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Investigators struggle to reach MH17 crash site in Ukraine

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May God have mercy on us for what we do to each other, and comfort those who lost loved ones.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

OMG ... I cannot believe this senseless tragedy. Makes me sick to my stomach. RIP all those souls.

I sure hope the Russians are not behind this. I had thought better of them than to target innocent civilians.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Obama has caught the Netanyahu disease is making accusations based on political prejudices without any real evidence.

-11 ( +7 / -18 )

Armed thugs are preventing emergency personnel and investigators from working at the crash site. There have also been stories of looting, while the bodies of the victims lie untended where they fell. When will these loons learn that the patch of dirt they are squabbling over, in fact their whole backward country, is worth nothing compared with just one of the precious lives snuffed out by their wanton criminal action?

The culprit behind this heinous crime should be arrested and locked up in a deep dungeon to ponder his own evil behavior for the rest of his sorry life. He shouldn't be hard to find. His name is Vladimir Putin.

3 ( +12 / -9 )

The probability that the U.S. case is correct is very high, While both the Ukrainians and the Separatists have these missiles, it is the separatists who have been using them to shoot down Ukrainian military transport planes. The separatists do not have such planes and the Russians are not flying such planes over Ukrainian territory, so the Ukrainian military would have no reason to be shooting down high altitude planes. Not only is Russia's probable complicity in this accident through support and weapons training a big concern, but so it the extent to which the Russian state controlled media have whipped up the Russian populace into believing that the separatists must be supported. Russia media right now is filled with propaganda laying blame of the accident on the Ukrainians.

6 ( +11 / -5 )

"Evidence indicates that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile that was launched from an area that is controlled by Russian-backed separatists inside of Ukraine," Obama said.

So show your "evidences", please. Prove that you rule a super-duper nation with a huge fleet of spysats of all kinds, in all orbital planes, including infrared, optical and radar spy devices. Any evidences will be welcomed. File photo of a missile, a satellite photo of a moment of launch, coordinates of launch site, surnames of those "separatists" etc. Enough empty words. There is a saying in English-speaking countries, "Put it up or shut up".

Armed thugs are preventing emergency personnel and investigators from working at the crash site. There have also been stories of looting.

Could you back your statements by valid proofs? Because I saw a footage on YT that "separatists" secure crash site, besides they invited OSCE personnel for attentive and complete investigation.

The culprit behind this heinous crime should be arrested and locked....his name is Vladimir Putin.

Both pathetic and stupid.

-17 ( +5 / -22 )

Very sad and very unsettling. The guilty ones will have no friends or supporters around the world. If it were the rebels, they may as well give up now. If Russia had anything to do with this, increased sanctions. If the Ukraine people done this change the name to Russia.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@Sidekick

As to all your ‘facts’ about the complex Buk systems supposedly in the hands of these ‘rebels’, well wouldn’t it be better, as Putin has clearly said, to give some time for fact-finding before pointing fingers? Better than simply regurgitating the accusations that came immediately from the Russian president upon his learning of the tragic event? Draw conclusions first and find facts later? That’s the proven and oft-repeated style of the Russian authorities. Only one thing is certain about the Buk systems, that they were certainly in the hands of the trigger-happy Ukrainian military, deployed and manned by Russian trained personel capable of actually firing them and hitting a target.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Has all of this loss of life both in this airline incident and in Ukraine itself really been worth having Ukraine join the EU?

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Obama has caught the Netanyahu disease is making accusations based on political prejudices without any real evidence.

A person would have to be a complete fool in thinking that Russia didn't have a hand in this, if NOT directly, indirectly. Those Buk missiles, even if they were in the Hands of the Ukrainians or the Russian separatists, would never have gotten them without Russian involvement. Why were the black boxes returned to Moscow and not Kiev? Why are the Russians NOT allowing anyone to go to the crash site? Come on now....

3 ( +6 / -3 )

What disgusts me is the U.S. trying to point the blame elsewhere when the blood of these tragic deaths is squarely on U.S. hands--particularly the neocons--Nuland, et al.--who have been stoking conflict around the world as part of their dystopian (and deluded) vision that sees the U.S. reign supreme over a world of vassal states.

