Trump seeks 20% tax on imports from Mexico to pay for wall; summit with Mexican leader falls through

Tariffs are paid by the consumers, not the exporting nation

So if there's tariff, it's still the American consumers who are paying the tax

https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-trump-threatens-send-u-234404938.html

Trump threatened to invade Mexico, and no one is talking about it. It is as if no one wants to believe it really happened.

Irony is that Trump imposing tariffs on Mexico will raise prices and make goods unaffordable to those who supported him the most.

And if you are dead wrong?

You first.

And the scoreboard reads Mexico president 1, US president 0.

So America is leaving WTO, OK.

Why SHOULD Mexico be made to pay anyway? Imagine you're a homeowner with a neighbour who's kids keeping kicking their ball into your garden. You could always build a higher fence... but would you make your neighbour pay for it?

Oh, and his comment last night... beautiful clean coal.... what? The man's an idiot.

He's got the leftists, globalists and Islamists shitting their pants. The three biggest dangers to secular modern western civilization. This is great.

Mexico exports to the US was $316.4 in 2015, America exports to Mexico about 50billion less. Any tax imposed by the US will almost certainly be imposed by Mexico. America is assuming that when the tax is imposed Mexico will continue to import the same amount of good into the US which is unlikely. Theyll likely source them from a cheaper third country without the tariffs. That 50billion deficit will shrink dramatically meaning less tax for Trumps wall. Whichever way you look at it big business in the US are not going to like this, there will be heavy lobbying of congress as we speak, good luck getting you tariffs passed in congress President Orange. Your wall will only be paid for by Mexico with large job losses both in the US and Mexico

How do Trump supporters think forcing another country to pay for a construction project of America's own choosing will earn respect for the USA?

Because the money that illegals send back is Mexico's biggest cash source, biggest foreign income and a massive wealth transfer out of America which the president is obviously not discouraging as he should.

How do Trump supporters think forcing another country to pay for a construction project of America's own choosing will earn respect for the USA?

"For we must consider that we shall be as a city upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us."

-- John Winthrop

Apparently not anymore.

We havent really even discussed that the wall will also have a positive impact on stopping more heroin/meth from coming across the border. Mexico is corrupt in this area and refuses to/cant deal with the drug cartels.

It would be naive in the extreme to suggest that Mexican drug cartels are going to be unable to contrive a way of getting drugs from one side of a wall to the other.

I don't know much about the WTO. Can you go more into this?

See here: https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/who_we_are_e.htm

Trump can't make Mexico pay for wall, full stop. Just a silly man cutting his nose off to spite his face.

We havent really even discussed that the wall will also have a positive impact on stopping more heroin/meth from coming across the border. Mexico is corrupt in this area and refuses to/cant deal with the drug cartels. El Chapo escaped twice due to corruption and had to finally be sent to the USA.

Trump put the Mexican president in a bad position, with the dont come if you arent paying for the wall comment, yes. But why would he put him in a good position? this is a negotiation and the guy has refused to even negotiate unless it is a deal that benefits Mexico the most, and has been publicly hostile despite his 12% approval rating. He said he wont and that seems to be the final answer, so what else is there to talk about?

He actually said the primary benefit of Mexico to the USA is that they deport all the illegal Central Americans before they get to the US border. Even more reason to build a wall so that if Mexico decides they dont want to help anymore, the wall can stop those people too. And whats the fear about vegetables? USA is suddenly incapable of growing those? I dont get it....

So you're saying we should keep NAFTA and keep our borders open that would make you guys on the left feel emotionally better? Let's just keep the open border madness.

Easy there, no need to get emotional.

Its debatable whether the US should withdraw from NAFTA and impose tarrifs on Mexican imports, but any decision on that should be the result of careful consideration of the economic costs and benefits of such a trade policy.

What US trade policy should NOT be driven by is the need to satisfy Trump's off the cuff promise to make Mexico pay for his new wall, which has nothing to do with trade.

This isn't about emotions or whatever you think Trump critics are driven by - its driven by a concern over actual (not atlernative) facts. Nobody is going to win in a trade war with Mexico - yeah it will hurt Mexicans more than Americans but it will still cost American jobs. If the payoff were worth it then it might still be OK, but there is no payoff in this instance , its just being argued in order to feed Trump's ego. Why should such a course of action be taken without any public (or even private) discussion of the consequences?

Had to scroll do much to get down here, I'm thinking of suing Japan Times for thumb arthritis symptoms. Burning Bush way above says "American unions should be all for this." Till we find out who's in the unions.

