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Turmoil deepens as Scotland threatens to block Brexit; 11 Labour Party members quit

77 Comments
By GREGORY KATZ

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The Scots have good reason to be miffed. One of the arguments that helped swing the vote in the Scots referendum away from independence was the threat that as an independent nation Scotland would not be part of the EU. Now they're being told that as part of the UK, they will not be part of the EU.

16 ( +19 / -3 )

Just leave the UK and join the EU by yourself.

11 ( +14 / -3 )

If Scotland and N. Ireland want to leave the UK, I bet guys like Farange would say "We must be united for the sake of stability" or some hypocritical statement like that.

10 ( +14 / -4 )

Many people apparently meant their vote as a protest to express frustration with the EU or hostility towards immigrants. But, they assumed it would never actually pass, so they didn't really think through the consequences of leaving the EU. Now they're stuck with a crashing economy and wish they could go back and vote properly.

People considering voting for Trump as a way to express their frustration need to sit down and take a long, sober look at what would actually happen if he were to win. You need to vote for the person you think would be the best president, not use voting as a means of self expression or as a way to blow off steam.

10 ( +14 / -4 )

Corbyn has made his party completely unelectable. With 90 percent of Labour Party MPs voting Remain, and much of the traditional working class backbone of the party backing Leave, it only seems natural he should quit. He is like Masuzoe if he thinks he can survive his shadow cabinet quitting on him. It is ironic that he fired Benn, a far more erudite, moderate and rational person, who will likely become one of the front-runners to replace him.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

I'm looking at the picture and wondering if First Minister Nicola Sturgeon isn't related to Angelea Merkel; they could be sisters! Anyway, gogogo said it best; just leave the UK and join the EU by yourself.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

9,053,585.84 exit EU

8,357,156.16 stay EU

Where do you get those numbers? The vote was 16,141,241 (48.1%) to stay, 17,410,742 (51.9%) to leave, a margin of 1,269,501.

http://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

If the vote had been the other way, and the "leave" camp had lost by 700,000 votes, you would not bring up this issue at all, would you?

The issue was indeed brought up by Nigel Farage before the voting, when it seemed likely Leave would lose.

(16th May) The Ukip leader .... warns that a '52-48 result would be unfinished business'... he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

What's good for the goose (aka turkey voting for Christmas)...

6 ( +6 / -0 )

"If Scotland and N. Ireland want to leave the UK, I bet guys like Farange would say "We must be united for the sake of stability" or some hypocritical statement like that."

I've been convinced for a long time that the Tories ( Farage is basically a rightwing Tory and UKIP may end up in the Tory fold ) want Scottish independence to get the full length of their claws into England and Wales. Labour may still be dreaming of wooing back some of the traditional Labour vote in Scotland but that's looking remoter by the day.

I'm very pessimistic about the future of England and Wales at the hands of what looks like Boris Johnson off the EU leash. I can't see Corbyn or Benn with his Tory-lite approach stopping him. Johnson will tear the spine out of those not on their radar of possible voters and stomp all over their heads with shouts of Buller, Buller.

The UK is hopelessly divided. The divisions within England and Wales are going to get wider.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

I didn't spend a lot of time studying this. I relied on the people I respect, like some of my friends, and people like Bill Maher, John Oliver, Jamelle Bouie. And now I can see the reaction.

Someone else on JT summed it up when he said that some people are just losers. They decide they aren't happy so just blow up the system and take everyone else down with you. The same thing is happening with Trump supporters in America. They are angry and they feel like they are losing so what's to lose by electing Trump?

If the Brits are smart they will find a way out of this. Don't destroy the younger generation.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Should Scotland leave the UK and stay in the EU they would attract plenty of England based businesses (british or not) who just can't afford to leave the EU. That's jobs and money.

Why would the Scots accept to remain a satellite of an isolated England when they can have access to a bigger market on their own? Hope they play hard ball.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Sore losers.

Not so... it was in their manifesto at the last election. They won with a mandate to do what they said they would do should Scotland be taken out of the EU against our will... and that's happened. For Sturgeon NOT to carry out her manifesto pledge would be to lie to the millions who voted the SNP back into power. I'm no fan of the SNP, but I voted to remain in the EU, so I'm on her side in this one... and I never thought I would say that! I don't know if she can halt Brexit, but here's hoping...