At every turn, when conflict could have been avoided in Ukraine, the U.S. has thwarted peace. Even recently, the U.S. pushed the sham-elected "King Chocolate" to break a temporary truce and resume the violent suppression of the freedom fighters in the east of the country. Had a peaceful resolution--promoted by Putin--seen fruition, this tragedy would never have happened.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Those Buk missiles, even if they were in the Hands of the Ukrainians or the Russian separatists, would never have gotten them without Russian involvement.

Not so. Ukraine, among others, is definitely in possession of the first and second generation versions of those missiles. The latest news says that the system that did the deed was "almost certainly" a 1970's era version. Those systems are available all over Eastern Europe.

Anyway, I hope you are wrong. I know Putin is a hard man, but I don't believe he would knowingly conspire in the deaths of 300 people who have nothing whatsoever to do with the Ukraine or Russia. Bringing down all this international condemnation on his head ... he'd have to be an idiot.

And whatever you may think of the man, I assume you agree that he isn't an idiot. The "government" in Ukraine on the other hand ....

0 ( +5 / -5 )

I don't think we should start laying the blame anywhere until we get the evidence, both Russia, Ukraine and the Rebels have the same missile system so it very well could be any of them so until we see some convincing evidence, we shouldn't point the finger at anyone.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Because I saw a footage on YT that "separatists" secure crash site, besides they invited OSCE personnel for attentive and complete investigation.

At least this time they aren't prisoners. Half a year ago OSCE sent 8 unarmed investigators to East Ukraine to supervise peace talks and human rights violations. Repels took them hostages and it took several months to get them back.

I don't think the rebels have such kind of intentions this time, but OSCE personel have said themselves that they can't move freely on the crash site.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Russian Foreign affairs minister is on holidays as are his deputies! That's what the Australian Government has been told. Recordings have been released with a Pro-Russian commander boasting of downing what he thought was a Ukrainian plane, The EU investigators were allowed on site for 70 minutes but were told by hooded armed pro-Russian militia to leave. A man called Igor Stelkove has claimed responsibility a leader of pro-Russian militia. Russia claims the aircraft should not have been flying on this route. Apparently it was the air rafts fault?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Sidekick

Could you back your statements by valid proofs? Because I saw a footage on YT that "separatists" secure crash site, besides they invited OSCE personnel for attentive and complete investigation.

ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-19/mh17-investigators-face-tough-task-in-ukraine-plane-inquiry/5608814) "A team of 17 investigators from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe were allowed to examine the wreckage for about 75 minutes, before being forced out by gunmen. "They did not have the freedom of movement that they need to do their job," OSCE chairman Thomas Greminger told Reuters by telephone."

Me: The culprit behind this heinous crime should be arrested and locked....his name is Vladimir Putin. SIdekick: Both pathetic and stupid.

I have to disagree with you there. Putin is not stupid, and nobody with a nuclear arsenal can be described as pathetic. I think he's cunning and and dangerous, but I do respect your opinion.

The culprit behind this heinous crime should be arrested and locked....his name is Vladimir Putin.

Both pathetic and stupid.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Of course a Russian-made missile system shot down this plane, but at this stage that is as far as Putin can be implicated. Meanwhile in Gaza the US funded Israeli army continues to blow the crap out of innocent Palestinians with US-made weaponry. France, UK and other democratic countries continue to sell weaponry to any countries who will pay for it. It's not so very different. Most likely the Russians have provided weaponry for separatists who have shot down a civilian airliner by mistake, which is utterly repellent, but there is no evidence of direct involvement by Russia or Putin. The shooting down of civilian airliners over Ukraine has not been ordered by Russia.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

with the possible technical assistance of Russians.

Well, who else?

