Ukraine war brings surge in global use of cluster bombs

So Russia mines a trench and waits for Ukraine to enter it before blowing it and we are supposed to be worried about cluster bombs.

Russia has denied using them at all but has threatened to do so in response.

Russia is clearly lying.

The U.S. is supplying Ukraine with cluster munitions.

But I guess it's OK.

Because Russia bad...

Or something....

Both sides are as bad as each other. It’s time for a ceasefire you see.

‘If both leaders died tomorrow the world would be a far better place and hopefully rational people could come into power and sort out the devastation these two thugs have caused.

falseflagsteveToday 07:02 am JST

Both sides are as bad as each other. It’s time for a ceasefire you see.

‘If both leaders died tomorrow the world would be a far better place and hopefully rational people could come into power and sort out the devastation these two thugs have caused.

My comment will probably be deleted, but let's say you are on the record as not being a credible "both-sides"-er.

falseflagsteve

...sort out the devastation these two thugs have caused.

There is only one thug. And he has caused 100% of the devastation.

Both sides are as bad as each other. It’s time for a ceasefire you see.

Both sides are not the same, and that doesn't change regardless of how many times it's uttered, you see. Ukraine is defending itself from a Russian invasion. Russia already rejected the Ukrainian peace proposal, you see.

I really don’t understand the aversion of the majority here who don’t want this to end. I find it incredibly sad to be honest.

Because Russia bad...

Yeah, I'd say invading, raping, and pillaging a country after signing a treaty not do so would make a country "bad."

It's weird how we immediately criticize the US when it's Russia that's the most responsible here:

The number of people killed or wounded by cluster munitions increased eightfold last year to more than 1,000, mostly due to their use in the Ukraine war, particularly by Russia, a campaign group said on Tuesday.

falseflagsteve

I really don’t understand the aversion of the majority here who don’t want this to end. I find it incredibly sad to be honest.

Au contraire, the majority here would love for Putin to stop his imperialism and withdraw from Ukraine.

We don't want this war to continue at all.

I really don’t understand the aversion of the majority here who don’t want this to end. I find it incredibly sad to be honest.

I agree. It's a sign of the times. For some, it seems, they're unable to logically evaluate this terrible situation.

So we must try harder to remind them.

From 2014

Ukrainian government forces used cluster munitions in populated areas in Donetsk city in early October 2014, Human Rights Watch said today. The use of cluster munitions in populated areas violates the laws of war due to the indiscriminate nature of the weapon and may amount to war crimes.

During a week-long investigation in eastern Ukraine, Human Rights Watch documented widespread use of cluster munitions in fighting between government forces and pro-Russian rebels in more than a dozen urban and rural locations. While it was not possible to conclusively determine responsibility for many of the attacks, the evidence points to Ukrainian government forces’ responsibility for several cluster munition attacks on Donetsk. An employee of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) was killed on October 2 in an attack on Donetsk that included use of cluster munition rockets.

HRW = Human Rights Watch - not your typical conspiracy theory group.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions

I really don’t understand the aversion of the majority here who don’t want this to end. I find it incredibly sad to be honest.

The majority here want the war to end.

I can't understand the aversion of the Russians, who don't want the war to end. Literally everyone else wants them to go home and stop this inanity. I find it incredibly sad to be honest.

The U.S. is supplying Ukraine with cluster munitions.

But I guess it's OK. 

Because Russia bad...

Correct.

Theres a more coherent, nuanced explanation, but the rationale you stated is all the Putin fan-bois can understand due in part to “cognitive limitations”.

So let’s go with that.

Strangerland

I find your mindset and aversion to seeing the reality of the conflict to be sad to be honest.

A healthy debate and discusión on all matters is essential to progressing the enlighten mankind.

HRW = Human Rights Watch - not your typical conspiracy theory group.

glad it’s ok to post links from HRW now. Couple of months back I was told they’re basically just the CIA and more western propaganda. Not you, maybe Alex or Sven or one of similar accounts.

I find your mindset

My mind set is that I want this war to end tomorrow.

and aversion to seeing the reality of the conflict to be sad to be honest.

The reality is that Russia unilaterally invaded Ukraine. Ukraine did not invade Russia. Ukraine did not invite Russia. Ukraine is trying to expel Russia.

Russia can unlaterally end the war tomorrow by going home. Ukraine is already at home, and cannot end the war tomorrow by going home.

You're attempting to blame the victim. This is equivalent to watching a guy get sucker punched on the street by a guy trying to kill him, and then tell him he's bad for fighting back to protect from being murdered. Or trying to blame a girl for fighting back from getting raped, instead of working with the rapist to come to an acceptable solution.

I find your mindset and aversion to seeing the reality of the conflict to be sad to be honest.

