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Turkey says Russian jet violated its airspace, ignored repeated warnings

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By JIM HEINTZ and SUZAN FRASER

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Turkey is a covert supporter of ISIS. First move: kick them out of NATO.

17 ( +23 / -6 )

The pilots of the downed Su-24 ejected, but one was killed by Syrian rebel fire from the ground as he parachuted to Earth

At least we know the breed and character of these so-called "moderate" rebels.

They kill the pilot in cold blood and cheer Allah Akbar joyfully.

Moderates or Terrorists... You decide.

14 ( +20 / -6 )

Moderates or Terrorists... You decide.

Imported Uighur and Uzbek Islamist extremists--I'll go with the latter. Russia is going to pound these "Turkmen" positions hard.

6 ( +10 / -4 )

US - Russia proxy war begins.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

In 2012, when Syria shot down a Turkish F-4 Phantom, an outraged Erdogan said that: "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack."

And I wonder if Turkey can provide any proof that the Russian jet violated their airspace.

2 ( +12 / -10 )

I agree - Turkey should be kicked out of NATO. It's a disgusting way to behave towards an ally in wartime. If we think back to a few months ago Turkey was demanding all kinds of "conditions" on its participation in any activity against ISIS. Putin is right, Turkey is an accomplice to terrorists.

14 ( +17 / -3 )

And I wonder if Turkey can provide any proof that the Russian jet violated their airspace.

Looks like The Russian fighters were in Turkish airspace for all of 5 seconds:

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2015/11/radar%20path%20russian%20jet.jpg

Hardly a violation worthy of a shoot-down. The Turks had this planned out in advance. And I can guarantee you now that the Russians are just waiting for a Turk plane to venture a centimeter over the Syrian border. There will be payback.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

waiting for a Turk plane to venture a centimeter over the Syrian border.

What are you talking about? This happens all the time.

You as per NATO's blatantly hypocritical stance, Turkish airspace is sovereign but Syrian airspace isn't.

You're right though, next time a NATO plane ventures into Syria the Russians should issue a few token warnings and then shoot it down with their S400. They would be well within International rules if they did so because Russia is operating legally in Syria, other countries like Turkey aren't.

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

I'm sure all the involved parties are taking your opinions into due consideration.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

turkey became very interesting several years back when the religious party won the elections: now turkey is a Muslim state and is doing all it can to erase the secular past - all the way back to the first world war.

the US supports them in nato because of the bases, but in reality- no - you cannot rely on turkey nor really trust them.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

There is no evidence that Russia has destroyed any IS targets. Russia has only tried to support Assad by bombing his enemy. What is the positive outcome of the loss of the Russian fighter? It proves that either Russia is sending inexperienced pilots on missions that it expected no challenge to occur and/or (more likely or) the Russian built fighter is inferior to the USA built F-16 fighter even if it piloted by a NATO pilot. Surprise, Russian built planes always have been inferior since day one. Russia has always used the "Big Bluff" to meet it objectives.

-7 ( +6 / -13 )

Russian built fighter is inferior to the USA built F-16 fighter even if it piloted by a NATO pilot. Surprise, Russian built planes always have been inferior since day one. Russia has always used the "Big Bluff" to meet it objectives.

The downed Su-24 is not even a fighter jet, it's a bomber. It can hardly defend itself from a multi-role F-16.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

There is no evidence that Russia has destroyed any IS targets.

And are there unicorns in this alternate reality of yours?

1 ( +8 / -7 )

This isn't the first time Russia allegedly violated Turkey airspace - recall a few weeks ago, when a Russian drone was shot down for the same reason. This time, it's not over an area where ISIS is known to be but where ethnic Turkmen reside.

Russia and Turkey are diametrically opposite in their support for Assad, but are large economic partners. If the gas pipelines wouldn't have gone thru Ukraine, it would've gone thru Turkey to Europe.

Like a decade ago when the burden of proof was on China when it damaged an US recon plane that it said violated its airspace (ya guys did demand the burden of proof on China, right?), Turkey has the burden of proof that Russia violated its airspace.

In an ironic twist, this is where one finally showed some backbone when one drew a red line.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@BB

What are you talking about? This happens all the time.

Never said it didn't. But these constant incursions are probably going to stop for a while, and either the Turkmen are going to get squashed without their air support or they're going to be scurrying back into Turkey. Erdogan made a big blunder.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

At least we know the breed and character of these so-called "moderate" rebels. They kill the pilot in cold blood and cheer Allah Akbar joyfully.

Back in WWI Manfred von Richthofen aka the Red Baron refused orders to strafe ground troops citing it as cowardly and unfair. And all he had was propeller plane made of wood and canvas!

I am no fan of ISIS, but there is no shortage of incongruity and hypocrisy when its us vs them is there? Condemn Russia for its cowardly use of jets against men with nothing more than AK-47s and Toyota pick-ups, and you would no doubt condemn your own country as well.

I think we are all aware that both the moderates and ISIS are being decimated by Russian jets right now, no?. If either side are cowards for killing a pilot parachuting from his war jet, then all pilots who ever bombed ground troops are 1000 to 10,000 times the coward, because that reflects the kill ratio. Remember, it took Turkey to shoot the jet down for them! Like it or not, it takes a hell of a lot more guts to be a rebel or militant on the ground than it does to be a pilot of a war jet against them. Again, I don't like or support ISIS, but if we fail to properly analyze the situation and give credit where its due, we may as well support them. Even innocent locals have seen the foreign jets flying over head and what do you suppose they think?

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

@the refugee"even innocent locals have seen the foreign jets flying over head"

Are you speaking of those "innocent locals" who killed the pilot shouting "allahu akbar" ? Are you so naive ? Those "innocent locals" have fire arms and directly involved in illegal oil business of ISIS.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

@the refugee"even innocent locals have seen the foreign jets flying over head"

Are you speaking of those "innocent locals" who killed the pilot shouting "allahu akbar" ? Are you so naive ? Those "innocent locals" have fire arms and directly involved in illegal oil business of ISIS.

