Trump makes first big foray into Ukraine diplomacy, speaking to Putin, Zelenskyy

Trump is going to have to offer Ukraine more than surrender unless he wants to be left holding the bag.

"We want, like you, a sovereign and prosperous Ukraine. But we must start by recognizing that returning to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective," Hegseth told a meeting at NATO headquarters in Brussels. "Chasing this illusionary goal will only prolong the war and cause more suffering."

What an idiot Hegseth is. You don’t start negotiations by surrendering your position. I’m not saying that Ukraine can get that territory back, but Hegseth has given it up before they’ve even started.

But we must start by recognizing that returning to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective,

As I predicted, all the deaths since the failed Ukrainian offensive in 2023 have been pointless.

He, like President Putin, wants to make PEACE."

Well, he invaded a country, unprovoked.

We want, like you, a sovereign and prosperous Ukraine. But we must start by recognizing that returning to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective,

To be fair he is not wrong, Ukraine's position is nowhere near strong enough to demand this.

What is more important is that Europe realizes the importance of looking to the future and building a strong deterrence.

The US gaze is firmly across the pacific.

Well, he invaded a country, unprovoked

This lie is in the top 5 right along with WMD’s in Iraq. Warmongers always try to fool you.

This lie is in the top 5 right along with WMD’s in Iraq.

I guess that depends which side of the fence you sit on doesn't it?

KnightsOfCydonia

We want, like you, a sovereign and prosperous Ukraine. But we must start by recognizing that returning to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective,

To be fair he is not wrong, Ukraine's position is nowhere near strong enough to demand this.

Terrible negotiation skills. Defining the starting position at a disadvantage.

Russia has already offered robust security guarantees. The important thing is meeting Moscow's non-negotiable conditions - strict neutrality, demilitarization and an Aussie-style ban on neo-nazis and their badges plus certain other caveats as they emerge.

Kyiv has permanently lost territories and they will NEVER return: the only realistic position. To that end, it's absolutely prudent to delineate the new borders and give full UN recognition. Moscow will not allow Kyiv to rearm and commence hostilities down the track: sticking to that mindset requires Moscow to take preventative measures NOW, meaning for Kyiv to be removed from the board as an effective piece.

Another important point in negotiations going forward is discussing the future status of territories which have not decided that yet (i.e. not the four Donbass regions plus Crimea which have ceded already). Some others will definitely wish to join Russia.

Important to use Istanbul as a mere starting point and move upward and forward from there.

There will be no peacekeeping force as it will lack a UN mandate (which means any force lacking this will be deemed hostile by Moscow command and attacked) and that mandate won't be forthcoming. Plus, the only such force authorised is already present (Russian).

FizzBit

Well, he invaded a country, unprovoked

This lie is in the top 5 right along with WMD’s in Iraq.

It’s not a lie.

Warmongers always try to fool you.

Indeed. And warmonger Putin is trying to fool you that he was forced to invade. Don’t believe the lies.

I guess that depends which side of the fence you sit on doesn't it?

weak….but good

Terrible negotiation skills. Defining the starting position at a disadvantage.

I don't see another way at this point, do you?

russia however, must offer concessions too, if this going to work.

JJE

Russia has already offered robust security guarantees.

The security guarantees are to protect Ukraine against Russia.

Moscow will not allow Kyiv to rearm

Moscow can go to hell

There will be no peacekeeping force

sorry but there will be an even bigger force along the russian border than before the war began, that is a given.

KnightsOfCydonia

Terrible negotiation skills. Defining the starting position at a disadvantage.

I don't see another way at this point, do you?

To publicly say this before negotiations means that Russia will take not surrendering territory as the starting point.

To publicly say this before negotiations means that Russia will take not surrendering territory as the starting point.

not necessarily, he said pre 2014, not pre 2022

KnightsOfCydonia

To publicly say this before negotiations means that Russia will take not surrendering territory as the starting point.

not necessarily, he said pre 2014, not pre 2022

Sure, but it takes Crimea off the table. Without saying it, Russia would have to negotiate including Ukraine demands for Crimea as a starting point.

What did Trump say on the first day when Putin invaded Ukraine?

”This is genius!” . . . Trump

How can anyone trust Trump to do what’s best for Ukraine?

The rump state of Ukraine doesn't need security guarantees if it adheres to strict neutrality, demilitarization etc.

Important to note pre-coup Ukraine, from 1991-2013, which observed constitutional neutrality, had.... wait for it, wait for it... no problems whatsoever.

One point must be held to and that is Ukraine joins the European Union. Maybe not NATO since they are still occupied but definitely part of Europe.