I don't want the break up of the UK, but I also don't want to leave the EU... democracy in action.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@Daniel Neagari and Laguna

Good points and I'd add a third. This is from the Guardian:

"And, outside Scotland and London, they were mostly ignored. “A large constituency of working-class voters feel that not only has the economy left them behind, but so has the culture,” the American political philosopher Michael Sandel said in a recent interview. “The sources of their dignity, the dignity of labour, have been eroded and mocked by … globalisation, the rise of finance, the attention that is lavished by parties across the political spectrum on economic and financial elites, [and] the technocratic emphasis of the established political parties.” A lot of the energy animating Brexit, said Sandel, had been “born of this failure of elites”.

I'd change that final quote to the deliberate and cynical carving up of British society which started in the Thatcher years and was never dealt with by leaders who followed. Us and them. Those shafted after 1979 were ignored by the party which was supposed to speak on their behalf and so many of them spoke last Thursday.

The tragedy for me is that they are in for even more punishment in the likely event of an even more vicious Tory government as a result of that vote. The Torygraph is already getting all giddy and slobbering at the idea of a "Dream Team" comprising the likes of Johnson and Gove.

A vision of the head of the robot in 'Alien' telling Ripley and the crew that they have his sympathies popped into my head.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

She looks a lot like Angela Merkel. Makes me wonder is she's as tough and altruistic. Second act?

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Corbyn still has the overwhelming support of the left-wing rank and file of the Labour Party who want to purge the party platform of right-wing Nulabour ideology, the bastard legacy of Bliar and his henchmen, but the vultures in his shadow-cabinet with their highly developed predatory instincts can smell the way the wind is blowing from the political cadavers left by the back-to-the-future Brexit vote. The eagle eyes of Hilary Benn have spotted a chance to take advantage of the anxieties and fears of traditional Labour working-class voters who were confused and duped by the chauvinistic right-wing gutter press and stampeded "Exit Right". The disaffected cabinet members and the Blairite wing of the party have calculated with Machiavellian logic that in order to win the next (snap?) election they must swoop down sharply to the right if they want to capture the voters' hearts weakened by decades of austerity and neo-liberal propaganda, but if Benn and his renegades succeed, they will have driven a stake through the heart of the Left making a Little England of Great Britain, a nation of repressed, insular navel-gazers. R.I.P. UK.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

May be a free Scotland is near in the future

3 ( +4 / -1 )

KC:

Seriously, what are you talking about? One vote would have been conclusive. Your numbers are wrong, by the way. Actually, it was: Leave 17,410,742 (51.89%), Remain 16,141,241 (48.11%). Not a 700,000-vote margin but nearly 1,300,000. Not massive, I agree, but clear enough and nobody is challenging it.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

I fully support if Scotland or N. Ireland want to leave the UK. Just as right since the UK wanted to leave the EU. Fair is fair. More independence for all as far as I'm concerned.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

9,053,585.84 exit EU

8,357,156.16 stay EU

Where do you get those numbers? The vote was 16,141,241 (48.1%) to stay, 17,410,742 (51.9%) to leave, a margin of 1,269,501.

I have no idea where he got the numbers, but you'll notice that both his numbers added together total the votes to leave.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

It's surprising that 16 years into the 21st century Britain still rules Northern Ireland, a vestige of the 19th century colonialism. Give it back to Ireland and the people in Northern Ireland would be able to remain in EU

What about the wishes of the population though? Support for remaining in the UK is way higher in Northern Ireland than support for joining the Republic of Ireland.

Or at least it was until the Referendum. Being part of Ireland now confers the comparative benefit of being an EU citizen, so maybe the tide will turn in favor.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

"Jimizo... it was a referendum on EU membership, not whether Mrs Higginbottom of Pudsey feels disenfranchised by Tory policies. That's what annoys me... it seems to me that a large number of people who voted Leave used it as a protest against the Tories... which appears to have surprised even the Leave team...."

