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Threats, jeers saturate angry health care debate

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Seems like the idiots are out full force again. This healthcare program is desperately needed by those that don't have healthcare insurance, at the same time there are aspects of it that I'd like to see dropped. I've noticed that a lot of the fear mongers... I mean protesters are eager to once again ride the old cold war/commy/USSR bandwagon of socialist agendas and yet they have nothing to offer to fix the current healthcare system woes.

Most recent ad against the program used the same old line of "higher taxes"... Not that it matters anyway since the goverment is practically running on fumes and an extremely huge credit from the last 8-16(?) years. One of the things I like about Obama's administration is they're trying to re-direct old school US thinking. The old saying goes, "If it ain't broke don't fix it..." well, the system is broke and it needs major fixing.

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“There are components of liberalism that try to paint the whole thing as right-wing paranoia,”

Maybe it would be accurate to say it's hard to hear any rational criticism of Obama's plan with all the nutcases that don't even know what the bill calls for roaming around acting like right wing paranoids.

I wouldn't call what's happening now a "debate" ... more a shouting match.

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"The images are striking: One congressman’s office defaced by a swastika, other congressmen heckled at public meetings, videos and placards likening Barack Obama to Hitler, private citizens with guns joining anti-Obama protests."

The saddest part about this is that while this is occuring people actually say OBAMA is the socialist! I'd say it's ironic, but these fools, and the fools who agree with their methods, wouldn't even know what the word means.

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Here, let me just cut to the chase and save a lot of people a lot of hunt and pecking:

But...but...the liberals had pint t-shirts.

This isn't about health care. This is sore grapes for a group of people whose sense of entitlement has eclipsed their tentative grasp on reality. I wouldn't dream of putting an Obama bumper sticker on my car or even my gravatar icon, SYF. The loonies feel there is no limit to their "free speech."

On the other hand, these "protesters" are driving moderates and independents straight into the arms of the Democratic Party.

Taka

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"The images are striking: One congressman’s office defaced by a swastika"

Frightening would be a better word. What ever happened to reasoned discourse regarding the issues?

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This is remenisent of Richard Nixon's hulagans.

These anti-health care protesters are just so against their way that they'd do damn near anything to stop true debate. < :-)

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I really don't know why Americans are so against Health Care. I am all for it. It's gotta be better than what we have now which isn't much.

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This is getting rather out of hand, no?

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Taka: "On the other hand, these "protesters" are driving moderates and independents straight into the arms of the Democratic Party."

Bang on.

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Farmboy, it's not even a shouting match. It's just shouting

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Unfortunately complete freedom of speech also allows for freedom of stupid.

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“You’ll find on both ends of the divide — the political left and political right — the more extreme elements have completely different ideological viewpoints, but they are identical on imagery,” Mahoney said. “They use Nazi, Hitler, terrorist.”

Yep.

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timorborder: What ever happened to reasoned discourse regarding the issues?

It was thrown out sometime when Bush was in office. I think it happened right about the time people decided that Bush was so evil they could just make up anything they wanted and someone would be there to back them up. When Bush was right he was wrong, and when Bush was wrong he was wrong. We're seeing that same mentality from the anti-Obama crowd. The actual issue is meaningless, some people are against Obama 100% of the time on 100% of the issues just as we had with the anti-Bush crowd. The odd thing is that no one bothered to question the practice until Obama came into office.

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Why don't they just finish writing up the bill (there is still no finalized version), pass it and then all that are against it will have to live with it and try to get it undone in the future. This is of course if this un-finalized bill is so good. This way we won't have to watch the truly bad way in which they are trying to sell the public. They have been incredible bad, heck a junior sales guy at a small IT company can do better than them.

they hardly need bipartisan support, so just pass it. What are they so concerned about?

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I invoke Godwin's Law

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One pleasant surprise (and a welcomed one at that) is the apparent agreement on this board that things (can't call it a debate) are getting a bit much.

I tend to agree that the health care issue has become a proxy for other issues such as Obama being a black man (why else the sign wishing death to his family), sour grapes at loosing the election, or lord knows what else.

Whatever health care plan does emerge it will be flawed because the competing interests will never reconcile. If the GOP had reformed health care it would have been flawed for the same reason.

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The odd thing is that no one bothered to question the practice until Obama came into office.

Questioned it? This is from the crowd that cheered when a shoe was thrown at Bush. The right wing fringe is just that fringe. The crowd that cheered the shoe thrower posted links to a computer game so they could join in on the fun. Im my opinion the real people that really lowered the level on civil discourse are the ones that could not refer to any Republican policy or Republicans themselves without including the word "dolt" or similar sentiments in a post the past 8 years.

