Trump order makes some preachers ecstatic, others cringe

If I need my preacher to tell me how to vote, then I need to get an education.

Agree, what happened to 'separation of church and state'?

But than US money states ' in god we trust', etc since 1962.

Ooops, 1956.

Once again the left has to take things to the extreme. Either way, I think it's good that the freedoms and safety of all religions are upheld, especially the Christians that suffered immensely during the last 8 years in pretty much every possible way.

"Christians that suffered immensely during the last 8 years in pretty much every possible way."

Please enumerate them.

especially the Christians that suffered immensely during the last 8 years in pretty much every possible way

Especially the Christians? How did they suffer? I know you think Obama may be a Muslim, but he didn't introduce Saudi style repression of other faiths.

Are you referring to the Fox News war on Christmas complaints?

All tax free? So I could make a donation to a church based on who they are endorsing?

Looks like a last throw of the dice by the religious right. If you find you're losing badly, then why not change the rules? Problem is, it frees up the churches on the left, too, should they choose to to join in the ridiculous charade....

Especially the Christians? How did they suffer?

Are you referring to the Fox News war on Christmas complaints?

Dude, you and FOX, ROFL

@JC

Sure thing, homie.

https://publiusprime.com/2012/08/31/list-of-obamas-hostilities-toward-christianity/

@Bass

What so you think motivated Obama's supposed war on Christians? You stated that he's an atheist but could be a Muslim. Some on the lunatic fringe claimed he was the anti-Christ.

What do you think is the sanest explanation?

Christians that suffered immensely during the last 8 years in pretty much every possible way.

This statement is so grossly exaggerated that it is an insult to true Christians in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Nigeria, China and North Korea (who have really suffered or even died for their faith). Enough said.

What so you think motivated Obama's supposed war on Christians? You stated that he's an atheist but could be a Muslim. Some on the lunatic fringe claimed he was the anti-Christ.

Anything is possible.

This statement is so grossly exaggerated that it is an insult to true Christians in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Nigeria, China and North Korea (who have really suffered or even died for their faith). Enough said

This is very true, thanks for that correction, but I was mainly pointing out what has been going in the US

What so you think motivated Obama's supposed war on Christians? You stated that he's an atheist but could be a Muslim. Some on the lunatic fringe claimed he was the anti-Christ

"Anything is possible"

And you posted that it's the left taking things to the extreme on this issue.

the Christians that suffered immensely during the last 8 years in pretty much every possible way.

I think what bass is trying to articulate is how Obama tried to block fundamentalist and evangelical Christians from discriminating against those who are Muslim, LGBT, or seeking abortions or birth control. The Christian right are not interested in equal protections under law; they are bitter that their world view is not shared by all, that America is becoming something other than Leave it to Beaver, that their fiction of America as a Christian Nation is not, and has never been, true.

I don't blame Trump for this. He's just being taken for a ride by the Christian zealots in the GOP.

And you posted that it's the left taking things to the extreme on this issue.

Yeah, pretty much. I guess the Dems need to take a Zantac to help them through this grief.

I think what bass is trying to articulate is how Obama tried to block fundamentalist and evangelical Christians from discriminating against those who are Muslim, LGBT, or seeking abortions or birth control.

No, that's not what I meant, I already outlined and posted it. Try again. By the way, if a Christian family doesn't want to make a cake for a gay couple and they feel it violates their religious principles, then that's their right, even if we think it's vile, rude and homophobic, there are thousands of cake shops that would gladly take their business. The point is, leve the overly religious people with their beliefs alone. If I go anywhere or to any establishment that mistreats me, I go somewhere else end of story. Athiests believe what they want and Christians, Jews and Muslims believe the way they want, very simple.

The Christian right are not interested in equal protections under law; they are bitter that their world view is not shared by all, that America is becoming something other than Leave it to Beaver, that their fiction of America as a Christian Nation is not, and has never been, true.