Military experts say that it requires extensive training to just turn on those complex BUK systems. Here is the photo of a BUK M1 interface.

https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/490140500729405440/photo/1

The missile was launched from an area that is controlled by Russian-backed separatists but it was not launched by pro-Russian rebels as they could not even turn it on without assistance.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Russia worked pretty hard to sensor and control Pussy Riot. Just imagine the lengths they'll go to to control this horrifying tragedy. Sadly the Russian people seem to be eating up whatever the gov't is feeding them.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

@Hampton

Meanwhile in Gaza the US funded Israeli army continues to blow the crap out of innocent Palestinians with US-made weaponry.

The comparison with Israel/Palestine would only be valid if the Malaysian airliner or any aircraft at 10,000m had first been firing missiles into inhabited areas in Ukraine, as Hamas does regularly into Israeli cities.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

"Local rescue workers told AFP that at least one of the plane’s black boxes had been found, but the whereabouts of the vital data was unknown."

The pro-Russian separists / the Russians are in possession of the data. Remains to be seen if they will cooperate and release this self-incriminating evidence. I doubt it.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@Serrano

The pro-Russian separists / the Russians are in possession of the data. Remains to be seen if they will cooperate and release this self-incriminating evidence. I doubt it.

Well the Russians handed over the black box from the last civilian airliner they shot down, but it took them a decade to do so. I think the removal of a black box from a crash site by anyone other than official investigators constitutes looting.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Anyway, I hope you are wrong. I know Putin is a hard man, but I don't believe he would knowingly conspire in the deaths of 300 people who have nothing whatsoever to do with the Ukraine or Russia.

I don't think anyone is seriously accusing Putin of ordering MH17 shot down. Unless you are in to preposterous conspiracy theories - like Kiev had the plane shot down over rebel territory to make there rebels look bad, or such nonsense - no one had anything to gain from downing a civilian airliner. This was pretty clearly a horrible mistake.

Occam's Razor seems appropriate, here. We know that the plane was shot down over rebel territory. We know that the rebels have access to Buk anti-air systems capable of shooting down planes at that altitude - either supplied by Russia or captured from the incompetent Ukrainian gov't forces. We know that the rebels have been shooting down planes in the area where MH17 went down. We have indications that the rebels accidentally shot down the jet thinking it was a military plane. I don't think its too hard to come to the conclusion that some half-trained AA battery operator on the rebel side screwed up and shot down the civilian plane by mistake.

Putin is not being blamed for shooting down MH17; Putin is being blamed for inciting and supporting the rebels and then letting them get out of control, as well as possibly supplying the tools and training that made this tragedy possible.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Alan, no, not at all. America willingly and freely supplies Israel with weapons knowing that they will end up killing innocent Palestinians in the crossfire. Russia may (or may not) have supplied Ukranian separatists with a Buk system, with a strong possibility such weaponry would target Ukraine. America armed Saddam Hussain, France sold Argentina the weapons they used to shoot British ships in the Falklands. This happens and is part of the world we live in. We don't even know for sure Russia deliberately supplied the weaponry in this case because it is likely the weapon system was old and was widely distributed in Eastern Europe/Ukraine in the 70s and 80s. We wouldn't directly blame Obama for the deaths of Palestinian children and at this stage we shouldn't directly blame Putin for the shooting down of this jet just because it was a Russian weapon, but plenty of people are doing so. I suspect separatists made a huge mistake and they need to be brought to justice and I hope Russia will play a role in this as it is separatists they support who appear to have carried out this act.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

US intelligence analysis of spy satellite images of launch plume indicates missile's origin was in rebel territory.

map (no labels): http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/17/mh17/40fdcb940ddc8102d69d004a58d59cc79cd966be/rebel-activity-ai2html-600.png

article (and map with labels): http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane-ukraine.html?_r=0 U.S. points to Ukraine separatists in downing of Malaysian jet

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Putin didn't order the shoot down. But he is supporting, training, and funding a group of people who are there to create chaos, and if you think you can somehow control people like that then you're just naive. If it wasn't this tragedy, it would be another. Hopefully people will see how these people operate and shut them down.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

A lot of people are in denial about Putin's role.If he wanted to he could get those separatists to disarm,but he's waging a stealth war under the guise of talks and is doing death by a thousand cuts to Ukraine.Sure he didn't tell those nutters to shoot down the plane but he's not complaining about it either. What happened to the elite squads being able to do assassinations like back in the day?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