Many of the people I'm talking about had a sense of 'can't get any worse'. They expected to get screwed by the Tories but then they discovered that the Labour Party were too busy wooing the middle classes, bombing the living daylights out of Iraq and kissing the arses of the bankers.

I can see where the 'eff it' attitude comes from but I think it can get worse and my prediction is it will.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

This just might be a clever ploy: Scotland tries to block the referendum, the British government nixes it, and the Scottish independence camp has even more fuel.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Well which is it? Be independent or stay in EU? By being independent you get to be both independent and in the EU. By forcing England to stay in the EU you don't get independence.

Yes, the irony is obvious. But that is politics; what we wanted yesterday is not what we want today, and what we want tomorrow will not be what we wanted today. At even then, we don't really know what we want; our leaders tend to tell us what we want, and when we want it, pretending that our interests are the same as theirs. But that is very seldom the case.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

sf2k, sangetsu03:

There is no contradiction and no irony. The current Scottish leadership has made it clear that is wants to be independent of the UK, i.e. no longer dominated by English politics and policies, but that it wants to remain under the EU umbrella, a common view with nearly every part of Europe except, as recently demonstrated, England and Wales.

kcjapan:

I suggest you stick to your entertaining comments on US politics which seem to be more your thing.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@CrazyJoe

Many people apparently meant their vote as a protest to express frustration with the EU or hostility towards immigrants. But, they assumed it would never actually pass, so they didn't really think through the consequences of leaving the EU.

I just wish people would come to terms with the fact that those you mention were in fact responsible adults voting in a democratic referendum. It was a close race, but a fair vote. The outcome is what it is! How long will the whinging continue? The voters got what they wanted! Now deal with it, people!

If this is anything to go by, I can only imagine the sh*tstorm that will entail if Trump becomes President.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

If that is so, that would be the stupidest argument ever. Since as an independent nation, they could join the Brussels empire anytime. Come again??

Its not so simple, independent countries dont have a right to join the EU, they must apply for it and any existing member can block their entry. Spain has already come out against an independent Scotland joining since they dont want to set a precedent of a breakaway country joining (concerned about Basque seperatism in their own country), so its far from clear that an independent Scotland could become a member state on its own.

How much would it need to be "conclusive"? A majority is a majority, and the UK is a democracy. If the vote had been the other way, and the "leave" camp had lost by 700,000 votes, you would not bring up this issue at all, would you? The decision to leave has been made, and the process was begun before the vote was taken, the vote itself was part of that process.

If you required a super majority to change policy, you would find that policy would never change, as it is extremely rare that two-thirds or three-quarters of politicians or voters ever agree on any matter.

The inherent problems with democracy is that the majority is not always right, and that democracy is extremely easy to corrupt and influence. But the alternatives are weaker still, as all political systems are run by human beings, who are fallible.

Its a fair point, Leave clearly won the referendum and its pretty senseless to be trying to move the goal post further back now by suggesting they should have had a super-majority requirement or something like that. The genie is out of the bottle at this point anyway.

That said I wouldnt view this as a problem with democracy per se, but I do view it as a problem with referendums on questions like this. It was idiotic to put such a complex issue as membership in the EU to a simple yes/no vote at this stage (after 40 years of membership when so much of the UKs economic, social and political existence has come to be predicated on membership) when the results of that have massive and direct consequences for so many other issues (Scottish independence, the Northern Irish peace settlement, the role of the City in international finance, immigration, trade, international relations, etc etc).

The problem is that most people were probably voting based on their opinions on one thing (immigration or aversion to EU regulations for many) while either ignoring or simply being ignorant of the consequences of the vote on so many other things. This is really evident from the reaction of the main Leave campaign political leaders like Boris Johnson and Gove, who legitimately seem dismayed at having won the referendum because they know they have unleashed so many damaging and contradictory forces in so many areas that they have no idea how they are supposed to deal with them.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Boris Johnson was all for "another vote" if his side lost 52-48, in an article a week before the vote. "It would be unfinished business," he said. So Boris, since you won by 52-48, and since your side told wanton lies, how about another vote?