What a bunch of twisted garbage, it's the Atheists that get offended over everything or anyone that shows an appreciation for religion, I could care less what anyone believes in, just don't get in my face and preach to me how I should think, feel or worship, it won't go down well. But at least thanks to Trump, people of religious faiths don't have to worry about being bullied anymore by radical progressives, so that's another victory lap for Trump.

I don't blame Trump for this. He's just being taken for a ride by the Christian zealots in the GOP.

ROFL, yeah, sure.

discriminating against those who are Muslim

Interesting that the right like to talk about religious liberty yet some of the same people were prepared to vote for a man who said a Muslim shouldn't be president.

Liberty? Maybe. Regarding people of other religions or none at all as equals? Nope.

This is evidenced in the fact that they used the terms Muslim and atheist to attack a politician they disagreed with.

When the GOP talk about religious liberty, it's very clear what they really mean.

Interesting that the right like to talk about religious liberty yet some of the same people were prepared to vote for a man who said a Muslim shouldn't be president. 

He said, as long as they swear alligance to the US, it wouldn't matter and I don't most Americans would mind either, we had a Cathoilc president, a Black one, they were open to having a woman president, but once again, the left is taking things to a whole new level of exaggeration.

Liberty? Maybe. Regarding people of other religions or none at all as equals? Nope. 

Well, that's your personal opinion, dude.

This is evidenced in the fact that they used the terms Muslim and atheist to attack a politician they disagreed with. 

Which is true, please don't conflate, that glove doesn't fit, Jim.

When the GOP talk about religious liberty, it's very clear what they really mean.

Yeah, the left once again, they tried to spin that lie with the gay, the Black and the women issue and still it didn't work and you guys just keep on trying. LOL

This is evidenced in the fact that they used the terms Muslim and atheist to attack a politician they disagreed with. 

"Which is true, please don't conflate, that glove doesn't fit, Jim."

What has 'conflate' got to do with anything here?

You and others on the right used the terms Muslim and atheist as derogatory terms against Obama. You clearly used these terms as personal attacks.

Why would you and others use these terms as personal attacks against a politician you despised if you didn't see anything negative about the terms themselves?

That's what I mean by not treating people as equals. I don't remember you using the term Christian as a form of abuse against Obama despite the fact this is what he identifies as.

What a bunch of twisted garbage, it's the Atheists that get offended over everything or anyone that shows an appreciation for religion, I could care less what anyone believes in, just don't get in my face and preach to me how I should think, feel or worship, it won't go down well. But at least thanks to Trump, people of religious faiths don't have to worry about being bullied anymore by radical progressives, so that's another victory lap for Trump.

Sorry Bass, but just because you don't like something, doesn't make it "twisted garbage." Yes, some athiests get too sensitive around "Merry Christmas" and the like, but Christians are way too sensitive.

Just look at the list you posted:

Just to highlight a few:

-He didn't attend national prayer breakfast.

-Obama illegally extends benefits to same sex partners.

-He violated the Defense of Marriage Act.

-He allowed gays to openly serve.

oh my god, horrific.

But, what is PubliusPrime? Seems to be a front rightwing, fundementalist group, wallbuilders. A group dedicated to "presenting America’s forgotten history and heroes, with an emphasis on the moral, religious, and constitutional foundation on which America was built – a foundation which, in recent years, has been seriously attacked and undermined. In accord with what was so accurately stated by George Washington, we believe that “the propitious [favorable] smiles of heaven can never be expected on a nation which disregards the eternal rules of order and right which heaven itself has ordained.”

By the way, if a Christian family doesn't want to make a cake for a gay couple and they feel it violates their religious principles, then that's their right, even if we think it's vile, rude and homophobic, there are thousands of cake shops that would gladly take their business

Question: What if it were a black couple? Would that be okay? Why or why not? Would you be okay with public stonings? Why or why not?

Personally, I do not care what one's religion is, but you've got no business shoving religion religion down the throats of my children, or setting up laws which clearly favor religious organizations.

What has 'conflate' got to do with anything here?

A lot.

You and others on the right used the terms Muslim and atheist as derogatory terms against Obama. You clearly used these terms as personal attacks. 