VLADIMIR PUTIN is an idiot and he has BLOOD ON HIS HANDS!! Even if he did not DIRECTLY shoot down this airplane, if and when the EVIDENCE comes out that this Malaysian CIVILIAN plane was shot down, I want to see what kind of SPIN Moscow, that is what the world wants to see. RIP poor folk on that doomed Malyasian airplanes.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

At this point, no one has yet to claim responsibility for the act. There are several scenarios:

Accidental: No party would be likely to admit the error. Whether it was the Ukrainian Kiev-backed forces, Separatists, or any other, it would only hurt their cause.

Intentional: I doubt any player would knowingly fire on a civilian plane intentionally.

False Flag: All players would benefit by causing discredit to their counterparts.

The question to me is: who would benefit the most from the false flag?

With the US global influence waning politically and economically, it seems to me that the West would benefit far more.

The truth we'll likely never know, but the war of words is well underway.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

"Putin didn't order the shoot down. But he is supporting, training, and funding a group of people who are there to create chaos, and if you think you can somehow control people like that then you're just naive. If it wasn't this tragedy, it would be another. Hopefully people will see how these people operate and shut them down."

But when americans, westeners call them whatever you want, support and arm rebels in Syria, Libya, Kosovo its fine and they are helping them liberate...

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

And so the conflict in Ukraine takes on new heights that stir deeply into international affairs. There is few doubt that the separatists are to blame for this. From a logical PoV it doesn't make any sense that the Ukrainian side wants a passenger plane crashed on their grounds, littered with corpses. Whenever you see the rebels fighting there it becomes evident that they are trigger-happy, soulless creatures to whom a human life doesn't mean much.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Drunken guards, decomposing bodies, and looters, welcome to 2014. Oh and the fact that shooting down a innocent plane. Are these people developed at all? Apes have a better sense of normality.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

There's a couple quick ways to help determine when and where.

When the surface-to-air missile's radar system was turned on to track a target, that radar signal was also detected by the other radars around. So they'd know when a missile system had been turned on.

The radars then track the plane and the missile's flight. By tracking back, they'd know how fast and where the missile was fired.

If the timing of the events matches, they'd know it is a missile system in what place that shot down the plane.

Anyway, I hope you are wrong. I know Putin is a hard man, but I don't believe he would knowingly conspire in the deaths of 300 people who have nothing whatsoever to do with the Ukraine or Russia. Bringing down all this international condemnation on his head ... he'd have to be an idiot.

Providing people the means without proper oversight is liability. Usually a surface-to-air missile operation goes thru several military checks to be sure of the target. Obviously the separatists wouldn't have their own check capability, so if Russia still gave them the means and training to use such a powerful weapon yet not provide the oversight that the separatists wouldn't have, then that's still on Russia's hands. (That's why the US won't provide the Syrian rebels with these powerful weapons because without proper oversight and if they shot down a civilian plane, then it's still on the US for an improper operation.)

3 ( +4 / -1 )

RIP all the innocent victims. Either side could be the culprit, and fair and objective investigation of this tragedy is needed...

CGB Spender:

From a logical PoV it doesn't make any sense that the Ukrainian side wants a passenger plane crashed on their grounds, littered with corpses. Whenever you see the rebels fighting there it becomes evident that they are trigger-happy, soulless creatures to whom a human life doesn't mean much.

According to your logic "it did not make sense" for the Ukrainian side (then - in an opposition) to hire snipers that kill people from both sides @ Kiev's Maidan. And to have a Maidan that is "littered with corpses"... Or Odessa trade union house "littered with corpses" of civilians, right. Or, Maryinka, Slavyansk, Lugansk, etc... "littered with corpses" of civilians (incl. women and children). Yes, all this (and much more), did not make sense to me too, but, sadly, it happens on (almost) everyday basis, "thanks" to the "brave" Ukrainian army...