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Seriously London, just save a whole lot of time and money by granting Scotland independence without a referendum please.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Jimizo... it was a referendum on EU membership, not whether Mrs Higginbottom of Pudsey feels disenfranchised by Tory policies. That's what annoys me... it seems to me that a large number of people who voted Leave used it as a protest against the Tories... which appears to have surprised even the Leave team... so much so that they have no idea what they're doing next.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@ us reamer

This sudden rush to force out Corbyn is also about the imminent general release of the Chilcot report and it's apparent "savaging" of Blair. The report will be debated in parliament in a couple of weeks and the very last thing the Blairites want is Corbyn standing up to denounce him, hence this shocking campaign to discredit a democratically elected leader.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/06/still-iraq-war-stupid/

2 ( +2 / -0 )

You'd complain too if you lived here. It's a miserable place and we like it that way.

Look on the bright side, albaleo. This might not apply much longer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29-LRuuqFT0

2 ( +2 / -0 )

“If the Scottish Parliament was judging this on the basis of what’s right for Scotland, then the option of saying ‘We’re not going to vote for something that is against Scotland’s interests,’ of course, that is on the table,” she said of the possibility of withholding consent." - article

How wonderfully sane!

Scotland, the Brave.

Saving England, again, from her worst conceits.

(Trump's GOP-tea model mob rule?)

1 ( +6 / -5 )

Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa Villiers, Cameron’s lead official in Belfast, played down the suggestion that the Scottish Parliament or the Northern Ireland Assembly had the standing to prevent a British departure from the EU.

Further context: Villiers' veto (and arguably her colonial role based in a castle outside Belfast) puts paid to the fantasy of local democracy in Northern Ireland, where her Conservative party enjoys only 0.4% of the local vote.

More importantly, Villiers was a key campaigner for Brexit, an initiative counter to the wishes of a large majority her subjects, and which poses a very real threat to the Irish peace process.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

"The outcome is what it is!" - comments

Please explain what that outcome is?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Well, clearly the vote isn't fait accompli. So, what is the effect of the vote?

The votes have been counted and declared. What else are you waiting for? I sincerely wish it wasn't a fait accompli, but unfortunately it is. Unless you can enlighten us to some alternative truth. To answer your question, the effect of the vote was to determine whether the UK would remain in the EU, or leave.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

"They are angry and they feel like they are losing so what's to lose by electing Trump?" - comments

This is what the next 135 days hangs on.

Angry people, made angry by Trump, to carry a National Election, where more than half of the GOP-tea hate Trump?

The quote describes too closely the wounded warrior who takes justice into his own hands. That's spooky.

Reality, Trump has already lost. He can't take his Carnival Barker Act any further. He's become a clown.

for Trump fans, some new vocabulary: Fait accompli: An accomplished fact; an action which is completed before those affected by it are in a position to query or reverse it.

Guess where Donald J. Trump falls, fait accompli?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I don't know why Mr Dawson is worried. If he has lived in Spain for 23 years he can apply for Spanish nationality. Problem solved.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

9,053,585.84 exit EU

8,357,156.16 stay EU

The point is: Nothing has been decided and the margin is inconclusive.

700,000 votes aren't a mandate to leave and the process hasn't begun to leave.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Poorly conceived and badly executed. The referendum is non-binding; a vote by the Westminster Parliament is required. However, there is also the Scotland Act of 1998, the statute which recreated the Scottish Parliament.

Clause 29 of that Act, anent legislative competence, empowers the Scottish Parliament to legislate in the devolved areas for which it is responsible - while obliging it to take care that nothing it does is "incompatible" with EU law. In short, EU law has force in Scotland and, in devolved areas, is enacted and implemented by the Scottish Parliament, not Westminster.

What seems likely is that the Scotland Parliament will vote against leaving the EU; Westminster will note the objection and overrule it; and two crises will ensue. One is legal: Do parliaments of constituent states within the UK have legal standing to veto such an important decision? The second is logical: If Westminster can ignore the 62% of Scots who voted to remain in the UK, couldn't it equally well ignore the 52% of English who voted to remain?

