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Trump shrugs off fuss over Taiwan president's call

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By GILLIAN WONG and JOHNSON LAI

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Well what did we expect. The man is an infant in international politics and this is only the beginning. It's like we are living in one long SNL spoof.

6 ( +16 / -10 )

All the chickenhawks cheering for Trump because they think he's going to upset the status quo should read this closely, particularly:

After the phone conversation Friday, Trump tweeted that Tsai “CALLED ME.” He also groused about the reaction to the call: “Interesting how the U.S. sells Taiwan billions of dollars of military equipment but I should not accept a congratulatory call.”

The man just broke major diplomatic protocol, and his chief concern is not the lives of everyone who could be affected if this turns sour. His chief concern is how he looks on Twitter.

That's not just incompetent narcissism, that's the kind of incompetent narcissism that can be easily manipulated.

1 ( +12 / -11 )

In related news, Trump displayed his knowledge of Asian society by condoling the passage of General Tso.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

trump is clearly a chump, but I have to admit I am a bit sick of how the west has been kissing China's behind for decades & the results to me DONT seem to have been worth it, and look at how the monster China has grown!

But here is a hint at why all this schmoozing has gone on:

In Beijing, a U.S. business group urged the new U.S. administration to respect the status quo.

Its all about the $$$, BUT its going to cost the world a whole lot more when China lashes out at the world & Asia will be taking the brunt of it.

All for $$ & during that time we have watched western societies middle classes take the economic hit now for 3decades & counting, not likely going to end well, HECK that's a BIG reason we have trump now!!!

3 ( +9 / -6 )

It's just scary. The call in itself is not a huge deal. But it confirms the Donald was not even aware there existed a tensed diplomatic situation and nobody in his team takes the care of briefing him.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

This is the problem with becoming an ideologue and demonising your political opponents personally rather than focusing on each individual policy. The 'never-Trump' people have backed themselves into a corner and no matter what Trump does now, it must be inherently bad in order to justify their previous criticism. It's going to be a long 4 years. I suspect at this point, Trump could help a family of ducks safely cross the road and people would accuse him of irresponsibly interfering with nature.

I'm not a fan of Trump personally...at all, but it's an objectively positive move on the part of the US to stand on the side of freedom, democracy, free markets and human rights when it comes to confronting China. This is long overdue. If Obama had taken this call, people would probably be praising him for living up to his legacy as a Nobel Peace Prize laureate, because as we all now, the Chinese communist party is the state embodiment of the racist, xenophobic, anti-internationalist, and fascist policies that many people find so abhorrent in Trump. Yet, the 'never-Trumpers' are now saying that China deserves more diplomatic courtesy? Come on, just look at yourselves in the mirror. What do you actually stand for?

It's better to reset the relationship with China now while the US can still easily wipe the floor with them militarily, rather than putting off this inevitable drawing of the line in the sand over Taiwan for another decade. China is the biggest economic and security threat we face in the west. Allowing them into the WTO was a huge mistake. Even those who supported it at the time now admit this. Unfortunately there is no provision in the WTO for ejecting a member once they have joined so China could drop a nuke on Taiwan and America wouldn't be allowed to block Chinese goods from entering the US. I suspect this is why Trump wants to withdraw from the WTO. Provided a replacement organization is set up which is fit for purpose, it would be a smart move for all western free market democracies to do the same.

12 ( +16 / -4 )

The sky is falling!!! Not quite.

China knows it has to suck this one up, and that's why it issued the token statement. They know they're not dealing with a normal president. He's kind of like Duterte in that respect.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Hmm double standards much? It's ok for our politicians, left/right, west/east, to talk and do biz with Saudis, Israel, Qatar and yes, China (and other 'dubious' regimes) yet when DT takes a phone call from Taiwan it becomes a political faux-pas? Right

I wish the left/centre politicians I voted for all my life were more concerned about what's ethically/morally right or wrong and less about some ultra PC pseudo protocol dictating what one should do or not do. Thats because of these ppl that a bloke like DT got elected in the first place. No need for faux outrage over a phone call guys, keep the ammo for 'proper' faux pas.

13 ( +13 / -0 )

It's just scary. The call in itself is not a huge deal. But it confirms the Donald was not even aware there existed a tensed diplomatic situation and nobody in his team takes the care of briefing him.

