UK judge: Putin 'probably approved' killing of ex-KGB agent

Putin is a product of the cold war and in many ways, to me anyways, to still act like it is going on.

still act like it is going on

It is still going on. Ukraine coup, sanctions, economic war, preventing Russia's pipelines from reaching Europe.

He said the report “cannot be accepted by us as a verdict.”

Oh, then. That settles it.

Move along. Move along.

UK judge: Putin 'probably approved' killing of ex-KGB agent

...probably, Mr. Putin sir. Just probably....don't poison me.

Putin is actually Don Corleone in disguise. He makes people offers they can't refuse.

I am sure that if Putin wanted this guy dead, they would have used a different way. Using polonium is just stupid. I'm surprised there was no mention of Berezofsky, I thought his fingerprints were all over this case.

I don't think "probably" is sufficient for any type of verdict.

Innocent until PROVEN guilty, I believe is the standard.

Oh, I forgot the NATO enchroachment into Eastern Europe after the promise not to. But I understand, all these transgressions are not part of the corporate MSM campaign to demonize Putin. Perfect example in the article.

Proof?

What gets me is the hypocrisy of the western media attacking Putin over the allegation he possibly approved this death, without mentioning that Obama meets weekly to approve assassinations of people perceived to be a threat to the USA. How many have died in Obama's drone strikes, including "collateral damage"? Why no talk of sanctions against the USA for its unlawful killings in foreign lands that are creating ever more terrorists, instead of stopping them?

The political establishment club in all its glory, who are we the mere minions to understand its workings. It would have been a hit in a West End theatre or even Broadway. "We think it might"," it could have been", "probably", mighty words we hear repeatedly from those that govern worldwide. They continually insult our intelligence while we in turn question theirs.

Putin "probably" ordered the killing of a Russian national who spied for Britain against his country. Tony Blair FOR SURE ordered the mass bombings of Yugoslavia and Iraq and killed thousands of innocent civilians.

As if people didn't already suspect that. You could see his talons in this a mile away. But does Putin look worried? Of course not. What would you expect from a former Soviet KGB agent?

Slapstick comedy about justice, I thought British judges were more clever. "He said he was certain", "probably with approval from Putin", “strong probability”, bla-bla. OK, how he would like it: "I'm certain that Judge Robert Owen is a hapless clown. There is a strong possibility that he is on a secret mission, probably with approval from Kim Jong Un, to destroy the UK". Real justice is interested in solid facts, not biased opinions.

Hilarious, a judge took 10 years to declare Putin 'probably' guilty.

Does the job pay well? I could pass 'probably' judgements in 10 seconds.

No proof whatsoever. Just "possibly".

Possibly, UK has long way to catch up with Russia in terms of fairness. Possibly, UK is still in the Middle Ages in this regard.

A former KGB agent and current dictator may have ordered a murder? Shocking.

"UK has long way to catch up with Russia in terms of fairness."

I agree with the fatuous 'probably' from this judge but I wasn't aware Russia was noted for its fairness in this regard. Please tell us more. I'm always in favour of learning from other countries in order to improve the one I was born in.

Since there's no doubt KGB/FSB agents murdered Litvinenko, best you could say about Putin is that he isn't in control of his own goons. But it's not very likely the former KGB agent didn't know, is it?

Proof?

Polonium 210 is made in Russia and because it is highly radioactive material, its sale is overseed. Surely you can buy a million dollars worth of polonium to poison someone, but you would need special authorization to bring it to England. And you would also need a special container to carry it without dangering yourselves and frying electronics around you. It shouldn't be hard to track down the real culprit.

I am sure that if Putin wanted this guy dead, they would have used a different way. Using polonium is just stupid.

Russia just don't care. The whole society is rotten. Russia is the country where nothing works, but everything can be fixed up, like they proudly say themselves. It doesn't actually matter if Putin is guilty for this murder or not, because he has already made so many crimes during his career. Of course there are some honest men in Russia who try to change the society, but unfortunately they have also suffered fatal accidents.

Since there's no doubt KGB/FSB agents murdered Litvinenko

There's no doubt? I'm not so sure.

Polonium 210 is made in Russia and because it is highly radioactive material, its sale is overseed....

Yeah, so it would be really stupid to use that to murder one guy. Transport it all the way to the London to slip it in someone's tea. I think someone is trying to frame Russia/Putin or perhaps Litvinenko was transporting it himself (mule?) and something went wrong.