I never did, I just said, we don't know and we really don't.

Why would you and others use these terms as personal attacks against a politician you despised if you didn't see anything negative about the terms themselves? 

I never did, also I don't speak for others.

That's what I mean by not treating people as equals. I don't remember you using the term Christian as a form of abuse against Obama despite the fact this is what he identifies as.

I was more concerned with the way the last admin. was taking its war to undermine anyone that believed in Christianity or Judaism, but anyway, those days are over, so I'm happy. Now we all can be treated equally.

This is evidenced in the fact that they used the terms Muslim and atheist to attack a politician they disagreed with. 

"Which is true, please don't conflate, that glove doesn't fit, Jim."

I'll step in here again. I speak bassish, so I can translate.

Bass means that it is true that Obama is a Muslim and atheist, but the terms have never been used against him pejoratively. The Christian right and their GOP servants were merely stating facts.

I never did, I just said, we don't know and we really don't

You used these terms as a direct attempt to attack Obama personally. Even if we accept that you and others were saying this as a 'you never know' statement, you were still floating these ideas as a way of personally attacking a politician you despised. Saying Obama is definitely an atheist or a Muslim or just speculating about it doesn't change the fact that you used these terms in a negative way.

That's the point. A concrete claim or mere speculation doesn't change this.

No, that's not what I meant, put words in my mouth, missed dude.

but the terms have never been used against him pejoratively. The Christian right and their GOP servants were merely stating facts.

Prove it.

You used these terms as a direct attempt to attack Obama personally. Even if we accept that you and others were saying this as a 'you never know' statement, you were still floating these ideas as a way of personally attacking a politician you despised.

Sorry Bass, but just because you don't like something, doesn't make it "twisted garbage." Yes, some athiests get too sensitive around "Merry Christmas" and the like, but Christians are way too sensitive.

The extreme Christians are as well, that is correct. But just leave me alone if I say, "Merry Christmas" if you don't like it, you are not obliged to say anything back to me.

Just look at the list you posted:

Just to highlight a few:

He didn't attend national prayer breakfast.

His choice.

Obama illegally extends benefits to same sex partners.

Good move.

He allowed gays to openly serve.

Nothing wrong with that. If you are willing to die for your country, who your partner is is totally irrelevant.

oh my god, horrific. 

But, what is PubliusPrime? Seems to be a front rightwing, fundementalist group, wallbuilders. A group dedicated to "presenting America’s forgotten history and heroes, with an emphasis on the moral, religious, and constitutional foundation on which America was built – a foundation which, in recent years, has been seriously attacked and undermined. In accord with what was so accurately stated by George Washington, we believe that “the propitious [favorable] smiles of heaven can never be expected on a nation which disregards the eternal rules of order and right which heaven itself has ordained.” 

Ok, so you named a few idiots, that doesn't even remotely cover the thinking of the majority of conservative Americans. Just like the idiots of the Westboro church, talk about these radical unhinged loons.

I guess that's what's got you all happy there, huh Bass?

Anyway, the reality is, now all religions can be treated fairly and don't have to worry about persecution and that's a very good thing.

Anyway, the reality is, now all religions can be treated fairly

I wonder why many Muslims in the US feel petrified. The mother of Mr Khan suffered a bit of abuse from Trump too. The people caught up in his failed travel ban don't seem to share in this sense of fairness.

You mean Christians can look forward to having their privileges restored?

I wonder why many Muslims in the US feel petrified.

Dunno, how the thousands of Muslims that live peacefully, safely and securly in Washington or in California and NY?

The mother of Mr Khan suffered a bit of abuse from Trump too.

The Christian Muslims of Egypt and the Yazidis also couldn't understand why the Obama did nothing to stop the slaughter of thousands of them, men, women and children.

The people caught up in his failed travel ban don't seem to share in this sense of fairness. 

That's ok, I understand, but as long as the travel ban is up and running and the people are detained, if they did nothing wrong and pass clearance, they'll be on their way, sure, it's a bit of an inconvenience, but that's life.