The Brexit vote has raised a substantial number of questions and answered none. What a mess. This is a good read:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-36635012

1 ( +2 / -1 )

It's Really? most votes need 60 to 66%. not sure I agree - 50/50 is the norm (e.g. US presidential and congressional elections, UK parliamentary votes by constituency etc etc). whatever we feel about the result, it was a result. I wonder that these days so many results are questioned and not accepted by those on the losing side. not sure why. Education (no one is ever a loser)?? . Polarisation (can never accept the other side of an argument)??

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Ironic that Scotland could save England's bacon, seeing how most Scots like Westminster as little as knuckle-dragging "Leave" voters like Brussels - or immigrants, or those with posh accents, in regular employment... baiscally, class envy and jealousy egged on by UKIP and the Murdoch media has been allowed to threated the wole of Europe, if not the wider world - and the hell of it is, Cameron never had to call the referendum - he did it to see of Farage and UKIP. Churchill must be spinning in his grave.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I've been convinced for a long time that the Tories ( Farage is basically a rightwing Tory and UKIP may end up in the Tory fold ) want Scottish independence to get the full length of their claws into England and Wales.

It has crossed my mind too. But I can't see the mandarins happy to lose a large stretch of territorial waters. With an independent Scotland, and with both countries either in or out of the EU, it's possible to imagine a joint defense strategy. But not with one in and the other out.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

They're always complaining about something...

You'd complain too if you lived here. It's a miserable place and we like it that way.

And tell Boris where he can stick Trident.

What do you mean? It's ours, isn't it. ;-)

1 ( +1 / -0 )

"And tell Boris where he can stick trident"

His mistresses won't like the sound of that.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

"The result on Thursday saw 52% of voters, 17,410,742 people, back a British exit, on a turnout of 72%." source: More than 2.5 million and rising sign UK petition for new EU referendum, JT

"I have no idea where he got the numbers, but you'll notice that both his numbers added together total the votes to leave." - comments

The source of the error? Misreading and Math.

Interesting, even in error, the fallout from exitEU is like a Manhattan project gone wrong.

As other commentary has made clear, most of exitEU wasn't thought through.

A catastrophic financial battering has shown the instability of the idea at its roots.

Helping Britain would mean less uncertainty and less complication.

ExitEU has failed on day one. *(

1 ( +2 / -1 )

"kcjapan: I suggest you stick to your entertaining comments on US politics which seem to be more your thing." - comments

Here's a thing:

“We’re very scared because I’ve been here 23 years. I’ve got my house. My kids were born here, they went to a British-Spanish school. I’ve got a bar. I’ve got a lot to lose,” Dawson said at his pub in Benidorm, on the Mediterranean coast. - article

Somehow one's thing is little more than a stick in the eye.

The topic is, the article reveals the impact of exitEU.

Here's a thing:

"Also, how serious was a vote that only demands debate? Bit of a panic in a tea pot. Another vote for a vote."

Which summarizes the significance of the vote.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

KC:

“We’re very scared because I’ve been here 23 years. I’ve got my house. My kids were born here, they went to a British-Spanish school. I’ve got a bar. I’ve got a lot to lose,” Dawson said at his pub in Benidorm, on the Mediterranean coast. - article

Not sure why you are quoting this but yes there are many many reasons why a 'Leave' vote was foolish and wrong. So I guess we are agreeing on that point but it is unrelated to your earlier posts.

"Also, how serious was a vote that only demands debate? Bit of a panic in a tea pot. Another vote for a vote."

You've mentioned this twice now, but I don't get your point. Are you trying to suggest that the result of the referendum doesn't matter and that the UK will not in fact leave the UK? If you want to make that contentious argument, I think you need to explain and support it in some way.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

...that the UK will not in fact leave the EU...

is what I meant, of course.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Also, how serious was a vote that only demands debate? Bit of a panic in a tea pot. Another vote for a vote."