Anyway, this happened 10 years ago, and the inquiry was announced in 2014, around the time of the MH17 incident when the anti-Russia propaganda was at its peak.

It is an inquiry, not a court of law. It is trying to make a case for the extradition of Kovtun and Lugovoi to face charges, knowing full well that this will never happen. But what do you do if someone is killed on your territory, likely by foreign agents? Just let it go? Some action had to be taken. But the outcome is diplomatically sensitive at this point. Britain doesn't really want to make a big fuss about this and resulting action and reaction is theatre on both the British and Russian sides. There will be zero ramifications from this.

But what do you do if someone is killed on your territory, likely by foreign agents? Just let it go?

If he was killed by "friends" of the British government, I would expect them to delay their investigation, accuse others without proof, while preventing the Russians from investigating; which is pretty much what has happened.

Considering they used terms like "there is no doubt" when they accused Saddam of WMDs or Assad of gassing his people, both of which turned out to be lies, one can imagine the significance of using the term "probably".

@CH3CHO "No proof whatsoever. Just "possibly"".

Indeed.

Innocent until proven guilty.

Judge Robert Owen, don't be a cheap clown !

Eh, as good as probable cause as any. This was quite a complex undertaking - not just any but a well-oiled spy agency could try this and who may benefit from it.

A way to be sure is to get everyone to court and see if this probable cause leads to guilt or innocence.

Incidentally, something like this in the UK has been done by the KGB before - the curious case of the poisoned-tip umbrella killing of Bulgarian defector Georgy Markov at a London bus stop during rush hour in broad daylight (for more than 20 years, former KGB officials and once-secret files of the State Security Services put the operation to silence a prominent communist critic be a collaboration of Soviet and Bulgarian secret services as a birthday gift to Bulgarian Communist leader Todor Zhivkov).

"Possibly," "Perhaps," "May have," etc. headline from the MSM.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Oh, I forgot the NATO enchroachment into Eastern Europe after the promise not to. But I understand, all these transgressions are not part of the corporate MSM campaign to demonize Putin. Perfect example in the article.

Eastern European countries ASKED to join NATO... not quite the same as bulldozing their way into those countries like a certain Count Vlad.

As for this verdict... I think the judge was rather afraid to come out and say it was Vlad who ordered the killing. I mean finger pointing at one of the most dangerous and unpredictable leaders on the planet isn't something you do lightly. This way you soften the blow - a bit like whacking someone with a club wrapped in foam.

Eastern European countries ASKED to join NATO... not quite the same as bulldozing their way into those countries like a certain Count Vlad.

There's that mistaken impression our former Soviet friends have that they still own Eastern Europe.

@gcbel

Since there's no doubt KGB/FSB agents murdered Litvinenko

No doubt?? Seriously? Even the judge is mumbling "may be", "probably", but for you there is no doubt? What astuteness! I wish you were in charge of this "investigation", the result would be even more funny.

There's that mistaken impression our former Soviet friends have that they still own Eastern Europe

And there is that mistaken impression some guys in Washington have that they own the world.

@Thunderbird2

not quite the same as bulldozing their way into those countries like a certain Count Vlad

Can you name us the countries Count Vlad bulldozed his way into? I remember Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, but that were not Vlad's exploits...

No doubt?? Seriously? Even the judge is mumbling "may be", "probably",

That's right.

"I am sure that Mr. Lugovoi and Mr. Kovtun placed the polonium-210 in the teapot at the Pine Bar on 1 November 2006,"

Do try to read more carefully.

Too funny how you guys try to parse the judges words. Anyway, I don't believe that you yourself really even doubt they murdered Litvinenko.

And there is that mistaken impression some guys in Washington have that they own the world.

You do know that "but you do it too" doesn't really refute the original statement, right ?

gcbel, There's that mistaken impression our former Soviet friends have that they still own Eastern Europe.--------------------------------

There's that mistaken impression that the USA owns the world.

Too funny how you guys try to parse the judges words.

Too funny how you with that judge try to substitute facts with strong wording - "I believe", "I'm sure", "no doubt".

Personally, I do not believe that the Russians did it. Simple question: why? Why to bother, why to risk an international scandal to kill a traitor who had already done all the damage he could?

You do know that "but you do it too" doesn't really refute the original statement

Not exactly. But now I do know that not only Washington policymakers, but also some JT posters believe that they own the world.