Now here we are just a week in and this delusional idea is on the brink of being the cause of a trade war with Mexico, the destruction of NAFTA and god only knows whatever other consequences flow from that.

So you're saying we should keep NAFTA and keep our borders open that would make you guys on the left feel emotionally better? Let's just keep the open border madness.

Well, we'll know within a couple of years. I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised though.

And if you are dead wrong?

Good luck to the people in the United States who suffer this clown Trump acting on his promises so early in his term in office, promising his 'wall' and making the Mexicans pay for it with a cross-the-board tariff.

Well, walls do not materialise over night, though a tariff can. So good luck with said tariff in the short term with nothing to show for it except vitriolic hatred of gringos by people south of the border.

More significant is the this early display of a Trumpy tendency to make partisan, unilateral, one-sided demands with little or no forewarning on other nations without the slightest sign of having thought it through. For instance a demand on Japan to pay for bases financed how, by a tariff on Japanese cars? Insane as it may seem, there are already signs of this kind of logic in the wall-financing tariff.

It is all so very bad for their business anyway trying to deter people outside with these kinds of prohibitive postures and gestures. Yeah, good luck with that people in America, with a president claiming to do what is best for Americans.

The Russians and the Chinese probably probably cannot keep the glee off their faces.

So this wall and Mexico paying for it started off as some random thought that popped into Trump's head, and then escaped via his mouth, during the campaign without any sort of logical thinking over.

Now here we are just a week in and this delusional idea is on the brink of being the cause of a trade war with Mexico, the destruction of NAFTA and god only knows whatever other consequences flow from that.

All of which are to be incurred by the American and Mexican public solely to make the United States do what Trump's stream of conscious verbal diarrhea committed him to making it do last year.

I seriously worry about where this idiot is going to take the world in the next four years. Wherever it is, we are all going to be left worse off.

That's not going to happen, they need us more than we need them, watch and see.

Well, we'll know within a couple of years. I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised though.

I disagree. The only way the world is going to show America that we aren't willing to work with a Trumpian America, is to refuse to deal with him.

That's not going to happen, they need us more than we need them, watch and see.

Sure, it will cause problems for the countries that refuse to deal with him, but the alternative is showing America that we are willing to accept his BS. Remember, he was elected on a policy of draining the swamp, well to the rest of the world, he is the swamp that needs draining. And we need to work together towards that end.

Good luck with that. Pie in the sky.

The worst possible thing that could happen is that he is successful in his presidency. It would create an environment where America would think that a president like him is a good idea, and we'd get repeat after repeat (maybe not one after another, but regularly).

One can only hope!!

It's time to isolate America. It's what they themselves want, so lets give it to them.

I would love to see Europe take care of the UN, NATO, and where are they going to get a lot of supplies for their military, defense, who's going to oppose Russia when it flexes its muscles in Europe, who will protect Japan, I could make a long list of how dead the rest of the world would be without the US, it's not even worth the time. But the main thing is now, we don't have a weak president and things will change and the US is making it a priority to take care of itself first and the rest of the world can either accept it or not. But this stupid notion that other countries will turn their back on the US is laughable as well as suicidal.

@Superlib - Actually it looks like Trump TWEETED what you said (which I was unaware of). In this case I agree with you that there was no reason for President Trump to say that (actually my feeling is stronger and I think Trump is a complete idiot for putting this on Twitter) As I have said several times before someone needs to take away his Twitter account. In this case they are both acting foolishly. Nothing can be accomplished if these guys do not sit down and talk.

This does not change my stance that some type of improvement in our border protection is required. The fact that border agents indicate a wall (or partial wall) will make their job and lives much easier makes me believe that at this should be considered. Should Mexico pay? If they are willing to help curb illegal border crossings, no. If they are unwilling to assist in curbing illegal border crossings than yes.

In the past the Mexican Govt. actually helped and encouraged illegal border crossings (this was reported in the NY Times, not Breitbart) which I do not find becoming of a good neighbor.

I haven't been saying much because I've been very busy... and I will probably not be posting much for quite a while because of how busy I've been.

But I will say this. 2018 Congressional/Senate votes will help settle his hash (If he's not impeached by then). It's not what Trump does for me... its HOW he does it that I and other people are having issues with. Many of us unaffiliated voters can understand he's not really the right person to be doing the job of POTUS. Why does it seem one has to be extreme in how they do things that the far right think that this the best way to do things? Establishment partisan politicking to the extreme.