The "senses" for shooting the plane (sure, if they "prove" the Russians downed it - and Mr.Poroshenko already "proved" it even before the investigation took off) might be - juts to mention few: (i) to have a very needed time-out in a civil war they are losing, both military and morally, (ii) to call for NATO intervention "to protect" against the "Russian invasion", actually - to get military help and crush the resistance of Russian-speaking Ukrainians, or (iii) just to escalate the conflict, to unite the nation against the "enemy", and to put the blame on Russia (as usually) for the imminent economic and social disasters...

And no sense - just incompetence of using Buk-1 SAM - is an option too: as with Siberia Airlines Flight 1812, downed by Ukrainian S-200 over Black sea in 2001 (despite the convincing results of the investigation, Ukraine never acknowledged it was their fault). Reportedly, the last time Ukrainian army test-fired Buk-1 SAM was back in 2001.

As for whether the rebels or somebody else is "trigger-happy" and "soulless", I would suggest you to check the well-documented reasons for thousands of Ukrainian civilian refugees to flee and seek a safety in Russia.

-9 ( +0 / -9 )

http://www.globalresearch.ca/was-ukraines-ministry-of-interior-behind-the-downing-of-malaysian-airlines-mh17/5391909

MH17 was escorted by 2 Kiev fighter jets into the area and addressess the Buk issue (rebels do not have the Buk system). One black box was taken by the "rebels" and given to Russia.

One should be asking what is the purpose of this war and why are they fighting it. Is this all about allowing Eastern Ukraine's right to vote?

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

One should be asking what is the purpose of this war and why are they fighting it. Is this all about allowing Eastern Ukraine's right to vote?

They have right to vote. Ukraine can't join the EU before the elections have been held and the residents of East Ukraine vote yes. There will be international supervisors so it won't be Crimea type of voting.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Putin and his defenders will try and whitewash this crime and blame everyone one else. Why else did he say, and I quote.......

"Without doubt the government of the territory on which it happened bears responsibility for this frightening tragedy," Putin added, according to Reuters.

Translation, if Ukraine would have capitulated to his Soviet empire rebirth dreams/ambitions his forces would never have downed MH17!

Sick, but to the point.....

What nation or what world leader would ever dream of defending Putin and his Imperial ambitions when it comes to Ukraine and this terrorist act by his men?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Reports elsewhere state the at least one black box was recovered, whereabouts unknown, at least 38 bodies have disappeared after being removed from the site and that independent observers were not allowed to inspect the site and were threatened by armed thugs. The site isn't secure and evidence of Russian involvement is being destroyed. How do Putin apologists explain this?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Reports are coming in from Dutch and Australian media showing the pro-Russian terrorists looting the crash site and holding aloft the victims personal items as sick "trophies" - in many cases those of kids. Some of the pro-Russian terrorists are posting their "happy-snaps" on social media. Make no mistake : these criminals are completely amoral, and will absolutely attack again if they are not soon cleansed like vermin should be.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

If it is true that this dirty, no good drunk heartless PRO Russia goons are stealing personal items from the dead children and posting them up on Twitter, Facebook or what ever the heck these fools use, it is even LOWER than what AL Qaeda has ever done, and that is really, really LOW!! RIP poor innocent children and adults on that doomed Malaysian Airlines passenger jet and may the real criminals BURN and BURN in HELL for all of eternity (by the way, that includes your, VLADIMIR PUTIN!!)

1 ( +3 / -2 )

But when americans, westeners call them whatever you want, support and arm rebels in Syria, Libya, Kosovo its fine and they are helping them liberate...

siniestro -- interesting point, and it would have some validity, if you were not mixing apples and oranges. In the conflicts you have mentioned, America has only provided small-arms to the rebels, because they were very concerned about weapons falling into the wrong hnads. Russia on the other hand has supplied takens, heavy artillery, and these very ground-to-air missiles to "the wrong hands" -- and this is the result. Like it or not, America has tried to be deliberate in its decisions, while Putin has been totally reckless in the pursuit of his goals. And that is why the blood of these 298 people is on his hands.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Kiev controlled the flight

Kiev and ONLY Kiev has fihgters over south -east Ukraine

And Kiev send Boeing to this direction over battlefield

with Buks and fighters ready to fire

Kiev is responsible

It's easy

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

badsey3JUL. 19, 2014 - 07:37PM JST http://www.globalresearch.ca/was-ukraines-ministry-of-interior-behind-the-downing-of-malaysian-airlines-mh17/5391909

So, your proof is globalresearch.ca? Really? Is that the best you could come up with. Global research is one step below tabloid bunk. Hell, even a story about batboy has more validity than one that comes out of globalresearch.ca.

