Trump's plan for Ukraine comes into focus: Territorial concessions but NATO off the table

Common sense, NATO Membership is simply not possible, because at some point it'll end up becoming the world's most heavily armed country and once again a proxy force to be used by the globalists against Russia.

Ukraine needs peaceful relations with all its neighbors, declaring Russia an enemy visa via NATO Membership ensures the conflict will restart in the future. Rebuilding Ukraine requires neutrality, otherwise too risky!

EU in chaos, credit ratings downgrades taking place in many major countries, political realignment occurring rapidly, thus $appetite for war with Russia quickly fading.

Predictably awful plan by Trump: allow Putin to keep the territory he has stolen, and suffer no repercussions for the murders/rapes/torture/child abductions/destruction that he has caused.

And, of course, embolden him to do it all again in the future.

HopeSpringsEternalToday 07:51 pm JST

and once again a proxy force to be used by the globalists against Russia.

No matter how many times the Kremlin apologists call it a proxy war, it will not magically become one. It is a unilateral war of conquest and vanity by Putin, and Putin alone.

HopeSpringsEternalToday 07:53 pm JST

Ukraine needs peaceful relations with all its neighbors, declaring Russia an enemy

Russia declared itself an enemy by stealing Crimea, then later conducting a full-scale invasion complete with war crimes.

Ukraine wants peaceful relations, but this is rather difficult when the dictatorship next door decides to attack you.

NATO Membership ensures the conflict will restart in the future

No, it doesn't. It ensures Putin won't attack in the future.

Ukraine's now so broke, they won't be able to afford a standing military with any real capability anyway, making neutrality & peacekeepers far more $practical.

2% of GPD budget military requirement for NATO makes no financial sense, as Ukraine needs to rebuild its economy!

Zelensky could never be trusted with NATO Membership, proven himself unreliable and with poor judgment, corrupt, and tried desperately for years to get NATO directly involved in this conflict.

Many European countries would oppose any Membership madness for the globalist puppets in Kiev, no chance, not-withstanding Trump and his opposition!

Ukraine lost all its leverage, US top general at the time, general Milley was right, end of 2022 was best time for Ukraine to negotiate, after successful summer campaign. It's been all downhill since, Ukraine's a failed state now.

Losers don't do too well in peace settlements.

HopeSpringsEternalToday 08:22 pm JST

Zelensky could never be trusted with NATO Membership

Putin could never be trusted with a ceasefire, unless backed by NATO membership for Ukraine.

Analysts and former national security officials voice grave doubts Trump can fulfill such a pledge because of the conflict's complexity.

Analysts and former national security officials = the three stooges. Can’t won’t and don’t trust anything these warmongers say. They don’t want it to stop. That’s the fact Jack.

Why a serious peacekeeping force is needed, along with carrots & sticks to ensure peace is maintained. It needs to be in everyone's interests to maintain the peace!

there is a long standing agreement with russia that ukraine would never join nato, so russia would not be completely surrounded by nato, all pointing arms at russia.

it’s a fundamental pillar in the russian position.

the cold war never ended in the minds of the cia.

russian and the u.s. are very much alike now. people don’t like other people just like them.

both oligarchies with vast natural resources, large nuclear arsenals, complex and wide intelligence infrastructure engaged in misinformation, large military-industrial complex, dominance of industries by only a few wealthy competitors, incestuous government and industry relations, financial corruption in politics, alliances to their side of the dodgeball line.

Again

But Trump may find Putin unwilling to engage, analysts and former U.S. officials said

notice a pattern? These so called pros have either been wrong or lying about Putin since day one. Boggles how so many can put faith in the Biden war group.

There will be no ceasefire or frozen conflict. Moscow is not going to be deceived Minsk-style again.

Any settlement will be on Moscow's terms -they are winning and Putin is in the driver's seat. But this is bigger than Ukraine, which is well on its way to failed-rump-buffer state status and whose fate is irrelevant in the bigger picture.

