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Ukraine delays heavy weapons pullback, blaming rebel attacks

17 Comments
By JIM HEINTZ

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From what it sounds like there was battle on the way to Mariupol that the rebels were claiming was between government forces. Given such denials on their part, I think it is obvious the rebels are up to no good.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

It's about time to stop calling them the "rebels". Putin owns this conflict and land grab.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Still no reason not to use 3rd-party UN peacekeepers; can't trust either side to cease fire.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

It's about time to stop calling them the "rebels".

The locals seem quite happy to have them around. The separatists seem to have no problem holding territory nor do they seem to have an counter insurrection issues.

Meanwhile Kiev can't even muster a half decent army out of a country of 42 million because of mass desertion, insubordination and draft dodging.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

"The separatists seem to have no problem holding territory"

Indeed, the Russian army are doing a fine job.

"Meanwhile Kiev can't even muster a half decent army"

I'm impressed how local farmers who make up the "rebels" turned their 1950's machinery into state of the art weaponry. MacGyver has been officially buried. Soviet ingenuity over the capitalist pigs!

Seriously, you've lost flair on this conflict. Putin shouldn't be paying for second rate 'botting. Your one sided reporting from that other reality of the Syrian conflict had far more game.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Seriously, you've lost flair on this conflict. Putin shouldn't be paying for second rate 'botting. Your one sided reporting from that other reality of the Syrian conflict had far more game.

Really, you liked my Syria material? Thanks.

Putinbots were spot on when they said the Syrian rebels were all jihadists. Look at the Free Syrian army now, it's morphed into ISIS.

The Kiev government is a Neo-Nazi junta. The Western media isn't telling you that but you'll find out in a few years how bad they really are.

Ha, maybe in a few years President Clinton will have to order airstrikes on Ukraine to try to contain the Neo-Nazi Azov Battalion.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

The Kiev government is a Neo-Nazi junta.

Pylayushchiy Kust - Vy yevrey , chto vy zhivete i posle v takom smertel'nom uzhase bandy Azovskogo ? Yest' 5 raza bol'she chlenov v bandy Nochnyye volki v Rossii. Vy nikogda ne upominal o nikh srazu, no trupy svoikh chlenov obnaruzhivayutsya v Donbasse regulyarno .

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

" Look at the Free Syrian army now, it's morphed into ISIS."

Ahh, now that's the kind of twisted revisionism I'm talking about. Boom. That flair for fantasy perhaps rekindled (although I note your memory fails you on your Blackwater/CIA conspiracy) But I digress, please try to keep on the topic. That, I appreciate, is extremely hard.

Even the Russians are having a hard time keeping a straight face Denying it's their army and their latest weapons solely with the staggering genius of simply removing the stickers on the tanks and labels from uniforms.

May I ask what the Putinbots official line is on how and where the "rebels" are getting the much superior, state of the art weaponry? I can't have heard it yet and I do love a yarn. Surely you're not expecting us to believe "rebel" peasants somehow turned their dilapidated soviet-era tractors and combines into complex war machines overnight? I'm sure we'll all agree no one could do that except maybe BA Baracus armed with a grinder and a MIG welder but I guess when you are telling the story anything's possible....

0 ( +3 / -3 )

where the "rebels" are getting the much superior, state of the art weaponry?

Can Kievbots give us insights on what "state of the art" weaponry rebels have? I'm very interested in this conflict, read a lot about it and watch a lot video material from the battlefield, but I'v seen no high-tech weaponry. T-64 and T-72 tanks of Soviet design, BMP-1, BMP-2s, BTR-80s, the same vintage, Artillery - the same. BM-21 Grad, Uragan MLRSs - also from Soviet times, for both sides. New weaponry (on the regime side) - only some "Humvees" (not many), and the newest arrival - British "Saxon" AFVs.

The main supplier of weaponry to rebels is the regime ragtag army - low morale, many defeats. Check Debaltsevo on Youtube, a lot of footage with captured weaponry. And before Debaltsevo there were two major defeats in summer, three or four army brigades decimated, with many tropheys captured. Plus many weapons captured from the very beginning of the conflict at local (Donetsk-Lugansk) depots and storages. Yes, rebels have plenty of weaponry, but it's usual low-tech from the Soviet era. If (I stress, IF) regular Russian Army is there, it will be in Kiev in several days.