Bass, Lizz, etc... the rug is going to be pulled out from under you and your hardcore partisan fanaticism. Not all who voted for (or against) Trump were for partisan lines. They only wanted change, and thought that somehow Trump would bring change. Fall for sweetly said lies, and then the reality of consequences will bite you back. Not the fantasy consequences, but the real consequences.

My mother voted for Trump. For the simple fact that she didn't comprehend politics, or pay much attention to what was really going on around her. Only reason she voted for him was the overly simplistic view that he would stand against abortion, and Hillary was for it. She also is a baby-boomer, and a veteran. As she uses the VA for her health and therapeutic services, I wonder how she's going to react to the issues that will arise at the VA can't fill the 45,000 positions they need due to Trumps current federal hiring freeze. That is just one example of what's going to not turn out the way Trump supporters thought they would.

Oh, and see how much certain produce and products will go up in price. Better learn to pay more for some tomatoes, avacados, guacamole, melons, and more. You get what you ask for, just not quite the way you expect. Monkey's paw logic.

Trump's words:. ''If Mexico is unwilling to pay for the badly needed wall, then it would be better to cancel the upcoming meeting."

There was no reason to say that. He needlessly made Nieto's decision exponentially more difficult, especially with the political climate in Mexico. It needlessly antagonized the situation between us and an ally and reduced the relationship to a single issue.

Trump made a mistake here. Now I'm worried he will escalate it.

It's working!! he has already stopped at least one Mexican (and his entourage) from coming to the US. ;)

Trump should put a tax on all money wire transfers to Mexico instead the US losses tons of greenbacks because of the illegals.

@SuperLib - Can you point me to a reference showing that Trump actually put those conditions on the meeting? Did Trump say "Do not bother coming unless you will pay for the wall?". If he actually said it is a blunder on his part. I did not see that in this article.

Trump effectively put conditions on meeting when he said don't bother unless you are paying for the wall. It was a diplomatic blunder by an inexperienced leader.

""it seems there is no place for us non DT unconditional haters/lovers on forums such as JT's nor for ppl who may disagree with Trump's stand/decision on a particular topic yet see where he is coming from.""

""I don't know - I don't always agree with your guys' posts, but I often do as well, and think you give a good balanced perspective. Don't let extremists scare you off.""

I have always felt this way as well. It seems most people here are solidly planted in one camp or the other. Reminds me of when one of my friends called me a right wing radical for opposing the Affordable Care Act even though in the same sentence I indicated I am for a single payer system.

Anyway, the idea of isolating the U.S. may sound nice but in reality it will not happen and it is all about the money (as usual). The US GDP is 18 Trillion, followed by China at 11 Trillion, Japan at 4.1 Trillion, Germany at 3.4 Trillion and the UK at 2.9 Trillion. Strangerland I am not sure which country you come from. I am from the U.S. and live in Japan (long time). I do not consider myself an extreme nationalist but I take issue with folks wanting my country to fail and I do not want to see other countries fail either. Whether people like it or not and whether it is right or not the isolation of the U.S. would have immense global implications. This is a statement based on mathematics and not "chest pounding".

Pena Nieto should have cast the ego aside and met with Trump AND similarly Trump needs to cast his ego aside and keep his mouth shut sometimes. The U.S. does hold the better hand in this deal. As someone else pointed out Pena Nieto's approval ratings are really, really bad.

It is still January of President Trump's first term. It will be interesting to see what happens (or more so what does not happen) once the mechanisms of the U.S. government start to grind.

Personally I think Trump has backed himself into a corner with his continuous statements that we will build a wall and make Mexico pay. Now he is trying to show people he was serious about his statement. The better move by Pena Nieto would have been to meet with Trump and simply state that this is not acceptable to Mexico and perhaps offer a counter proposal. I think this would have gone along ways with other world leaders and with his own citizens. Trump, on the other hand has already put his foot in his mouth.

Running countries is nothing like running a business. It is much more complex and requires a level of diplomacy few people have. An example of this is Reagan. He was a very imperfect President but he managed to get along with all world leaders and even was able to exhibit some level of humility while maintaining very strong positions. Trump is nowhere near this.

Likewise the U.S. President can cause a lot of mischief but in the end his or her power is limited by the checks and balances of the U.S. system. All other Presidents before President Trump have either learned this lesson before taking office or learned while in office. I believe President Trump will eventually learn the same lesson as well.

it seems there is no place for us non DT unconditional haters/lovers on forums such as JT's nor for ppl who may disagree with Trump's stand/decision on a particular topic yet see where he is coming from.

I don't know - I don't always agree with your guys' posts, but I often do as well, and think you give a good balanced perspective. Don't let extremists scare you off.