Like the ones having a wedding party when NATO bombed them.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

@yamanashi You do know that there are ISIS fighters, moderate rebels, Assad government troops and innocent locals (often referred to as women, children, old men, farmers, shop keepers etc.) in Syria right? The whole of Syria is not some Hunger Games style war arena.

When I said "innocent locals" I meant "innocent locals", especially those who might wind up joining one of the militant groups, reasoning to do so in part by witnessing cowards bombing militants on the ground with their jets.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

The plane entered Turkish airspace for 17 seconds and they had to shoot it down...?

In 2012, when Syria shot down a Turkish F-4 Phantom, an outraged Erdogan said that: "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack.""

Exactly, but I guess now certain people in Turkish govt are pissed since Russia started bombing IS controlled oil facilities and trucks. It was reported that the Turkish company that resells the smuggled IS oil (and is now loosing millions due to the Russian strikes) is in fact controlled by guess who... the Turkish president`s son.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

The image of a Russian warplane on fire and crashing, caused by a Turkish pilot flying an American-built aircraft, is apt metaphor for macho-man Putin's latest misadventure.

-3 ( +6 / -9 )

Now it is becoming clear why Turkey alone has long been insisting on a no-fly zone inside and along the border of northern Syria.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

@Burning Bush

Maybe because the Russians do not distinguish between moderate Rebels and IS?

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Where is the condemnation about the flagrant violation of the "Law of Armed Conflict" where a parachuting aviator is no longer a combatant and should not be shot at?

When was a sleeping or wounded militant ever afforded such a courtesy by a bomber pilot??? Do you think that EVER, in the history of aerial bombardment, a pilot ever said, "Hey! There is a guy down there with his legs blown off among those enemy troops! He has no weapon! He is a sitting duck and no longer a combatant! Call off the air strikes!"

Thank you so much for helping me illustrate the outrageous double standards people display in war.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

If it flies, it can kill. If it is good enough to defend itself, go ahead and try. So now it is important that a F-16 pilot of other nations to first look at the enemy, decide if it is a fair fight, then flight or fight? What is this situation - a board game or just rhetoric from readers and commenters on blogs? Nothing is " fair in love and war" but, "A fair is place to take your animal to be judged" - an American joke. If anyone really cared about the attacker and the target in the "fairness sense," private oil transporter trucks would not be destroyed by sophisticated air power.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

According to the article there were two Russian Su-24s, the first of which flew on untouched. The second one seems to have caught the wrath of Turkey.

All pilots flying bombing raids over enemy territory will be aware that if they have to come down for any reason, their life will be at the whim of the first armed combatant that sees them. Some on the ground will see red and seek revenge, others will keep calm, regardless of affiliation or cause. It's a lottery out there.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@JeffLee

The image of a Russian warplane on fire and crashing, caused by a Turkish pilot flying an American-built aircraft, is apt metaphor for macho-man Putin's latest misadventure.

Gloating again? Typical. By the way, when US helicopters were shot down in Afghanistan and Iraq by Soviet-made missiles, Russians were not celebrating, though they had a good reason ("apt metaphora for US misadventure"). Very telling difference in decency.

@Dennis Bauer

Maybe because the Russians do not distinguish between moderate Rebels and IS?

To tell you a secret, there is only one difference between IS and so-called moderate rebels: moderates are supplied directly by the US, and IS is supplied indirectly, when moderates return to them with all American supplies.

Well, now Russians have every right to supply their own moderate rebels, I mean Kurds. I hope Russians will deploy air-defence systems to protect these people from attacks of IS-supporting Turkey. No-fly (for Turkey) zones in the north of Syria and Iraq, massive weapons shipments for Kurdish rebels, fighting the brutal regime of Erdogan. And of course, more air strikes by Russian planes in Syria, I hope they'll destroy the whole oil-smuggling operation of IS and Erdogan.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

Maybe because the Russians do not distinguish between moderate Rebels and IS?

Who and where are the "moderate" rebels?

Are they the ones who joyfully cheered Allah Akbar after killing a downed pilot and danced around his mutilated body?

4 ( +10 / -6 )

For anyone who hasn't figured it out yet:

Our friends in the middle east are mainly made up of former enemies, but their enemies are not our enemies, but actually sometimes our friends, except when they fight our friends, which makes them enemies. But if we wait a while, or current friends will often become our enemies, and sometimes our current enemies become our friends - except when they are our enemies and/or are fighting our friends.

Everyone got that straight?

Now let's get the hell out of the Middle East.

7 ( +10 / -3 )

@Asakaze

"Gloating again?"

Nope. Underscoring the folly of a tragically misguided policy.

The burning plunging warplane is a searing image. Like the helicopter at the Fall of Saigon, I'm sure no Russians ever gloated over that one, eh? None. Never.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

I agree - Turkey should be kicked out of NATO. It's a disgusting way to behave towards an ally in wartime.

What, are you delusional? First off, Turkey may very well be the most important strategic member of NATO right now, given its location between Europe and the Middle East. Guess maybe you missed the fact that it borders Syria, Iraq and Iran, as well as many of the former Soviet Republics. Second, Russia was hardly an "ally" to either Turkey or Nato. In fact, Turkey has been warning Russia for weeks about their incursions into Turkey's airspace.

Where is the condemnation about the flagrant violation of the "Law of Armed Conflict" where a parachuting aviator is no longer a combatant and should not be shot at?

Guess it is right there with the condemnation of Russia bombing the hell out of the insurgents to prop up Assad. Seriously, trying to make a moral argument in favor of one side or the other as it pertains to Syria is simply folly. Everyone has blood on their hands.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

One of the pilots getting killed while parachuting kind of makes it a bit hard to take Turkey seriously. Either the plane was indeed shit down over Syria, by Turkey - or it was shot down over Turkey - with a pilot being killed by groundfire. Either way - things are going to get ugly

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Turkey has supported the ISIS, sometimes covertly and most times openly for quite some time now. The Sunni make up of the ISIS, radical Islamist ideology with Turkish the ruling party and the shared utter disdain of anyone remotely secular is what binds these snakes together.

