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Ukraine, rebels argue over Malaysia Airlines wreckage site

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Germany called it Moscow’s last chance to cooperate.

Maybe if Merkel had not been so soft, and supported Obama in his attempts to put some teeth into the sanctions, this tragedy could have been avoided. Funny how she has failed to learn the lesson related to her own country's history -- it was Neville Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler that allowed him to run rough-shod over Europe. And here she is doing the same thing with Putin.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

Supporting Obama? Why would she do that? She has many reasons NOT to trust this joker and Obama is the most powerful man in the world (supposedly) and yet, he acts and governs like THE weakest and most incompetent. Once again, he should take the lead on this stand up and demand and even threaten Putin to give the Black boxes and to take a very stern and harsh tone to let Putin know, he finally crossed the line and there will be heavy consequences.

So far, nothing as usual. And the real sad thing is, Putin will get away with this most likely.

-13 ( +3 / -16 )

Its still unclear who shot down that Plane. Of course Russia plays a huge part in that incident too. I think the main Problem is that the European Union rely to much on the United States. They should grow up and act as Adults when it comes to Russia.Nowadays many Countries in Europe try to reduce their rely of Russian gas. But this takes time. So its a whole different Situation for Europe as it is for the United States. Because if the Russians stop their supply of gas and oil, it would cause a lot of problems for many Countries in Europe. The United States are not in that Situation.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

contrary to earlier statements by the rebels, Alexander Borodai said they had not found the black box flight recorders.

Black boxes should be in safe hands by now, somewhere in Russia. The world's best professionals (yes, they are the best) should be checking if there is anything that needs to be doctored. It may take years until they hand it back to ICAO, just like they did in Korean Air Lines Flight 007 case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Sad. I am wondering how the Dutch will handle this in terms of relations with Russia or Ukraine...

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I think jumping to conclusions even before the start of investigation is pointless.

One thing that caused my concern regarding the completeness of presented information is that Chaff is clearly seen in the crash cite. Chaff is deployed by military planes as a countermeasure against radar-guided missiles - it deceives the radars by causing multiple reflections. Does it suggest a possibility of direct involvement of (Ukrainian) fighter jet(s) in the tragedy? BTW, according to reports, rebels don't have any operational radar-guided SAM (like Buk, Tor, S-200, S-300).

Multiple strips of Chaff are seen in 45s~53s into this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjoUzI_cpyY

Another opinion was also expressed:

@dnrpress: self-propelled Buk surface-to-air missiles systems have been seized by the DNR from (Ukrainian) surface-to-air missile regiment A1402," the Twitter post said.

I am sceptical about this - probably, the post was a part of the propaganda war. "To seize" and "to use" (especially, with the radar, needed to detect B777 early, to track it and to guide the missile up to its altitude and distance from launch site) are completely different things. Buk has several layers of protection - strictly controlled physical keys, crypto-keys, etc. that should be obtained directly from Ukrainian army (very unlikely). Ukrainian prosecutor general V.Yarema said immediately after the crash that rebels don't have operational Buk seized from Ukrainian army.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Once again, he should take the lead on this stand up and demand and even threaten Putin to give the Black boxes and to take a very stern and harsh tone to let Putin know, he finally crossed the line and there will be heavy consequences.

Bass -- nonsense, let's deal with reality here. Unlike your hero, George W., Obama has tried to always follow the prudent method of dealing with this kind of crisis, like George H.W. did, and get a consensus, and not be the "cowboy" -- we all saw how well that worked in Iraq. The ONLY WAY to put truly crippling sanctions in place against Putin is to get Europe on board, since the U.S. has much less economic dependence on Russia. But, despite that, he has acted to lead that process at every stage -- or did you not read that he was on the phone with Putin telling him about the latest U.S. sanctions when the plane was sho down? (Maybe FOX News did not mention that.) Plus, no only really knows where the black boxes are, and, if Russia does have them, it is the Ukraine and Malaysia that have the principal roles in the investigation, so they have the standing to demand them back, or the U.N. where the U.S. is likely to address the issue.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Lots of lingering questions here.

Even NHK is reporting that the purported Ukrainian video of the BUK system in Eastern Ukraine is questionable because the billboard in the background is from a totally different area.

The chaff at the crash site raises interesting questions as well.