Someone finally said it out loud! Thats cool if you arent American, but if you are, you should revisit that thought.

I'm not, but I feel the same for Americans. If Trump does well, then they are the ones who are going to have to live with copycats forever, and all the crap that comes along with that.

Do you know the Mexican president has an approval rating of 12%. So does he even have a mandate from his own people to refuse to even meet with Trump?

I bet his actions opposing Trump will give him a boost.

That will never, ever happen, not if these countries want to cut their own throats.

Imagine if someone said that to the US. The right would freak out. What makes you think other countries won't take such threats to heart?

The more Americans make comments like that, the less the world is going to want to treat with them. The right is going to chest-bump their way into irrelevance.

¡Arriba, Arriba!

¡Peña Nieto makes Trump Piñata!

I don't know why everyone is so upset. I was assured right here on this site by Steven Lee, an editor of economics and sometimes writer that "there is no deadweight loss" from tariffs and that all this talk of damage from tariffs is just so much neoclassical economics nonsense that "does not apply anymore." If we are to believe him, well, we are entering a new reality where everything is different from the way it has been since David Ricardo was teaching 20 year olds for money.

Of course, simple common sense and elementary economic analysis tell us what will REALLY happen if you impose tariffs like this on a major trading partner. Trump's mistake is believing that Mexican people will be paying for his "wall." The truth is that it will be American consumers. Everyone who ever believed that NAFTA was a bad thing will now get a chance to see life without NAFTA, and let's say life ANTI-NAFTA as tariffs rise and trade breaks down between the US and its NUMBER ONE TRADING PARTNER.

How wonderful to force the Mexican government to deal with this along with all kinds of repatriated Mexican people at the same time it has to address problems with drug lords and everything else. Poor Mexico. So far from God and so close the the USA.

I am sorry to tell Mexico that I very much want Trump to do exactly as he says because this is doomed to failure, and it will show the world once and for all that Trump and people like Steven Lee have no idea what they are talking about. And let's not forget to add this. Hillary Clinton would never have done this. We might as well start keeping score because Hillary would have managed and improved the status quo. She would not have gone about wrecking it as Trump is doing.

Just as an addendum, let's be clear about the mechanics. A 20% tariff on all imports from Mexico will raise prices of all goods from Mexico to the US in the short term. Consumers will not have much choice but to pay that. In the medium term, some substitution will occur. Maybe production will be moved back to the US, or maybe the US will simply import from Brazil, Chile, Canada, Venezuela, or South Africa, depending on the product. Maybe overall production in Mexico will fall. But all of those new sources of products will be more costly than just doing business as usual in Mexico, and American consumers and companies will pay for that LOSS and be no better off for it. That is a deadweight loss. There is no reason whatsoever to expect that this will improve US employment. Can you name five countries where you would rather produce auto parts than the US? I sure can.

This is a man who can't make money from casinos. Think about what kind of genius can't keep a casino from going bankrupt. But, you know "Hillary is just as bad." Right everybody?

The silver lining from all of this is that I am going to get some cheap avocadoes and tomatoes out of the deal. I can make up some guacamole for dipping while I watch all these idiots burn it all down.

Does this also include all the component exports that are sent to the US to be manufactured into something else? And as usual this isn't taking into accont where exactly value is being added in the manufacturing process (almost always the US). If so, almost everything is going to be more expensive for US consumers as it's doubtful companies are going to swallow 20% rather than pass it on

Let the trade wars of old begin anew! Trump's going to bankrupt the nation like he has all his businesses,

Outright lie.

and while HE profits from it

How? Be specific, don't just throw bones out.

the only successful wall he'll have built is one around the US that has choked off its survival. At this rate, there's no way the nation will survive his presidency,

In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.

if he's allowed to run the full term.

He will, don't worry.

Other nations ought to start working together with the realization that the US is a lost cause. Let it die, and hopefully rise again having learned its lesson.

That will never, ever happen, not if these countries want to cut their own throats.

Trump's band of screaming white trash will all be unemployed within two years, except hte mega-rich, ultra-right, and who will they cry to then? They will only have themselves to blame.

That sounded very racist.

I think the best possible benefit that will come out of a Trump American presidency, is that we're going to see other countries working together and banding together against an Trump-led America. Imagine seeing countries who were once enemies now finding out that an enemy of their enemy can be their friend.

No country has ever taxed itself into prosperity. Throwing around excessive tariffs and $30 billion invoices will have a massive negative impact on the US economy. To think that it won't is to fool yourself.

The worst possible thing that could happen is that he is successful in his presidency.

