Ukraine struggles to restore power

Putin has created cruel suffering for tens of millions of people and one day soon needs to be held to account. More than 4,000 missiles have been fired hitting civilian targets. Schools, apartments, hospitals, and power infrastructure.

That seemed to be the legallogic behind the US military whenever they killed civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan.

false !

there have been many allied soldiers charged with the killing of innocent civilians. In Iraq alone, 40 US soldiers were charged, with 12 serving prison time.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/09/us-soldiers-afghan-civilians-fingers

There is also currently a high profile trial in Australia involving a highly decorated soldier.

when the Russian military decides to charge any of their soldiers for a war crime committed, then you may have an argument

Here is the thing, you do not decide what other people care about, nor which wars they mention.

If that is not an attempt at distraction I don't know what is.

or it is another case of whataboutism to distract from the current argument.

No, but thanks for sharing your ideas.It is good to see you try.

This article is about "Ukrainian civilians" suffering after "Russian Missiles" targeted "Ukrainian infrastructure" for what purpose? some military gains? or hopefully make the civilians suffer enough to have an effect on the war effort by Ukraine?

Below is a link to one of many of such incidents over the years.

None of which are relevant to the criticism of Ukrainian resistance members killing Russian invaders.

Having civilians attack soldiers provides legal cover for the Russian army retaliating, this isn't a hard concept tpo grasp.

1) No it doesn't.

2) They're already killing civilians.

I find it rather amazing that someone who claims to be pro Ukraine like you, seems to be extremely non worried about limiting civilian casualties in Ukraine. Weird that.

Yeah, how bizarre is it that I, as someone who supports Ukraine, wants them to defend themselves. Weird that.

Until Putin's invasion of Ukraine, the west assumed his Russian military would be a strong opponent but the shocking fact is their failure on the battlefield.

Putin has been unable to defeat Ukraine's military on the battlefield and has no other option than to terrorize the citizens in the hope that they will be frozen into surrendering. His cowardly supporters here have long since learned to excuse his escalating butchery.

Another savage and predictable war crime to add to his list. As long as people and nations with a moral backbone continue to support Ukraine then this is a war that Putin cannot win.

At some point this shabby land grab won't be worth the thousands of dead Russian boys.

NATO warmonger posters 

we are supporting a country that has been invaded & are trying to defend themselves

you are supporting a regime who has attacked & invaded a country, & is also committing war crimes. Not to mention threatening to use nuclear weapons.

I think we all know who the real war mongers are.

NATO warmonger posters 

NATO did not start this war but thanks to Russia, NATO is no preparing for one. NATO forces will be more mobilized towards the Russian borders than ever before.

Russia started this war and now winter is coming they run and hide behind their defenses and pound the Ukrainian infrastructure, not for any tactical gains beyond creating misery for the Ukrainian people.

We can all see that this is a ploy by Russia to slow down the progress made by Ukraine and I am fairly certain that the Russian troops sitting in their little concrete pillboxes this winter, will be praying that the missiles do their job too.

CNN was just glorifying Ukrainian civilians who were in the streets at night murdering drunk Russian soldiers.

Killing soldiers in a war zone? That's terrible. What's next?

The problem of course is that civilians being non combattants are supposed to be just that, not taking part in combat. 

I don't care. Resistance movements happen in literally every war. You'd be hard-pressed to criticize the French-resistance for killing or sabotaging Germany military units there, and it's just the same for Russian occupiers.

Following this established precendent, wouldn't it be ok for the Russian army to target said civilians, in self defence?

lol No. That doesn't justify committing war crimes against civilians. Not how that works.

Persionally I don't think this would be morally correct, but you can see where the lines get blurred, and more importantly, where you give the Russians a lovely angle to play.

Except they're already raping, pillaging, and killing in Ukraine. They don't need a "lovely angle" to be nasty, awful war criminals- they already are.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said it was Kyiv's fault Ukrainians were suffering because it refused to yield to Moscow's demands, which he did not spell out. Ukraine says it will only stop fighting when all Russian forces have left.

Can Russia justify its invasion of Ukraine or "the special military operations", to use its terminology, because Ukraine refused to yield to Moscow's demands?

It's reported that Russia is destroying the Ukrainian infrastructure, such as power grids, to thwart the Ukrainian public's spirit to fight, a deja vu tactics U.S. forces used against Imperial Japan and its citizens toward the end of WW II to make Japan surrender in consonant with the terms the Allies dictated. 