The war against ISIS is being manipulated by the Turks and turned into another cold war. The Turks are hiding behind NATO's skirts after picking up a fight with Russia.

I wish NATO sheds its skirts and puts on trousers for once.

9 ( +9 / -0 )

Ha ha. Turkey gives the big %$#@ you to Putin.,

Good thing we got Turkey's back.

-9 ( +3 / -12 )

@noriyosan73

There is no evidence that Russia has destroyed any IS targets.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Russia+Raqqa which leads to:

Russia bombards Raqqa, ISIS headquarters in Syria http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/17/middleeast/russia-strikes-in-raqqa/

A U.S. defense official says Russia has conducted a "significant number of strikes" in Raqqa in northern Syria in the >past several hours.

So even the US Department of Defense seems to disagree with your conclusion.

@noriyosan73

So now it is important that a F-16 pilot of other nations to first look at the enemy, decide if it is a fair fight, then flight or >fight? What is this situation

First off, none of these nations should be considering other aircraft "the enemy"....they are all ostensibly there to bomb terrorists, and the terrorists don't have an air force, right? Secondly, you could call "this situation" Air Defense Warning Condition/Weapon Control Status "White/Tight". In other words, an encounter with a hostile aircraft is improbable and aircraft need to be positively identified as hostile before engaging. Reference MCWP 3-22 Antiair Warfare, pages 6-6 and 6-7. http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCWP%203-22%20Antiair%20Warfare.pdf

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@JeffLee

Underscoring the folly of a tragically misguided policy

War with IS you call a misgided policy? Very interesting point of view.

the helicopter at the Fall of Saigon, I'm sure no Russians ever gloated over that one, eh?

The war in Vietnam was a shining example of "a tragically misguided policy", good you remember it. Got ready helicopters for the Kabul embassy?

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Sadly, the killing of the pilot and destruction of the rescue helicopter can probably be put down to the inability or unwillingness of the Russians to distinguish between FSA rebels and members of Daesh (IS). Not going to get much sympathy from the people you are bombing.

OK, granted that they shout Allahu Akbar.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

This is a link to a good article that goes to the heart of Turkey`s covert ( and some not so covert ) support for ISIS in order to contain the Kurds and Damascus. Makes a whole lot of sense.

https://undercoverinfo.wordpress.com/2015/11/20/isis-survives-largely-because-turkey-allows-it-to-the-evidence/

8 ( +10 / -2 )

Not saying this contributed to the most recent flare up, but there's long been antagonism between Russia and Turkey for a number of reasons, among them access from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean, and for another the many wars fought by the Russian Empire and the Ottoman Empire from the 16th century to the 20th.

Russia taking (or taking back if you see it that way) the Crimea probably is another sore point that's worrying the Turks.

Empires. Everyone should have stayed home; today everyone should just go back home, get off oil and spend the money saved not fighting on developing other forms of energy.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Turkey needs to be removed from NATO immediately. The once-secular nation is rapidly becoming a mess. After all, let's not forget they purchase oil from Daesh at a cut-rate daily. One wonders if this attack was a thinly-veiled retaliation for Russia destroying Daesh-owned oil wells & supply trucks. There are so many factions & cross-alliances within those factions that I fear we'll never see an end to this war. I hate to say it, but I believe we're already in WW3.

9 ( +9 / -0 )

From the Sydney Morning Herald.

Quote: "The region in which the Russian jet went down – known as the Turkmen Mountains or Jabal al-Akrad – borders Syria and Turkey and has allegedly been subjected to a series of Russian air strikes over the last week that have forced thousands from the Turkmen minority to flee into Turkey, human rights groups say. Turkey had already requested an urgent meeting of the United Nations Security Council over the air strikes on the Turkmen region after at least 1500 civilians fled their homes in Syrian over the border into Turkey on Saturday following the attacks. Tensions between Turkey and Russia escalated early last month when Russian warplanes violated Turkish airspace twice – on October 3 and 4 – violations Russia said had happened by accident due to weather conditions."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/fighter-jet-goes-down-in-flames-near-syrian-border-20151124-gl71gs.html#ixzz3sTYXBBqH

0 ( +2 / -2 )

For those who don't know there are internationally accepted Rules of Engagement in these types of situations.

If radio warnings fail then actual eye contact and hand signals between the two pilots are the next step, followed by escort to landing.

Turkey totally and literally blew all those time honoured rules and procedures out of the sky and just set a dangerous new precedent.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Some interesting points in this ZeroHedge article: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-24/17-seconds-changed-world-leaked-letter-exposes-turkeys-hair-trigger-reality

The Turks claim the Russian jets were in their airspace for 17 seconds....but to cross 1.15 miles in 17 seconds the Su-24s would be flying at an abnormally low speed. Also, it states that the F-16's fired while the target was in Turkish airspace...that gives a VERY small window to achieve a target lock and engage....unless the Turks were locked on and ready to fire before the Su-24 even crossed the border. A pretty textbook example of an itchy trigger finger....

Don't even get me started on the whole "rescue helicopter was shot down by US-supplied guided missile......so obviously there are well-armed insurgents in the area" aspect.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

There are so many factions & cross-alliances within those factions that I fear we'll never see an end to this war.

We're only a part of this war as long as we choose to be. We have as much culpability as ISIS, Turkey, or any of the other participants, by our choosing to participate.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

The USA and Japan should VOLUNTARILY be kicked out of the UN. Who pays most of the UN bills? The USA and Japan do. Who causes all the problems in world? Take a wild guess! It is about time the neighborhood countries defend their territories rather than letting Russia, Iran, et al play war games to test their technology. SCORE: USA technology 1, Russia technology 0. The saddest part is the pilot was defenseless and used as technology practice as he descended in a parachute.

