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Turkey, U.S. can turn Raqa into 'graveyard' for IS: Erdogan

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Tell Erodgan to stuff it, bar them from joining the EU and boot them from NATO.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

Russia, as every other country, should mind their own nation and not be eager to wreak havoc unto another one. Blant statistics hardly reflect harsh and multidimensional reality.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

And yes, boot Ergodan further from the civilized part of the world.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

In Syria,

Terrorists to Assad, Russia and Iran are anyone anti-Assad, and IS, and some neutral humanitarian groups like the white helmets.

Terrorists, to the US, are al-Qaida and al-Nusra radical rebels, and IS.

Terrorists to Turkey are IS, and Kurdish PKK and related Syrian Kurdish YPG.

Terrorists to Israel are Hezbollah.

Terrorists to the Kurds are IS and the Turkish government.

Not much common ground.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Russia was way more successful in liberating Aleppo than the US has been in their attempt at Mosul.

Aleppo civilian casualties: 614

(wikipedia: Aleppo offensive November to December 2016)

Why are you limiting the offensive on Aleppo to just 1 month (Nov 2016 - Dec 2016)?

The Battle of Aleppo began July 2012 until December 2016 (4 years, 5 months), with the last offensive June - December 2016 lasting 7 months - and that's with bombing the hell out of Aleppo. It's amazing you didn't even link the Wikipedia article you're referencing - since it's right there on the title and URL "Battle of Aleppo (2012–16)":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_ofAleppo(2012%E2%80%9316)

You don't get to waive off all those years and months worth of military offensives just because it was a stalemate. Even throughout the stalemate, Syria-Russia were still bombing the hell out of Aleppo and killing civilians along with it. Those civilians who died due to those previous years of bombings should not be forgotten.

Iraqi forces are fighting street by street, not bombing the hell out of Mosul. That's why it's slower, but that's better for Mosul residents and preserves the city to be livable instead of the massive destruction that happened in Aleppo.

Half a million people --in a large city the size of Mosul-- fleeing their homes is better instead of getting bombed in their homes like what happened in Aleppo. At least the fleeing Mosul residents will have homes to return to once the battle is over, unlike the Aleppo residents whose homes were already bombed into the stone age - they have no more homes to return to (if that's the Russians' idea of getting the job done -by bombing the hell out of the Aleppo residents' homes-- then Mosul is better off without that).

@zichi

Here's the figures we have so far:

https://japantoday.com/category/world/iraqi-forces-launch-offensive-to-drive-is-from-western-mosul

Just from the last year alone:

http://www.dchrs.org/english/File/Aleppo_Genocide_Oct_01_to_Dec_14_2016_Report_English.pdf

2016 -- Syria + Russia airstrikes = Aleppo civilians

Jan -- 42 + 241 = 283

Feb -- 42 + 217 = 259

Mar -- 47 + 34 = 81

Apr -- 250 + 122 = 372

May -- 205 + 46 = 251

Jun -- 385 + 90 = 475

Jul -- 560 + 226 = 786

Aug -- 311 + 115 = 426

Sep -- 101 + 532 = 633

Oct -- 406 + 133 = 539

Nov -- 579 + 243 = 822

Total Aleppo civilians = 4927

And that's only 2016 - remember, the Battle of Aleppo started in 2012, so we don't have figures yet for 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015. Plus, there's a good chance that the last year of 2016 has the lowest # of those years simply because the previous years of 2012-2015 had already killed off most of the people (so there's already less people living in 2016 to be able to be killed). Usually it's at the start of the operation that has the highest # of casualties simply because that's when the most # of people still alive.

If anybody has more data, feel free to share the data - and please provide direct links as much as possible

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Aleppo civilian casualties: 614** [this # is missing from the Wiki below]

(wikipedia: Aleppo offensive November to December 2016)

Mosul civilian casualties: 4864 and counting by the day

(wikipedia: Battle of Mosul 2016-2017)

From the figures It looks like in Aleppo 2011-2016 at least 35,000 civilians were killed. But all wars are nasty and I also believe that in war there are no winners only losers.

Guessing those are total civilians - anybody know how it breaks down between sides?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Well, I am not a quantity lover, but I can tell you that both sides are profoundly handicaped and have caused endless, yet to end, suffering to rightful owners of the land they are dropping bombs on as if it is a "battleship" game.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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