I think he knows exactly what he is doing. He is playing with fire and China is at risk of being burned. Go Trump!

3 ( +6 / -3 )

The man can talk to whoever he wants. Why is this news?

11 ( +13 / -2 )

As much as I think Trump is not qualified for the job and see many of his short comings what is the problem with this?!

She called him. Glad he took the call. About time someone in our government has the balls to not worry about hurting the feelings of China.

Taiwan is operating as a sovereign nation and should be treated as such. They are among leaders in electronics and semiconductor production (think Taiwan Semiconductor).

It is not "scary"....tense diplomatic situation or not the U.S. leader has a right to speak to the leader of another sovereign nation. China being upset because he spoke to her is beyond ridiculous. Nice to see the U.S. have a bit of a backbone again.

11 ( +14 / -3 )

Oh the slave masters must be fuming. How dare Trump upset the balance of the globalists and their evil ways.

8 ( +12 / -4 )

M3M3M3DEC. 04, 2016 - 09:15AM JST This is the problem with becoming an ideologue and demonising your political opponents personally rather than focusing on each individual policy. The 'never-Trump' people have backed themselves into a corner and no matter what Trump does now, it must be inherently bad in order to justify their previous criticism. It's going to be a long 4 years. I suspect at this point, Trump could help a family of ducks safely cross the road and people would accuse him of irresponsibly interfering with nature.

goldorakDEC. 04, 2016 - 09:20AM JST Hmm double standards much? It's ok for our politicians, left/right, west/east, to talk and do biz with Saudis, Israel, Qatar and yes, China (and other 'dubious' regimes) yet when DT takes a phone call from Taiwan it becomes a political faux-pas? Right

You guys might try reading the comments actually written rather than just making up straw men you'd rather be disagreeing with.

I don't have a problem with taking a stronger position in support of Taiwan. I have a problem with taking political action that could potentially lead the two most powerful nations on the planet into conflict and having absolutely no strategy whatsoever for managing it. The world is complicated. As much as people in the peanut gallery like to imagine powerful men can navigate it through the power of their audacious balls, in the real world it takes research and planning to up-end major systems without causing death and destruction to millions who don't deserve it.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

As much as people in the peanut gallery like to imagine powerful men can navigate it through the power of their audacious balls, in the real world it takes research and planning to up-end major systems without causing death and destruction to millions who don't deserve it.

Yeah, and calling people "chickenhawks" is so intellectual. Maybe it would be good idea to reread a page from your own book. China has some great people, but their government not so much. Why not force them into the 21st century? It will take baby steps and recognizing Taiwan is the first step.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

When the USA voters voted, they voted for change. Holding the tea cup with the finger in the correct position is not what they expect of Mr. Trump. If world leaders think he is going to behave like all previous presidents, they need to think again. Right or wrong, that is what they voted for.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Polycom diplomacy beats gunboat diplomacy.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

If world leaders think he is going to behave like all previous presidents, they need to think again. Right or wrong, that is what they voted for.

Zeus help us all!!

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Oh the slave masters must be fuming. How dare Trump upset the balance of the globalists and their evil ways.

Translation: he's doing something right.

The people that the most problem with it are the typical Globalists and Washington elites that have been doing things in a traditional order for years and years and now as an outsider, Trump is unpredictable and thinks about putting the US first and none of these big wigs like it. What's next on Trump's shaking up of the social norm?

China has some great people, but their government not so much. Why not force them into the 21st century? It will take baby steps and recognizing Taiwan is the first step.

BINGO!

1 ( +8 / -7 )

I have always been amazed at how the West has been cowed into diplomatically shunning Taiwan. Taiwan is a separate country. Nixon was an idiot for starting this whole charade in the first place. I hope that Trump changes this ridiculous policy. China needs to grow up and accept the fact that the Taiwanese people don't want to live under single party rule.