You mean Christians can look forward to having their privileges restored?

It has been.

There should be a very clear separation of religion and state which is being clouded again by Trump's order. Guess he was having a slow news day.

I agree, but sadly, that wasn't the case as I have outlined in an earlier post as to what the Christians in the States have been going through, so it was a good move on Trump's part, so hopefully, we can really have a separation of Church and State and leave worshippers alone.

Anyway, the reality is, now all religions can be treated fairly and don't have to worry about persecution and that's a very good thing.

If by fairly, you mean giving religious organizations privileges that don't extend to other tax-exempt organizations, perhaps. I'm not sure where the persecution comes in.

so you named a few idiots, that doesn't even remotely cover the thinking of the majority of conservative Americans.

So why did you post a link to this group?

just leave me alone if I say, "Merry Christmas" if you don't like it, you are not obliged to say anything back to me.

How often does this honestly come up? Hats off to Bill O'Reilly for re-manufacturing this "crisis". Is this your prime example of how Christians in America have been persecuted?

@bass

I'm not gonna take this "list" seriously when it uses terms like 'radical homosexual rights'. The website is obviously ridiculously biased and by far most of the points boils down to "Obama isn't acting Christian enough!" There is no Christian suffering in it and you haven't proven your point.

Ok, so you named a few idiots, that doesn't even remotely cover the thinking of the majority of conservative Americans. Just like the idiots of the Westboro church, talk about these radical unhinged loons.

No Bass, I didn't name a few loons. When asked how Christians have suffered under the Obama Administration, you posted the following link as proof:

https://publiusprime.com/2012/08/31/list-of-obamas-hostilities-toward-christianity/

i quoted directly from YOUR, and surprisingly we agree with gays being allowed to serve, and with gays being entitled to the same benefits as straight couples. Great. But, your link clearly listed these as some of the ways Christians have suffered under Obama.

By the way, your link matches this site (https://wallbuilders.com/americas-biblically-hostile-u-s-president/) verbatim. A quick exploration of this site shows that this group is committed to: "(1) educating the nation concerning the Godly foundation of our country; (2) providing information to federal, state, and local officials as they develop public policies which reflect Biblical values; and (3) encouraging Christians to be involved in the civic arena." https://wallbuilders.com/about-us/

Scrolling down a bit further and you read the leaders of this organization are a trio of current and former GOP legislators and a Judge, all supporters of Donald Trump. Folks that think like this a clearly not neglible part of the Trump fan base.

But, you say you do not agree with these views. Good, I'm glad. But, for the sake of discussion, could specifically point out the ways you feel Christians suffered under the Obama administration?

The politicization of the Church

The Pope need not hold back next time he visits

How often does this honestly come up? Hats off to Bill O'Reilly for re-manufacturing this "crisis". Is this your prime example of how Christians in America have been persecuted?

which was true.

I'm not gonna take this "list" seriously.

Then don't, I'm cool with it.

No Bass, I didn't name a few loons. When asked how Christians have suffered under the Obama Administration, you posted the following link as proof:

Yeah, I remember, I posted it.

i quoted directly from YOUR, and surprisingly we agree with gays being allowed to serve, and with gays being entitled to the same benefits as straight couples. Great. But, your link clearly listed these as some of the ways Christians have suffered under Obama. 

Which they have been.

Scrolling down a bit further and you read the leaders of this organization are a trio of current and former GOP legislators and a Judge, all supporters of Donald Trump.

So what. Has nothing to do with Trump. If the BLM support Obama, it has nothing to do with him, presidents don't have control over a few loons that support them, on the right or the left. People can't do or support whomever they want. I'm just glad it was signed, that's all I care about.

But, you say you do not agree with these views. Good, I'm glad. But, for the sake of discussion, could specifically point out the ways you feel Christians suffered under the Obama administration?