-8 ( +0 / -8 )

For those who don't know there are internationally accepted Rules of Engagement in these types of situations.

If radio warnings fail then actual eye contact and hand signals between the two pilots are the next step, followed by escort to landing.

That's for non-war aircraft.

Don't even get me started on the whole "rescue helicopter was shot down by US-supplied guided missile......so obviously there are well-armed insurgents in the area" aspect.

It was most likely shot by small-arms fire since according to the article:

"One of two helicopters sent to the crash site to search for survivors was also hit by rebel fire, killing one serviceman and forcing the chopper to make an emergency landing, the military said."

With a missile, that would've been a lot worse.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

It was forced down probably by small arms fire, and then we have just seen the video of some rebels firing a TOW missile and destroying it on the ground.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

SCORE: USA technology 1, Russia technology 0.

This wasn't a dogfight, it was a sucker punch by a fighter plane against a bomber routinely flying back to base.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

@Asakaze "Very telling difference in decency."

One need not pay much attention to western sympathizers of ISIS.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Noble713: that gives a VERY small window to achieve a target lock and engage....unless the Turks were locked on and ready to fire before the Su-24 even crossed the border.

You don't scramble planes after someone is in your airspace. Planes approach and planes are sent up, warnings to break off of their current path, etc. It's not like you have to sit there and wait until they are actually inside of your country before contacting them or reacting.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Were the two Russian bombers flying home empty, ie with no bombs left in their bays?

If one was ahead then the Turkish F16s could have locked on to it, as they gave their warnings, but if neither aircraft turned south away from the border as ordered, it surely must have been much simpler and less time-consuming to take out the second one.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

One aspect not mentioned in this is that the islamist Turkish government is mightily upset that Putin has picking off the ISIS oil tankers carrying stolen Syrian oil to Turkey for sale. Erdogan`s Turkey has been a steady financial pillar for the ISIS economy.

What I want to know is: Why do we not read calls for Nato to expel this rabid islamist nutcase from Nato?

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Im from Turkey and I want to make a few things clear.

*We warn Russian jet 10 times for passing our borders and they didnt listen so we shot them. Think same thing happens to your country.! What will you do just sit and watch or take action.

*ISIS isnt an islamic group. They use islam name for their benefits and they show islam very bad. If you investigate islam you will see they are doing the opposite of islam!

*ISIS and Turkey not helping each other. We are enemy from the begining.

*In north Syria there isnt only ISIS. There are Turkmens in there too. And Russia was bombing Turkmens when they saying they were bombing ISIS.

These are Syria and Russian games. Please dont believe them. If you dont believe me at least investigate deeper before talking about this matter!!!

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Planes approach and planes are sent up, warnings to break off of their current path, etc

Happens all the time.

Pilots wave each other off, flip the bird and play a friendly game of chicken, both knowing that neither is a serious threat to the other.

The Turks were well aware that the Russian plane was on a routine mission and posed no actual threat to Turkish security.

The shooting down of the aircraft and subsequent killing of the pilot were way way over the top and fly in the face of 100 years of chivalry among airmen, especially during peacetime.

5 ( +9 / -4 )

The Russians proving to be reckless or foolhardly amateurs. Most probably the latter. They should have suspected the Turks would have reacted this way. The Turks should have shown more restraint given the limited extent of the incursion.

Oh, and Assad, the butcher of thousands of innocent Syrians, hardly legitimate or moderate, certainly a terrorist in his own right. Supporting Assad to maintain a client state, not much of moral high ground.

So, much for the Russian troll-brigade statements that ISIS would be finished in a matter of weeks...

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

@WilliB "oil tankers carrying stolen Syrian oil to Turkey for sale."

Exactly. Nice business of Erdogan's family.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Is Turkey at war with Russia? I haven't heard of many countries who shoot down a plane just because an airspace violation.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

@SuperLib

You don't scramble planes after someone is in your airspace. Planes approach and planes are sent up, warnings to >break off of their current path, etc. It's not like you have to sit there and wait until they are actually inside of your country >before contacting them or reacting.

??? None of what you posted in any way contradicts what I said. I said "achieve a target lock and engage". I'm only talking about the aircraft actually firing its weapon system. Not about scrambling aircraft on strip alert, and not about sending radio warnings.

The missile used was either an AIM-9X (Russian reports state infrared-guided missile, the F-16s were @ ~25km range....kinda long range for an AIM-9 but possible with the -X version) or an AIM-120. The AIM-120 uses active radar during its terminal guidance phase, which should have triggered the Su-24s Radar Warning Receiver. Given the low speed and lack of evasive maneuvers based on the radar track supplied by Turkey, it doesn't appear to have reacted to an RWS/incoming active radar missile. So it's safe to assume it was shot down by an AIM-9X using passive infrared and the Russians never saw the missile coming.

Boresight firing mode is unlikely, it practically requires the F-16 to be chasing the Su-24 at short range. SCAN mode, though, takes a while to achieve a lock.

Here's a vid from a flight simulator to illustrate the two modes: https://youtu.be/VZ51tfsnFws?t=1m50s

Granted, it's a game, but it's probably safe to assume the IR SCAN could take 10-20 seconds to achieve a lock close to the max range of the AIM-9X.

The Tactical Air Operations Center (or whatever the Turkish equivalent is) should not be sending a "Cleared Hot" or "Kill" radio brevity code before the aircraft crosses the border. Nor should the pilot be working through the above weapons engagement process before receiving a Cleared Hot either.

So yeah, pulling that off with just a 17-second window while they are over your territory.....still = irresponsibly itchy trigger fingers.

A slightly-unrelated but very detailed reference: BASIC FIGHTER MANEUVERING (BFM) AND ALL WEATHER INTERCEPT (AWI) https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-825.pdf

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Nice post Noble, very clear, detailed and concise.