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One pleasant surprise (and a welcomed one at that) is the apparent agreement on this board that things (can't call it a debate) are getting a bit much." It has gone way over, and I will accuse both camps - left and right, of this. Neither one is any more guilty than the other. The Swaztickar, for all we know, could be a hoax with a person from the left.. It has happened before, but the idiot with the sign about killing the prez and his family deserves the chair!

I think Obama being black has a lot to do with the opposition, but the accusations of such are assisting the problem, not helping it. But, as for the posters with him being made into a Hitler and the jokes or recent days, well, too bad. Other presidents had this happen to them and my feelings are he has to suck it up. The opposition because he is black is just as bad those saying give him a pass because he's black. They have no put out a final bill saying exactly what is going to be done, how it is going to be put into play, all we are hearing is about those 50Mil that don't have insurance and that is why this must be done. Well, there are a lot of homeless people, should start giving out free houses? there are those living in rural areas without transportation, should we start giving out free vehicles? There are a lot of Americans who are skimping on their food to make it last, why aren't we touching that issue?

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And lies. Don't forget lies. (Who do I have to kill to get on a death panel anyway?)

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And lies. Don't forget lies. (Who do I have to kill to get on a death panel anyway?)" In issues like this, lies usually stem from mis-information as well as not getting the information out there properly. If you are talking about rationing - a lot of countries do ration and from experience, the US government's like Military medicine rations too! The death panels. A few countries with nationalized health care have them. Japan is one of them. It is not too far fetched to believe there wouldn't be, and in some cases it actually makes sense.

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Jeers I can deal with, but protesters aremed to the teeth? CNN: Video from KNXV shows the man standing with other protesters, with the rifle slung over his right shoulder, a handgun in a holster on his left hip, and a bullet clip in his back pocket.

The same protester told KNXV separately, "I'm exercising my rights as an American in Arizona."

The protester was among a dozen other demonstrators carrying unconcealed guns outside the Obama event.

Hancock, who said he was packing a 9-millimeter Beretta pistol, added that Phoenix police had known about the group's intent to protest while carrying guns.

"They are the ones standing a few feet away from us" at Monday's protest, Hancock said. "Oftentimes, the citizenry are better armed than law enforcement -- they need us on their side."

Arizona law has nothing in the books regulating assault rifles, and only requires permits for carrying concealed weapons. So despite the man's proximity to the president, there were no charges or arrests to be made, according to Phoenix police.

Methinks a revolution hath begun!

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The thing about the people showing up at health care armed with guns don't realize is that with health care reform, they could probably get ExtenZe far cheaper, eliminating their psychological need to carry firearms around.

But...ignorant is now a "right" in America.

Sail,

Your post really made me laugh. Yep, those damn liberals posted links on the internet and called him names. That is definitely of the same caliber as showing up to see the president armed or carrying signs wishing his children dead.

Yep, you win the prize for victim-of-the-day, today, my friend.

Taka

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Taka,

Scroll down to the third picture and get back to me.

http://antiprotester.blogspot.com/2007/03/true-face-of-antiwar-movement.html

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Sail,

So...you have one picture over 2 years old versus a 400% increase in death threats against the president.

Shooting for the weekly prize in victimhood, are we (at least I'm prompt)?

Taka

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So...you have one picture over 2 years old versus a 400% increase in death threats against the president.

Your going to swallow that claim based on this?

US President Barack Obama is the target of more than 30 potential death threats a day and is being protected by an increasingly over-stretched and under-resourced Secret Service, according to a new book.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/5967942/Barack-Obama-faces-30-death-threats-a-day-stretching-US-Secret-Service.html

Please Taka,

Give me something more credible than an ex-secret service agent out to make a big buck for himself by this claim.

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skip: "Neither one is any more guilty than the other. The Swaztickar, for all we know, could be a hoax with a person from the left.. It has happened before, but the idiot with the sign about killing the prez and his family deserves the chair!"

So... no side is more guilty than the other, but a guy on one side deserves the chair, huh, skip? And those against because he is black are no worse than those giving him a pass because he's black? So... what about the majority that simply think he'll make a good president, regardless of colour? or is everything so 'black and white' for you? Dude, it's quite clear that one side of this IS indeed guiltier than the other, and even the Republicans on this thread are in agreement that things with the radical right have gotten out of hand. I don't see anyone on here talking about the 'radical left' (except sailwind playing the victim, as Taka points out, and you suggesting that perhaps a Democrat painted the swastika as a hoax).