"You've mentioned this twice now, but I don't get your point." - comments

Well, clearly the vote isn't fait accompli. So, what is the effect of the vote?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

So some people don't want to let Britain leave, and others can't get rid of them fast enough. I don't know... I don't see a way that all this winds up being positive for anybody, but maybe things will sort themselves out.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

if the majority in a referendum where the winning line is 50% vote to leave, what is unclear? how can there be talk of it not being enough? Or another referendum?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

This World is a long, long way off from being an all inclusive Star Trekkish 'global' community. When the EU was first formed, everyone was in a tail spin about 'how are so many Nations with different languages, currencies, borders going to 'coexist' as one. Didn't quite work out the way the United States did....'borders, language, culture' build a Nation and sustain it. Many Japanese were worried sick at the end of World War Two, how would the Japanese even survive under Allied rule?!! Turned out alright. Germany too, even after the Wall fell and the two Germany's reunited. China after the Civil War, Vietnam after the 'war'. S. Africa after apartheid....not doing too well. The U.K. is just going to have to see how things roll out, and I feel they will be just fine. Scotland needs to just chill out, they are a bigger player on the board than they used to be, and will have a lot more say so in the future of the U.K. ....

0 ( +2 / -2 )

"The outcome is what it is!" - comments - Please explain what that outcome is?

Some have asked for clarification of what the vote means.

Few have offered description. yuk, yuk, yuk.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

"The decision to leave has been made, and the process was begun before the vote was taken, the vote itself was part of that process." - comments

This is incredibly wrong.

It is a wonder some crave no comment on their poverty of knowledge.

If one hasn't any idea what the vote was for, do your research and answer with authority.

Otherwise, don't complain someone else has higher standards.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Well, no matter what Brits are going to have to live with the consequences of Brexit now, for better or for worse. There're loads of philosophical questions on the purpose of the referendum and voluntary participation, but these are all questions other countries can prepare for before jumping into the void

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Daniel, good point. More striking is the huge disparity in age difference, with those 18 - 44 favoring remain while those older opposing it. Interestingly, as the chart at this link shows, if the younger demographic had voted at the same rate as the older (18-24 participation 36%, 65+ 83%), the result might well have been opposite.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/06/brexit-vote-one-chart

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The clusterduck™ continues: Leavers deftly ducking the shrapnel, ducking the issues, ducking any responsibility whatsoever.

Here, ladies and gentlemen, is post-truth politics bared (warning: not for the faint hearted):

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/747089150550016000

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Northern Ireland post offices are running out of Irish passport application forms:

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/post-office-runs-out-irish-8284576

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The British Pound has depreciated 10% against the USD. UK is 10% more competitive in global pricing. More money will soon be pouring into London properties. All this fear-mongering will lose out to the smart money in due time. London will remain the most competitive and attractive financial centre in Europe. It is international and global compared to Paris and Frankfurt. Work culture in City of London is also 1st rate. With a sense of crisis, more focused diligence will emerge.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

it's possible to imagine a joint defense strategy. But not with one in and the other out.

Scotland could join the EU's Nordic Battle Group, which comprises aligned and non-aligned countries alike, arcing from the Baltics west to Ireland.

And tell Boris where he can stick Trident.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

"they assumed it would never actually pass, so they didn't really think through the consequences of leaving the EU." - comments

You're likely right.

Also, how serious was a vote that only demands debate?

Bit of a panic in a tea pot. Another vote for a vote.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

Well which is it? Be independent or stay in EU? By being independent you get to be both independent and in the EU. By forcing England to stay in the EU you don't get independence.

So the play is to set a date for another Scottish referendum and stop pretending that the current Parliament matters

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

@Frederic Bastiat "....If the vote had gone the other way, would there still be the crying for a do-over? ..."

That depends. If the results where the other way, most probably the people that are asking for a "do-over" wouldn't be the same... so....

And the OUT vote was mainly rural UK... cities like London, Gibraltar and countries like Scotland and N. Irleland voted IN... the size/power of rural England was the main engine for the OUT.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

It's surprising that 16 years into the 21st century Britain still rules Northern Ireland, a vestige of the 19th century colonialism. Give it back to Ireland and the people in Northern Ireland would be able to remain in EU.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Several people here are banging on about "Farange"; er, actually he's been stuck in the Ecuadorian Embassy for the last 5 years. If only "Farage" had been too!

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

i'm surprised the Queen are staying silent on the issue of scotland's independence referendum. her kingdom are splitting yet she does nothing. Scotland politicians should hold an election to judge whether their views are accepted by the people before trying to waste taxpayers money by holding yet another referendum on the same topic if things doesn't go their way.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Sore losers.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

Perhaps Boris or someone could turn things around by striking up trade deals with a lot of non EU countries, such as Japan.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Wakarimaxen.