The wider solution is addressing the wider security architecture, not just in Europe but the world, and taking into account Moscow's critical zones of influence and national security interests, which must be respected; i.e. you don’t get to use Russia’s regional backyard as your personal sandbox, which would theoretically affect Moscow's partners tool. IIn other words, it’s an actual codification of a new and real “Rules Based Order” rather than the fictive one presently used by Western neocons to justify a lawless form of modern imperialism.

today Trump has a plan, after yesterday the media claiming he doesn’t. How odd.

Elements of the proposals would likely face pushback from Zelenskyy,

do we care? He gets what he gets by now, he’s in no position of strength to say/do anything about it.

FizzBitToday  08:38 pm JST

Analysts and former national security officials voice grave doubts Trump can fulfill such a pledge because of the conflict's complexity.

Analysts and former national security officials = the three stooges. Can’t won’t and don’t trust anything these warmongers say. They don’t want it to stop. That’s the fact Jack.

Exactly!!! Whole reason I joined JT was to shine on a light on the madness. Trump's been the whole time, this played out exactly as expected, Ukraine's been destroyed for this useless NATO Membership 'Quest'

For those of us who were SO worried about nuclear escalation, this peace process can't happen fast enough, and Ukraine can never again be used as a proxy force!

as expected by a trump administration so far:

cede large parts of the country to Russia

and

NATO membership for Ukraine off the table.

is that how a "deal maker" and self claimed "tough guy" deals with a dictator?

Trump has bigger fish to fry, specifically ensuring Iran does not become a nuclear weapons state and re-directing US to focus on deterring potential Chinese aggression.

Ukraine war has been both destroying US military readiness and global deterrence to achieve above, while enabling Iran, China and NK and their coordination with Russia.

Russia knows that a 'Revolution of Indignity' could be in the making, where Western Ukrainians overthrow Zelensky and put in place someone who will do what Zelensky campaigned on doing, acting in the best interests of Ukraine rather than Washington, becoming the interface between the EU and BRICS with good relations with both.

Russia remembers how the perception of a war that 'could have been won' lay at the heart of Germany starting WW2 and so such a forced end that Trump is proposing merely sets the stage for a reprise of Obama's Folly whenever Washington thinks it could successfully seize control of the agricultural and industrial heartland of what used to be a united peaceful Ukraine.

Zelensky's got no future in Ukraine. Ukraine like most countries, needs optionality and that means good relations with all. Why burn bridges economically and risk seeing your country high-jacked by globalists?

Even joining NATO entails huge risk, who needs it? NATO has enough nukes already, their security is assured, but their proxy 'recruits' not so much!

At the end of the day who will (try) to make the final decision is the big US military industrial complex, as usual. Too many interests for the usual Wall Street lobbies. They are the ones who started this conflict, and until they procure another regular stream of income (Ukraine was around $102 billions supply of weapons), they will not allow President elect Trump to go anywhere. And don’t forget the $6,2 billions order in South Korea for F-15K which now is a question mark. Washington is a panic mode already.

Trump could give a XXXX about NEOCONS and their highly profitable wars, ran on ending them and means it. Arm sales to promote peace thru strength, that's OK!

There's a new Sherrif in town, so Ukraine, NATO and everyone else better get used to it, as the business of US originated "war" is rapidly winding down!

Let's look at this coldly and honestly:

Ukraine is not our ally and never has been. We have no obligation to defend it.

The war was provoked by American neocons who deliberately ignored Putin's red lines about NATO expansion and western meddling in his backyard spelt out consistently since at least 2008.

Ukraine has only survived so far in this fight thanks to the ludicrous amount of money and materiel we've pumped into it.

The southern and eastern provinces of Ukraine are Russian in language and sympathy. They were poorly treated, and when the Ukrainian nationalists launched the American-backed 2014 coup d'etat against Yanukovych, they unsurprisingly took it as a signal to break away, knowing that the new regime would be coming in hard against them.

In the real world, when countries cannot continue an armed struggle, they sue for peace and sometime have to ceded territory. France ceded Alsace and Lorraine in 1871; Germany ceded a third of its territory in 1945; Japan ceded its whole empire and the Kuriles in 1945, etc.