Come on, bud. Carrying loaded guns as a show around presidential events, making signs calling for the death of the president and his family, swastikas.... dude, this is WELL beyond reasonable, and there is nothing from the opposite side except for calls for more rational behaviour (can't call it debate in the slightest at this point). Aside from your hypothetical Democrat swastika painter, can you point out where all the radical Left-wingers are calling for someone's death and what not over this issue?

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sailwind: "Give me something more credible than an ex-secret service agent out to make a big buck for himself by this claim."

Yeah, because your claims have been the bar for reasoning for so long... haha! Seriously, bud, since the election last November you've been playing the victim and making off the wall allusions for some time. Your comments on this thread are no exception.

"The crowd that cheered the shoe thrower posted links to a computer game so they could join in on the fun."

Yeah, a 'game' where you could throw shoes at the man who is responsible for so much death and carnage based on lies, as opposed to openly calling for the death of the president's family, carrying automatic weapons, painting swastikas, and other hate and death threats because Obama wants all Americans to be covered under a health plan. Hmmm....

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my opinion the real people that really lowered the level on civil discourse are the ones that could not refer to any Republican policy or Republicans themselves without including the word "dolt" or similar sentiments in a post the past 8 years.

LOL! And while we're at it, let's really pretend that the largely well-reasoned and non-threatening criticism of failed Republican policies provides the justification for angry right-wingers lowering the level by several rungs further. What planet do these doltish conservatives live on?

Anyway, the sane segment of the American population is witness to these nutcases exercising their free right to make complete asses of themselves. Like immature little kids who want attention.

The problem will come when the impact of just showing their guns will wear off, and a few of them are going to want to ratchet up things a bit more. And their foolish apologists will somehow again find a left-winger to blame everything on.

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Sweet.

Now Sailwind has moved on to attacking the messenger instead of even trying to refute the message. If anything says, "Taka, you're on the right track," that does.

But hey, just for fun, let's just take the Sailwind's word over a former secret service agent. Well then, what about this instead:

The Secret Service warned the Obama family in mid October that they had seen a dramatic increase in the number of threats against the Democratic candidate, coinciding with mrs palin's attacks.

ruh-roh raggy.

Details of the spike in threats to Mr Obama come as a report last week by security and intelligence analysts STRATFOR, warned that he is a high risk target for racist gunmen. It concluded: "Two plots to assassinate Obama were broken up during the campaign season, and several more remain under investigation. We would expect federal authorities to uncover many more plots to attack the president that have been hatched by white supremacist ideologues."

So now it's 1 lone secret service agent with an axe to grind and a book to sell (For whom Sailwind conveniently accuses with no evidence, stay classy, Sail), PLUS the security and intelligence agency, STRATFOR who are besmirching the good name of gun-toting, Obama's-children's-death-wanting conservatives.

The horror of it all. But wait...THERE'S MORE!!!!

The latest controversy centered on a depiction of Obama in the cross hairs of a rifle used that appeared on the cover of Georgia's Roswell Beacon newspaper. The controversy focused on the image, though the story, which included interviews with several white supremacists threatened by Obama's candidacy, reflected a deeper reality.

Thomas Stevenson, a carpenter who lives near Atlanta, told the newspaper, "Some idiot out there's going to put a bullet in that silver-tongued devil and then there'll be a race war. There are some in our movement who are preparing for war, [even] praying for it."

Of course, that was 1 year ago. I'm sure all those folk have mellowed out now that Pres. Obama actually won the election. Why would there be any sour grapes?

As they say in the Army, Sail. I'm tracking.

Taka

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Where I draw the line is when these Liberals start arming themselves with guns. When Hillary was campaigning she went hunting to try to garner the NRA vote --> I would have grabbed that gun right out of her cold damn hands and said "you don't deserve a gun"

No way! -Not on my watch.

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"Free health care is a sign of ( civilization )"

Health care is not free. Someone has to pay for it.

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Sarge; The majority paid for in taxes bythe wealthy, like myself. I do not begrudge my money spent on this fantastic service, who treatrich and poor equally. I am proud ofthe mant thousands of Pounds i have spent on the NHS. American shoulkd realise that to profit from ill people is wrong morally.

I get free medical carein every EU country, and by god i feel proud of that fact.

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I would have grabbed that gun right out of her cold damn hands and said "you don't deserve a gun"

Badsey that is rich. Who gave you the authority to decide which American citizen benefits from the American Constitution and who doesn't?

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Interesting Essay

I agree with all of it. Pretty balanced and a reality check also in the comparision photos of the protests agaisnt Obama's policies and Bush's.

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=621

But then again it could just be my "sour grapes" showing.