Try harder and stop providing biased bunk sites as your proof.

badsey3JUL. 19, 2014 - 07:37PM JST MH17 was escorted by 2 Kiev fighter jets into the area and addressess the Buk issue (rebels do not have the Buk system). One black box was taken by the "rebels" and given to Russia.

Again you are going with complete rubbish globalresearch.ca conspiracy bunk. Stop it already. No other news source would even touch your tale, but you keep trying to pass it off. There were no jets tailing the plane all there were were trigger happy rebels who committed mass murder of innocent civilians.

The blood of those people are on Putins hands. Now your rebels are trying to keep the world out until they can be sure that there is no missile wreckage that can get back to them.

Check your facts, the rebels claimed that they captured some Buk systems a few days back. Also, some reporters said that they had seen these anti aircraft weapons in rebel areas sometime back. Next the Buk surface to air system can shoot down planes at over 50,000 feet. So please stop with the bunk and really stop trying to deflect the truth.

Your rebels murdered innocent civilians and Putin is to blame!

3 ( +3 / -0 )

VLADIMIR PUTIN is an IDIOT and he has blood on his hands !!!...drunken guards, decomposing bodies and looters...Putin and his defenders will try and whitewash this crime...reports are coming in from Dutch and Australian media showing that pro-Russian terrorists looting the crash site...if it is true that this dirty, no goid drunk heartless pro Russia goons are stealing personal items from the dead children and posting them up on Twitter...the blood of those people are on Putins hands

Guys, I can understand your rather primitive hatred aimed to Russia, Russians in general and Putin. Due to lack (or awfully low level) of basic education you have zero knowledges about Putin, Russia and Russians. Still, bother to back your desperate one-dimensional insults to Russians or Putin by valid proofs. Otherwise your statements looks out like chaotic screams of inhabitants of asylum for mentally ill ret@rds. Thank you.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

http://yle.fi/uutiset/daily_finnish_customs_intercepted_ukraine-bound_missile_components/7364587

There seems to be some weapons smuggling through Finland. If it is true, the missiles don't need to be directly from Russian government.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Still, bother to back your desperate one-dimensional insults to Russians or Putin by valid proofs.

Sidekick -- I am not "one-dimensional" in my view of Russia or Rusians, but firmly believe Putin's decisions/policies have directly led to this tragedy. But, all you have to do is visit any reputable web-site -- CNN, NY Times, etc. -- and you will see stories supporting the horrible conditions that surround the crash site, including "decomposing bodies and looting" not to mention the complete loss of integrity of a crime scene. And since Putin is the only person who can control these pro-Russian separartists, the in-human treatment of these remains and their possessions is his responsibility.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

I'm surprised at the amount of people still doubting the involvement of pro-Russian/Russian forces in the downing of this plane. Wonder what their opinions would be, if you were to swap the word "Russian" with "Chinese"?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

I'm suprised at the amount of people still doubting the involvement of pro-Russian / Russian forces in the downing of this plane.

Because sane people prefer to see firm evidences instead of streams of primitive lie from Western mass-media, based on cheap anti-Russian propaganda. You blame Russia? Well, show us valid proofs of Russian involvement. Where the "missile launcher" was located? You say, in Russian territory or on a territory of the Ukraine, controlled by pro-Russian rebells, right? Prove your statements by valid evidences. Strict coordinates of launch site. A type of a missile. Show us those, who launched a missile. Investigate the crash site and show us evidences of what kind of missile was used.

Wonder that their opinions would be, if you were to swap the word "Russian" with "Chinese"?

So, you insist that "Russia is guilty just because it is Russia, the Evil Empire" by your analogy? A mindset of little kid from kindergarden.