In conclusion: we either stop this senseless slaughter now or continue to fund an endless bloodbath which will result of the destruction of the whole Ukrainian nation. A hard choice, but we live in the real world, and we must deal with messy realities.

Important to observe certain countries have given up territory under duress previously. For example, Serbia was forced to give up a large amount of territory down the barrel of a US gun (which Russia opposed). So, this is hardly unprecedented. A certain US ally is a serial annex-acquirer of land from their neighbours, so that is hardly unheard of either and shouldn't unnecessarily colour the path to peace by occurring.

Indeed, Kyiv has generally been treated far better than the Palestinians by all quarters, so they don't have much to complain or 'pushback' about. And proxies can be discarded.

The more relevant issue is securing a grander reconfiguration of the entire broader regional security architecture suitable for Moscow and its partners. This is the challenge for Trump's peace agenda: let's hope it can be done.

NATO membership was never on the table. Fine. Take it off. Then when peace happens, Ukraine can join NATO a few months later ... er ... post-Trump and NATO can take back all the land trying to be stolen by Russia.

Russia needs to start sending 10% of their oil profits to Ukraine to fund rebuilding for the next 20-40 yrs as well.

What, basically the deal that was drafted a few months into the conflict that was then scuppered by UK/USA interference?

While the MIC raked in profits Ukrainians and Russians needlessly died.

deanzaZZRToday 01:40 am JST

What, basically the deal that was drafted a few months into the conflict that was then scuppered by UK/USA interference?

It's good that we have the apologist reminding us of the Istanbul inanity regularly. The evidence is as follows:

russia was still in shelling distance of Karkhiv at the time of the fantasy.

Animal Putin has never backed down without being forced.

Ukrainians don't believe they have been betrayed by the US/UK. Polls bear this out.

Notice that essentially all the plans require increased arms for Kyiv. The dogs have caught the truck and figured out that they have to let it continue on as normal.

JJEDec. 4 08:47 pm JST

There will be no ceasefire or frozen conflict. Moscow is not going to be deceived Minsk-style again.

Any settlement will be on Moscow's terms -they are winning and Putin is in the driver's seat. But this is bigger than Ukraine, which is well on its way to failed-rump-buffer state status and whose fate is irrelevant in the bigger picture.

You make a lot of pronouncements that aren't covered by the spending limits on the body credit cards.

The wider solution is addressing the wider security architecture, not just in Europe but the world, and taking into account Moscow's critical zones of influence and national security interests, which must be respected; i.e. you don’t get to use Russia’s regional backyard as your personal sandbox, which would theoretically affect Moscow's partners tool. IIn other words, it’s an actual codification of a new and real “Rules Based Order” rather than the fictive one presently used by Western neocons to justify a lawless form of modern imperialism.

While I can't say for certain exactly how much Trump will disgrace himself, no previous president would have handed out goodies for animal behavior.

Important to observe certain countries have given up territory under duress previously.

More like russia has stolen land previously. This is well known.

For example, Serbia was forced to give up a large amount of territory down the barrel of a US gun (which Russia opposed).

Russia actually endorsed Kosovo's independence with the establishment of KFOR. There will be no such endorsement of russia's disgraces.

So, this is hardly unprecedented. A certain US ally is a serial annex-acquirer of land from their neighbours, so that is hardly unheard of either and shouldn't unnecessarily colour the path to peace by occurring.

Israel's neighbors have issues with being a peace with that country and the territories involved are minuscule. In any event, this just highlights the parallel between Bibi and Putin.

Indeed, Kyiv has generally been treated far better than the Palestinians by all quarters, so they don't have much to complain or 'pushback' about. And proxies can be discarded.

More have been killed in and more has been stolen from Ukraine.

The more relevant issue is securing a grander reconfiguration of the entire broader regional security architecture suitable for Moscow and its partners. This is the challenge for Trump's peace agenda: let's hope it can be done.

Again, your belief that Trump will fully grab his ankles might come to pass, but we can't say for certain yet. He does have his family and party's reputation to consider.

“Pushback from Zelensky” ? He is finished, losing relevance by the day.