Vladimir Putin may be comparable to Harry Truman in this respect.

But I already know the answer.

To a question you didn't ask?

Anything illegal, immoral, criminal, war crime, anything= perfectly fine for Ukraine, and only Ukraine, to do.

Oh no, it's terrible! Ukrainians shouldn't be allowed to fight back. If only you held the Russian invaders to the same standards.

Civilians. Why you keep avoiding this word?

I don't care. I don't care if Ukrainian civilians murder invaders. People that already murder Ukrainians in cold blood. When Russian troops die, whether at the hands of "civilians" or "western armed troops," it is a good thing. "Civilians" and "soldiers" alike should continue killing Russian troops until they've decided they've had enough and scamper back to Russia.

Read the story yourself and decide if this is something civilians should be boasting about and that CNN should be glorifying.

100% agree with you that the civilian shouldn't be boasting about it or that a news outlet should be glorifying it. I can't disagree with what he did though. The enemy should not feel comfortable in the streets of the occupied lands for one minute.

AlternativeOpinion

100% agree with you that the civilian shouldn't be boasting about it or that a news outlet should be glorifying it. I can't disagree with what he did though. The enemy should not feel comfortable in the streets of the occupied lands for one minute.

I think it's called the resistance, and it makes holding the city more difficult for the occupiers so that they have to commit more resources to hold the city. Those resources that could have been used elsewhere.

In other words, you are using the accusation of "bad faith" trying to silence opinions you don't like.

or it is another case of whataboutism to distract from the current argument.

Yeah. Also known as a Civilian. By the absence of the terms “soldier”, “military”, “troop” or “combatant”.

Lol Nope. That's not true. Not at all. As has already been laid out, resistance members are covered by the Geneva convention.

real heroic murdering a drunk guy when he is peeing.

Not a "drunk guy." A drunk Russian invader, you're leaving critical elemetns out.

CNN was just glorifying Ukrainian civilians who were in the streets at night murdering drunk Russian soldiers.

Killing soldiers in a war zone? That's terrible. What's next?

hilarious !

if this is the case, wouldn’t it lead to Russians killing civilians in return?

they’ve been doing that since day 1

You left out “civilians”- the most important word.

I don't care. This is what happens when you launch an imperialist invasion and attempt take that which doesn't belong to you. You seem to think Ukrainians should be able to resist their occupiers. Odd.

Winter is coming and the chance that Russia can supply proper equipment to their troops when even in autumn/fall is massive failure. Ukrainian might be without power but Russian troops are without a roof or waterproof sleeping bag. Unless they buy one on line and hope it’s not stolen. The Ukrainian troops are well supplied, it’s just they might get slightly depressed after killing so many Russians, that’s a concern.

Following this established precendent, wouldn't it be ok for the Russian army to target said civilians, in self defence?

the Russian army invades a country, starts murdering & raping their women & children, & you say that it’s ok because it’s in self defence !?

thats messed up dude.

Wil

This is what all the "the Russians are trying to break Ukrainian will but they will fail" crowd are missing. This isn't a campaign aiming to terrorize the Ukrainians into submission. This is a campaign to weaken Ukrains civilian infrastructure to such a degree that the resources available to succesfully wage a campaign against the Russians is severely weakened.

Maybe. Lack of electricity will certainly affect the supply trains.

But my take is that Putin is pushing for a ceasefire, so that he can regroup his troops. His troops are badly equiped for the winter and if Ukraine keeps the pressure on, the Russian conscripts will fare badly.

Not whataboutism it hypocrisy of the west, if you can do it then you cannot say your opponent can't.

I'd Saudi can without the USA and UK cutting off weapons then it means it is clearly acceptable.

Why should you care beyond support for your argument? 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Targeting Power and water or civilian infrastructure is targeting defenseless people in the worst way possible in a land where the brutal winter cold will kill indiscriminately and the most vulnerable are the elderly, sick and the children. The world continues to put up with this outrage of Russian brutality against a peaceful nation out of fear of a nuclear confrontation. The west must provide the equipment and armaments Ukraine needs to respond to this barbarous conduct and allow Ukraine to target inside Russia knocking out their power and water and to hit military targets, munitions and oil supplies and industries making war supplies. This needs to be done immediately. If Russia threatens, the west can simply call the bluff, and advise Russia the attacks will be stopped inside Russia when Russia stops attacking civilian power supply, and hospitals in Ukraine. This one sided attacking is keeping one hand tied behind its back for Ukraine making it so much more difficult for Ukraine to fight successful and also means more aid is needed from Ukraine's supporters.

