Trump's push to open U.S. economy could come at cost of lives

Trump's fan base likes to opine that with Trump "what you see is what you get", but those of us who have the ability to read body language and tone of voice do not like what we see in this huckster. He is a terrible actor who is unable to disguise his thoughts making him the most transparent public person I have ever seen, especially when he starts nervously squeezing his air concertina to accompany the nonsense he spouts. Looking directly into the camera (cue to his church-going supporters) the "religulous" Dr Trump told the incredulous interviewer how "beautiful" and "special" Easter is (his favorite book in the Bible?) and talked packed churches to herald re-opening America for business as usual!? This ridiculous empty rhetoric is patently calculated expressly to help his re-election, but, as with the guy who died swallowing fish tank cleaner, Trump's irresponsible words could have deadly consequences: on Easter Sunday, somewhere in America, the virus will certainly be attending church.

Jimizo:

As Trump and his supporters tell us, next to nobody is watching the MSM.

Our regular contributors here certainly do, and they are pushed on us. What do do you see in air ports, hotels, intl supermarkets etc.? Breitbart? Rebel media? Not in the world I live in.

Many people are watching podcasts and parroting mediocrities like Dave ‘libertarian’ Rubin, Candace ‘like’ Owens, Scott ‘creator of Dilbert’’ Adams and the like.

Don’t think that circus is any better.

I absolutely think that circus is better! In particular, I watch Scott Adams regularly, and the guy has been spot on for a long time. You might want peek outside the bubble sometime.

If we use half a million as the number of lives that the pandemic will take, how does that compare to the numbers that will die if everyone takes a month off if work?

Let's put everything in perspective.

People haven't been putting too much attention, because right now they only care about the new coronavirus, but the current flu season (mostly A(H1N1)pdm09, B/Victoria, A(H3N2)) has been actually pretty bad, which actually is one of the reasons there are way less beds available in hospitals right now.

There are en estimated 0.45-1.2 million deaths already, so there is your over half a million already, but from a different disease.

And here is the thing, people doesn't seem to care that much if millions die from any other disease, but when it comes to the coronavirus, for some reason only then we need to start to take those deaths seriously.

I would say, at least be consistent and ask for constant lock-downs every year, whenever the "normal" flu is killing thousands.

Now, about your "taking a month off of work", it depends a lot on the industry, and for the most part, specially in industries that require people doing stuff all year long, those vacations are spread around the year, which means that the number of people working at any given times is about the same.

This isn't a paid vacation, we are basically stopping the whole world for who knows how long, and with who knows what consequences. Just think about mental health problems that will arise from this. It is like, right now, people with depression, or people with anxiety disorders do not matter.

There will be, and probably already it's already ongoing, a spike in suicides because of all these measures.

And that doesn't even consider the fact that many of the civil right restrictions put in place today, as history shows us, will remain in place, and will be used for a completely different reason, and something that was once seen as a violation on basic human rights, will be seen as the new normal.

Just look at 9/11. After almost 20 years, the patriot act is still in place, and what was once thought as a violation of human rights, is now the law of the land.

So yeah. Once again, pick your poison.

What I fear is that, because most people are just in pure panic mode, as it usually happens in these instances, the poison people will pick isn't a rational one that actually causes the less suffering, but the one who "feels" right at that moment in time, to calm down their own panic.

Look at media that supported by governments, by Big Tech, by Hollywood, look at the big news agencies. 

Pro-Authoritarian posters who cannot defend their preferred politicians often attack vague notions like 'the media', something they call the 'deep state'. Though that's their right, they add nothing to discussions. the topic of this thread is...?

@WilliB

As Trump and his supporters tell us, next to nobody is watching the MSM.

Many people are watching podcasts and parroting mediocrities like Dave ‘libertarian’ Rubin, Candace ‘like’ Owens, Scott ‘creator of Dilbert’’ Adams and the like.

Don’t think that circus is any better.

PTownsend:

7+ billion on the planet. 7+ billion ways to see 'reality'. Yours one of them. Mine also. The 'dissident voice' media reach huge numbers of people. As do the ones said to be 'mainstream'. As do those that could be somewhere between the two

You are trying relativize. It is really not that hard to define "mainstream". Look at media that supported by governments, by Big Tech, by Hollywood, look at the big news agencies. And you will the see the massive anti-Trump agenda.

