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Trump, Democrats head toward immigration showdown

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By Paul HANDLEY

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I think chain migration is what the Dems are going to shut down the government again over. They will cough up money for the wall but chain migration is their red line. It’s the crucial policy they depend on to import ever more poor dependent voters from socialist countries. This is how they intend to overwhelm more rural Americans to attain political power. It’s so obvious that in the last shutdown they were willing to place the needs of illegal aliens over the needs of military men and women.

Here comes another shutdown. The question is, will Shutdown Schumer blink again?

-1 ( +11 / -12 )

Let the games begin!

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

WolfpackToday  07:40 am JST

chain migration

What a neat little buzzword the GOP keeps using. It's a magical euphemism that takes the expression it really means, "keeping families together", and by misdirection makes it sound vaguely threatening without bothering to show a shred of evidence for its threat.

4 ( +13 / -9 )

WolfpackToday  07:40 am JST

Shutdown Schumer 

Speaking of buzzwords, what does it say to you that this nickname was first coined and spread by Twitter bots serving Russian propaganda sources?

5 ( +12 / -7 )

I'm not even sure why The Wall, and its outlandish costs, is even on the negotiating table. If, as promised by Trump, Mexico is going to pay for it, why should Dems offer to pay for any of it. For that matter, why is it even part of the budget negotiations.

It's a hostage standoff, in which Trump says, "I will throw these beautiful children out of the country unless you waste billions on a useless wall that I promised in a rash moment during a rally."

4 ( +10 / -6 )

"His immigration proposal betrays family values and uses Dreamers as a bargaining chip to harm other families."

exactly

2 ( +8 / -6 )

Given hat immigrants, both documented and undocumented, do not harm the US in the way barely literate conservatives constantly claim; why is immigration such a big issue? Oh, that's correct! Conservatives are fear driven and lack rationality.

I'll never get tired of Trump and his ignorant supporters claiming immigrants take jobs from Americans whilst Trump constantly imports labor to work at his properties when literally thousands of Americans in those areas are looking for the exact types of jobs that Trump fills with immigrant labor. (I know that sentence was more than five words, so the vast majority of Trump aupporters won't understand it. I did try to keep to simple words.)

4 ( +11 / -7 )

Tommy, I’m fairly liberal and disagree with you. Serious question: Since it seems you think it is ok for people to cross the US border illegally and expect to remain in the US then do you think it’s ok for me, as an American expat not to file and pay taxes? I would also like to pick and choose which laws apply to me.

Please reply in short sentences and simple words....thanks

7 ( +10 / -3 )

Tokyo Eng:

Thanks for the reasonable response. My hyperbolic posts are a direct result of conservatives hyperbolic posts. If you want to play with fire, expect to get burnt.

I do not support anyone breaking the law. You cannot find me doing so in any of my posts. My point has always been that conservatives paint immigration as an "end-of-the-world" issue when it isn't.

No matter how loud conservatives scream about immigrants, the facts are that the US experiences a net benefit from immigrants.

Does that clarify my position? I'm more than willing to engage in a reasonable dialogue, which is impossible when people refuse to acknowledge facts, constantly repeat falsehoods, etc.

3 ( +9 / -6 )

Tommy....fair enough. The problem is the word immigrant is used to describe both legal and illegal immigrants. This is just plain wrong.

Illegal immigrants do impact the labor market and are often paid wages well below the value of their work. Payroll taxes are not properly withheld and they have no health benefits. The cost of hiring an illegal immigrant is less than 1/2 of a legal immigrant or citizen when taking into account all factors.

if I were in these people’s shoes I would likely do the same... cross the border illegally to make a better life. I don’t blame those crossing but they are breaking the law.

The “newspeak” of “undocumented” or equating legal to illegal immigration in my mind is not acceptable

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Tokyo Eng:

You are correct that the incorrect terms are being used and resulting in conflation of two terms. Let's all agree there is a standard that is used to define terms for legal purposes. That seems reasonable so we all know exactly what each other are talking about.