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Well smith, long before there was a gun debate, people would normally bring guns to events such as this. Yes, the person who made a threat to Obama's family does deserve a chair. If he just threatened the prez due to politics, but threatening a man's family does deserve him getting juiced. I'd call it a form of self defense.

As for the Swastikers, well, I've seen and heard too many hoaxes really to make a statement on that. You'd have to be either very dumb, crazy, or planted to bring such a sign.

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YES!!!

I won a coke!

I told a co-worker Sailwind would go with "liberal media conspiracy."

In my best John Stewart voice, "Nailed it!"

And...hey...um, so we're no longer going with the unsubstantiated factless "he made it up to sell books" theory? Your boy had no issue with it. That's kind of contradicting yourself when you use it as evidence.

And let's just take a closer look at your little essay, Sail.

Were any protesters ever arrested or questioned for displaying threatening messages about President Bush at a protest? And the answer is: No, not as far as I could tell.

Well...I'm looking outside as I type by the window and you know what, the moon is the size of a nickel...AS FAR AS I CAN TELL!

ll: But wait, THERE'S MORE!!!

In the very few instances that I could uncover, the incident was either misconstrued by the media...

That is absolutely not fact. That's opinion presented as fact. Now where have I seen that? Oh yeah, when you tried to claim a retired secret service agent was lying in order to sell more books! Speaking of which, boy, I bet you'd like someone to treat YOUR service like that, now wouldn't you Sail (actually, I think you might)?

Taka

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Apparently President Obama, Nancy Pelosi and the liberals haven't read the Constitution. It says:

"provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare"

That means the government provides the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corp, not health care.

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Sarge,

look up the word welfare, it may help you understand.

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Sarge - remind me again who said the Constitution was "just a Goddammed piece of paper"?

And since when does "General Welfare" mean "Nothing but Military Force"?

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Conservatives Showing Their True Colors!

Mahoney said he was impressed by the backgrounds of the angry citizens - onservative activist, the Rev Patrick Mahoney of the Christian Defense Coalition

/

Matthew Spalding, director of the conservative Heritage Foundation’s Center for American Studies, said Democratic leaders should not dismiss the surge of anger as an extremist-fringe phenomenon.

Not the fringe, interesting. Just how mainstream conservative is this kind of hatred?

Sailwind said:

Questioned it? This is from the crowd that cheered when a shoe was thrown at Bush.

It seems like every thread this guy has to bring up the former president. Give it a rest. Ever notice that the ones with some phony made up syndrome are the first to accuse others of having it?

Many conservatives agree that the depth of anger is unusual, but insist that it is understandable as well...

I can't understand it at all but I do understand how conservatives find it understandable. How could any conservative find a "depth of anger" understandable that includes "a man with a sign reading, “Death To Obama, Death To Michelle And Her Two Stupid Kids,” swastikas, guns around presidential appearances and a host of other threats against the president and others that disagree with them? Oh and this ilk call themselves patriots.

African-American congressman David Scott, whose Smyrna, Ga., office outside Atlanta was defaced with a spray-painted swastika, said he also has received mail in recent days using racial slurs.

If the conservatives are using swastikas then they are claiming it as their symbol. Sailwind says they are the fringe but the conservative leadership says, " should not dismiss the surge of anger as an extremist-fringe."

"There’s a sense that our country is at a great turning point" (Matthew Spalding, a director of the conservative Heritage Foundation’s Center) - the things that pass for greatness in conservative's eyes is simply astonding.

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Sarge,

promote the general welfare

Doh! Damn those real meanings of words.

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Taka,

Enjoy your coke and a giggle.

You said in reference to Bush.

Your post really made me laugh. Yep, those damn liberals posted links on the internet and called him names. That is definitely of the same caliber as showing up to see the president armed or carrying signs wishing his children dead.

I counter with a picture showing that wasn't the case.

You countered with;

So...you have one picture over 2 years old versus a 400% increase in death threats against the president.

I countered that your basing the %400 increase claim from a book. I read "Chariot of The Gods" when I was younger. It claimed that UFO's visited ancient civilizations and that was the reason we advanced. A book could claim anything I want a better source sorry.

As far as the essay it pretty much nailed it when it came to your claim that I could only find one picture two years about the 'civility' of the left.

And the only reason I’m publishing the essay is that many Obama supporters — to my astonishment — now claim that Bush was never threatened at protests. Before we can have a rational discussion on this topic, we need to have a shared factual basis. The evidence below will establish that basis.

If you truly, truly cared about presidents’ lives being threatened, you would be just as incensed by people threatening Bush’s life at protests as you are about (the far less frequent instances of) Obama’s life being threatened at protests.