I find your willingness to pander to authoritarians who have invaded foreign nations to be sad to be honest.

The difference is, I'm on the side of people fighting for their lives and the freedom of their nation. And you?

Ffs - in case it hasn’t been clear, I am 100% anti-invasion. Just wanted to get that on the record.

Putin and Russia are the aggressor and invaders murdering, raping, and torturing Ukrainians. Abduction of thousands of children.

Any means necessary to end the war with a ceasefire should be taken. This is how gentlemen come to agreements and stop the slaughter. If both sides refuse that without condition then it will continue unabated and the terror shall continue.

Heck, why not deploy biological weapns or nuclear weapons?! I mean, whatever it takes, right?!

If the US’ survival was at stake and we were in danger of being conquered, I can guarantee you we would deploy all these and things much nastier. I kinda couldn’t fault the Ukrainians for doing the same (or the Russians, for that matter). Self-defense is an inherent right. Or as we say in my country, better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6.

This is how gentlemen come to agreements and stop the slaughter.

And there is the gaping hole in your argument.

It takes two to come to an agreement, and one side doesn't have a gentleman in charge.

Dunno about you but in my world a gentlemen doesn't send lackeys abroad to kill opposition members, doesn't send troops into a country under cover to stoke rebellion, doesn't renege on signed agreements, doesn't invade his neighbour in a land grab (multiple times), doesn't steal children to brainwash, doesn't conduct illegal 'referenda' at gunpoint and with a large part of the legitimate population in exile, doesn't kil civilians out of sheer spite, and doesn't blow his fellow terrorist out of the sky after pretending to forgive him (see above, 'reneging on agreements).

Find a gentleman with the authority to act on russia's behalf, and you might have a chance of stopping the slaughter, at least temporarily. Might.

Personally I would put more faith in the prospect of finding a very small needle in a country-sized haystack.

Any means necessary to end the war with a ceasefire should be taken. This is how gentlemen come to agreements and stop the slaughter

And to that I say:

The reality is that Russia unilaterally invaded Ukraine. Ukraine did not invade Russia. Ukraine did not invite Russia. Ukraine is trying to expel Russia.

Russia can unlaterally end the war tomorrow by going home. Ukraine is already at home, and cannot end the war tomorrow by going home.

You're attempting to blame the victim. This is equivalent to watching a guy get sucker punched on the street by a guy trying to kill him, and then tell him he's bad for fighting back to protect from being murdered. Or trying to blame a girl for fighting back from getting raped, instead of working with the rapist to come to an acceptable solution.

This is how gentlemen come to agreements and stop the slaughter.

Do gentlemen invade others’ homes, raping and pillaging as they go? I guess times have changed if this is considered gentlemanly.

Putin can end his war today.

Since the Ukraine supporters seem perfectly fine with the U.S. supplying and Ukraine using cluster munitions.... because Russia bad....

Why stop there?!

Heck, why not deploy biological weapns or nuclear weapons?! I mean, whatever it takes, right?!

Talked me into it!

After all, it’s the murdering midget from Moscow and his minions constantly threatening nuclear war if some fantasy line.

It’s the Russians leaving mass graves when they don’t just leave the bodies of the elderly lying in the street with their hands tied behind their backs.

In Ukraine, the report said Russia had used cluster munitions "repeatedly", while Ukraine had also used them, but to "a lesser extent". It did not provide a breakdown.

of course they didnt provide a breakdown or any facts.

Of course. Just claim it as true and move on.

The propaganda is strong with this article.

Russia used the horrific maiming weapons lots and lots.

Ukraine only used the horrific maiming weapons a little tiny bit.

Source: I made it up

Why are Ukraine using them at all if they are supposed to be the good guys? And why is the US supplying them? Clearing out old stock?

The reason cluster bombs have been banned by most civilized countries is because they can remain undetonated and highly dangerous years after a war is over, posing a threat to the civilian population. Ukraine are using them in their own country...

But I’m capable of doing so if anyone threatens myself, my partner or my dear son.

But you're arguing that the Ukrainians, fighting against people who are not only trying to murder their sons, but also take over their nation, should be gentlemanly and negotiate a ceasefire, while saying you yourself would fight if someone was threatening your son.

And here I thought you would take any means necessary to end their aggression with a dissuasion as this is how gentlemen come to agreements.

falseflagsteve

Any means necessary to end the war with a ceasefire should be taken.

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. Others don't like hold it it, because it is just delaying the invasion and allowing Putin to regroup and then continue. It doesn't bring peace.

This is how gentlemen come to agreements and stop the slaughter.

Problem is, it doesn't stop the slaughter, it just postpones it.