Again??

http://dailysignal.com/2016/10/27/federal-judge-asks-why-obama-administration-isnt-admitting-christian-syrian-refugees/

I believe that everyone has the right to free speech, first and foremost. If the church wishes to support one group over another, I'm not sure that it will matter if they are not technically allowed to espouse their views. If the people attending the sermons don't like it, they can complain to the head of the church, or stop going to that particular church.

However, this does lead to opening up the educational system to political views. I'm wondering what people think of that? Should teachers then be allowed to open up politics in the classroom? Maybe that's not a bad thing.

Oh bass, bass, bass.

From your link -

The Daily Signal exists as an alternative to the mainstream media.

We know what that means, don't we?

Check your facts, bass.

Christian Refugees 'Unfairly' Kept Out? - FactCheck.org

It’s true that relatively few Syrian Christians have been accepted into the U.S. as refugees. But officials at the United Nations refugee program say fewer Christians from Syria have registered seeking resettlement.....many Syrian Christians have friends or family in Lebanon, and have found safe refuge there.....the overwhelming majority of those seeking resettlement from Syria are Sunni Muslims....To date, though, Trump has provided no evidence that the lower figures are because Syrian Christians have “been horribly treated” in the refugee process.

The form submitted did not originate from the expected site

The form submitted did not originate from the expected site

We know what that means, don't we?

We do?

Check your facts, bass.

I always do.

Christian Refugees 'Unfairly' Kept Out? - FactCheck.org

Sorry, Because FactCheck.org which is run a a bunch of left loons, I'm buying it? Come on.

http://nypost.com/2016/12/16/facebook-under-fire-for-picking-liberal-outlets-to-fact-check/

It’s true that relatively few Syrian Christians have been accepted into the U.S. as refugees.

Thank you.

But officials at the United Nations refugee program say fewer Christians from Syria have registered seeking resettlement.....

Now you're quoting the UN??? Wow! Cleo!!

Trump has provided no evidence that the lower figures are because Syrian Christians have “been horribly treated” in the refugee process.

Anyway, the the religious Christian and Yazidi minorities should have had first priority and the last administration did nothing about it, sure, I feel for any refugees that's being persecuted, but the minority Christians in these Muslim countries were being slaughtered and we had every obligation to help them. Well, at least now we don't have to worry about that ever happening again, that's all I care about.

which was true.

No it wasn't. It was a nonsensical story about people not being allowed to say "Merry Christmas." Hardly the same as Christians being tortured around the world.

Yeah, I remember, I posted it.

So, you must also remember the trash on that site about Obama being a Kenyan Muslim, right? You've already said that story is garbage and you never got on board that ship. You've also said that, contrary to that site, you believe gays should be allowed in the military and have the same rights as gay couples. So, it'd be fair to say that site isn't an accurate site, wouldn't it?

So what. Has nothing to do with Trump.

Rightttttt,,,, its just pure coincidence rightwing loons, neo-Nazis, and klansmen flock to Trump.

I'm just glad it was signed, that's all I care about.

Yeah, because Christians had so tough. The last 8 years of not being able to shove fundamentalist garbage down the throats of school kids was rough. How did you ever manage?

Again??

No, not again. The link you posted before was a convoluted mess. You claimed that Obama treated Christians poorly, and the link you provided cited Obama's defunding of "abstinence only" education as proof. That is absurd. So, is this link. The heritage foundation? Come on.

I always do.

No you don't, and that's been well established here.

Check your facts, bass.

"I always do."

I think it's a question of how you check your facts and which sources you use. I, like Bass, don't trust things like polls 100% and prefer the views of non-partisan sources. For example. Bass mentioned non-partisan historians who concluded the Bush years were a success despite the polls which saw it as the worst administration since WW2 apart from Nixon's. He refused to provide any names or links but he claims it as fact.

These sources are available to us all. Maybe.

No it wasn't.  Yeah, it was.

http://opinionzone.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2016/12/15/why-cant-we-say-merry-christmas-anymore-without-offending-people/

So, you must also remember the trash on that site about Obama being a Kenyan Muslim, right? 