And are you really surpised at the rebels victory, or you just a troll? The reason for rebel victories is simple: they fought for their land, for their freedom. Putin just can not force them to fight, they want their homes not to be destroyed by the regime artillery or their relatives be killed. And they can defend themselves - many of them served in the army as conscripts, and now when the Kiev regime forces also are predominantly mobilized conscripts, the level of proficiency of both sides is roughly equal. Or may be J.Psaki told you another story? lol

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

"Can Kievbots give us insights on what "state of the art" weaponry rebels have?"

It's common knowledge that Russia is not only supplying and testing its' new upgraded weapons systems, drones and electronic jamming systems in eastern Ukraine, but that GRU Spetsnaz (you know, the "little green men" who went in to seize Crimea so discretely without military insignias!!) and the elite airborne VDV troops have been training the rebels how to use these shiny new weapons and providing them with satellite imagery to target the Ukrainian positions. For one claiming to follow the conflict day and night you are woefully ill-informed:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31146595

"And are you really surprised at the rebels victory, or you just a troll? The reason for rebel victories is simple: they fought for their land, for their freedom"

Wow, somehow I can hear the Russian national anthem in the background. Nasdrovia comrade, from here in Reality! My friend, your "rebels" are winning because Russia has thrown its' military might behind them, has armed and trained them. They are being used as proxies to grab territory for mother Russia and to install local gangsters loyal to Putin's regime. And to test how far the sociopathic dictator can go before he provokes a NATO reaction. Hence all those rickety 1950's strategic bombers held together with twine and duct tape testing Western air defences which is rather amusing.

Putin can only keep doubling the inner circles heh, (and obviously his 'bots) pay for so long to keep 'em loyal. The money is running out as sanctions bite as so is time for Putin.

Oh and there one major thorn in ever single part of your Putin apology; the small annoyance of Russia having signed an international treaty vowing to respect Ukraine's borders. But that's mere trivia of course when you're dealing with gangsters prepared to use brutal force to take what isn't theirs.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

@BaltanSeijin84

You do know that Russians use a Cyrillic alphabet and not a Roman one right?

where the "rebels" are getting the much superior, state of the art weaponry?

Captured from the Ukrainian army. Although to be fair, a lot of it was gifted by officers in the Ukrainian army that are not loyal to the current Kiev regime.

Oh and there one major thorn in ever single part of your Putin apology; the small annoyance of Russia having signed an international treaty vowing to respect Ukraine's borders

Treaties became null and void the moment that the Ukrainian government collapsed and a junta of maiden protestors illegally declared themselves the new government.

It's legally defined in the UN charter as Extraordinary Circumstances, and it gives one country the right to intervene in another under such conditions.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

Treaties became null and void the moment that the Ukrainian government collapsed and a junta of maiden protestors illegally declared themselves the new government.

No. It didn't.

It's legally defined in the UN charter as Extraordinary Circumstances, and it gives one country the right to intervene in another under such conditions.

Really? where exactly in the UN Charter does it say that?

2 ( +4 / -2 )

your "rebels" are winning because Russia has thrown its' military might behind them, has armed and trained them

As history demonstrated, no amount of weaponry helps if soldiers don't want to fight. You forgot summer-2014, when whole divisions of Iraqi army simply disappeared (and all military might of US, all modern weapons and all the training were with them). You just don't want to admit that simple people, practically civilians, can fight and win when they defend their land, their homes and families. Well, my friend, you have the right to be stubborn, enjoy it.

all those rickety 1950's strategic bombers held together with twine and duct tape

It's off topic, but I'm really curious. If these bombers are so rickety (just like B-52s still in use, but never mind), why so much hysteria in UK? British MOD was rather panicky. Why? Relax, guys, this aircraft are old, "twine and tape"!

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Madverts It's about time to stop calling them the "rebels". Putin owns this conflict and land grab.

This was problem from the start of this conflict. The main problem. Most western leaders looks at Ukraine as at a small third world country with very simple political system. Peace of land and chief of tribe in feathers .

So you change the chief offer a lot of glass necklaces&rum and you take the land.

It worked with Ukrainian population but not with Russian population of Novorossiya.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Asakaze,

The Russian army and Russian supplied start of the art weaponry that is the real force behind the "rebels" victory in carving out bits of Ukraine for Putin, sorry, ahem, for themselves. I note with some pleasure that you fail to even acknowledge that your earlier claims are utter Denial. But that figures.

As history demonstrated, no amount of weaponry helps if soldiers don't want to fight.