For immigration, that body of law is titled the "Immigration and Nationality Act" (INA). Under the definitions of the INA are the terms documented immigrant and undocumented immigrant. So, let's all understand each other very clearly and without emotion when discussing this issue.

There is a law that severely punishes employers of undocumented immigrants. Additionally, undocumented immigrants typically do the jobs that "Americans don't want anyway."

7 ( +9 / -2 )

That’s why it used to be called illegal alien, for clarity. It’s still the same status. There is no “showdown” over this, the deal is already on the table same as it has been.

”chain migration” got people killed. That’s fine.

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

That’s fine...that it goes away.

-10 ( +1 / -11 )

I'm not even sure why The Wall, and its outlandish costs, is even on the negotiating table.

Many of us feel the same about DACA.

If, as promised by Trump, Mexico is going to pay for it, why should Dems offer to pay for any of it. For that matter, why is it even part of the budget negotiations.

At this point, I want it built and if I have to go there and give up my time to help build it or fund it, I’m writing a check.

It's a hostage standoff, in which Trump says, "I will throw these beautiful children out of the country unless you waste billions on a useless wall that I promised in a rash moment during a rally."

Sad, but yes, not their fault and not our problem, they’re not citizens, they don’t have the same rights and privileges that are given to native born citizens. So either Trump gets funding for the military and for the wall an end to chain migration and the visa lottery system or No DACA. Trump made an offer doubling legalizing 1.3 million over the previous 800K I’m not happy at all with it, but at least if we can put an end to all this and finally get real legislation and close these loopholes it would be a monumental victory for the country, but the Dems said, No. so I hope these people bought enough cloths and brushed up on their Spanish, the clock is ticking. So the Dems would rather put politics before these dreamers, that’s says a lot where their priorities lay.

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

t's a hostage standoff, in which Trump says, "I will throw these beautiful children out of the country unless you waste billions on a useless wall that I promised in a rash moment during a rally."

Pretty much.

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

Yeah if we get into “whys” I want to know why we are even bothering with compromising over the status of people illegally in our country.

The more than generous deal is there. Take it or leave it.

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

Why would someone be against immigration? Immigrants start businesses, use cash, and are part of the culture that brought my family here in 1906. Same with Trump and probably a lot of people here. Who has the right to say that their family's immigration was the last justifiable immigrants to enter America? They are just repeating the same racism their grandfathers faced.

7 ( +12 / -5 )

Why would someone be against immigration?

No one is against legal immigration. It’s illegal immigration and open borders that we are all fighting against.

Immigrants start businesses, use cash, and are part of the culture that brought my family here in 1906. Same with Trump and probably a lot of people here.

In California they also get drivers licenses, in many cases will be allowed to vote, get a job and jump ahead of people that paid their dues and followed all the laws of the system, liberals want to reward people for breaking the law.

Who has the right to say that their family's immigration was the last justifiable immigrants to enter America? They are just repeating the same racism their grandfathers faced.

The President has the right.

-6 ( +6 / -12 )

Hi Tommy; Thanks for your reply and explanation of where the terms are derived from. I am aware of that but I disagree with the terms. Fortunately there is still some freedom of speech in the U.S. so both terms ("Illegal" and "undocumented") can be used. For me I prefer the term illegal. Anyway your points are well taken and I appreciate the interesting "back and forth" with you on this issue. I believe I understand what your original point is.

@Superlib - I am in no way against immigration. Do it legally, follow the process, enter the country, and become a productive member of society. I have several friends who married Japanese ladies (or of other origin) and it is unreal what they have to go through to even bring their wives to the U.S. The process is inverted and needs fixing.

I detested the way Trump presented this issue and spoke on it....very much so. But I agree something needs to be done about the issue. Also I am not a Trump supporter but I believe the Democrats should jump at the compromise for the "Dreamers"....it is a big compromise. But in this day and age it seems to be all or nothing. Not much like the U.S. I knew where people could compromise and more people could engage in civil discourse. Those days seem to be long gone.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

one side representing hard-working citizens, the other side representing non-citizens.

I wonder why the Dems can't win elections?

-8 ( +2 / -10 )

we have a legal process to obtain visas, anyone who skirts that is ILLEGAL, not undocumented.