I also kinda doubt that some drunken Russian goons could operate such a complex multilayered systems as the BUK and manage to hit a plane that's flying at 500 mph 7 miles above their heads.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Buk has several layers of protection - strictly controlled physical keys, crypto-keys, etc. that should be obtained directly from Ukrainian army (very unlikely).

I also kinda doubt that some drunken Russian goons could operate such a complex multilayered systems as the BUK and manage to hit a plane that's flying at 500 mph 7 miles above their heads.

Russian mercenaries operating a BUK obtained from Russia would have both the keys and the skills.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The crash site is being compromised. A site where innocent civilians found death due to an act of clear terrorism, stupid mistake or not. The site is being looted and disturbed. International teams are barred from carrying out an investigation, but locals stroll around freely and are looking for souvenirs. Barred by half witted, drunk idiots who are reveling in their misplaced corrupt power given to them with guns against those unarmed by Russia. Bodies are left to rot, desecrated. Are the bulldozers going to move in after all valuables have been removed "to prevent the outbreak of disease?" If the EU are serious about an ultimatum to Putin, the only man who can force the terrorists to open the site and whose unwillingness to step in may cost him dearly, they should really make a stand and decide now terrorism on their borders has to stop, but realize the economy can not be a trump card at this time.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

This report is apparently dated as the Ukrainian government and the rebels seem to be talking about the deteriorating condition of the crash site. So reports USA Today: "Ukraine, rebels agree on security zone at crash site." The link: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/19/malaysian-airlines-mh17-crash/12877241/

The problem is that as painful as this all is, the bodies are starting to decompose in the mid-summer heat. People have to work in the sunflower fields and other places in the crash site area.

Another news item from Reuters: "Rebel leader [Aleksander Borodai, prime minister of the breakaway Donetsk People's Republic] asks Russia for help with deteriorating Ukraine crash site." The article states, " A rebel leader appealed to Russia on Saturday for help with worsening conditions at the crash site of a Malaysian airliner, accusing the Ukrainian government of preventing experts from arriving and allowing bodies to rot." Bordai notes that a grandmother complained that a dead body fell on her bed. It is still there. She wants the dead body removed. There is no designated people to remove it. It is still there. Link: http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-leader-says-not-touched-crash-concerned-bodies-111411627.html

What happened and is happening remains sketchy. Don't trust official pronouncements and accusations and counter accusations. If the grandmother story is true, I hope she can get her bed back quickly.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

European powers seemed to swing behind Washington’s belief Russia’s separatist allies were to blame. That might speed new trade sanctions on Moscow, without waiting for definitive proof.

That's why !

The day BEFORE crash EU refused to speed new sanctions....

The day BEFORE crash rebels severely beat government forces and surrounded them....

You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs..

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

I still can't get over the fact that a rebel leader announced that they had just shot down a plane.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Did the Ukrainian prime minister really say/mean 'drunken gorillas' or 'drunken guerrillas' or are they basically the same thing?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Super Lib, that has yet to be verified. It might be a fraud, like the fake Rebel broadside that ordered all the Jews in the rebel held territories to register. Has anyone seen this alleged tape on You Tube lately? You would think it would be all over the place.

I believe there is one thing we can be 99% sure of. No one, whoever it was, willfully wanted to shoot down a passenger jet (if in fact to was shoot down a passenger jetliner. If it turns out that the ukrainian military did it will be called a tragic error and if the rebels indeed did shoot it down then it will be called a willful act of terrorism.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Oh I agree that nothing was intentional. But to think that a well trained military would fire upon a plane at that height heading over it's borders from West to East to battle a group of thugs with no planes is a bit of a stretch.

Personally, I think you're better off saying it was an intentional act by the Ukrainian government to blame the rebels. And, of course, like all conspiracy theories, you can point to a simple piece of evidence and make us believe that people smart enough to pull this off didn't count on you finding the obvious.

Start with the usual...."Who benefits?" That's the first step in taking you on the path of picking and choosing evidence. The rest of the world will ignore you which will just help prove that you are right.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

SuperLib:

I still can't get over the fact that a rebel leader announced that they had just shot down a plane.