12 ( +14 / -2 )

The media are treating this like the start of WW3. Not a big fan of Trump, but one thing I did enjoy about his win was the way it displayed the utter, utter failure of the media. I am super sick and tired of the media. They lie outright on a daily basis, no better than Trump. They manufacture headlines which often bear little if any relation to the gravity of the story they have written about to dramaticise every minor news detail, all in the hopes of selling more advertising and/or newspapers. For the good of informative democracy, the media in the west needs some massive, massive reforms. If I was king for a day, they would feel the hammer big time. One thing the President should do is make it far easier for everyday citizens to initiate legal action against the lying media and defamation cases. They need to start bleeding money like its going out of fashion to make sure they really wake up. In a democracy it is vital they inform without bias or favour. Stick to the facts, not hyperbole, not opinion pieces passing off as fact. Journalism needs to become a profession that is respected again.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

@Katsu78

I don't have a problem with taking a stronger position in support of Taiwan. I have a problem with taking political action that could potentially lead the two most powerful nations on the planet into conflict and having absolutely no strategy whatsoever for managing it.

So in a nutshell, what is your strategy for taking a stronger position in support of Taiwan and dealing with China?

I think the idea that we can develop some grand plan for managing China is itself a dangerous conceit. China is inherently unpredictable. Their only core value is self preservation.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

China is inherently unpredictable. Their only core value is self preservation

As opposed to the US? Moshi moshi?

0 ( +5 / -5 )

“The government of the People’s Republic of China is the sole legitimate government representing China.”

An unelected dictatorship is not a legitimate government in my eyes. I'd like to see trade with China restricted until their government decides to behave in a civilised manner. It sickens me to see Japanese and US companies pandering to the Chinese dictators, putting profits before principles.

I don't expect much from Trump on that score: he is all about doing deals and making money.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

The U.S. rapproachment with the PRC was an attempt to use an otherwise backwater nuclear power to contain the Soviet threat. But the Soviet Union no longer exists and the PRC is now the threat that needs to be contained. Even Obama saw that, but his Asian Pivot was all paper and no tiger.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Trump was absolutely correct to take this call from the president of Taiwan.

Here is some excellent commentary:

Trump Is Right to Re-affirm Our Commitment to Taiwan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eSFAcSH8rs&t=11s

3 ( +7 / -4 )

A calculated and strong move in shifting the US-Chicom relationship.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

"China has some great people, but their government not so much. Why not force them into the 21st century?"

A Republican dragging the world into the 21st century? Hahaha.

Didn't Trump call global warming a lie concocted by the Chinese?

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Sorry Trump-haters, but Trump did the right thing. And...

Let's call a spade a spade. Taiwan is independent. If China does anything to threaten that, the U.S. will step in. No point in hiding all of this.

China can howl all it wants, but it can't do anything or risk plunging their country into a conflict with their biggest trading partner, which would send their economy and society reeling.

9 ( +12 / -3 )

If it upsets the Chinese and the Democrats, it MUST be good for America.

2 ( +9 / -7 )

"If it upsets the Chinese and the Democrats, it MUST be good for America."

I'd say whoop-inducing comments like global warming is a lie created by the Chinese upset the Chinese and the Democrats.

Is that boneheaded statement good for America? Hang on, hasn't he already backtracked on that particular instance of utter idiocy? I can't keep up.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

FizzBitDEC. 04, 2016 - 10:13AM JST Yeah, and calling people "chickenhawks" is so intellectual.

I didn't call for anyone to be intellectual, I called for the bare minimum of leadership and planning before taking a disruptive action. If "think before you act" is the threshold you set for being an intellectual, you've set it far too low.

Why not force them into the 21st century?

First, because they're a sovereign nation and if we want nations to recognize our sovereignty we must recognize others' sovereignty. Second and more importantly, because we don't have the power to force the issue. Like I just said, the number 1 and number 2 powers in the world going head-to-head requires planning and preparation, the kind of preparation that takes months if not years. It's not something a President does because they stuck their hand down their pants one day and freaked out about whether or not what they found was big enough.

M3M3M3DEC. 04, 2016 - 11:03AM JST So in a nutshell, what is your strategy for taking a stronger position in support of Taiwan and dealing with China?>

I live and work in Japan. I am not an expert on the complex geopolitical relationship between China and the US. Neither are you. Neither is Trump. There are however people who spend their lives studying that exact relationship. If we want to make smart decisions, we need to consult them. Random speculation from random folks in the Internet peanut gallery is not how people with leadership skill make major policy decisions.

China is inherently unpredictable.