Someone finally said it out loud! Thats cool if you arent American, but if you are, you should revisit that thought.

Also, the other side seems to love approval ratings. Do you know the Mexican president has an approval rating of 12%. So does he even have a mandate from his own people to refuse to even meet with Trump?

As far as low salary workers, I want them out. This is why: My previous employer pays below market wages for the job, How can they? because they know foreigners from other countries will work for less. Why? Because their culture is that they dont mind to live 6-8 people from multiple families in one house whereas my culture values having your own house for your own family. So they can afford to work cheap because rent per worker is 15,000 yen not 150,000 yen.

So anyone who asks for a pay raise is threatened to be replaced by someone cheaper, and the sad part is that the company actually can do that. So everyone had to accept bare minimum salary or be replaced by a person with lower standards of living. If these people were not here, then companies would have to pay market rate salaries and workers would have money to spend in the economy instead of having to stay home most days.

I think some people are confusing "don't pass counterproductive immigrations laws" with "don't pass immigration laws." Just because we don't support something that is wasteful doesn't mean we want open borders. Take the $10 billion and put it towards other immigration enforcement if you want to.

@tokyoengr, for what it's worth I thought your initial post was balanced and pretty spot on (I 'plussed' you for it, yep that was me haha!).

Problem is DT is such a polarising figure that it seems there is no place for us non DT unconditional haters/lovers on forums such as JT's nor for ppl who may disagree with Trump's stand/decision on a particular topic yet see where he is coming from. There is little doubt DT wouldn't be potus and no one would be talking about a silly/ineffective wall if Mexico had done a better job controlling their borders (north and south). DT's rise is partly due to others failure.

The biggest obstacle for Trump, I am afraid, will be WTO.

I don't know much about the WTO. Can you go more into this? I'm interested to know more.

The biggest obstacle for Trump, I am afraid, will be WTO.

So now Mexico is saying Mexico First.

Good for Mexico.

Anyways, it's weird how Republicans have been so against raising the minimum-wage, as it will drive up costs to small businesses, supposedly putting them out of business, but are suddenly ok with increasing wages by kicking out the people who work for low wages. What about the businesses who will be put out of business by the increased overhead? Should they pass it on to the consumer? But then everyone will see higher prices, is that ok?

To be honest, I think that could be the part that sinks the Trump presidency. People are fine with idealism, idolism, and rhetoric, until they actually start feeling the crunch. Then suddenly they aren't going to be so happy with America first, as America won't be first.

Let the trade wars of old begin anew! Trump's going to bankrupt the nation like he has all his businesses, and while HE profits from it, the only successful wall he'll have built is one around the US that has choked off its survival. At this rate, there's no way the nation will survive his presidency, if he's allowed to run the full term. Other nations ought to start working together with the realization that the US is a lost cause. Let it die, and hopefully rise again having learned its lesson. Trump's band will all be unemployed within two years, except hte mega-rich, ultra-right, and who will they cry to then? They will only have themselves to blame.

@Attilathehungry - The end of your post you stated, "Sadly, the most vulnerable Americans are the ones who are most hurt by illegal immigration- high school graduates with no higher education, students, recent legal immigrants. The ones who benefit are the employers who get to exploit their vulnerability. That's not good for anyone."

This is quite true actually. And the employers are in fact exploiting the vulnerability of those in the country illegally.

One other point: The issue I have with Trump is similar to some (not all) of the climate change folks.

If Trump believes so strongly in this he needs to "walk the walk". He should have all his products made in the U.S. and also ensure his resorts employ not only those in the U.S. legally but go a step further...U.S. citizens (not those from Eastern Europe on a work program)....I am not holding my breath waiting for him to do this.

The analogy to climate change folks...is ....This is similar to Al Gore, DiCaprio, etc. If they believe so strongly in something they also need to give up their private jets.

I make this analogy to clarify this is not a political statement against Trump...rather a statement against the "elite's" do as I say not as I do mentality.

Pena Nieto should have at least sat at the table with President Trump and presented his counter proposal. He would have garnered more support in Congress if he did so (not all Republicans agree with Trump on this issue).

I disagree. The only way the world is going to show America that we aren't willing to work with a Trumpian America, is to refuse to deal with him. Sure, it will cause problems for the countries that refuse to deal with him, but the alternative is showing America that we are willing to accept his BS. Remember, he was elected on a policy of draining the swamp, well to the rest of the world, he is the swamp that needs draining. And we need to work together towards that end.

The worst possible thing that could happen is that he is successful in his presidency. It would create an environment where America would think that a president like him is a good idea, and we'd get repeat after repeat (maybe not one after another, but regularly).