Most likely, that was about another downed plane, on another day. Also, AN-26 military transport plane was shoot down at about the same time, near Davido-Nikolsk, about 100km north-east of the crash site of MH17. The audio recording seems to be manipulated, and there is no evidence regarding the date or time of recording. Screenshots of the property page, done by users who downloaded and played the file, suggest the creation time (timstamp) is two days before the MH17 crash. The style, layout, and quality is quite similar to another fake video from June 5. Here is the story:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/ukraine-releases-youtube-clip-proving-rebels-shot-down-malaysian-flight-mh-17

And I am puzzled by the fact that MH17 was deviated about 400km to the north from its usual path - directly over the war zone...

I would prefer to trust the results of an independent, international investigation.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

All of you trying to insist that the Putin-backed rebels did not shoot down this plane could maybe explain why the rebels are desperately trying to prevent international investigators from reaching the scene (at least until they have removed all the incriminating evidence)? Even the crook Putin doesn't deny that the rebels shot down the plane.

Putin is responsible and sanctions must be imposed on Russia without delay.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

FordBronco:

Except for the doctored audio and the fake video, what evidence has Ukraine presented exactly?

Good question. They have presented no actual evidence to support their claim. However, the crash happened over their territory, plane was guided by their ground controler into war zone, they have records of all radar data, ground controller converstions, military diaries, etc. No single word about this - only fake audio and video instead.

This implies that the real evidence that they must have is against them, and therefore - not disclosed. It is easy to show the time and location of the plane when it was hit, exact location of their Buk batteries north-west of Donezk at that time, the distance between them and the plane when it was hit, was their Buk radar active during the flight of MH17, was the course of missile from the rear hemisphere (as if launched from Ukrainian army) or front hemisphere (as if launched by rebels), where the Chaffs at the crash site came from, etc...

I really hope that Russia has some objective evidence from their intelligence, and will disclose it when needed.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

titiano: They have presented no actual evidence to support their claim.

Well you seem to be pretty comfortable with "most likely, seems to be, suggest, similar, implies...."

I would prefer to trust the results of an independent, international investigation.

Starting off with comments about "an independent, international investigation" is a good start to make people believe you have a clean slate, but the key will be to start discrediting the investigation at just the right moment. Too soon means you never gave it a real chance, too late means the investigation will take hold. And you should definitely separate your conspiracy theories from your investigation comments. Start to transition from the former to the latter over the next few days/weeks.

Is anyone looking into the flight list? You might be able to link a name and link that to the government in Kiev. You could even present a false claim to buy some time while you move into your next phase.

I really hope that Russia has some objective evidence from their intelligence

Yeah, you need to drop comments like this. It makes you look like you're just trying too hard. Stick to facts in a vacuum, ask a lot of questions that don't have answers, and bring up random points that no one would take hours to independently verify. In the end, you don't need to convince people that Russia is innocent, you just have to deflect blame.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

And the Putin defenders come out in droves while the corpses of his men's victims lay on the field.

Putin and his men won't even allow the inspectors time to figure out where the bodies lay. Putin made a huge mistake this time, hope he won't be able to buy his way out. Too many innocent people have suffered because of his actions. I hope that time has come for him to pay the piper.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

And I am puzzled by the fact that MH17 was deviated about 400km to the north from its usual path - directly over the war zone...

It requested from European Air Traffic Control permission to avoid thunderstorms in the south. At any rate, either route would have taken them over the "war zone."

I agree, Super lib - it is amazing how some are so intent on proving conspiracy theories that they concoct the wildest stories while ignoring the most likely evidence.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

And find it idiotic that people are jumping to conclusion with so scant evidence.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

It requested from European Air Traffic Control permission to avoid thunderstorms in the south. At any rate, either route would have taken them over the "war zone."

"In response to claims that weather led to MH17 changing its flight plan, Malaysia Airlines director of operations Izham Ismail said that it had no reports from the pilot to suggest that this was the case."

(source: Guardian).

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Titiano, same article:

Nico Voorbach, a pilot who flew the same journey earlier this summer for KLM, and who is president of the European Cockpit Association, said poor weather might have been the reason why flight MH17 found itself in the sights of a surface-to-air missile launcher. Voorbach said: "I heard that they were diverting from some showers. I think there were thunderclouds. You would ask air traffic control to divert left or right, and they would give you the permission."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/19/mh17-changing-course-storms-pilot

Eventually this will be clarified - but it is fundamentally not important; as mentioned, even the programmed route would have taken the flight over rebel-held areas.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/is-this-sa-11-buk-sam-missing-2-missiles-the-one-that-1607521886

Is This SA-11 'Buk" SAM Missing 2 Missiles The One That Shot Down MH17?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Moscow denies involvement and has pointed a finger at Kiev’s military."