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

Why would someone be against immigration? 

What is it about illegal that you don’t understand?

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

That is the best job Dems ever did, to get the term illegal alien changed to illegal immigrants so they can claim the other side is “anti-immigrant”.

Bringing up the Statue of Liberty quote and saying everyone is an immigrant. Sure, but my ancestors didn’t sneak over a wall then have protests about their “rights” to stay. They applied, waited in line, got accepted and showed up with skills to contribute.

Well all that and then calling them “Dreamers”, acting like American citizen kids don’t dream too. That was pretty good messaging too.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

What is it about using the correct, unemotional term undocumented immigrant. Not to mention the fact that only actions are illegal, not individuals. Got to keep that fear whipped up.

Tokyo Eng: Appreciatw the back and forth with you. Agreed that it is good we have freedom of speech.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

You aren’t a doctor until you get the official paperwork that says you are. So you aren’t an “immigrant” either until the papers are done.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

bass4funkToday  10:09 am JST

t's a hostage standoff, in which Trump says, "I will throw these beautiful children out of the country unless you waste billions on a useless wall that I promised in a rash moment during a rally."

Pretty much.

Exactly.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@wolfpack.....that is a key point. As I’ve pointed out above in the “newspeak” illegal and legal immigration are considered the same. I’m all for legal immigration to countries. I’m all against illegal immigration. I’m a long term resident here in Japan and also lived in another country prior. It never crossed my mind to illegally enter or remain in either country and if I did violate immigration laws I would expect to be deported. It seems people want the US to ignore the law while our southern neighbor and other countries aggressively evict illegal immigrants. I often wonder why

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Yes it’s not a national crisis at all when people illegally in Japan are sent home. Even kids, back they go to parents country even if they never been there.

Illegal immigrant lady on tv other day said “I’m not illegally in the country, I rode a plane here and then overstayed my visa”. It’s getting ridiculous.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5335923/77-illegal-immigrants-crammed-sweaty-UPS-truck.html

2nd truck in a week full of 70+ illegals caught. Why now? Almost like they trying to get back here to be included in something...........

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

Tokyo-Engr: It seems people want the US to ignore the law while our southern neighbor and other countries aggressively evict illegal immigrants. I often wonder why

I cannot for the life of me understand how something so basic as expecting people to obey a countries laws could become so controversial. The parents of illegals brought as children know the law and they know that entering a country illegally could cause hardship and separation. For their own reasons they chose to take that risk anyway. If a DACA eligible person is apprehended and deported it is solely the fault of their own parents. The parents and only the parents are responsible for any pain that their actions caused. Had they stayed in their own nation and worked to make it better then they need not worry.

My wife and I have gone through the legal immigration process. We spent a lot of money and waited our turn. I surely would not expect the government to make fools of us for being so stupid as to be good citizens and obeying the law.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

US Democrats want to bring in Immigrant Thug Rappers that rape women and little boys while Trump and current Repubs want to bring in people who are willing to speak english and work to build their own families in a process continual line of order and expedited when possible.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

dreamers are exactly that. the reality is they are not legally in the US. while i feel for them, its their parents fault, if they want to stay they should go through proper channels.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

For all the people who complain that immigration is good obviously don't understand what DT is trying achieve - he is not stopping legal documented immigrants who are willing to fit in, work hard, pay their taxes and not be involved in crime. The Democrats want the undocumented illegal immigrants that will be a burden on the Welfare / Criminal System because it is shown these people are more likely to vote Democrat. The reason why DT wants the funds to build the wall is simple he will build using American funds then extract the money back from Mexico or Mexicans by imposing a surcharge on funds being transferred back to Mexico. The current Chain Migration Law is allowing basically anyone that is related to another migrant into America immediate family members that have been documented would be allowed but extended family will now have to apply and meet the new immigration criteria on their own merit.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

let's see, we have legal immigrants and citizens who went through a proper process to enter a country and we have a bunch of people who skirted the process and entered illegally. Let's see, which side should I support?