Trump’s plan is excellent.

Don't forget, Russia attacked Ukraine.

There was no plan for Ukraine to attack Russia or to join NATO, ever. Now there will be AND as many other border countries as can will want to join both NATO and the EU ASAP. Putin really screwed up in his plans to put the USSR back with Russian leadership. Soon the Russia-aligned -Stans will want to join NATO too, for their own protection.

Trump will have his tongue so far up ... er... somewhere. I guess that's one way to peace.

Russia does not need Trumpyclown to end this war..

Stay out of this, pathetic clown..

Lord Dartmouth - well done and worth repeating!

Let's look at this coldly and honestly:

Ukraine is not our ally and never has been. We have no obligation to defend it.

The war was provoked by American neocons who deliberately ignored Putin's red lines about NATO expansion and western meddling in his backyard spelt out consistently since at least 2008.

Ukraine has only survived so far in this fight thanks to the ludicrous amount of money and materiel we've pumped into it.

The southern and eastern provinces of Ukraine are Russian in language and sympathy. They were poorly treated, and when the Ukrainian nationalists launched the American-backed 2014 coup d'etat against Yanukovych, they unsurprisingly took it as a signal to break away, knowing that the new regime would be coming in hard against them.

> In the real world, when countries cannot continue an armed struggle, they sue for peace and sometime have to ceded territory. France ceded Alsace and Lorraine in 1871; Germany ceded a third of its territory in 1945; Japan ceded its whole empire and the Kuriles in 1945, etc.

In conclusion: we either stop this senseless slaughter now or continue to fund an endless bloodbath which will result of the destruction of the whole Ukrainian nation. A hard choice, but we live in the real world, and we must deal with messy realities.

Bravo, despite the mess now in Ukraine, there's plenty of historical evidence that Ukraine can thrive again soon!

Don't forget, Russia attacked Ukraine.

TobleroneToday 06:25 am JST

“Pushback from Zelensky” ? He is finished, losing relevance by the day.

More relevant to Ukraine than Trump. If Trump isn't careful he will be stomping his feet on a stage with Putin alone.

Lord DartmouthDec. 4 11:02 pm JST

Let's look at this coldly and honestly:

Ukraine is not our ally and never has been. We have no obligation to defend it.

Ukraine, at least the eastern half, hasn't been free of russian barbarism in centuries.

The war was provoked by American neocons who deliberately ignored Putin's red lines about NATO expansion and western meddling in his backyard spelt out consistently since at least 2008.

Still Putin's War. Putin never said anything about Ukraine specifically but spewed petulance instead.

Ukraine has only survived so far in this fight thanks to the ludicrous amount of money and materiel we've pumped into it.

And the native desire to see the invader fertilizing their soil.

The southern and eastern provinces of Ukraine are Russian in language and sympathy. They were poorly treated, and when the Ukrainian nationalists launched the American-backed 2014 coup d'etat against Yanukovych, they unsurprisingly took it as a signal to break away, knowing that the new regime would be coming in hard against them.

The little green men were not a figment of anyone's imagination.

In the real world, when countries cannot continue an armed struggle, they sue for peace and sometime have to ceded territory. France ceded Alsace and Lorraine in 1871; Germany ceded a third of its territory in 1945; Japan ceded its whole empire and the Kuriles in 1945, etc.

Germany knew they did several bad things. France was returned Alsace and Lorraine and so will Japan be returned the Kuriles.

In conclusion: we either stop this senseless slaughter now or continue to fund an endless bloodbath which will result of the destruction of the whole Ukrainian nation. A hard choice, but we live in the real world, and we must deal with messy realities.

The reality is that animals need to be humbled before they truly come to a peace table and not a surrender table.

Russia already controls all of Crimea, having unilaterally seized it from Ukraine in 2014 and has since taken about 80% of the Donbas

Those regions, mainly made up of ethic Russians, overwhelmingly voted to join Russia. They did not approve of the 2014 US-backed coup and did not appreciate being mercilessly bombed by the Kiev regime.

Don't forget, Kiev forces attacked western Ukraine.