Perhaps you might study them sometime instead of just following Internet propaganda. The PRC has followed a fairly consistent geopolitical strategy for decades - avoid confinement by the US and its allies. Just because you don't understand the pattern doesn't mean a pattern doesn't exist. Again, people actually do study this stuff. Maybe our President-elect should talk to them before creating needless chaos.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

The question is can the US afford to stick the finger to China? China holds a huge among of US dept. And any small amount of conflict could have a big impact on the US economy and in turn the world.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

Great to see the independent nation that is Taiwan recognised in this way. Taiwan has its own military, currency, parliament, border controls, passports. Looks independent to me and should be treated as such, regardless of what Beijing thinks.

Great place to visit too. Chinese culture and cuisine but without any of the hassle that comes with visiting Mainland China.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

If China does anything to threaten that, the U.S. will step in. No point in hiding all of this.

There is, actually, a point in hiding all of this - a point that presidents since Nixon have recognized. It's called "strategic ambiguity." Cross-strait relationships are for the two entities to determine, and while US influence may be important, in the end, if China decides to take Taiwan by force, there is no way that the US can stop them.

Perhaps taking the call was a good thing - it certainly caught Bejing's attention. I just hope that Trump knows what he's doing (hard to say with this twitter-mad blabbermouth); a cross-strait war would be catastrophic for the world.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Trump got played by Taiwan and now they're trying to pass off bumbling incompetence as brilliance, priceless! Amateur hour isn't even waiting til day 1.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Since when China give orders about who can or can't talk with whoever they want?

5 ( +6 / -1 )

No...Trump did not get "played" by Taiwan. He took a call from the leader of a sovereign state.

China has been trying to give orders as to who people can and cannot talk to for decades. A huge example is how the piss and moan when the Dalai Lama is accepted by foreign leaders.

Again in spite of me feelings against Trump - kudos to him for taking the call...and if China bitches calmly ask them to stay out of the U.S. affairs and dealings with other sovereign nations.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

He took a call from the leader of a sovereign state.

This is what I'm trying to say, Tokyo - and I cannot emphasize this enough: Taiwan is de facto sovereign; you and I can go ahead and call it sovereign because our words don't matter; but the president-elect treating Taiwan as sovereign will bring on a world of pain.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

the president-elect treating Taiwan as sovereign will bring on a world of pain.

If the PRC wants to trigger an offensive war over Taiwan, let them. The U.S. is more than ready to defend Taiwan. It would be a curbstomp by the U.S.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

I am not an expert on the complex geopolitical relationship between China and the US. Neither are you. Neither is Trump. There are however people who spend their lives studying that exact relationship. If we want to make smart decisions, we need to consult them.

Katsu78, help me with the logic here. If you don't know enough about complex China-US relations to tell us what might have been a better course of action, how can you possibly infer that Trump hasn't consulted with these China experts you speak of? Perhaps he has and they told him to pick up the phone. How would you know?

Clearly, your assertion that Trump hasn't consulted experts can only be based on your speculation that no expert would have advised Trump to do what he did...because you think it is objectively ill-advised. So, tell us what you think you think the objectively good advice would have been. In other words, what would Trump have to do for you to say, 'hmm.. it looks like Trump has been talking to the experts'.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

The Chinese government is all hat and no cattle. Their only experience in fighting is massacring unarmed students in Tiananmen Square...

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Trump does not care and why should he care one good thing he has done is showing China he won't stand for their bullying Commi ways.Even though I don't like Trump personally but its about time someone told China where to go..

3 ( +3 / -0 )

The man is an infant in international politics

Which made me think of the boy in the Hans Andersen tale, The Emperor's New Clothes.

It must be pointed out that there is only one China in the world and Taiwan is an inseparable part of Chinese territory

Right. Anyone who sees something other than one China is stupid or incompetent.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Right-wingers often screamed loud and hard that Obama was going to take away all their guns; and that never happened.

However, they are alright about Trump taking away the 1st Amendment as he has repeatedly said that he'll lock all people up who protest against him, burn flags, print anything negative in the press against him, etc.

I'm am officially confused. Why do conservatives continue to think that guns are better than free speech?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@Laguna

First I fully agree that you and I saying things about Taiwan and sovereignty are completely different than when said by a President elect.

On the other hand....again...he took a call from their leader...and they are a sovereign state. He did nothing else. In my opinion the President (or President elect) should have a right to TALK to whoever he wants to. China dictating who he speaks ti is outrageous.