It's time to isolate America. It's what they themselves want, so lets give it to them.

It doesn't mean Mexican goods will cut profit by 20%? How does Mexico pay for the wall? The U.S. consumers do.

So now Mexico is saying Mexico First.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/25/politics/trump-mexico-visiting-delegation/index.html

if this is the case, perfect reason to cancel the meeting. I dont need anyone coming to my office saying they wont agree to the deal I have proposed (pay for the wall) and also are coming to only do deals that benefit them. So dont come, Trump is correct.

As far as trade/trade war it appears true that the USA is operating at a 60 billion dollar deficit in trade with Mexico, while Canada only has a 9 billion dollar deficit. So this needs to be renegotiated anyway, separate of immigration.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-calls-us-mexico-trade-one-sided-heres-the-reality-2017-01-26

FYI, illegal immigration has been on a steady decline in the US for well over a decade. Oh, snap! Didn't know that? Hmph... I'm not the least bit surprised.

From Mexico, that's right, but not from El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras it's actually gone up, way up.

Get educated. Learn a bit about how complex systems work and how distilling the immigration "issue" (coff! coff!) into something so trite and infantile as a "sovereignty" issue really makes very little sense against the backdrop of how much immigrants actually drive our economy.

So as a typical liberal, we should excuse law breakers and give them a chance, forgive their transgressions? Oh, why am I not surprised? The law is the law and if you break the law, there are penalties, pure and simple.

.

And Mexico will add a 30% import tax from USA goods.

In 2014, Mexico shipped $291B to the USA, while the USA shipped just $194B to Mexico. http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/mex/

In the end, the US consumer/taxpayer will be screwed.

Let me make a quick synopsis of every Trump thread since he started the job.

He said he will do X. (He cant do that, its racist or another appropriate buzzword) He repeats he will do it, so that changes to he wont do X (he is lying) Then he signs a bill to order X (Well he isnt really ordering it, just following law already there) But he cant do that. (but he can, its within his powers as President to order if a law exists already) Now that it is ordered to happen, there is no detailed plan (so he releases a plan) But he wont get funding from Congress (Congress says they are working on the funding now) That plan wont work for (whichever excuse/give up/cant do attitude someone wants to push). It gets done and it has the intended affect of doing it.

We are now between Steps 6-8 on a lot of things he promised and its only the 1st week.

I can see my point of view on this topic is not very popular here. Even to the point where LFRAgain engaged in insults to disagree. That said let me address those comments first. I am not a Trump supporter and I am not really that macho or some America rah rah and I am not very nationalistic (I have not lived in the U.S. for quite some time). I am not sure if I wear so called “big boy pants” either. I do not consider having an opinion disagreeing with others as being infantile. What I do believe in is that if a nation has laws they should be followed. For example, I am an American expat. I am still obligated to file and pay taxes. I do so. I would love not to do that so should I be able to just not pay taxes? I live in Japan. I did not come to Japan illegally. I followed proper procedures to enter the country and received a working Visa.

This topic relates to illegal immigration, not all immigration. LFRAgain stated that immigrants drive our economy. I agree with this statement. I think immigration should be carried out legally and the laws related to this should be enforced. Relative to legal immigration (and yes this is more of a micro than a macro view): I have businesses in Japan and the U.S. and have also run a business in another Asian country. I have employed foreigners in Japan and vice-versa in the United States. I am somewhat familiar with the process for employing legal immigrants in both countries. My observation is it was much easier to get the work visa for Japan than the U.S.

Relative to illegal immigration - If your opinion is that these laws should not exist (it would no longer be illegal). Generally, I do not agree with you.

My position is as follows (forgive me for its simplicity)

Pena Nieto should have at least sat at the table with President Trump and presented his counter proposal. He would have garnered more support in Congress if he did so (not all Republicans agree with Trump on this issue).

If the U.S. wishes to continue to have immigration laws, then they should be enforced and the personnel working to enforce these laws should be given the necessary tools to do their job. A majority of border patrol agents believe a wall (or partial wall) will make their job easier.

If the U.S. does not wish to have immigration laws or have a situation similar to the EU (the proverbial North American Union) this should be negotiated and established such that the free movement of people is bidirectional (or tri-directional – considering Canada).

LFRAgain. I do not see you as infantile for your difference in opinion, or even for your insults for that matter. I know that this is an emotional issue for some and I also understand that Trump has been divisive on this issue and his rash statements and the way he is going about this are making even those that supported him on this issue starting to question his methods.

Wishful thinking....