I can't wait to see what kind of evidence against Kiev's military Putin comes up with.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

This is getting dirtier and dirtier almost hourly. Compromised crash site, confiscated human remains by armed rebels, stolen black boxes....

Meanwhile 298 families and the majority of the Netherlands population must be infuriated with the aftermath thus far. This was an evil, malicious, cowardly act. The truth will come out. Why they just don't fees up now baffles me. The post murder handling is appalling and more infuriating!

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@jersey

nonsense, let's deal with reality here. Unlike your hero, George W., Obama has tried to always follow the prudent method of dealing with this kind of crisis, like George H.W. did, and get a consensus, and not be the "cowboy"

That cowboy style kept us safe, whether you agree with it or not. This was NOT a popularity test. Unlike Obama that dithers here and there there and is usually incognito when it comes to anything that deals with making critical decisions.

we all saw how well that worked in Iraq.

But the surge worked, even Al Qaeda admitted being defeated and underestimating the surge.

The ONLY WAY to put truly crippling sanctions in place against Putin is to get Europe on board, since the U.S. has much less economic dependence on Russia.

Europe will never go along with it, NOT only do most of them get their gas from Russia, they don't want to be invaded by Russia, they can't count on his majesty to protect them so they're NOT going to do it.

But, despite that, he has acted to lead that process at every stage -- or did you not read that he was on the phone with Putin telling him about the latest U.S. sanctions when the plane was sho down?

You probably don't know this or NOT aware, but Putin could give a flying fig for what Obama thinks! He HAS the black boxes and you think because the anointed one whines, Putin will just hand the Black Boxes over? You have another think coming.

(Maybe FOX News did not mention that.) Plus, no only really knows where the black boxes are, and, if Russia does have them, it is the Ukraine and Malaysia that have the principal roles in the investigation, so they have the standing to demand them back, or the U.N. where the U.S. is likely to address the issue.

Then what you really want to say is, it's over. If you think Russia didn't tamper with the Black Boxes I have a boat to sell you. Of course they did. They wouldn't let the NTSB anywhere near the plane! Russia will do whatever they can to alter or cut any evidence or any involvement that doesn't implicate them.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

The "black boxes" really don't matter; whatever information that they contain might give glimpses to the last moments of the flight but nothing regarding who launched the missile.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

The "black boxes" really don't matter; whatever information that they contain might give glimpses to the last moments of the flight but nothing regarding who launched the missile.

Not if there was an incriminating conversation between the flight tower and the plane. The Ukrainian security services has confiscation the tower recordings. Why? Nobody knows yet.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Gee, Fizz bit, you'd figure that, in that case, the black box contents would be released expeditiously! We'll see if that happens.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Come on Merkel, are you more interested in staying in power, have you forgotten how W-Germany absorbed the economic hardships of the re-unification like it rebuilt the country from the WW2 ruins? Aren't you prepared to make sacrifices to stop a nation terrorizing Europe? It's been suggested here before, a weak response to Putin creates a situation where he thinks he gets a free hand in everything he does. Like arming dangerous terrorists who like himself lack any respect for human lives. Like getting the power to control the EU by energy exports. Stupid of the EU of course to make itself reliant on a notoriously untrustworthy trade partner.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The site is being looted and disturbed.

Not true.

Bodies are left to rot, desecrated.

Not true again. Bodies and remains are evacuated by pro-Russian rebels to refrigerators.

Barred by half witted, drunk idiots

Look, people are working there. They are securing the crush site, allowing OSCE members to investigate. They protect OSCE nembers from "occasional attack" of Ukranian military forces. Have you tested any of them to alcohol? I'd rather believe that your posts are written by a typical drunk idiot. Are you an American citizen, by chance?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

"The site is being looted and disturbed."

Sidekick: "Not true."

"Bodies are left to rot, desecrated."

Sidekick: "Not true again. Bodies and remains are evacuated by pro-Russian rebels to refrigerators."