I think it's obvious from the available information (even Turkey's own radar map) that the Turks did this with intent and well outside standard international protocol.

Perhaps the ISIS oil tankers that Russia destroyed really was the last straw for Turkey.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Excellent info, Noble. What do you think about the repeated warnings from Turkey? False? True? Technical issue? And any thoughts as to why a Russian plane would be so close to Turkish airspace?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

However, now even the US is indicating that the Russians did not cross into Turkish air space! If the Turks try this again they'll take a severe pounding from the Russians....

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@yamashi

One need not pay much attention to western sympathizers of ISIS.

Thanks for understanding! When read some comments here one began to comprehend why the small Russian air group in Syria in two months achieved much more then the vast US armada achieved in two years.

@gcbel

So, much for the Russian troll-brigade statements that ISIS would be finished in a matter of weeks...

Good memory. Then do you remember Bush's "mission accomplished" thing? That was trolling!

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

"One need not pay much attention to western sympathizers of ISIS."

So if I think Putin is a reckless, incompetent idiot, then obviously I am a "western sympatizer of ISIS."

Too funny.

"the small Russian air group"

Moscow has just announced it's bringing in its large sophisticated missile air defense system to Syria to protect itself. Putin is being sucked into this messy regional conflict, with no exit strategy in sight. Another quagmire in the making.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

What will be response of Russia? The easiest way is cutting their LNG supply to Turkey. Turkey may be blacked out first. Then they may angrily shoot down another plane. If Russia is too soft on Turkey, Putin will become another Obama who has warned Assad for not crossing the red line. Turkey can not survive without gas.

As the Judo player, Putin needs to show his speed, accuracy and precision to Turkish government. Hopefully Putin will prevail to trigger happy and blood thirsty Turkish ground force and Allahu Abakar rebels.

Turkey has already poked Bee nest. Bee will sting back. Putin will not say "you have crossed the red line".

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Alarming. I'm not happy that Russians were bombing Turkmen, nor am I happy that Turks shot down the plane. Still, to be fair, Turkmen are ethnic brethren of the Turks. Can anyone here say that, had a Ukrainian bomber crossed into Russian airspace while bombing ethnic Russian insurgents in eastern Ukraine, Russia would not have responded in a similar matter?

2 ( +4 / -2 )

When they talk about Turkish airspace, are they referring to the Turkish border or the buffer zone declared by Turkey within Syria?

Oh, and Assad, the butcher of thousands of innocent Syrians, hardly legitimate or moderate, certainly a terrorist in his own right. Supporting Assad to maintain a client state, not much of moral high ground.

After hearing and reading so many lies from the west about Assad, I wonder what other lies have been circulating about the guy. I wouldn't be surprised if Assad is actually a really swell guy.

the Turkish company that resells the smuggled IS oil (and is now loosing millions due to the Russian strikes) is in fact controlled by guess who... the Turkish president`s son.

That certainly explains a lot!

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

@SuperLib

What do you think about the repeated warnings from Turkey? False? True? Technical issue?

Hard to say due to a lack of information at this time. Could be any of the following: language barrier, wrong radio frequency (Turks transmitting), wrong radio frequency (Russians listening)... I heard a radio clip on another website, supposedly of the Turkish warning. It was in slow, slightly-muffled English. No idea if its truly authentic, but I doubt pilots with a basic grasp of English would realize the nature of the transmission.

And any thoughts as to why a Russian plane would be so close to Turkish airspace?

Russian GLONASS satnav system could be erroneous (a comment on the previous article touched on this). Russia HAS violated the border before, which is itself a needlessly arrogant gesture. Maybe they expected a more measured response, instead of the Turks turning it up to 11?

The Russian aircraft was supposedly returning from an airstrike deeper in Syria. I've helped develop Airspace Control Measures/an Airspace Control Plan before, and I would not have Control Points used for routing aircraft that close to a clearly-unfriendly and highly territorial nation. Even if I needed to prosecute bombing missions close to the border, I would use killbox/keypad control for their Working Areas, and route them in/out of it along routes that take them clear away from the border. For example, we have something called "Minimum Risk Routes (MRR)". They are kinda like expressways for military aircraft. Given the lack of rebel high-altitude SAMs, you could put an MRR on the map almost anywhere, maybe just avoid certain hotly-contested areas, especially where artillery is flying (generally don't want to cross gun-target lines). Your aircraft that are returning to base should follow the MRR. ...you can change them every few days or so if you are really paranoid....but you shouldn't be RTB'ing sections of fighter-bombers by skirting the border.

If they just bombed Raqqa: "Move to Control Point Boris (get on the highway at Exit 1), follow MRR Natasha to Latakia AB".

If they just bombed Aleppo: "Move to Control Point Ivan (get on the highway at Exit 3), follow MRR Natasha to Latakia AB." Regardless of where the aircraft were just working it should be a trouble-free flight home.

But then, no nation on the planet has the USAF or USMC's level of institutional experience when it comes to operating a dense, tightly integrated airspace. The Russians are building their experience level the same way so many lessons have been learned in military operations: people die, and then someone decides "next time, let's do this a bit differently".

The other complicating factor is there are just too many different Air Forces all flying around Syria and not coordinating with each other. Maybe the Russians are even more concerned about having a close encounter with American pilots who might be highly concentrated in the middle of the country, so they decided to skirt around the whole Area of Operations and just take their chances at bumping into Turkey's border patrols instead?

Apparently the Turkish Foreign Minister called his Russia peer and expressed "condolences", saying they didn't realize the aircraft was Russian (Syria also operates Su-24s). http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151125/1030722974/russia-foreign-ministry-lavrov-press-su24.html

@JeffLee

Putin is being sucked into this messy regional conflict, with no exit strategy in sight.