Your not very incensed of the 43 pictures he offers. Why am I not suprised.

As far as media the essay nailed that also.

I contend that the media is aggressively reporting on, highlighting and pursuing any and all possible threats to President Obama — and even hints of threats — but they purposely glossed over, ignored or failed to report similar threats to President Bush. Why? I believe it is part of an ideological bias: most mainstream networks and newspapers tried their best during the Bush administration to portray the anti-war movement as mainstream and moderate; whereas now they are trying to portray the anti-tax and anti-health-care-bill protesters as extremists and as fringe kooks. To achieve these goals, they essentially suppressed any mentions of the violent signage (including threats to Bush) at anti-war rallies, but have highlighted anything that could even conceivably be construed as a threat at anti-Obama events.

You went further than that you call anti-health-care-bill protesters uneducated also. A little topping on the cake from TPM????

I stand by my opinion. The left is far more responsible for the corrosive atmosphere our politics have taken. The left feigns whines when they are faced with the results of their tactics when it is directed AT THEM now.

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Sail,

O.K. We're tracking. You stand by your opinions and I stand by mine that your opinions and the opinions of those that agree with you are often presented as fact (when they absolutely are not) and that the majority of them stem from your inability to come to terms with not getting your way.

Taka

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IvanCoughalot ( ahem ) - Remind me again who claimed that a certain president said that the Constitution was "just a Godammed piece of paper" with no proof? And since when does the Constitution say that the government must provide health care for everyone?

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who claimed that a certain president said that the Constitution was "just a Godammed piece of paper" with no proof?

George W Bush said that many times.

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RoughGuy - Prove it.

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Proof for Sarge (apologies to TokyoRoughGuy): http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2005/12/09/bush-constitution-just-a-goddamned-piece-of-paper/ http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7779.shtml http://www.rense.com/general69/paper.htm http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2005/12/13/bush_constitution_just_a_goddamned_piece

These links are but a few among many others.

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Dude, according to your own link, "If the report is true..."

You believe what you want, Dude. But back to the topic of ObamaCare - do you really think that's going to fly?

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Sarge, that's what made Bush the greatest President ever.

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The United States becomes the Untied States. How about reassigning just a little bit of the military/defense spending budget to healthcare? Everyone in the U.S. could have free (or at least very cheap) healthcare before too long...

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I do believe "ObamaCare" is going to happen in some shape or form. It's what America wants; it's one of the many reasons we elected Obama. The challenge for Obama now is making sure the American public is given the facts of the Senate/House bills, unfettered by radical, emotional garbage spewed by the Republicans to "fire up" their ever-diminishing supporters. These "supporters" have simply chosen to hate Obama, not for his policies, but for his color, or his party, or simply for sour grapes at losing the election to him. Once Americans have the facts (which have been available online for quite some time, now), I can easily see overwhelming support for the new health care plan. Then, all the trash about "government supported abortions", "public taxes for illegal immigrants' health care", and "death panels" can finally be seen as Republican lies; in fact, these things were disproven within a day of being said in the first place, just like the ridiculous "birther" movement. Clear the garbage, look at the facts, and get ready for vastly improved health care in America under President Obama's tenure.

Another challenge is the transparent attempt by the Republicans to push Obama into acting unilaterally (i.e. with only the Democrats). Inarguably, the Repub tactic is to make Obama pass legislation without the Republicans so the Repubs can cry "Despotism! Dictatorship!" for the 2010 elections. Again, typical Republican bad defense and lack of offense, but still a public relations concern.

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What a militant State Barack Obama went to visit. Arizonites have unlimited firepower, they have every type of machine gun you can think of.

I was thinking about buying an Uzi 9mm for $150 at one of those Arizona gun shows, but changed my mind because automatics are illegal in California. I think they should make a Federal law banning guns brought to Presidential debates. Most of these vicious people who went to the rallies are really workers from wealthy medical corporations, health insurance companies, Hospital's, and there lobbist.

I believe most Americans want a US. govt. option for health care, its just the greedy health insurance companies and for profit Hospitals that don't want a national health care system option ran by the government.

I agree with Obama, free enterprise and more options for Americans, including govt. health care is democratic and freedom of choice.

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I find it funny how concerned the media suddenly are about proper behaviour. When GWB was the target, anything was OK, including posters showing Bush as Hitler, as a monkey, straw image burning, rioting, movies and jokes about presidential assassination.... that was all just vigorous protest and freedom of speech.

Now, suddenly, the Obama swooning press corps has turned into Miss Manners.

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"I also think the conservatives are frustrated politically. They’re worried about helping people pay for their healthcare and caring about others than themnselves"

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