YrralToday 09:33 am JST

Where is all this aid going,not like the average Ukrainain have a normal life,like go to the store and shop and spend money on mundane thing ,the government is setting up shell companies for the money to be siphon off by corruption,it not like the Ukrainain government is buying thing from other countries, expecting a handout

Sorry but once again Larry seems content to post fantasy pro Russian propaganda that is complete nonsense. Not one shred of proof for his fantasy.

Ukraine daily fights for it's very survival and some posters wish to sow malicious lies in an attempt to discredit the victims so that support falls away and Russia is left to wipe out Ukraine and steal all lands and everything and everyone in them.

It is the corruption in the Russian government that has been behind this insurgency since 2014 and the invasion in 2022. Hundreds of thousands dead, many more injured and millions displaced for Russian corruption and greed. When will Larry post facts and not fantasy? My guess is no time soon and certainly not about Russia's brutal invasion.

When will Russia run out of missiles, the media claimed it had already happened in March?

When will Russia defeat Ukraine ?

Putin claimed it would take just a few days.

war in UA will end when Zelensky will go away.

no, the war will end when Putin is either killed or dethroned. He may even end up being tried as a war criminal like your ex president slobodan.

The US did this in Iraq 1 and 2.... Wasn't a war crime then and isn't one now.

whataboutism - the poor man’s argument

The Russians had better hope that their gambit to kill as many civilians as possible and force a conclusion works because if it doesn't, come the spring time.....

A well-armed, better trained UA is going to have payback on it's mind.

And the winter is going to do nothing to help the Russians re-train (which would assume they were trained in the first place) or re-arm (apart from pulling some more 60 year old tanks off the museum floor).

At some point, the real solution to Russians blowing up civilian infrastructure is to hold Russian cities at equal risk. When the Russians have to worry about their own territory, I predict that domestic pressure will cause them to re-evaluate their choices as if by magic.

The US did this in Iraq 1 and 2.... Wasn't a war crime then and isn't one now.

> whataboutism - the poor man’s argument

Not whataboutism it hypocrisy of the west, if you can do it then you cannot say your opponent can't.

I'd Saudi can without the USA and UK cutting off weapons then it means it is clearly acceptable.

Wil

Could not agree with your more.

CrickyToday 09:18 am JST

Winter is coming and the chance that Russia can supply proper equipment to their troops when even in autumn/fall is massive failure. Ukrainian might be without power but Russian troops are without a roof or waterproof sleeping bag. Unless they buy one on line and hope it’s not stolen. The Ukrainian troops are well supplied, it’s just they might get slightly depressed after killing so many Russians, that’s a concern.

Thats not all.They are also without chips for their drones so they need to steal washing machines from UA homes,that they are running out of stock or rockets,dont have enough of bullets and artillery.Putin have cancer.hmmm.what else I have forgotten?yes UA heroi are winning everywhere.

did you ever heard about-irony?

Peter14,I do not live at the mercy of any government,the government of America live at mercy of it citizen

Where is all this aid going,not like the average Ukrainain have a normal life,like go to the store and shop and spend money on mundane thing ,the government is setting up shell companies for the money to be siphon off by corruption,it not like the Ukrainain government is buying thing from other countries, expecting a handout

Killing soldiers in a war zone?

You left out “civilians”- the most important word.

Otherwise known as non combatants engaging in….combat.

CNN was just glorifying Ukrainian civilians who were in the streets at night murdering drunk Russian soldiers.

if this is the case, wouldn’t it lead to Russians killing civilians in return? Was this really a super great idea from civilians?

I read somewhere that NATO anti missile defenses were knocking down all the missiles fired by Russia, except the ones that land in Poland .... LOL

Knocking out the power grid is not a war crime. Ukraine's railway system is electric, they move munitions by rail. Sadly for the ordinary people in Ukraine they lose their heat and light. The US did this in Iraq 1 and 2.... Wasn't a war crime then and isn't one now.