couldn't seem to find info on it but do remember something of it. People were POed rightfully but he got away with it I believe. That's the purpose of the immunity. To let the staff avoid prosecution no matter what or who started the trouble. And if he does get charged for something if not immune is for carrying a gun only. Not for killing armed men who were out to kill him.

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Wonder why people assume that armed = out to kill? Anybody care to explain that logic?

Where is the proof that they wanted to kill him, any eye-witnesses, etc?

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The only consistency I find in the 'arguments' about this event and other discussions about guns, and gun control, is that whatever the case most of the leftys believe Americans should not be allowed to protect themselves, in theeir own homes, or when abroad.

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Yeah Zenny they could have just been Neighborhood Watch patrolling to make sure any infidels are not out driving in cars with guns.

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mikehuntez.

Lets see they had robbed another guy a few minutes ago who was NOT hurt nor killed. Still waiting for your explanation of that logic?

SolidariTea.

The pakistani goverment offered them security services when they forbade foreigners to carry guns. What goverments want is people to follow the laws and rules of the land.

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SolidariTea - " most of the leftys believe Americans should not be allowed to protect themselves, in their own homes, or when abroad."

Americans can do what they like whe they are abroad - as long as their actions lie within the laws of the country they are in.

We don't need Americans coming out spouting that - for some reason (usually because they ar American) - they are above the laws of other countries.

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SolidariTea - Americans have the right to use firearms to protect themselves in America. This article is about Pakistan, which, last time I checked, isn't part of America. Just thought you should know.

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SolidariTea.

Of course we give you the right to defend yourself home and abroad, within the limitations of the law of course.

But saying my 6-shooter is my only defense and it gives me the right to take a life(might be a father, brother, son, husband, etc) is what people are against.

There are many ways to defend and protect yourself besides a gun, like hiring a bodyguard, bullet-proof vests, etc.

BTW, do you consider the embassy employee a criminal? To me he is as he was carrying a gun illegally.

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Lets see they had robbed another guy a few minutes ago who was NOT hurt nor killed. Still waiting for your explanation of that logic?

Funny I didn't read that anywhere. What site did you get that info from? And how would this guy know that if it's true and he saw them coming at his vehicle with automatic weapons? I think I'd be on the defensive too.

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mikehuntez it posted either here or on other reports I read about the incident online. JT is not the only news-source covering it, no-one I know relies solely on JT for news..

Again how do you know they were automatic weapons. 2 guys on a motorbike wielding AK-47's? Very subtle muggers that the cops will overlook.

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no-one I know relies solely on JT for news..

But there are some posters here on JT who DO!! And they even get offended and ridicule you when you come up with news from others sources.

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Ooopss...I need to comment at the topic at hand, I've been told.

Eehhmmmm......It's not good what happened in Pakistan.

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roomtemperature.

Then they should also get offended and ridicule all the other posters that cite BBC, etc.

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Zenny

The posters I'm talking about get offended when the news from your other source shows they are wrong. It's kind of an ego thing, you know.

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roomtemperature.

Sorry, misunderstood you my bad. Apologies.

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Sorry I looked on CTV, CBC, BBC, CNN. Or did I miss Al Jizzera? Please be more specific.

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But I thought that everyone knew that if it's not reported in America, it never happened?? Am I wrong?? :-)

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From what I read the guy was driving in a small unmarked car(typical for that area)ie no diplomatic plates and no flags, he withdrew money and had stopped the car at a roundabout/traffic-circle.

There he was approached by a few motorbikes, 2 rides of which pointed handguns at him, he fired using his Glock 9mm and killed two.

His Car apparently had the rear-window shot out and multiple bullet holes in the windscreen(still undetermined if his shots or the other guys).

Apparently he got out and took evidence photos of the bodies, at that time he is reported to carry a wireless headphone/mike transceiver, which made people think he was on an assignement or possible CIA.

Which would make sense with the backup arriving fast as he would have been in radio contact.

Police said the procedure of using multiple motorbikes is common for car-theft and robberies. In neighbouring countries a similar tactic is used for asassinations.

Police think that he was observed leaving the bank and followed.

The 2 dead guys been identified as been involved in a robbery a bit earlier in the neighbourhood and also got a police record.

Got that from various articles after a google search.

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From irishtimes dot com

It said the diplomat acted in self-defence when confronted by two armed men and had every reason to believe they meant to harm him, and said arresting the diplomat was a violation of international norms and the Vienna Convention. In his initial statement, Mr Davis told police that he was chased by the two men soon after he withdrew money from a cash machine. The men approached him when he pulled over at a traffic signal and they pointed a gun at him. Mr Davis then fired at the men, a police official said. Armed robberies and carjackings are becoming more common in Pakistan, but Westerners are rarely targeted.

This news is hard to find. And it still doesn't support what Zenny said. I wonder why you Sushi can't even offer support to what he said if you know so much. Canadian and British sites also don't report this yet. So tell me what news sources should I be monitoring shmarty pantz?

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Diplomatic Immunity last I checked don't cover murder, etc.