Yes, there is Breitbart, there is Gateway Pundit, there is Gates of Vienna etc etc. But none of those are pushed at you in airports, hotels, talking TV heads. You really have to go out of their way to find them. I agree that the much smeared Faux news channel would count as "mainstream" seeing their size. But afaic, that is the only one that is not on the Trump bashing wagon. Or can you name another one?

@willibYou are really denying reality here

7+ billion on the planet. 7+ billion ways to see 'reality'. Yours one of them. Mine also. The 'dissident voice' media reach huge numbers of people. As do the ones said to be 'mainstream'. As do those that could be somewhere between the two. It's up to individuals to decide which to believe. Those constantly bashing outlets that have different perspectives from theirs add nothing to discussions. Not surprising they're ones pushing for greater authoritarianism.

For most people, the new coronavirus causes mild or moderate symptoms, such as fever and cough that clear up in two to three weeks. For some, especially older adults and people with existing health problems, it can cause more severe illness, including pneumonia and death. The vast majority of people recover.

And the vast majority of Trump supporters are over 50 - hear that Trump fans? Donnie is coming after you...

Trump: "Some of my supporters will die, but the rest will still vote for me in Nov"...

The power of the cult...just like Guyana and Jim Jones...

I do not think anybody said that. Re-opening should happen gradually and reasonable. I.e. once you have a large part of the population that is confirmed to be safe, of course they should not be kept locked in.

Yup, basically I can agree with that.

Ah so:

It is 50:50 that by the end of today (US time) the will be more cases of coronavirus on the US than in China. By tomorrow, a certainty.

Your prediction is based on data provided by the CCP?

rainyday:

My concern is that the viewpoint that we should re-open everything soon

I do not think anybody said that. Re-opening should happen gradually and reasonable. I.e. once you have a large part of the population that is confirmed to be safe, of course they should not be kept locked in.

Ptownsend:

Trump, his fellow elite, his fellow politicians all have the best health care possible.

...as do have his political rivals, the talking heads in in the "mainstream" media, and the celebrities and royalty that are bashing him. Trump is rich, that is why he can take them on. Your point?

Free, for-profit press, after all. Lots of opinions. Trump's media are praising him.

The only "mainstream" organization that is not bashing Trump every day is Fox (or Faux as your friends like to spell it). All the other dissident voices you mention are not mainstream, and are increasingly suppressed by big tech. The big names in the alphat soup media, the goverment media (like BBC, Agency France, ARD etc), agencies like Reuters and Bloomberg, and big Tech are solidly pro-globalist and anti-Trump. You are really denying reality here.

How can anyone support this monstrous excuse for a human being?

The forelock tuggers and benighted have always been with us. And today many of them have found their messiah who's convinced them he'll slay their enemies, i.e. those not from their demographic.

A large economic recession will take more lives and make life miserable for many years to come. So take your poison, but what I'm mostly sure is that, when everyone starts to struggle to pay their most basic bills, they will start to consider that, maybe, just maybe, it was a little of an overreaction.

If we use half a million as the number of lives that the pandemic will take, how does that compare to the numbers that will die if everyone takes a month off if work?

In Europe, people typically have a couple of weeks or more annual vacation time than in the US. So this should surely translate into lots of deaths.

Does it? No - developed European countries have a higher life expectancy than the USA.

So taking a month off work is simply an additional couple of weeks more than the average European gets off each year. That's hardly going to cripple the economy.

“The LameStream Media is the dominant force in trying to get me to keep our Country closed as long as possible in the hope that it will be detrimental to my election success,” Trump tweeted Wednesday. “The real people want to get back to work ASAP. We will be stronger than ever before!”

Even by Trump standards that's just revolting. How can anyone support this monstrous excuse for a human being?

Ok, so then, Trump should Completely let the economy sink and bring on the rise of the demise of the US no matter what.

Its not very productive to pose it as a choice between economic collapse or letting huge numbers of old and vulnerable people die. We need an approach that avoids both.