Russia has already offered robust security guarantees. The important thing is meeting Moscow's non-negotiable conditions - strict neutrality, demilitarization and an Aussie-style ban on neo-nazis and their badges plus certain other caveats as they emerge.

Kyiv has permanently lost territories and they will NEVER return: the only realistic position. To that end, it's absolutely prudent to delineate the new borders and give full UN recognition. Moscow will not allow Kyiv to rearm and commence hostilities down the track: sticking to that mindset requires Moscow to take preventative measures NOW, meaning for Kyiv to be removed from the board as an effective piece.

Another important point in negotiations going forward is discussing the future status of territories which have not decided that yet (i.e. not the four Donbass regions plus Crimea which have ceded already). Some others will definitely wish to join Russia.

Important to use Istanbul as a mere starting point and move upward and forward from there.

There will be no peacekeeping force as it will lack a UN mandate (which means any force lacking this will be deemed hostile by Moscow command and attacked) and that mandate won't be forthcoming. Plus, the only such force authorised is already present (Russian).

That's a lot of words to simply say "I love and support Russia".

Important to note pre-coup Ukraine, from 1991-2013, which observed constitutional neutrality, had.... wait for it, wait for it... no problems whatsoever.

because it was under the thumb of putin and look what happened as soon as they broke free,

A demilitarized russia is what is needed and putin pushing up daisies.

What an idiot Hegseth is. You don’t start negotiations by surrendering your position. 

As Hegseth has said, it is an illusionary goal.

Now for the bottom part of the article: the minerals and Zelensky's plan C (?) to turn what is left over of Ukraine into a one-stop-shop.

This betrays one of the true purposes of the Ukraine conflict in general: to use it as an aggressive bulwark against Russia while seizing the resources.

It was never democracy, freedom, independence and certainly not the welfare of Ukrainian people - all the piffle they trot out to sound morally righteous. Part of this was a good old-fashioned scramble for resources.

By sheer contrast, amongst Russia's primary motivations was actually protecting the decent people of the south-east, first and foremost.

Now the mask has finally slipped it is time for a reality check on those minerals: 70% are in Russian controlled areas, including most of the rare earths, lithium and titanium. A good remaining portion are east of the Dnieper (i.e. in areas likely to come under future Russian control). The economic viability of deposits with regards to world markets is far from established. Moscow can easily interdict any extraction operation it hasn't signed off on.

Russia doesn't actually need these resources but keeping them out of the greedy hands of cynical western blocs is an added bonus for Moscow moving forward.

quercetum

What an idiot Hegseth is. You don’t start negotiations by surrendering your position. 

As Hegseth has said, it is an illusionary goal.

Nothing is illusionary when negotiating.

JJE

This betrays one of the true purposes of the Ukraine conflict in general: to use it as an aggressive bulwark against Russia while seizing the resources.

That was never the purpose of the Ukraine war. The purpose has always been imperialism.

"Trump" and "diplomacy" don't belong in the same sentence. I mean this guy just crashed our international reputation within a couple of weeks of taking office, and the idea that he could be neutral when it's been known for decades that he's a Russian asset is absolutely laughable.

Putin to the negotiating table?

check!

Nothing is illusionary when negotiating.

the illusion is that there will be a lasting peace under any deal made.

What an idiot Hegseth is. You don’t start negotiations by surrendering your position. 

Hegseth forgot how to say "E Pluribus Unum" in front of a bunch of troops. He's as ridiculous as his boss is.

JJE

By sheer contrast, amongst Russia's primary motivations was actually protecting the decent people of the south-east, first and foremost.

By bombing their cities. Hardly a ‘protecting’ motivation…

Consult a map of resources:

https://x.com/herzogbogdan/status/1887147739911458838

Trump doing his best Chamberlain impression. ‘Peace in our time’, right? Why on earth would trump try to negotiate a peace deal without involving Ukraine, the country the US and the rest of the world has been supporting militarily and financially during the entire invasion? Russia has been trying to divide Europe and US for 80 years- trump is handing it victory.

Trump said that if he were president, he would end the war in 24 hours.

"I know Zelenskyy very well, and I know Putin very well. And I had a good relationship with both of them. I will have the deal done in one day," he said before the election.

Another broken promise.

Let's hope Trump can persuade them to can come to an agreement that will stop the killing of so many young men.

Russia has been trying to divide Europe and US for 80 years- trump is handing it victory.

Something new in today's circus. Divide in what way?

Seems like a good and noble endeavor

Blacklabel

Putin to the negotiating table? 

check!

He’s not there yet…

Well done President Trump. Finally bringing peace.