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

If I jump the fence at an amusement park I am NOT a "non-ticket holding customer" I am a law breaker. Stop the "undocumented immigrant" ignorance. They are illegal aliens.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Wolfpack

If a DACA eligible person is apprehended and deported it is solely the fault of their own parents. The parents and only the parents are responsible for any pain that their actions caused.

OK, but why does the kid have to be punished? They didn't ask to be born in or brought to America, but I think they at least have the right to stay, instead of being deported to a country where they may have no family, friends, home etc.

I'm not American and have no dog in the fight. Just asking.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Undocumented immigrant is a play on words for illegal alien

Illegal is to be outside the law and it is criminal.

Illegal aliens are criminals that commit the crime of entering the USA illegally.

No play on words should circumvent American law. Illegal is illegal.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@ricky - My opinion is that children that have established themselves here and are enrolled in school or anchored in some way should be allowed to stay. The parents would need to find a relative or someone for the kids to live with. The adults should be resettled back in their home country.

@Ray - I agree with you however this is not a popular position for a person to take on this website.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

> Undocumented immigrant is a play on words for illegal alien

Illegal is to be outside the law and it is criminal. 

Illegal aliens are criminals that commit the crime of entering the USA illegally.

No play on words should circumvent American law. Illegal is illegal.

Bingo!

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@Tokyo-Engr

My opinion is that children that have established themselves here and are enrolled in school or anchored in some way should be allowed to stay.

I don't disagree with that outcome, but let me try to convince you that the logic of allowing them to stay just because they are anchored is built on morally shakey ground. Remember, everyday in America illegal immigrants with children who have been in the US for years or decades are caught by the authorities. Many of them have the dignity and humility to accept that what they have done is wrong and illegal and they choose to return to a law abiding life. They pull their children out of school, pack up their belongings, and head back to their home country. I have nothing but respect for these people. My Question is this: Why aren't the children of these people (I'll call them the 'lost dreamers') at the front of the line for DACA privileges? The Dreamers you see on TV are only the survivors. They are simply the most successful stealthy evaders of immigration enforcement, or the those lucky enough to have a network of family members in the US to harbour them. Why should these be the deciding factors for who gets these privileges and who does not?

Luckily, there is a better and fairer way. You can offer something to both the surviving dreamers and the 'lost dreamers'. The US could adopt a points based system (like Canada or Australia). Points could be awarded for things like the ability to speak English (the majority language) at a very fluent level, or for the length of time spent in US schools, or in military service. You could skew the system to heavily favour all those who used to live in the US as children. This would be open to everyone including the 'lost dreamers' rather than just as a special privilege offered to those who were able to evade enforcement for the longest time. I hope you agree that this is much fairer longterm solution than a one time blanket amnesty.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Bass4Funk

No one is against legal immigration.

Donald J Trump is.

"Trump again portrayed legal and illegal immigration as a threat to the country,"

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Donald J Trump is. 

"Trump again portrayed legal and illegal immigration as a threat to the country,"

But he’s willing to give 1.3 million dreamers legalization, double from the original 800K

And going against his base? Yeah, that’s extremely and generously racist. A bit of an oxymoron there. But keep trying, sooner or later the left will make some sort of sense....I guess.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

it’s not a national crisis at all when people illegally in Japan are sent home.

You'll notice Japan is not America. I doubt that America would want to resemble Japan. Yes, there is the rigidity of law. There is also the flexibility of compassion and reality. The latter two Japan lack. Would you make America so?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The Republican party allowed the millions of immigrants here without legal status because their business supporters wanted them in their businesses. No enforcement against employers, promised by Reagan, ever happened.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The Republican party allowed the millions of immigrants here without legal status because their business supporters wanted them in their businesses.

And the Democrats wanted and needed the votes, so what’s your

point?

No enforcement against employers, promised by Reagan, ever happened.

What on Earth are you talking about?

https://www.newsmax.com/johnhavick/democrats-wall-border-security-trump/2018/01/09/id/836044/

A long, long time ago....

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@CrazyJoe

No enforcement against employers, promised by Reagan, ever happened.