Russia has had a long-standing relationship with the Syrian regime, probably close to 50 years. If a war breaks out in Korea or Japan, does the US already have an "exit strategy" mapped out? No...we have no intentions to leave either country for now, because being there is in our "national interests" even in peacetime. Same for Russia's support of Syria.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Shooting Down that Russian Warplane was completely unnecessary given The Fact that Turkey knew it was a friendly (Russian Jet) trying to hit The Terrorists.

And I hope Washington is on the Right Side of History here because we are all supposed to be United at taking down the Bad Guys right?

The Terrorists - Right?

Right Turkey?

The bad guys - not your Collarion Partners who mistakingly may have stepped over & into your lawn.

This is why Turkey lost the Olympics - they're a very unstable and somewhat untrustworthy Nation when it comes to peace and security.

Thoughts and prayers to the families of fhe Russian Pilots Killed.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@JeffLee"So if I think Putin is reckless, incompetent idiot, then obviously I am "a western sympathizer of ISIS".

ISIS thugs murdered a pilot and celebrated, dancing and screaming "allahu akbar". You wrote on this forum certain comments that "ISIS did it right".

@Asakaze"Thanks for understanding!".

I understand that any consequences of the incident with SU-24 will be very serious for anyone who supports ISIS. And it doesn't matter whether that ISIS supporter is a member of NATO or not. I know that Putin may say to Erdogan the famous phrase from a Russian cult movie :"You aren't my brother, gnida chernojzopaya!".

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

ISIS - this universal world evil, supports by the policy of the United States. If Syria, Russia and France will lose this war with ISIS, the terrorists attacks are possible in all the towns in all countries. It is necessary for all countries to unite in the fight against ISIS. This was Putin said at a meeting of the UN GA in 2015. The position of Turkey - outspoken support of ISIS. This is very bad. Syrian peaceful moderate opposition has already held talks with Russia and it also advocated fight with ISIS.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

So, much for the Russian troll-brigade statements that ISIS would be finished in a matter of weeks...

Good memory. Then do you remember Bush's "mission accomplished" thing? That was trolling!

I do. So, when do you expect your dear leader to come flying in to declare mission accomplished on ISIS? Any day now?

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

People Russia will do nothing if they could they would have bombed the crap out of turkey. Russia knows that turkey is a NATO member and any country that attacks a NATO member the nation that are member are aligned to protect that member nation. If Russia did respond we would be looking at WWIII. The F-16 is a beautiful bird see them fly everyday. Someone posted that the pilot took a sucker punch lmfao if he had the right technology he would have know he was locked on he could have possibly evaded the missile. If Russian pilot are flying blind like that there is no need for a dog fight it's a cat fight!

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Another idea worth considering is that the Russians successfully goaded the Turks into overreacting, thus creating the necessary diplomatic climate for Russia to justify deploying the S400 to Syria.

With the S400 system deployed, Russian and Syrian jets can freely operate right up to the border with Turkey where all the main Jihadist bases and supply depots are. Up until now those bases have been protected by Turkey's unilateral 10 km no fly buffer zone, hence giving ISIS a safe haven to incubate over the past 3 years.

The Turks just handed the Russians a huge freebie on military action in Syrian in the name of a sympathy card.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

The surviving pilot, who is recuperating at a Russian airbase in northern Syria, denies that the plane was in Turkey’s airspace, and refuted the claims that the pilots were warned repeatedly:

“In actual fact there were no warnings at all. Neither through the radio, nor visually, so we did not at any point adjust our course. You need to understand the difference in speed between a tactical bomber like a Su-24, and that of the F16. If they wanted to warn us, they could have sat on our wing.”

“As it was, the missile hit the back of our plane out of nowhere. We didn’t even have time to make an evasive maneuver.”

And Lavrov believes it was a planned provocation by Turkey.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

@misunderstood"Russia knows that turkey is a NATO member"

So what? Does membership of NATO give a right to attack Russian airplanes or support ISIS ?

"If Russia did respond we would be looking for WWIII."

Russia will respond without doubts. There are many ways to do it. Kurds want to see their own state on a territory of current Turkey. Armenia wishes to regain lost territories. Putin promised to kill terrorists everywhere, including "public restrooms". And he AlWAYS did it. He is a Man of his Word. So, Erdogan or any other ISIS sympathizer, even from NATO, should be killed at a place, sooner or later.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

The USA and Japan should VOLUNTARILY be kicked out of the UN. Who pays most of the UN bills? The USA and Japan do. Who causes all the problems in world?

The U.S.?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Another idea worth considering is that the Russians successfully goaded the Turks into overreacting, thus creating the necessary diplomatic climate for Russia to justify deploying the S400 to Syria.

Exactly! I was thinking the same. Wouldn't put it past the Russians to the risk the lives of their pilots, even sacrifice a couple to try and "goad the Turks" into just such an overreaction.

I expect you overstepped your brief a bit but thank you for your honesty!

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

I support Russia in their struggle against terrorists and this includes Turkey. It took a lot longer than 17 seconds to set up and fire that missile that had to be a AIM-7 Sparrow. The terrorists that Turkey protects killed a helpless pilot ejecting out of his crippled plane. Then there is all of the support of ISIS and the persecution of Christians inside of Turkey. The way I see it is Turkey attacked Russia first over a minor air space violation. I predict a Turkish plane will be shot down next by Russia violating Syrian airspace.

To help Russia and the war on terrorists the Peace treaty between Japan and Russia needs to be signed. Take the 2 islands and drop the issue. Second drop the sanctions on Russia. The Allies of the USA are known terrorists. By not condemning the Turkmons the USA has sanctioned their actions. Think about it and why Russia should not take firm control of the border to prevent the spread of terrorism.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

None of us know all the facts but it is looking like the Turks were looking for a reason to shoot down a Russian jet to prove a point. Frankly I don't trust the autocrat Islamist running Turkey, in fact he makes me trust Putin more and that is saying something. Maybe the fundie government of Turkey wants to scupper cooperation with Russia and the West and for that I hope they fail.