Too funny how you with that judge try to substitute facts with strong wording -

Are you confused by the wording "I'm sure"? Not sure you grasp the concept of conclusions drawn from facts - there's nothing odd or strange about some of the conclusions being couched as probable or certainty.

Personally, I do not believe that the Russians did it.

So, you say.

Simple question: why? Why to bother, why to risk an international scandal to kill a traitor who had already done all the damage he could?

"traitor"eh? like Nemtsov... really? that's what you come up with as objections? Recklessness, revenge, hubris, the long arm of the FSB, strong message to other would be "traitors", thought they could get away with it (And actually they largely have)... You see those are lightweight objections that are easily rebutted. And then there are the facts.

Not exactly.

No, exactly so.

But now I do know that not only Washington policymakers, but also some JT posters believe that they own the world.

Interesting. Maybe even true. But, again, irrelevant to the point. If that's how you manage simple logic arguments no wonder, the judge's finding befuddle you.

Are you confused by the wording "I'm sure"?

No, I'm confused by the judge's (and your) preference for words and not facts. He should have given facts / proof and let people come to their conclusions, otherwise it is just empty talk.

So, you say.

is the best reply to the judge's (and your) "I'm sure" and other blah-blah

"traitor"eh?

You have another definition of an officer of a security agency who tells everything he knew to another country? Then Ames and Hanssen are not traitors, right?

revenge, hubris, the long arm of the FSB, strong message

Nonsense. Even in the height of the Cold War KGB did not kill its defectors on US / UK soil, and CIA / MI-6 did not kill their defectors on USSR soil. And why to kill Litvinenko in UK while FSB could have killed him in Moscow? He was an open FSB critic well before he flew to London. Obviously it is difficult for you "to manage simple logic arguments".

irrelevant to the point

It was a direct answer to your idea. If you consider your ideas irrelevant, then it's fine with me.

No, I'm confused by the judge's (and your) preference for words and not facts.

You're easily confused it would seem. Facts like the fact the 2 assassins left a "massive trail of radiation in multiple locations across London"? Give it up...

Traitor... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko

So, you say. Is my response to your claim "Personally, I do not believe that the Russians did it. "

Nonsense. Even in the height of the Cold War KGB did not kill its defectors on US / UK soil,

Pish-posh. For one, you're implying that the rules of the Cold War USSR / USA carried over to present day Russia. There's no reason to believe that for one. Two, these rules applied to assassinating each other' spies, nationals of the other side. The KGB / NKVD, like any of the other Soviet bloc intelligence agencies, most certainly would have murdered Russian "traitors" AND their families (which they did) even on US soil if they could have. Defectors, not necessarily. According to you Litvinenko was more of a traitor than simply a defector.

And, finally doesn't mean Putin wouldn't do it.

And why to kill Litvinenko in UK while FSB could have killed him in Moscow? He was an open FSB critic well before he flew to London.

That's an inane argument. They wouldn't have done it later because they didn't choose to do it earlier? Seriously? Anyway, that's easy to rebut. One, he fled in 2000. Two, he really became a liability after writing the 2 books:

During his time in London, Litvinenko wrote two books, Blowing Up Russia: Terror from Within and Lubyanka Criminal Group, wherein he accused the Russian secret services of staging the Russian apartment bombings and other terrorism acts in an effort to bring Vladimir Putin to power. He also accused Putin of ordering the murder in October 2006 of the Russian journalist Anna Politkovskaya.

Obviously it is difficult for you "to manage simple logic arguments".

You'd first have to make one. Haven't read one from you yet. Ample evidence you have trouble processing them though.

It was a direct answer to your idea.

No, it wasn't even an indirect answer. You do not understand that "you do it too" doesn't obviate the initial statement. Is it really that difficult for you?

If you consider your ideas irrelevant, then it's fine with me.

I consider your response irrelevant to the statement. "There's that mistaken impression our former Soviet friends have that they still own Eastern Europe" relates to the whining a la "NATO enchroachment into Eastern Europe after the promise not to."

The statement "I do know that not only Washington policymakers, but also some JT posters believe that they own the world." is interesting, made true, but is just "you too" so, not a rebuttal.

gcbelJAN. 22, 2016 - 03:18PM JST

Since there's no doubt KGB/FSB agents murdered Litvinenko,

The news says,

He(Judge Robert Owen) said there was a “strong probability” that Russia’s FSB, the successor to the Soviet Union’s KGB spy agency, directed the killing

There is no doubt, without any piece of evidence, that, probably, KGB killed Litvinenko. Funny conclusion.