That is a very good point. I'd also say that the Reagan amnesty was one of the biggest impediments to building a more sustainable immigration system for the longterm. It just kicked the can down the road until the next crisis. Hopefully that doesn't happen this time.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

bass4funk

1.3 million isn't double 800,000.

And he's only willing to concede that in exchange for 'sharp' and 'harsh' overall cuts to immigration. That means legal and illegal.

And did you see the other article on your newsmax link? It said 'Student uses brilliant mind trick to melt belly fat.' So… yeah.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@RiskyMosaic: OK, but why does the kid have to be punished? They didn't ask to be born in or brought to America, but I think they at least have the right to stay, instead of being deported to a country where they may have no family, friends, home etc.

I think this is a reasonable argument but it is still wrong when applied to hundreds of thousands or millions of individuals. Lawbreaking on a massive scale is an indicator and a case of the societal dysfunction that we are seeing in America today.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of DACA kids are actually adults now with some as old as into their 40’s. Though it would be somewhat difficult for an adult to integrate back into a society they left as children. But it would be much less difficult than when their parents uprooted them as children and threw them into a foreign culture in America. Each of the DACA kids has a cultural background in their home countries because they grew up with their illegal immigrant parents. It’s not like you are dropping a kid from the Australian outback into Tokyo.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Chain migration is legal....but Repubs want that gone.

The GOP is capping legal immigration.

The GOP is capping refugees.

The GOP is trying to end legal visa lotteries.

The GOP is trying to limit foreign worker visas (but not the one Trump uses).

The GOP is on board with a Muslim ban.

But sure, the GOP is just fighting against illegal immigration.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

-2( +2 / -4 )

LagunaToday 06:34 pm JST

it’s not a national crisis at all when people illegally in Japan are sent home.

You'll notice Japan is not America. I doubt that America would want to resemble Japan. Yes, there is the rigidity of law. There is also the flexibility of compassion and reality. The latter two Japan lack. Would you make America so?

Japan is a well managed country. I sleep well at night.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Back on topic please.

1.3 million isn't double 800,000.

Figure of speech. You know the number would be greater than even 1.3 million.

And he's only willing to concede that in exchange for 'sharp' and 'harsh' overall cuts to immigration. That means legal and illegal

Yes.

Chain migration is legal....but Repubs want that gone.

It will be made illegal.

The GOP is capping legal immigration.

They should, they need to.

The GOP is capping refugees.

They should, they need to.

The GOP is trying to end legal visa lotteries.

Stupid System and should have never been a criteria for allowing people blindly into the country.

The GOP is trying to limit foreign worker visas (but not the one Trump uses).

Thats utter BS, but they should.

The GOP is on board with a Muslim ban.

Yes!

But sure, the GOP is just fighting against illegal immigration.

Yes.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

RiskyMosaic: And he's only willing to concede that in exchange for 'sharp' and 'harsh' overall cuts to immigration. That means legal and illegal

The percentage of people living in America that were born in a foreign country is at an historic high. No other nation in the world allows the same numbers of legal immigrants into their country as does America. It is reasonable to cut the legal immigrant numbers in order to allow the current legal immigrants time to integrate into American society. High levels of illegal immigration has caused social conflict and now a government shutdown.

What do you mean by a “harsh” cut? Trump still wants to legalize 1.8 million illegals currently in the country and still allow a half million legal immigrants per year. What other country in the world is more open than that? Trump derangement syndrome is preventing you from making a reasonable argument.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

In the spirit of keeping illegal alien families together, chain migration should be replaced with chain deportation.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Wolfpack

Thanks for the responses.

“What do you mean by a “harsh” cut?”

Simply quoting the article. Ask Donald.

“Trump derangement syndrome.” Like I said, no dog in the fight. Just rubber necking the train-wreck that is current American politics.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

But he’s willing to give 1.3 million dreamers legalization, double from the original 800K but they were going to get it under the last dreamers agreement under Obama, until Trump took it away. So now the President says he will reinstate something that was already there but he needs his $20billion wall in exchange. Sound more like blackmail than a deal. LOL . Id say its going to take much more than reinstating the dreamers policy before Trump will get his wall.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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