My concern is that the viewpoint that we should re-open everything soon because of the economic stress runs the risk of having both of these outcomes come to pass. Stop our efforts prematurely and the infection spreads way further and way more people will die, which will itself tank the economy anyway since nobody is going to shop or work when they are terrified of a runaway virus, even if stuff is allowed to open.

The best approach seems to be to bite the bullet and keep a strict lockdown for a couple of months to get the spread of this under control, then start lifting restrictions and returning to normal. That'll both minimize the death toll and the economic chaos.

@bass4fTrump should Completely let the economy sink 

No one said that.

It did not take long for the "mainstream" media to turn this into a Trump bashing narrative, did it.

Free, for-profit press, after all. Lots of opinions. Trump's media are praising him. See. most of Rupert Murdoch's global media empire, which includes Fox 'news' cable plus about 200 local/regional TV stations, Sinclair Broadcasting's 250+ local regional TV stations, the 500 radio stations Rush Limbaugh's on plus Hannity, Glen Beck etal, magazines like The National Review and others, the 100's of internet sites pushing Trump's agendas.

Trump, his fellow elite, his fellow politicians all have the best health care possible. Most have little if any understanding of what it's like to sweat health problems. The elite's 'greed is good' beliefs are psychotic. Most have zero if any understanding of others (i.e. those not from their class or demographic). They see others as existing to serve them. And with Trump, they exist to praise him at one of his rallies and clean up after him at one of his resorts. Cult of personality after all. When has one ever bettered the lives of the general population.

It did not take long for the "mainstream" media to turn this into a Trump bashing narrative, did it.

All that Trump did was to set a preliminary time frame. Of course that is not set in stone. But at the same time, of course the entire economy of the country can not be shut down indefinitely, unless we all want to starve and freeze to death. Gradually, healthy people, especially those that have been tested and show antibodies (i,e, resistance to the virus) must return to work.

But yes, we know.... Trump must be bashed every day.

“The LameStream Media is the dominant force in trying to get me to keep our Country closed as long as possible in the hope that it will be detrimental to my election success,”

What an awful, awful human this Trump fellow is. How on earth people feel attracted to this vicious, selfish, crooked child will always baffle me.

Ok, so then, Trump should Completely let the economy sink and bring on the rise of the demise of the US no matter what. Sounds very smart politically from a liberal point of view OR you can follow the CDC, W.H.O guidelines and practice extreme safety precautions and go to work in the industries that desperately require it. Because if the country comes to a complete stand still, it’s pretty much over for the US and the rest of the world. If America goes down, the world will follow.

For some reason people think only about the now, and never the future.

A large economic recession will take more lives and make life miserable for many years to come. So take your poison, but what I'm mostly sure is that, when everyone starts to struggle to pay their most basic bills, they will start to consider that, maybe, just maybe, it was a little of an overreaction.

I mean, of course no one wants to see people die, but for some reason we never go into full lockdown mode, or no one seems to really care about the millions of people who die from preventable contagious diseases every single year.

I don't think most people even are aware of the real risks of this pandemic, which means that they cannot even take a good risk assessment, and just panic because they believe their life is in danger.

It is 50:50 that by the end of today (US time) the will be more cases of coronavirus on the US than in China. By tomorrow, a certainty.

Cases growing exponentially and this will soon translate into deaths.

Aside from the obvious moral issues, taking a “let old people die” approach seems politically risky given that the elderly make up a huge proportion of the Republican base.

That may become particularly telling in Florida where there are a lot of elderly and it is a key marginal. If they feel they have been abandoned, they will punish him him at the ballot box.

It is a very brutal thing to ever put a value on a human life, but it is something that we do all the time as a society.

The president lacks that empathy to see this as a something that most find very uncomfortable, so puts what he sees as the truth in very blunt terms - this is part of three problem with being s sociopath.

He also overvalues the economy at the expense of life. If half a million Americans die, that is vastly more than die of common influenza. All of this social distancing will also have a positive knock-on in reducing deaths from influenza and other diseases.

But Trump thinks about his re-election and money well before the people.

Aside from the obvious moral issues, taking a “let old people die” approach seems politically risky given that the elderly make up a huge proportion of the Republican base.

Just so long as it doesnt hit close to home Trump wont give a damn, that should be obvious to everyone!