I think it's fair to say that a heavily armed bully 50 times the size of the victim is the reason that people don't want to fight. And obviously the Ukranians know they have mostly Soviet era poop and the "rebels" have those state of the art goodies you're in Denial of. I'm guessing psychologically that's a bummer for the Ukrainian army.

You forgot summer-2014, when whole divisions of Iraqi army simply disappeared (and all military might of US, all modern weapons and all the training were with them).

The two conflicts have absolutely nothing in common. Nothing. And I find it disturbing to say the least that you feel you are the ISIL of the conflict. Your comparison I'll reiterate. Despite my disgust at the Russian land-grab even I wouldn't compare you with that particular slime, although I actually agree it's a similar illegality of expansionist design.

You just don't want to admit that simple people, practically civilians, can fight and win when they defend their land, their homes and families. Well, my friend, you have the right to be stubborn, enjoy it.

I've already debunked this fallacy. Putin couldn't give a sh!t about the peasants he's using as a proxy along with his owned armed forces minus insignia's - he needs a road to his war loot, Crimea.

If these bombers are so rickety (just like B-52s still in use, but never mind), why so much hysteria in UK? British MOD was rather panicky. Why? Relax, guys, this aircraft are old, "twine and tape"!

It's shameful, provocative, cold war era muscle flexing. But the Russian bear is an anorexic version of its' former Soviet self other than in the deluded head of Putin and deluded patriotic disciples. Here, you're simply being obtuse. Ever heard of the B2 Spirit? Sorry, my dad's car is waaaay better than yours.

Get over it.

**

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Madverts

You have nice style of writing, but very unpleasant habit of, hmm, juggling with facts. Just several examples.

It's common knowledge that Russia is not only supplying

Sure, I can reply with something like "it's common knowledge that Western mercenaries and advisers fight at Donbass", but I'll just say that a couple of weeks ago Ukrainian General Staff officially admitted that they had no proof of Russian units fighting at Donbass. OSCE observers on the border also said that they saw no cross-border movements of military hardware.

heavily armed bully 50 times the size of the victim is the reason that people don't want to fight

Ever heard about the Vietnam War? Check the sizes of North Vietnam and US.

The reason of debacles of Ukrainian forces is just the same as for South Vietnamese army: the Kiev regime is rotten, corrupt, has absolutely no support at Donetsk, despised my most of the other population. The result will be the same as for the Saigon regime.

I find it disturbing to say the least that you feel you are the ISIL of the conflict

Bravo! Masterpice of distortion! First, I live in Japan and I'm not a part of the Donbass (or Middle East) conflict. Second - why on Earth you decided that "I feel ISIS"?? I made a historic comparison. Please don't distort so openly, it's so obvious.

shameful, provocative, cold war era muscle flexing

In 2014 several times US Navy ships entered the Black Sea and sailed along the Russian territorial waters. Why a flight of bombers (several hours) is "provocation", but sailing of fully-armed warships (several days, may be weeks) is not?

I have much more to add, but no time, I have a job to do. And, speaking frankly, from the stuff you wrote I see it's no point. But I'll say, you have nice style in writing! Never considered a job as a State Department press secretary? Psaki is pregnant, may be you should apply.

Good luck!

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Thanks, your written English is excellent I'm presuming you're Russian. I'm bilingual too and I realise that can be a disadvantage in such a debate.

However, no, I'm not "juggling facts". I'm hitting you with facts on this conflict that earlier you claimed were untrue - and when presented with evidence to the contrary you're doing the time honoured tradition of bringing more and more topics to the table, most of them totally irrelevant to the discussion in the hope this tactic might somehow obfuscate the debate.

It won't.

The thing is, you don't have a leg to stand on. Russia has violated international law. Putin is behaving like a gangster. No different to Adolf Hitler and the gangsters of the Third Reich. That's a comparison that must hurt any reasonable peace-loving human being. He has seized Crimea illegally. He has encouraged, armed and trained the Russian speakers of the east of Ukraine to achieve a land corridor to the peninsula he seized. He's even using the Russian army itself, just using plain brown wrappers. It's abhorrent behaviour that no respectable country would engage in.

Obviously the West has made errors in the conflict and are not above blame for certain actions that have led to Putin's new style of warfare and expansionism. But as far lost as you and a great majority of Russians are in the patriotic fervour whipped up by Putin, again almost identical to the Nazi's of the 1930's, then there is no place yet to discuss this honestly.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

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