Many Trump voters are still celebrating and ignorant of what's happening. In time they'll find shopping for groceries is 20% more expensive and then the media will be flooded with calls to investigate Hillary for cheating, so as to lose the election to Trump. Don't laugh, these Trump voters are dumb & dumber. And oh, that car factory job has not materialized, blame Hillary for not driving an American-made car.

So we have a problem with illegal immigration, so we decide to build an inefficient and ineffectual wall, and then we decide to start a trade war with Mexico to pay for it, which is going to hurt everyone.

So what's the liberal answer, allow more to come in? Of course a wall will work, it's not 100% but if we have 1000 crossing a week and can minimize that to about 50 a week, that would be enough evidence that having a wall is more practical in slowing down the flow, increase the border patrol agents, triple hem, use the latest surveillance equipment and you make it extremely difficult for illegals to come into this country.

I think Pena Nieto was foolish to simply pull out of this meeting.

He has to be concerned about retribution from the drugs cartels as well. Taxing remittances from Mexican illegals directly might be more popular among the American public but it would probably be harder to get through Congress than money for a wall that has already been legislated.

Trump is doing the right thing with Mexico, that have taken advantage of us for way too long.

Are the maquiladoras all Mexican-owned, then?

Klaus, that is an insensitive comment for both Americans and illegal workers. Americans arent that lazy and illegals arent that stupid. Why do you demean people so? that is a tired old shibboleth that needs to be put to rest

The problem is that illegal workers create low wages. They artificially depress the labor market by creating an oversupply of labor. If they were gone, American citizens and legal residents could easily replace them. Of course, it would result in higher wages for those workers, but that is not a bad thing.

On another thread, I did the math as to what it would cost to replace illegal workers in the hospitality industry with legal workers at substantially higher wages. It worked out to approximately one dollar per meal. Hardly an onerous burden.

Sadly, the most vulnerable Americans are the ones who are most hurt by illegal immigration- high school graduates with no higher education, students, recent legal immigrants. The ones who benefit are the employers who get to exploit their vulnerability. That's not good for anyone.

I'm sure the 90% of his voters who regularly shop at Wallmart for their every day low prices will appreciate paying 20% more for their outsourced goods.

To build the great wall on the border, it seems that America becomes another old China finally.

I remember when the left was all for trade protection.

American labor unions should be all for this.

The left is for trade protection, but they're for smart use of taxes too. Infrastructure, education, health care, etc., not pointless projects that are pushed forward seemingly to save face. Almost everyone agrees that wall is pointless and doesn't actually address the real problems with immigration.

Illegal immigration is on the decline? Great! Let's get it down to as close to zero as is practical, and also work at deporting those in the country already. They add nothing to the country, are not needed, and are easily replacable.

If you want a quick lesson in hypocrisy, look up how Mexico deals with illegal immigration from Central America. Let's just say that they are not gentle and welcoming, and there are no advocacy groups in Mexico to help Guatemalans and Nicaraguans who want to live there.

millions of illegals in its country spooning off the government

how do they spoon off the goverment?, if they are illegal they cant recieve any benefits etc

http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/

So we have a problem with illegal immigration, so we decide to build an inefficient and ineffectual wall, and then we decide to start a trade war with Mexico to pay for it, which is going to hurt everyone.

Alrighty.

Sovereignty in modern times means some level of control as to who is entering the country.

Please. Save your nationalistic Team America™ pap for a crowd more easily duped. America suffers no loss of sovereignty with an influx of immigrants, legal or otherwise. Your vision of "sovereignty" is a noxious concoction of one part misinformed machisimo and five parts wetting-your-big-boy-pants-because-the-world-around-you-is-so-complicated fear.

FYI, illegal immigration has been on a steady decline in the US for well over a decade. Oh, snap! Didn't know that? Hmph... I'm not the least bit surprised.

Get educated. Learn a bit about how complex systems work and how distilling the immigration "issue" (coff! coff!) into something so trite and infantile as a "sovereignty" issue really makes very little sense against the backdrop of how much immigrants actually drive our economy.

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Agree with bass either the German or French name(Autriche).

In Vienna you can buy T-shirts with 'There are no kangaroos in Austria' printed on them. That's mostly for Americans, though.

That's not true, a lot of people get the two confused, including Japanese and its understandable. I prefer Österreich anyway, that way it clears up any confusion.

You make the same mistake as most Japanese I meet Austria = Australia. ;)

In Vienna you can buy T-shirts with 'There are no kangaroos in Austria' printed on them. That's mostly for Americans, though.