Furthermore the U.S. has been selling arms to Taiwan for decades...over 200 million dollars worth I believe. I would think that would have come up prior to Mr. Trump merely receiving a phone call.

I speak not as a supporter of Trump (as I am not) but as an American citizen.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Communist Chinese Government must get real and accept the truth about Taiwan. There's no way Taiwan will become part of China. Chinese Government must accept the truth.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

Their only experience in fighting is massacring unarmed students in Tiananmen Square.

Right. Tell that to Douglas MacArthur.

Tokyo, as I mentioned above, I'm not saying he was wrong to take the call, and it might even turn out for the better (ironically, in a "Nixon goes to China way) - but the dangers are great poking this dragon. I just hope he knows what he's doing and is not simply acting impetuously. What is your level of confidence in this regard?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Trump is very good in noisy and insulting campaign and flip flopping. Reality is Taiwan has been independent since 1949 except in official name. However all US presidents have to maintain the diplomatic protocol for preserving peace and stability. During his campaign, he said China has been raping US economy. It was acceptable as candidate speech. Now he is the elected POTUS. If he will say like that again, he is the embarrassment for the whole nation.

In fact Ronanld Regan prefer to deal with Taiwanese government rather than CCP. As a private citizen he was anti communist China. When he becomes commander in chief, he needed to change his private opinion for national and Geo political interest. JFK said Do not expect what country can do for you! You have to do what is good for country.

All successive presidents well behaved and spoke diplomatically. If Trump can not follow the rules and protocols as civilized head of states, he is unfit for the job and should be impeached sooner than later.

POTUS is not emperor Gengis Khan who was outspoken, undiplomatic and wild.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

M3M3M3DEC. 04, 2016 - 05:31PM JST Katsu78, help me with the logic here. If you don't know enough about complex China-US relations to tell us what might have been a better course of action, how can you possibly infer that Trump hasn't consulted with these China experts you speak of?

One, Trump hasn't appointed a Secretary of State, which means there is presently no one in his cabinet coordinating the whole of US diplomatic policy. Trump is a 70 year old man who has never worked a day in politics in his life and is in the middle of transitioning into the most powerful political post on the planet. He has to learn how the Presidency works (because he himself admitted he didn't know how much it entailed before he won the election), everything there is to know about American domestic policy and everything there is to know about every American diplomatic issue in the world. There is quite simply no way he can do all of that and learn about the details of America's deeply complicated relationship to China in a few days.

Two, Trump isn't even using existing State Department resources with regards to diplomatic talks with other heads of state, to the degree that the White House has had to gently remind him that those resources, erm, exist. (source:http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/01/us/politics/trumps-off-the-cuff-remarks-to-world-leaders-leave-diplomats-aghast.html)

Three, Trump knowing nothing about China is utterly consistent with everything he showed us in his behavior up to this point, with his nonsensical rhetoric about China inventing anthropological global climate change or his delusions that Japan is somehow "beating" the US in an economic sense.

Four, Trump is already playing deceptive games regarding this call, with his tweeting that Taiwan called him despite the fact that without question this call would have to have been coordinated and approved by both sides before hand. Unless you want to believe that the President-elect of the United States just sits around by his phone waiting for other heads of state to randomly call him and have a chat.

Your support for Trump may not be for objectively verifiable reasons, but don't make the mistake of assuming everyone's opposition to Trump's demonstrated incompetence is equally subjective and emotional.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

nathaw:

Reality is Taiwan has been independent since 1949 except in official name.

True. And it's the Taiwanese people who suffer from being an outcast in this world. Its democratic system is not perfect, but Taiwan is a democracy and one of the most progressive in all of Asia,although it does a small, but vocal Christian 'family values' community.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

One, Trump hasn't appointed a Secretary of State, which means there is presently no one in his cabinet coordinating the whole of US diplomatic policy.

He isn't the President yet so I don't see this as a problem. This is what was so significant about this particular call at this particular time. It allowed a private citizen to send a strong message about future US policy without the serious consequences that would follow if he were actually President.

Two, Trump isn't even using existing State Department resources

Again, he isn't the president yet. But this seems entirely like a process argument and says nothing about the substance of whether the call was an objectively positive move. What if he had used the resources of the State Department and they had concluded that the call was the right choice based on the new direction of US policy towards China? What would your argument be then?