No matter how many times a poster(s) say “both sides this, both sides that” there is absolutely no comparison. One side unilaterally invaded a neighboring country with the intent of conquering and appropriating that country’s territory. That cannot be discussed or pandered to, only after the invading forces completely withdraw and return, restore, or compensate for everything the did can anything else be discussed. Putin can withdraw his forces or they can be forced out. Putin doesn’t want to end the war and has refused to negotiate so the only option is for the world to give Ukraine anything and everything they need, and keep giving for as long as necessary, to expel the invaders!

Chabbawanga

The reason cluster bombs have been banned by most civilized countries is because they can remain undetonated and highly dangerous years after a war is over, posing a threat to the civilian population. Ukraine are using them in their own country...

Which is why Ukraine is limiting their use to areas that civilians rarely go, as opposed to the Russians who have no such qualms.

One look a the layers of defense that Russia has setup, Cluster bombs can help clear a path much safer than a bunch of engineers can. Good luck to the Ukrainians, send the Russians home with a good old spanking.

I take that back, probably not the best way to clear minefields or booby trapped trenches.

I take that back, probably not the best way to clear minefields or booby trapped trenches.

But it IS an excellent way to kill Russians!

The reality is that Russia unilaterally invaded Ukraine.

True, and why did they do that? Why did they actually do that? dont give me some nonsense about Putin being a crazy despot.

why did they do that?

Because Ukraine was cleaning up it's corruption problem so they could become a member of NATO, and that scared Putin, because it would make Russia look bad if Ukraine was able to clean up corruption. So Putin freaked out and decided to try to take over their territory, thereby expanding Russian territory towards NATO borders.

This isn't a secret, have you just aged into caring about the issue for the first time?

True, and why did they do that?

Something to do with Nazis, then biolabs, then NATO, then some other feeble excuse for stealing land.

The odium of war is and will forever be on Russia.

Chabbawanga

The reality is that Russia unilaterally invaded Ukraine.

True, and why did they do that? Why did they actually do that? dont give me some nonsense about Putin being a crazy despot.

Russian imperialism.

Ukraine was cleaning up it's corruption problem so they could become a member of NATO, and that scared Putin, because it would make Russia look bad if Ukraine was able to clean up corruption. So Putin freaked out and decided to try to take over their territory.

What would the United States do if Mexico or Canada became part of an organisation set up specifically to combat the threat of the the US? What would they do if China, or Russia decided to set up missile sites in Mexico with the capability of targeting and destroying key sites in the US?

You know that exact situation actually happened in the 60s in Cuba. In the end the Soviets decided to spare the people of Cuba from a US invasion and didnt set up any missiles.

There are no goodies and baddies in this conflict, only corrupt, self-serving politicians on both sides, and military contractors and big businesses trying to make profits at the expense of human lives. Same old story. Western media is just as filled with propaganda as anything you will find in Russia.

Russian imperialism.

I raise you a US military industrial complex.

The US MIC forced Russia to invade Ukraine in Feb 2022? That sounds like Russia not taking accountability for their own actions.

Chabbawanga

Russian imperialism.

I raise you a US military industrial complex.

Did the US military industrial complex invade Ukraine? No. Russia did.

There are no goodies and baddies in this,

if you don’t want to think about it in terms of good and bad, how about invader and invaded? We can at least agree on that, right?

thereby expanding Russian territory towards NATO borders."

Oh, so Russia isn’t intending on expanding their borders at the expense of their neighbor? Good to know.

Because Ukraine was cleaning up it's corruption problem so they could become a member of NATO

LOL

Well you can't argue with that misinformation. Well done.

Invalid CSRF

Well you can't argue with that misinformation. Well done.

Clearly you can't argue with that truth.

how about invader and invaded? We can at least agree on that, right?

How about instigator, invader, invaded? We can agree on that right?

Did the US military industrial complex invade Ukraine? No. Russia did.

Come on buddy. Who really benefits from this ongoing conflict.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/lockheed-martin-raises-full-year-forecast-strong-weapons-demand-2023-07-18/

Even The NY Times finally beginning honest reporting

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/04/world/europe/ukraine-military-spending-corruption.html

@UChosePoorly

Oh, so Russia isn’t intending on expanding their borders at the expense of their neighbor?

Would I be correct in assuming that you believe that NATO expansion makes no one any money? That its just a 100 percent honest and free attempt to create a mutual security alliance at....uh...at NO ONE's expense?

Would I also be correct in assuming that you believe that no ordinary person born in Donbas or Crimea actually identifies as Russian and wants their areas to be part of Russia?

Or is it that you expect near entire cities of people to sell everything, pack up, and move to Russia if they want to be Russian?

Maybe, just maybe, this is not just the simple land grab you have been led to believe, hmmm?

Come on buddy. Who really benefits from this ongoing conflict.

Certainly not the murdering midget of Moscow, but it’s not for lack of trying.