...but firmly believe that Putin's decisions/policies have directly led to this tragedy. Well, could you be more specific, please? Which decisions/policies? Since the very beginning of armed conflict between pro-Russian rebels and governmental ukranian forces, Putin had all reasons and rights to send Armed Forces to Eastern Ukraine, to protect Russian-speaking population. Yet he did not. Since spring Ukranians have been bombing and shooting people in Eastern Ukraine, for their choice to be independent of Kiev and rest of the Ukraine. Putin has been calling for peace, urging both sides of a conflict to cease fire. So, which one decision or policy of Putin do you mean? It is not Putin who kills innocent women and children in Eastern Ukraine. It's a "new leadership" of the Ukraine.

...all you have to do is visit any reputable web site --CNN, NY Times etc..and you see stories, supporting the horrible conditions that surround the crash site, including "decomposing bodies and looting"

You see, I know Ukranian and Russian languages. And I am able to watch video footage on YT from crash site everyday. A group of OSCE team walked across a crash site together with gunmen of pro-Russian rebels. People from OSCE team were making photographs here and there. Russian and european reporters asked questions. No one of OSCE people said about "facts of looting". They were busy to work because the whole crash site is situated on almost 30 square kilometres. Looking at those video reports very attentively, I did not see any reporters from CNN or NYTimes. So much for your "reputable sources". They are making up horrible stories everyday, spreading stupid and rather primitive anti-Russian propaganda instead of giving true information to readers and viewers .

And since Putun is the only person who can control these pro-Russian separatists

Actually, pro-Russian separatists have their own leaders. Well-known leaders, by the way. They are giving intervews and often contact to western reporters. The problem is that new Ukranian leadership under US instructions prefer to blame Putin instead of solving all problems together with mentioned leaders of pro-Russian separatists.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

I reckon a lot of these rants babbling on about "proof" when even the three blind mice knew who shot down the plane,is a cry for attention via thumbs down.And when they get their so-called proof,you won't hear from them on this topic again.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQRvINebeok

The reality: Basis for US State Dept info is social media.

You have people that think anyone can operate a BUK system.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Something that takes 5 minutes to set up and 22 seconds from target acquisition to target launch couldn't be that difficult to "operate". Also, some of the news reports say the battery was accompanied by three Russian crew members on its trip back over the border. Pretty sure they could operate it.

badsey3:

You have people that think anyone can operate a BUK system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

The battery requires no more than 5 minutes to set up before it is ready for engagement and can be ready for transit again in 5 minutes. The reaction time of the battery from target tracking to missile launch is around 22 seconds.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

badsey3JUL. 19, 2014 - 07:37PM JST MH17 was escorted by 2 Kiev fighter jets into the area and addressess the Buk issue (rebels do not have the Buk system). One black box was taken by the "rebels" and given to Russia.

Again you are going with complete rubbish globalresearch.ca conspiracy bunk. Stop it already. No other news source would even touch your tale, but you keep trying to pass it off. There were no jets tailing the plane all there were were trigger happy rebels who committed mass murder of innocent civilians.

http://rt.com/news/174448-malaysian-pm-mh17-statement/

Colonel Mohamed Sakri of Malaysian National Security Council said that the two black boxes were "in good condition.”

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

turbotsatJul. 28, 2014 - 07:02AM JST Something that takes 5 minutes to set up and 22 seconds from target acquisition to target launch couldn't be that difficult to "operate". Also, some of the news reports say the battery was accompanied by three Russian crew members on its trip back over the border. Pretty sure they could operate it.

Using facts and reality against wingnut conspiracy theorist will never get you anywhere. The more you prove them to be just wingnuts the more they will continue to try and counter your rational posts with even crazier links.

Also, Putin and company have started their own version of Communist China's 50-cent Army. Their group is known as the 30-ruble Army and they are just as bad as the 50-cent Army.

Their favorite site to use to show off their so-called proof is globalreseach.ca. That site is considered even crazier than Worldnetdaily. So, just be ready for insane rants and baiting insults.

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