Three, Trump knowing nothing about China is utterly consistent with everything he showed us in his behavior up to this point, with his nonsensical rhetoric about China inventing anthropological global climate change

It's hard to argue with this.

Four, Trump is already playing deceptive games regarding this call, with his tweeting that Taiwan called him despite the fact that without question this call would have to have been coordinated and approved by both sides

It gives him plausible deniability. China is the master of plausible deniability. The irony is wonderful.

Your support for Trump may not be for objectively verifiable reasons, but don't make the mistake of assuming everyone's opposition to Trump's demonstrated incompetence is equally subjective and emotional.

I think this statement really shows you to be a bit of a partisan ideologue. You don't seem to understand that Trump does not enjoy my general support. Quite the opposite in fact. I don't support any politician. I support specific issues which matter to me. If a politician decides to advocate a policy that makes sense and advances the issues I care about, they will enjoy my conditional support on an issue by issue basis. The moment they stop advancing my issues is the moment I stop supporting them. It's really quite liberating and how politics was intended to work, everyone should try it.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Tokyo-Engr: As much as I think Trump is not qualified for the job and see many of his short comings

And

I speak not as a supporter of Trump (as I am not) but

And

Again in spite of me feelings against Trump -

And

I am not a supporter of Trump but

And

Again, I see Trump as unfit for office but

And

I do not think Trump will be a good President and I still am of the belief he is not fit for duty, however

And

As much as I believe Trump is unqualified for office I am not sure how you can

And

I do not think Trump is fit for office however

And

There are plenty of issues with Trump and (in my opinion) his lack of suitability to be the Commander in Chief, but

That's just in the last 3 days. You sure do spend a lot of time supporting a guy you really want to say you don't support....but...

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Can't believe I am writing this but I am with Trump on this one.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Can't believe I am writing this but I am with Trump on this one

Welcome to the dark side.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

A Republican dragging the world into the 21st century? Hahaha.

But a hippy Democrat taking us to the swingin' 60's is better? Zoinks!

Didn't Trump call global warming a lie concocted by the Chinese?

What about Al Gore and his invention of the internet?

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

The man just broke major diplomatic protocol, and his chief concern is not the lives of everyone who could be affected if this turns sour. His chief concern is how he looks on Twitter.

F this facade/charade that this diplomatic protocol is.

This is much ado about nothing.

The USA invites the Dalai Lama to the white house nearly every presidency, lets keep in mind this is a man that the Chinese consider a terrorist and we are inviting him to the white house!

We have openly sold billions of dollars of weapons to Taiwan. We have a defense agreement with Taiwan that says if China attacks them we will defend them. Isn't that basically a declaration of war against China?

Not to mention we have extensive trade agreements with Taiwan.

The USA now does regular freedom of navigation operations in the South China Sea on islands China considers to be its territory. Not to mention the US air-force that does spying operations in international air space on China.

You have the Chinese regularly harassing/attacking Philippines and Vietnamese and other nations fishing vessels in the South China Sea.

But oh no! Out of all that it will be this phone call or any other phone call that the president does with the president of Taiwan that will start the war...

Give me a break katsu78

However all US presidents have to maintain the diplomatic protocol for preserving peace and stability.

This is nothing more than a argumentum ad consequentiam fallacy argument.

Eventually you have to stand up to threats. You could use the same argument when it comes to islamic terrorists, either do as they say or they will attack you.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

It's adorable how Trump supporters are making like Trump knew what he was doing. He just bumbled into this.

One can argue whether the new administration should or not change tack with regard to relations with Beijing and Taipei but just falling into it is the mark of someone totally out of their depth.

Fortunately Trump didn't really do any damage yet as Beijing's not likely going to take this as a departure from long held policy but rather going to chalk it up to ignorance..

The guy so got played. Sad.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

This is the time to actually start recognizing Taiwan's government as a legitimate Chinese government more and more. The CCP has been getting on everyone's nerves, but corporate fools keep feeding the CCP controlled mainland their money, and entwining like snakes in an economic bed.

Hong Kong's democratic government is being destroyed by the CCP. And it's better to keep the one China idea going, Just not under the CCP.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Laguna: SuperLib: <3

They're just so horribly repetitive, aren't they? Each has their own schtick and they run it into the ground. So simplistic.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Eventually you have to stand up to threats.