Frankly this conflict is utterly miserable. Every nation involved is doing so for their own geopolitical and selfish reasons and the rank and file Syrians are living in shit. That is the only thing I see as an irrefutable fact. And until an effort is made to end this conflict on humanitarian grounds, the refugee and the radicalization situation is only set to get much, much worse.

Personally I'm finding the story that "Phuc Dat Bich admits hoax in Facebook name battle" much more uplifting right now.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Bush: Another idea worth considering is that the Russians successfully goaded the Turks into overreacting, thus creating the necessary diplomatic climate for Russia to justify deploying the S400 to Syria.

So it's either a premeditated provocation by Turkey in which case these outrageous criminals need to pay a price and be held accountable, or it's a premeditated provocation by Russia which is....brilliant? I guess you have it covered both ways. Should be an interesting conversation for the dead pilot's family over the holidays.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

"Russia has had a long-standing relationship with the Syrian regime, probably close to 50 years. "

And what a successful relationship that has been! Much, much smaller Israel easily smashed Syria's generously supplied and trained Soviet military when Syria and its Arab friends surrounded the tiny country in a bid to destroy it in two wars.

The outnumbered Israelis shot down Syrian Migs like shooting headless chickens.

Both countries -- Russia and Syria -- are losers with a tragic history of failure. Now watch history repeat itself.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

@gcbel

So, when do you expect your dear leader to come flying in to declare mission accomplished on ISIS? Any day now?

No, I do not expect Putin to make any big statements. You see, Russians do not do publicity stunts, they get things done. IS in retreat in Syria (and how IS doing in Iraq, by the way?), and the Russian operation will continue, without unnecessary words, untill victory. Empty declarations are for US presidents ("mission accomplished", "Russian economy in tatters", blah-blah) and for US troll-division here.

@JeffLee

Both countries -- Russia and Syria -- are losers with a tragic history of failure. Now watch history repeat itself.

Very strange statement from a man who on this tread recalled Vietnam. You want to talk about failure after Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya?

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

I am writing from Turkey and Turkish people love than japanese.When I saw comments on this website from japanese people ,we are sorry.Turkey never support ISIS terrorist and turkey wanna keep turkmens alive and turkey guard its borders.Russian airforce bomb the turkmens.Turkey received 3 million syrians and any country didnt help to turkey.Iran and Russian support the Esad who killed the innocent people everyday.Esad compromised Israel and never fight each other.All of the world are against the Turkey .Please dont blame the Turkey about supporting terrorism , we love the japan and japanese.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

"You want to talk about failure after Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya?"

The Soviet Union collapsed and died, remember? The US survives and remains the world's No. 1 economy and most powerful superpower. Russia's influence and power is weakening day by day.

Anyway, the response was about the legacy of the Soviet-Syria military alliance.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

@JeffLee

The Soviet Union collapsed and died, remember? The US survives and remains the world's No. 1 economy and most powerful superpower.

USSR and present Russia are not the same. Anyway, for now, US is the No.1 economy, but it also the world's top debtor. US present political / economy model just does not work, it is unsustainable, it eats much more then it earns. Are you sure US will not follow the path of USSR soon? We'll see in several years.

Russia's influence and power is weakening day by day

Really?? You believe in Obama's fairytail "Russia is isolated"? OK, let's see: in the past two weeks Putin met or had extensive conversations with leaders of US, Germany, France, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and that not to mention just usual, everyday working contacts with world leaders. You think that a president with weakening power could be so busy? Well, you can believe in everything you want, but reality is different from your beliefs.

the response was about the legacy of the Soviet-Syria military alliance.

It was not exactly an alliance. USSR provided weapons and some advice, Syrians fought on their own. Now we can talk about Russian-Syrian military alliance, because the two countries fight together. And it seems that the alliance works pretty well, IS and other (Nusra etc) in disarray and retreating, despite massive support from Turkey and Qatar. Can you say the same about US military alliances with Afghanistan and Iraq?

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

@hemonur, Turkey shot down a Russian aircraft for a very brief if any incursion into Turkey. They might was well killed 2 Russians. This lets be friends with Russia after an act of war is not going to work. As far as I am concerned Turkey fired the first shot in a new war. So Turkey wants war and they are going to get it! Next time a Turkish plane flies into Syria it will be shot down. I still think Turkey will attack Russian forces in Syria to protect its terrorists. удачи храбрые русские силы

2 ( +2 / -0 )

"it is unsustainable,"

And yet it is No. 1.

An example of an unsustainable country was the Soviet Union. Putin was a KGB officer while that country existed. That means his job was to defend and protect the USSR. Instead, the country collapsed. Clearly, did he didn't do a very good job. Having Putin on your team is a dangerous liability.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

@JeffLee

And yet it is No. 1

For a while. What will happen to it when China and Japan stop buying US debt? And others follow? I'm not sure that US will be even in the first dozen of world economies. Before Obama US debt was 8 billions, now it is 18. You call it a sustainable economy model? Well, then how US is going to pay off this debt?

his job was to defend and protect the USSR. Instead, the country collapsed. Clearly, did he didn't do a very good job

You mistook Putin for allmighty God. One intelligence officer, even exellent one, can not save a whole country.

Having Putin on your team is a dangerous liability

It seems that Germans, French, Chinese, Indians, Iranians and a lot of others have very different opinion.

And I'm happy you have nothing say on the Syrian part of my previous reply.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

@asakaze

do not do publicity stunts, they get things done. IS in retreat in Syria (and how IS doing in Iraq, by the way?), and the Russian operation will continue, without unnecessary words, untill victory

Funny, the RT trolls seem to have pretty big mouths and grand pronouncements as to the how Russia was going to get things done. And when will that be? Must be a matter of days or weeks since you're there doing it the right way, eh? So, by Christmas? If not then I guess just pretending to fight ISIS?