Way to make bad relationships with good next door ( Mexico ). He tears up the APP then send a Australian day Message, to the PM "Best of friends" Austria, Ya thanks Richard Cranium,

this is great news, I am so tired of the US being taken advantage of by other countries. No more welfare for foreign countries, time to think about Americans for a change

I think Pena Nieto was foolish to simply pull out of this meeting. Regardless of what people think of the wall, or the tariffs, the U.S. holds the stronger bargaining chip on this issue. It would have been better for Pena Nieto to sit down with Trump and start a discussion. As several people have mentioned Trump cannot do this unilaterally. Congress holds the purse strings. If Pena Nieto would meet with Trump it would show he is willing to negotiate (and would show this to those in Congress as well) and the impact on the peso would be less dramatic.

All negotiations start with one side putting something on the table. If Pena Nieto thinks this is unreasonable he should sit down and make his case.

Personally I think this is a very dramatic proposal by Trump and this (as he laid it out) will not come to fruition.

The government of Mexico has been complicit in getting people across the U.S. border illegally as it benefits Mexico (repatriated funds and jobs for part of their work force). This needs to be stopped. Trump is no angel and maybe not becoming of a U.S. President but the Mexican government are not exactly "innocents" on this issue.

The question is - Do Americans want a sovereign nation or not? It is that simple. Sovereignty in modern times means some level of control as to who is entering the country.

Trump wants to jack up prices on imports from China, Japan, Mexico,

Although the US can't do it while we are still in NAFTA unless Trump plans to unilaterally withdraw instead of renegotiate.

But but but Lizz, Trump said the costruction of his signature boondoggle wall to nowhere is going to kick off soon. What are these years you speak of?

Trump wants to jack up prices on imports from China, Japan, Mexico, wherever. (Canada next because he's jealous that Trudeau's more popular?)

Will the products Trump's companies have manufactured overseas be subject to higher tariffs?

Is he trying to start an inflationary cycle like the US saw during the Carter years?

Will Trump follow that time-honored Republican tradition and start another war to wag the dog when things go atrump?

Lizz: nope and that's because he must give enough time for companies to move back production to the US to not kill such businesses in the first place and jobs

Well we will see. These decisions are normally made a 2 or 3 years in advance and the logistics of the wall, especially with Congress involved, are probably going to take most of his term to work out. The small car market in the US by American producers is dead for sure since consumers aren't buying anyway and especially not at import imposed prices.

Farmboy.

Correct, and the tarrifs will be removed once the Wall is paid for in oh 30-40 yrs

BLUNDER The first meeting after taking power falls through with the US' southern neighbor. That's a pretty big diplomatic failure.

Lizz: nope and that's because he must give enough time for companies to move back production to the US to not kill such businesses in the first place and jobs. Only the remaining businesses (agricultural in the most part which cannot move) will be taxed.

Trump makes me smile more and more with each passing day!

Are people in the United States inherently superior to Mexicans or Canadians? Can someone explain it to me?

Has nothing to do with being superior, imagine if Japan would have millions of illegals in its country spooning off the government and these people were to get all kinds of entitlements at the expense of the Japanese tax payer, they wouldn't stand for it one bit and no country should, including the US. Have you seen the Mexican immigration policies??? Sometimes, I think they feel superior because they are so strict when it comes to illegals and immigration. So No, I have zero sympathy on law breakers and Trump is doing the right thing with Mexico, that have taken advantage of us for way too long.

Katsu78: such ideology can be found a bit further more right from the right.

I never understood why Mexico should pay for a wall constructed on United States property to ostensibly protect the United States. Should we pay Mexico or Canada if they decide to construct a border wall in their countries? Are people in the United States inherently superior to Mexicans or Canadians? Can someone explain it to me?

At the start when there is still goods flowing to the US it might work.

He is going to get way more than necessary for a wall before companies have a chance to move.

Don the Con doesn't have the power to just unilaterally impose a tariff, he needs Congress for that. And though the majority of Congress comes from his party, any government barrier to free trade is antithetical to their ideology. So this will be an interesting test for voters to observe-

Does Congress keep firm to what they believe is right and oppose the President?

Or do they sell out their principles for an enormously expensive boondoggle that won't even do what it's supposed to?

Their shot at reelection should hinge on this.

Stripping businesses from Mexico and add 20% on imports from Mexico. At the start when there is still goods flowing to the US it might work. Then the flow goes down because of such policies which means less money will be available. Same with remittance tax as illegals get deported. Use tax money first then don't get it back.

How about using prisoners as forced laborers? He is going to have to cut corners.

Anyway, this is the new white elephant.