Just don't forget that that statement can easily be used on either side.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Just don't forget that that statement can easily be used on either side.

So what?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Theres nothing wrong with trying something new. Unless you're kind of stupid and you do something stupid because of it then tack on a "I was just trying something new" after you've been exposed as stupid. Trump is more the latter.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Eight years of limp-waisted dithering masquerading as "class" is coming to an end.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Theres nothing wrong with trying something new. Unless you're kind of stupid and you do something stupid because of it then tack on a "I was just trying something new" after you've been exposed as stupid. Trump is more the latter.

He still has a very, very long way to go before he can do something as stupid, even remotely close to what Obama has done.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Ok, bass. You got me. Left myself wide open for that.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

M3M3M3DEC. 04, 2016 - 09:14PM JST He isn't the President yet so I don't see this as a problem

Again, he isn't the president yet.

The Presidency is a wee bit more complicated than being a burger-flipper at your local McD's. Sure, he isn't officially President until January 20th, but obviously there's tons of work that needs to be done before that point to get ready and his involvement in issues is going to be seen as "presidential" before he's officially sworn in. Note that he did a victory tour to celebrate his Carrier scam that bribed a private company to keep a token few jobs in the US with taxpayer money - if nothing he does matters until January 20th, then he shouldn't be claiming that "success", but that hasn't stopped him. Nor should he be accepting phone calls from heads of state, but that hasn't stopped Trump either. The fact is, Trump is acting as though he is partly President already, so he needs to go through those decisions when they affect the American people with the proper degree of deliberation and common sense. Breaking diplomatic protocol without his own State Department team in place and without using existing State Department apparati (which the White House has made freely available to him) is irrational and irresponsible.

I think this statement really shows you to be a bit of a partisan ideologue

You've cheerleaded for Trump in just about every post mentioning him in the past year. You came into this thread accusing everyone who opposes Trump of being ideologues. I gave you 4 entirely rational arguments why this specific choice by Trump was an idiotic move, and now you're fishing for arguments to claim I'm an ideologue even if you haven't got the evidence. The word for that is "projection".

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You've cheerleaded for Trump in just about every post mentioning him in the past year.

Katsu, I think you have me confused with someone else entirely. I've only ever commented on two or three Trump articles in my life, four tops.

As far as your other points, I simply disagree. The president is the president. He sets the policy. No matter how much the expert officials at the state department advise him against this, they don't control the president (or president-elect). Taking a harder line with China is clearly part of Trump's agenda, it's something he seems to have strong feelings about, and he has a political mandate to do it.

Katsu, do you agree that state capitalism in China is a threat to western business and living standards because it makes it almost impossible to take action against Chinese abuses under WTO rules? Do you think the west should take military action to protect Taiwan in the event of Chinese hostilities? Do you think the west should priorities democracy and human rights in it's dealings with China? If you agree with this, what is the proper and diplomatic way to announce to the world that this is now US policy? Hold a press conference in the rose garden?

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M3M3M3DEC. 05, 2016 - 06:08PM JST As far as your other points, I simply disagree. The president is the president. He sets the policy. No matter how much the expert officials at the state department advise him against this, they don't control the president (or president-elect). T

Please read my posts again. I never said the state department should control the President, I want the President making informed decisions and I want the President planning follow-through for his policies. That's what we're not getting now, and that's what in every response you've made in this thread you've tried to distract from in order to paint my opposition to Trump's behavior as less than rational. You need to stop, you need to read what's written, and you need to argue what's actually been said, not make up strawman arguments that make you feel good.

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@katsu78

Katsu, I have been reading your posts carefully and I understand what you are saying. I'm not putting up strawmen. I think you're a smart person but I just think your entire premise is a bit of a mute point.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but your main desire is to see Trump consult with experts and the State Department before he does something else you feel is incredibly dangerous and stupid, right? This sounds reasonable enough, but the problem is that there is no polite or diplomatic way of telling an entire nation that they have been leaching off the international system for decades and they are now in for a rude awakening come January. From a strategic point of view, it is better to be as blunt as possible so that your allies know what is coming and they can get on board.