What kind of peace are you talking about? As they did they still do. They continue. Britain announced new military aid to Ukraine for 150 million pounds, including drons, tanks and air defense systems, - Reuters

Once it was announced, it means that it has already been delivered, transport planes did not just arrive in Romania last week. Military operations continue like before.

Trump said that if he were president, he would end the war in 24 hours.

"I know Zelenskyy very well, and I know Putin very well. And I had a good relationship with both of them. I will have the deal done in one day," he said before the election.

Another broken promise.

Again, every single person knows it was not a literal statement; the main thing is that he is doing something at all, and he is doing that now, the end result is and will be a ceasefire and an end to the war that is the ultimate goal, not if Trump accomplishes something in a day, that is not how it works.

As expected, the convicted felon and former Insurrectionist-in-Chief, followed his master’s playbook and sided with Russia.

Likewise, the new U S Secretary of Defense and former Faux News weekend talking head, threw Ukraine under the bus and followed his boss’ desire to endorse Putin’s plan for the region.

bass4funkToday  08:29 am JST

Seems like a good and noble endeavor

It is a good and noble endeavor to preserve Ukraine's independence. You have to offer something other than "no guns, no troops, no ....", though.

Capricciosa

Well, he invaded a country, unprovoked.

That is a very simplistic western media narrative.

How so? We all saw the tanks rolling into Ukraine in February, 2022.

bass4funkToday  09:14 am JST

Again, every single person knows it was not a literal statement; the main thing is that he is doing something at all, and he is doing that now, the end result is and will be a ceasefire and an end to the war that is the ultimate goal, not if Trump accomplishes something in a day, that is not how it works.

A ceasefire requires guns.

Again, every single person knows it was not a literal statement

What a load of bs. Something someone literally says on record dozens of times is quite literally a literal statement.

You yourself kept counting down on this site the days until the war was over. Now you’ve lost your enthusiasm and it’ll just ‘eventually’ happen. And are in fact now supporting sending more money to Ukriane in exchange for resources. That’s supporting extending the war. You know, warmongering.

So cut the bs.

BlacklabelToday  08:02 am JST

Putin to the negotiating table? 

check!

A surrender table is not a negotiating table. At least not a table Trump should be proud to be at.

The only way Trump can "bring peace" quickly is to hand all the territory that Russia has taken over to Putin. This was obvious even before the election. Trump has even made it clear that Ukraine should not be allowed to join NATO.

Trump's position shatters the NATO alliance, destroys U.S. credibility as a leader among the free nations, and only helps Putin achieve his dreams. But then, we all knew this during Trump's first term. Overturning the name of the Gulf of Mexico is one thing. But overturning U.S. strategic and diplomatic policy in place since the end of WII is something else.

He’s not there yet…

do you need a picture of Putin literally at a table, negotiating?

come on, man. It’s happening now.

It's great that Trump is aiming to achieve "peace for our time." It feels a little familiar, like some guy said something similar while standing outside 10 Downing Street one evening in the 1930s. Don't make a fuss over the borders already!

The billions dumped into the recent USA presidential campaign by rich donors clearly suggests that the word free should never be used to describe USA's version of democracy.

The billions dumped into the recent USA presidential campaign by rich donors clearly suggests that the word free should never be used to describe USA's version of democracy.

The "recent" campaign?

All campaigns, always

It's happening as predicted:

Donald selling out Ukraine to his buddy that dic(k)tator in the Kremlin.

And Hegseth making it very clear already:

"No Ukraine under the borders of 2019. No access of Ukraine to NATO." and so on

This looks like the Ribbentrop plan years ago.

Dividing their sphere of interest, grabbing what they want!

Don't let it happen!! UNITE and RESIST!!

Certainly does feel very much like "peace in our time". Trump has repeatedly said he wants/can make a quick peace and they only way to do that would be to appease Putin by giving away Ukranian land for peace. But I'm not so sure the Europeans/Ukranians will go along with it - they know all too well what happened last time. We'll have to wait and see whether or not that is actually the case. There should be no illusions. The paper won't be worth what it's written on and the only real security gaurantee is European boots on the ground.

Trump can bark anything he wants, the last word will be from President Putin..

Anyway Russia will get best result..

As predicted, this is how this ridiculous conflict will end. So many needless deaths because of corrupt policies allowing Zelensky and those believing the media to believe Ukraine could win.

Peace prevails.

One point must be held to and that is Ukraine joins the European Union.

Corruption is a huge hurdle to Ukraine joining. This will doubtlessly be worse after lots of war money sloshing around. This will have been at both the Ukraine and US/EU ends.