If he were a Muslim, is that a bad thing? Who cares? I think you guys on the left are more obsessed with thinking that the right is so outraged about that. I personally don't know anyone that thinks that way. It was the policy, not the man they despised.

You've already said that story is garbage and you never got on board that ship. You've also said that, contrary to that site, you believe gays should be allowed in the military and have the same rights as gay couples. So, it'd be fair to say that site isn't an accurate site, wouldn't it?

No, it was very accurate, I just gave my personal opinion on that matter.

Rightttttt,,,, its just pure coincidence rightwing loons, neo-Nazis, and klansmen flock to Trump

They are allowed to support anyone they like, vile as these people are, they have rights as well.

No, not again. The link you posted before was a convoluted mess.

You are allowed to have that opinion

You claimed that Obama treated Christians poorly, and the link you provided cited Obama's defunding of "abstinence only" education as proof. That is absurd. So, is this link. The heritage foundation? Come on.

As I stated, these are recorded situations where Obama did these things. Can't erase history.

No you don't.

Yes, I do. I don't lie and I never had fear or any anxieties for running away from the truth, don't roll like that.

We do?

Yes bass, we do.

I always do.

Sorry, I should have chosen my words more carefully. Check the facts, bass. Not your facts, the facts.

facebook-under-fire-for-picking-liberal-outlets-to-fact-check

Look at who is doing the firing, bass. The likes of Breitbart News, the Daily Caller and MRC? Middle-of-the-road, unbiased, nonpartisan and objective every one of them. Not.

*the minority Christians in *these Muslim countries

Syria is now a plural country?

now we don't have to worry about that ever happening again

Because Trump signed a piece of paper that says churches in America can publicly endorse political positions without losing their tax-free status? How do you work that one out, bass? You think all those religious bodies are going to use their new-found political freedom to rise en masse and save their brethren in forn lands? Instead of, as your previous 'oh those poor Christians' link outlined, hatin' on gays, birth control and any religion that isn't Christianity?

The form submitted did not originate from the expected site

So I could start my own church, get tax free donations, and give sermons about politics? Yeah, it's just a matter of time before that gets abused, like the 503c fiasco.

People in the US who identify as Christian are falling, so the whole "why am I persecuted?" thing will continue to play out as Christians lose their special pedestal. It won't be pretty.

People in the US who identify as Christian are falling, so the whole "why am I persecuted?" thing will continue to play out as Christians lose their special pedestal. It won't be pretty.

True, but it's going to take awhile, you and I won't be there to witness it.

This is a pretty funny video, but you might not be able to watch it out of region: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x45ju2n.

It's from SNL, a video short about a woman who simply wants to deny basic good and services to homosexuals because of her faith. Since she can't, it's evidence that she's being persecuted in America for her faith. The only way she can be truly free as a Christian American is if she can discriminate, and the godless liberals are seen as stripping away her rights by making her break eggs and mix them into a bowl for a gay couple.

Fear like this is pretty routine for the GOP and it does a great job getting right wingers to come out and vote. ObamaCare will bring about the end of America, Christians are persecuted, they're coming for your guns, white males are the victims of discrimination....but if you vote for me, I'll save you. It's a lot more dramatic than telling people to vote because your economic plan is more favorable.

Fear like this is pretty routine for the GOP and it does a great job getting right wingers to come out and vote.

Both sides play into stereotypes and fears and will use whatever social position is dearest to their constituents.

ObamaCare will bring about the end of America, Christians are persecuted,

Pretty much

they're coming for your guns, white males are the victims of discrimination....but if you vote for me, I'll save you.

Again, right on the mark, but make NO illusion, it's not about throwing us a lifeline, it's about restoring religious freedoms and dialing down the rhetoric on progressive PC.

One more executive order

I do hope Trump won't complain when Saudi-funded mosques start campaigning for Democratic candidates.

I seriously doubt that.

I think if the left wouldn't try to hijack the religion topic and distort words from conservatives the left could breath a sigh of relief understanding this is something that was needed.

"especially the Christians that suffered immensely during the last 8 years in pretty much every possible way."

Fake news. Sad.