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From Wiki:

It is possible for the official's home country to waive immunity; this tends to happen only when the individual has committed a serious crime, unconnected with their diplomatic role (as opposed to, say, allegations of spying), or has witnessed such a crime. Alternatively, the home country may prosecute the individual. Many countries refuse to waive immunity as a matter of course; individuals have no authority to waive their own immunity (except perhaps in cases of defection).

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Thank you Zenny.

If he was defending himself why couldn't he shoot to disable the guys instead of shooting to kill.

It's pretty hard to shoot to disable a moving target. People who use guns are trained to shoot to hit, i.e., shoot for the center of mass. He could very well have taken out an innocent bystander by shooting anywhere else.

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There is a Pakistani site called the news dot com dot pk and an article there giving some eye witness reports: "American Rambo’ goes berserk"

One witness says that the two motorcyclists had pistols and when one drew then Davis opened fire. He had stopped his car and was on foot. It suggests he was a trained marksman.

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Forgot to add Davis's name was released by the Islamabad Consulate while the Lahore one still refused to identify him.

He might get off on the shooting charge but the "illegal weapon posessions" charge will stick.

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The police sources said Faizan, a resident of Ravi Road, was a thorough gentleman and was carrying a licensed pistol with him.

But I thought it was illegal to carry a weapon?

"The boys were chasing the Americans on humanitarian ground as they (US officials) were fleeing from the crime scene after crushing a motorcyclist instead of shifting him to the hospital," Mahmood Khan, an eyewitness said.

Funny how an eye witness knows why they were chasing him.

The US diplomat’s car had several bullet holes in the front windscreen as the killer fired several shot from inside. Later he came out and opened more shots to ensure on-spot-death of the boys.

And why does the photos show what looks like the rear windshield to be shot out completely? This story is fishy. And it apparently happened last week. Haven't heard much about it though until this article and these other articles from Pakistan that practically has the guy guilty before proven. He better hope he has a red passport. They also claim that he is undercover Blackwater. I wonder how they know these "facts".

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Mike, where did you find that? The article I read said the incident happened in early December! The whole thing is decidedly ropey.

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Mikehuntez.

Did you read the post above that states "Pakistan made weapon possesion illegal for foreigners"?

There are many articles online including overseas sources and non-pakistani articles from the region that are fairly good and seem non-biased.

BTW, if he is only a consular staff he won't be covered by diplomatic immunity unless he was on official consulate business. This is according to the Vienna convention of 1963(see wiki) and which is followed by the USA. The Wiki(Diplomatic immunity) lists exactly who is covered and under what circumstances.

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Yes I saw wikipedia. Those sites I read seemed pretty biased. That is a result of USA not being popular in Pakistan so it's understandable. But yes you are right. If he is not a diplomat without a red diplomat passport then he is screwed. He may get away with the murder charge if it were in self defense but he won't get away with the weapons charge. He may get a big fine and expulsion from the country maybe if they don't want to risk his life in a prison.

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Diplomatic Immunity last I checked don't cover murder, etc.

Diplomatic immunity means that the person in question cannot, under any circumstances, be prosecuted for anything up to and including murder, unless the country they represent, waives immunity.

He might get off on the shooting charge but the "illegal weapon posessions" charge will stick.

See above.

BTW, if he is only a consular staff he won't be covered by diplomatic immunity unless he was on official consulate business. This is according to the Vienna convention of 1963(see wiki) and which is followed by the USA. The Wiki(Diplomatic immunity) lists exactly who is covered and under what circumstances.

The US has already stated the man has diplomatic immunity. Your blustering and posturing about this therefore is pretty much meaningless.

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Molenir.

Did you even bother to read the Wiki? If not your reply is meaningless and ill-informed.

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SushiSake: But I thought that everyone knew that if it's not reported in America, it never happened?? Am I wrong?? :-)

I think you mean to say that if an American isn't involved it never happened. My guess is that you wouldn't be here posting your comments.

And as for your comments, they mostly show your lack of knowledge about guns. I'm anti-gun, I've said so at lest 100 times here, but I'm not a complete idiot about using them. This isn't a movie. You don't shoot 2 moving targets in the leg from inside of a car. All you're doing is giving them yet another chance to shoot you. Or they simply unload their clip in panic and hit the kid walking by. Or you.

To think that you can pick a specific target on a human body while in a life threatening situation is just silly. Aim for the leg? Great. What if you hit the femoral artery? Shoot them in the foot? Yeah, let's see you do that. How about they just aim for the hands while they're moving around. Nope, no chance of collateral damage there. You just aim for that hand and bingo, a guaranteed hit.

Stick to Republican bashing. It's better for people who debate using information they think sounds right.

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So as far as I can tell there is evidence that fire was exchanged (rather than it being one-way traffic from one party), and that both sides were armed.

Okay, I really don't see a problem here. Both sides were armed, both sides fired. At the end of the day whoever is standing at the end gets to say what happened.

Personally I don't think that anyone in their right mind, armed with only a pistol, would pick a fight with two guys, probably both armed with AK47's, so I think that in this case the guy from the U.S. is innocent... or insanely stupid. Either one qualifies him for a free walk back home.

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