Let's just imagine that Trump does consult with experts and the State Department and he tells them that his policy objective is to undermine China and make absolutely clear that the US-China relationship will now radically change. Do you really think it's beyond the realm of possibility that experts would advise him to place calls to China's strategic foe Taiwan? It's not unreasonable advice considering the objective, and Trump sets the objectives as President. This is why I think this talk of experts is a mute point.

I think this is where our disagreement lies Katsu: You can't accept that what Trump has done has any strategic value, so you are convinced that no expert could possibly advise this course of action. I think this is just incorrect. I think Trump's actions have been extremely effective in terms of the clarity and forcefulness of the message and the fact that China is limited in its ability to respond because Trump is still a private citizen. This has clearly rattled China and I'm sure that was precisely the point. It might have been so effective that future experts and advisors will recommend doing the same to any incoming president.

I feel like I have to make this clear; I think Trump is a repulsive man, but even a complete moron can be right once in a while. (Also, how about we stop talking so much about Trump and focus on the underlying issue, which is what the world should do about China?)

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The LIBERAL MEDIA has nothing better to do than to attempt to stir up discord. They are also the main reason why there is so much racial tension in the U.S.

Why should President elect Donald John Trump not accept a phone call from the leader of Taiwan??!!!

Thank Goodness he does not let China dictate our nation.

President elect Donald Trump will do what is best for our country.

P.S. He also isn't taking flak from the Liberal media.

I wonder if he can legally keep liberal media such as CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS, the Wall St. Journal, Washington Post, NY Times, etc. from being part of the White House news core? That would be something!!!

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worldfriendship, right on!

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This sounds reasonable enough, but the problem is that there is no polite or diplomatic way of telling an entire nation …

You've clearly not been reading my posts if you think I'm concerned about whether or not Trump is being "polite" to China.

You can't accept that what Trump has done has any strategic value, so you are convinced that no expert could possibly advise this course of action.

You're clearly not listening. I said very clearly I have no problem with taking a stronger line toward China, but it must be done in a properly planned and organized way, which everything we've seen so far is evidence that Trump is not doing.

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I wonder if he can legally keep liberal media such as CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS, the Wall St. Journal, Washington Post, NY Times, etc. from being part of the White House news core?

You mean press corps? What a delightfully authoritarian idea. Thouroughly, un-American.

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@Katsu

Not to go around in circles but please give me a concrete example of what taking a stronger line on China would look like in a properly planned and organized way. (A press conference? A news release? A UN general assembly speech? Some stern words behind the scenes?) Making a private call to Taiwan seems like an objectively good first step to announce a change of tone and one that even experts might advise. Can you admit this call was a decent idea, but perhaps you are just worried about what Trump might do or say next? If so, we are completely in the same boat.

I hope you can appreciate why I'm a bit skeptical of your qualified stance on China. Generally, saying you are for something but only if it is done in a properly planned and organized way is usually just a weasely way of actually being against it. Phillip Morris supports the eventual banning of cigarettes on health grounds, provided it's done in a properly planned and organized way. Xenophobes are never against immigration, as long as it's done in a properly planned and organized way. You get the idea. I get the feeling like you might be in favour of a stronger line towards China, provided Trump gets none of the credit for what Obama failed to do in 8 years (unfortunately).

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M3M3M3DEC. 06, 2016 - 07:55PM JST Not to go around in circles but please give me a concrete example of what taking a stronger line on China would look like in a properly planned and organized way. (A press conference? A news release? A UN general assembly speech? Some stern words behind the scenes?)

Erm, no... a properly organized way would be fully analyzing all US intelligence resources on China including the Chinese leadership and the state of American trade with China, fully implementing Obama's pivot to Asia which got interrupted by Japanese debate over base relocation, fully preparing plans and contingency plans for how we will deal with whatever response China makes and then taking the call. You're overly obsessing on diplomatic set-dressing while ignoring the real decision-making that leaders should be doing.

Can you admit this call was a decent idea...I get the feeling like you might be in favour of a stronger line towards China, provided Trump gets none of the credit for what Obama failed to do in 8 years (unfortunately).

Don't ask me to admit anything which is an attribution of your own invention. I'm speaking in the real world. Please respond to the real world posts I've written, not the version of me in your head that you'd rather be arguing with.

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Taiwan #1

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Katsu, fair enough. I do see your points but I don't think we are going to convince eachother. I can only take you at your word and assume that you would also be criticizing Hillary Clinton if she had made the exact same call at this time.

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