"Barred by half witted, drunk idiots"

Sidekick: "Look, people are working there. They are securing the crush site, allowing OSCE members to investigate. They protect OSCE nembers from "occasional attack" of Ukranian military forces. Have you tested any of them to alcohol? I'd rather believe that your posts are written by a typical drunk idiot. Are you an American citizen, by chance?"

Good grief...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Just heard that many of the rebels are stinking drunk. Some of the bodies are left in the sun, Just saw a FOX reporter that reported on some remain body parts he was standing near, reported at the site and that the refrigerated train that is carrying many of the body and remains is now out of gas, which means, the refrigeration system is NOT working and all this in over 30 Celsius degree weather. If you think Russia is handling this with the utmost care and respect, I just don't know what to tell you.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Just heard that many of the rebels are stinking drunk.

Being a "stinking drunk", you can not handle a firearm and secure the crash site. Rebels do it. They have also found CVRs (black boxes). They are moving bodies from the crash site to prevent rotting in 30°C heat. In short, they are doing all serious and responsible work. You show zero respect to yourself, pointing a finger at them and calling "stinking drunk". You can offer nothing to help them, but clicking a keyboard and writing insults.

If you think Russia is handling this with the utmost care and respect...

Well, when try do it by yourself. Action speaks louder than words.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Being a "stinking drunk", you can not handle a firearm and secure the crash site. Rebels do it.

There are numerous reports of rebel fighters drunk off their asses wondering around the crash site.

They have also found CVRs (black boxes). They are moving bodies from the crash site to prevent rotting in 30°C heat.

That's not true, there are still over 100 people missing and many of them or their body parts are rotting in the sun.

In short, they are doing all serious and responsible work.

But they're not letting the professionals meaning the NTSB search the crash site. That's their job, NOT the responsibility of the Russian government.

You show zero respect to yourself, pointing a finger at them and calling "stinking drunk". You can offer nothing to help them, but clicking a keyboard and writing insults.

Hey! I wasn't there, so how can I show disrespect towards myself? There are multiple sources that have confirmed some of the men as being drunk, so you're saying they are all lying to make Russia look bad? Russia already looked bad when they didn't allow the NTSB to investigate the crash site, allow the families to pick up their loved ones and to admit, which is Now confirmed that the Buk Missile was fired and used by the Russian surrogates. Russia is insulting the world, let alone the Ukraine and now this? Please stop making Russia to be the nation of compassion and righteousness.

If you think Russia is handling this with the utmost care and respect...

Well, when try do it by yourself. Action speaks louder than words.

Russia isn't allowing anyone near the crash site except their surrogates.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

If this is used as an excuse to start World War III then I feel the onset of a conspiracy theory regarding the coincidence of their being two Malaysian airways Boeing 777 crashes this year, with the other plane still missing, an initial report from rebels on the ground claiming that MH17 passengers were already dead "days before the flight."http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-leader-gives-bizarre-account-plane-crash-182256709.html There is more here http://www.webcitation.org/6RBLozt4P But you will have to use Google translate https://translate.google.com to read it unless you read Russian. Tragic in any event. But no matter how tragic, I hope it does not lead to war.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

There are numerous reports of rebel fighters drunk off their asses wondering around the crash site.

Please, try to find any "drunk" who "off his ass" on that video footage :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvyr5yqbjlo

And,please, provide your "reports".

That's not true,over 100 people missing and many of them or their body parts are hat's not true, there are stilrotting in the sun.

The crash site is very wide, up to 30 square kilometres. It will take a long time to collect all bodies. Nothing strange. But people are working and you have a cheek to insult them.

But they're not letting the professionals meaning the NTSB search the crash site. That's their job, NOT the responsibility of the Russian government.

ICAO has enough professional air crash investigators besides NTSB team. Pro-Russian rebels wait for them.

Russia isn't allowing anyone near the crash site except their surrogates.

Not Russia but pro-Russian rebels. This is their right. They are on their soil and secure the crash site.

Hey! I wasn't there, so how can I show disrespect towards myself?

Easy. You're sitting around doing nothing except baseless insults while people are working at a crash site.

There are multiple sources that have confirmed some of the men as being drunk, so you're saying they are all lying to make Russia look bad?

Your "multiple sources" are written by people who have never been there.

Russia is insulting the world

For example, rising independent opinion in US-centric political world? This is not "insulting the World" but fighting for the True Information.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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