Ukraine has a huge agricultural sector and will be automatically entitled tons of subsidies after joining the EU. It will be a huge net recipient of funds. There will be mass opposition to this if it is being syphoned off the same way the military spending is. This is to say nothing of vultures like Blackrock hovering over Ukranian farmland or any other Ukranian resource that might be of use to the EU. Trump is on Blackrock's side not Ukraine's.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/07/29/ukraine-is-still-too-corrupt-to-join-the-west/

Mr KiplingToday 07:12 am JST

As I predicted, all the deaths since the failed Ukrainian offensive in 2023 have been pointless.

All the deaths since Russia illegally annexed Crimea in 2014 have been pointless. And Putin is responsible for all of them.

JJEToday 07:26 am JST

Russia has already offered robust security guarantees.

Russia has proved time and time again that its word cannot be trusted. It can only be dissuaded/compelled by force.

Moscow will not allow Kyiv to rearm and commence hostilities down the track:

It was Russia that commenced hostilities, not Ukraine. And if hostilities start again in the future, it will surely be Russia, not Ukraine, that starts them.

JJEToday 07:39 am JST

The rump state of Ukraine doesn't need security guarantees if it adheres to strict neutrality, demilitarization etc.

Ukraine wouldn't need any security guarantees were it not for Putin's war of conquest and vanity.

And Russia doesn't need to steal Ukrainian land, as it is already the world's largest country.

JJEToday 07:57 am JST

This betrays one of the true purposes of the Ukraine conflict in general: to use it as an aggressive bulwark against Russia while seizing the resources.

This betrays the fact that Putin invaded Ukraine, not the other way around.

As ever: your usual pro-Kremlin nonsense.

All countries like Ukraine would do whatever it takes to repel a foreign invader.

Europe's final betrayal, Judas kiss, white feather cowardice, of Ukraine, its people, it push for freedom from the depot dictator Putin.

First Minsk....the gutless self interests of Angela Merkel, Emmanuel Macron Vladimir Putin.

The Minsk Conundrum: Western Policy and Russia’s War in Eastern Ukraine

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2020/05/minsk-conundrum-western-policy-and-russias-war-eastern-ukraine-0/minsk-2-agreement

Now a US government willing to appease a Russian tyrant, a war criminal led regime of atrocity.

Shameful

**Capricciosa**.

Indeed. And warmonger Putin is trying to fool you that he was forced to invade."

Warmonger Biden administration tried to fool the western public that Putin invaded without a reason out o the blue. They succeeded to a large extent as evident here.

Putin did have a reason and it’s imperialism.

Putin didn't invade Ukraine in 2022 because he feared NATO. He invaded because he believed that NATO was weak, that his efforts to regain control of Ukraine by other means had failed, and that installing a pro-Russian government in Kyiv would be safe and easy. His aim was not to defend Russia against some non-existent threat but rather to expand Russia's power, eradicate Ukraine's statehood, and destroy NATO, goals he still pursues.

Also important to observe Putin is squarely in the driver's seat on this one.

He is holding most of the cards, including the good ones.

Washington, as chief sponsor to their proxy, has become the other relevant party too.

But they have limited options in this Biden-inherited/provoked debacle.

No one takes the Kyiv regime seriously, not in the Kremlin or on the other side of the puddle.

They are trying to flog off resources they don't even control like a 2 and 7 suit.

Capricciosa

KnightsOfCydoniaToday ,One point must be held to and that is Ukraine joins the European Union. 

I think Kremlin said somewhere before that eventual EU membership would be acceptable but NATO -no way. Guess EU is negotiable for them.

It was the people of Ukraine wanting to join the EU that started Maidan ending in Putin annexing Crimea and starting the civil war in the Donbas. Putin’s original invasion was all about the EU!

Sure, but it takes Crimea off the table. Without saying it, Russia would have to negotiate including Ukraine demands for Crimea as a starting point."

How could one seriously expect Crimea to be "on the table" in the first place? The population is overwhelmingly ethnically and politically pro-Russian. Zelenskyy has no cards. It was always a non-starter.

Because legally it’s still part of Ukraine and Ukrainians consider it Ukrainian. Now they may not be able to get it back straight away, but that doesn’t mean they need to relinquish sovereignty.

JJE

No one takes the Kyiv regime seriously, not in the Kremlin or on the other side of the puddle.

Which is why Putin made the mistake that his “Special Military Operation” would be over in a week.

He should have taken the Kyiv regime more seriously.

And he should now, as well.

Hegseth is a walking, talking advertisement for DEI. Any reasonably qualified minority or woman nominee would be preferable to this feckless, loud-mouthed weekend talk-show host with a penchant for getting drunk and abusing women. In MAGA world, that profile qualifies him for a "merit-based" position, even though he is completely unqualified and completely unfit.