So. Assad, your idea of humanitarian of the year or will you support and murderous dictator?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@gcbel

Funny, the RT trolls seem to have pretty big mouths and grand pronouncements as to the how Russia was going to get things done. And when will that be? Must be a matter of days or weeks since you're there doing it the right way, eh?

Funny, VOA trolls seem to have very big mouth and very little brain to understand even simplest sentences. All right, I repeat: there will be no announcements from Moscow about when the present Russian air campaign in Syria ends. It's war there, and war has no schedule. If you're looking for cool announcements you should ask the White House, guys there are very good at it. "Mission accomplished" is my favourite - Bush said it in 2003, and the war is still there, twelve years after.

Assad, your idea of humanitarian of the year

No. He is just a lesser evil. US toppled Saddam, and what happened to Iraq? US toppled Qaddafi, and what happened to Libya? You want the same for Syria? You never learn...

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

"What will happen to it when China and Japan stop buying US debt?"

China stopped buying US debt last summer and called much of it in, after its stock market plunge. The result to the US? Nothing.

The difference between my posts and yours is that I cite things that actually happen to prove my points. You cite things that don't happen. Thus, your points are NOT proven. In fact, they are a fantasy.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

I repeat: there will be no announcements from Moscow about when the present Russian air campaign in Syria ends. It's war there, and war has no schedule.

I wasn't expecting them from Moscow... But from you guys, the folks who were all about how Russia was going to show how it was done. ... US not really fighting ISIS, Russia will do it.... So, not so much, now? Figures.

No, he's just your lesser evil.

Aligning yourselves with a murderous thug who's killed thousands of innocents so you can preserve your petty client state because "he's a lesser evil"? Pretty weak... So by that standard you'd support Al Nusra over ISIS? That's rich. Just please don't come back claiming any kind of moral high ground. Laughably inane.

Not only not very bright but morally bankrupt...

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@JeffLee

I cite things that actually happen to prove my points

Yes, yes, the part about Russia's influence weakening was particularly entertaining, I had very good laugh. Thank you!

Have you read this?

http://www.japantoday.com/category/opinions/view/in-syria-the-jokes-on-washington#comment_2099013

Thus, your points are NOT proven. In fact, they are a fantasy

So, US debt of 18 billion is my fantasy? Let's see:

http://www.usadebtclock.com/

Enjoy! And think about your future.

@gcbel

So, not so much, now? Figures

Enjoy!

http://eng.syria.mil.ru/en/index/syria/news/more.htm?id=12066437@egNews

Aligning yourselves with a murderous thug who's killed thousands of innocents

In Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya US killed much more innocent people then Saddam, Qaddafi and Assad killed together. US military is the biggest killer in the world, so all your moralizing lectures are pathetic, to put it mildly. And your allies? Saudi Arabia and Qatar, both shining models of democracy. One is invading a foreign country (S.Arabia in Yemen), another is the biggest sponsor of such nice guys as Al-Nusra and so on. "US, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, the league of democracy"!!! And yes, Turkey! ISIS' biggest smuggling partner and the Kurds killer.

Frankly, I'd prefer Assad. At least he does not invade other countries and he does not fund terrorist groups.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

so all your moralizing lectures...

Heh.... The old Soviet tu quoque argument: "and you're lynching negroes!". Pretty weak and not very original. You're basically deflecting. You can't defend a position by saying someone else's is worse. We're talking about Russian support for Assad.

Frankly, I'd prefer Assad.

You're basically defending that Russian support for Assad on the basis "yeah, he's terrible and slaughters but hey it's small price to pay for Tartus naval base". Dead babies for bases. Russia moral authority... not

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

The old Soviet tu quoque argument: "and you're lynching negroes!"

Wow, good command of Soviet realities! Old "Cold War warrior", CIA Moscow station? Old hatreds die hard, heh?

Pretty weak and not very original. You're basically deflecting. You can't defend a position by saying someone else's is worse. We're talking about Russian support for Assad.

Your ability for empty talk and ignoring reality is amazing! Do you think your position is "strong and original"? Don't fool yourself.

I don't want to waste my time on you, it's hopeless. Just several points:

US is the worst aggressor in the world who destroyed several countries (Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya), killed many thousands of innocent people and brought misery to millions;

to achieve its purposes (control of Middle Eastern oil) US allies with such scum as Saudi Arabia and Qatar, in comparison to them Assad looks like a poster child of liberty;

after all its crimes any attempts by US to judge other countries for "human rights violations" look like Hitler pointing to a San Quentin convict - "Hey, he also killed people";

if even twelve years of war in Iraq and the attack at Benghazi did not teach you a lesson that a secular dictator is much better then hordes of Moslem extremists, then it only demonstrates rank stupidity of US policymakers and US public that supports them.

Period. End of discussion.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

If you want to compare records, your Soviet/Russian history doesn't put you in good stead at all. From before WWII to present day aggression in Ukraine... millions of victims, including millions of your own. But that's beside the point isn't it. What's in question is Putin's support of Al-Assad. Your tu quoque fallacy doesn't fly. Your lesser of evils doesn't fly.

Simply put Russia supports a man, regime that is guilty of crimes against humanity. That means you don't get to play the moral power card.

Now, end of discussion.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Prayers for the pilot's family. He died fighting evil.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Simply put Russia supports a man, regime that is guilty of crimes against humanity.

No, Assad's big crimes are that Syria's central bank is government controlled, Syria has no IMF debt, and Syria has resources that others want. Because of these "terrible crimes", the West is always lying about Assad, so I am very suspicious of any accusations. I wouldn't be surprised if Assad was in fact a really swell guy!

-11 ( +1 / -12 )

The ejecting pilots are protected under the Geneva Convention Rules of war. You can not kill prisoner or mistreat a prisoner. Punishable by death or imprisonment. it's time to bring the killers to justice.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

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