Most voting results need a majority 60-66%+ to win.

The BRexit was nearly a 50/50 split, so the UK is split down the middle. Some voters as saying they voted Leave because they thought the Exit would never happen.

Either way Democracy is actually majority rule as it is practiced today, no thought, etc is given to the minority voices.

As was mentioned Democracy works in small communities and countries not in large ones like the UK, Germany, France or the USA. It just don't scale well.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

The current Scottish leadership has made it clear that is wants to be independent of the UK, i.e. no longer dominated by English politics and policies, but that it wants to remain under the EU umbrella,

So instead to being dominated by English politics and policies, they can be dominated by EU politics and policies? Scotland is my ancestral homeland, I have a home there, and I am all for an independent Scotland. But being "under the EU umbrella" necessarily requires Scotland to give up a measure of independence for that privilege.

What's more, though Scotland may indeed benefit from being part of the EU, it will also have to suffer the effects of ECB quackery, and carry part of the burden of those other members who consume more from their membership than they contribute to it. If Scotland would like to be one of these latter countries, then by all means join the EU, and milk it for every Euro you can get, but Scotland is less likely to milk than be milked.

The point is: Nothing has been decided and the margin is inconclusive. 700,000 votes aren't a mandate to leave and the process hasn't begun to leave.

How much would it need to be "conclusive"? A majority is a majority, and the UK is a democracy. If the vote had been the other way, and the "leave" camp had lost by 700,000 votes, you would not bring up this issue at all, would you? The decision to leave has been made, and the process was begun before the vote was taken, the vote itself was part of that process.

If you required a super majority to change policy, you would find that policy would never change, as it is extremely rare that two-thirds or three-quarters of politicians or voters ever agree on any matter.

The inherent problems with democracy is that the majority is not always right, and that democracy is extremely easy to corrupt and influence. But the alternatives are weaker still, as all political systems are run by human beings, who are fallible.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

The vote was OUT. If the vote had gone the other way, would there still be the crying for a do-over? Regardless, the EU is gasping for last breaths.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

To quit is a "show" to justify their loss of face in light of the result to those who were and are backing their interests. Labour party representing the unions that backed staying in EU shows that the EU had benefited the unions much more than the independent workers. It is more evidence of international socialism (which unions are an important part) that is playing a major role in EU.

Regardless of whether the workers both unionized and independent will benefit from Brexit, the unions must show that they have tried and oppose the deal enough to take responsibility while inciting emotional support for their cause. The party needs its members to keep its pockets filled with dues and to keep their power over the members even with their loss of face.

At least that is the way I see things.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Those Scotch...

They're always complaining about something...

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

@WilliB *

It is a revolt against the globalists and their cynical agenda. Love it! The only amazing thing is how many gullible people still fall for the globalist snake oil, even here on this board*.

@Texas A&M Aggie*

Sounds like Northern Ireland and Scotland are upset because they haven't received their fair share of Muslim "refugees" yet. They should talk to Sweden and ask them how that's going for th*em.

Telling it like it is!

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

i think scotland and n. ireland may want to hold their horses, it is not certain the EU will even survive in its current form once other countries start breaking off.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

It is a revolt against the globalists and their cynical agenda. Love it!

The only amazing thing is how many gullible people still fall for the globalist snake oil, even here on this board.

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

The unhappiness with the results in both Scotland and Northern Ireland is adding to the sense that the Brexit vote may over time lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom

Sounds like Northern Ireland and Scotland are upset because they haven't received their fair share of Muslim "refugees" yet. They should talk to Sweden and ask them how that's going for them. . . .

-12 ( +1 / -13 )

cleo:

" The Scots have good reason to be miffed. One of the arguments that helped swing the vote in the Scots referendum away from independence was the threat that as an independent nation Scotland would not be part of the EU. "

If that is so, that would be the stupidest argument ever. Since as an independent nation, they could join the Brussels empire anytime. Come again??

-13 ( +1 / -14 )

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