Ukraine, West denounce Russian referendum plans for occupied regions

Weird, I thought this was about protecting Russian speaking Ukrainians, and not annexing large swaths of occupied territory.

This too shall fail.

If the referendum plan "wasn't so tragic it would be funny,

this sums up Russia perfectly.

citizens will have two choices to choose from -

1, join Russian federation

2, enter special rehabilitation camp

Bronco

If the idea of a vote triggers you, are you not authoritarian?

The idea of a vote is fine. But a fake Russian referendum? Not so much.

Of course, we know the real reason for the referendum:

"Encroachment onto Russian territory is a crime which allows you to use all the forces of self–defense," Dmitry Medvedev, a former Russian president and now hawkish deputy chairman of President Vladimir Putin's Security Council, said on social media.

If they hold the fake referendum and declare the regions as part of Russia, then they can use it as an excuse to mobilize regular Russian conscripts to defend the region. Putin is so short on troops he is desperate, and hence this referendum is to be held in a couple of days.

Also the idea of a state holding a referendum in another sovereign state is ridiculous.

It's like if Mexico held a referendum in parts of Texas with a lot of Spanish speakers, faked the results and said, they are part of Mexico now.

Referendums sure seem to be a democratic way to go-should be implemented in Japan!

It's a fake vote, a scam, another PR stunt!

Of course playing into Putin's hands.

Once those so-called referendums are over and those areas will become "Russianized", Putin will regard any liberization of those areas by Ukraine an act of violence / war. This will enable him to call for a mobilization and further escalation of his "3-day-limited-operation". He's just such a genius (NOT!!!). Hope the international community will take further steps to isolate him and his regime!

Cards fanToday  07:21 am JST

Weird, I thought this was about protecting Russian speaking Ukrainians, and not annexing large swaths of occupied territory.

This too shall fail.

Excuses, excuses, excuses. And why would.should anyone vote for annexation to Russia after all the devastation and destruction this war has placed upon them?

Luke, it's a SHAM!

Russia holding a fair election? Now that is an oxymoron if I ever heard one.

This is an act of sheer desperation.

The leaders of the breakaway regions are terrified. If Ukraine continues their advance from the East, leaders will be treated as traitors - which holds a fate worse than that being wrought upon Ukraine's enemies. On their western border, it must be dawning on the leaders of Luhansk and Donetsk that Russia is re-thinking the cost of holding such inconsequential territory - particularly if it drains resources away from holding the real prize - the Crimean Peninsula.

The idea of a referendum at gunpoint, by an occupying army, is the ultimate definition of authoritarian.

putin, again, showing how desperate he’s becoming

Complete sham. How can a successful referendum be carried out in areas where there is no law and order at present? I'm not sure how usual supporters such as @Bronco can even try to defend this.

Where is the normal (at least one month), free and open campaign for both sides to argue their point in a free and open press?

Nothijg wrong with free and fair and well notified referendums, but with 4 days notice in a country that isn't legally your territory.

Im waiting to laugh at the crazy excuses the Putin supporters can justify this with!

Russia's parliament on Tuesday approved a bill to toughen punishments for a host of crimes such as desertion, damage to military property and insubordination, if they were committed during military mobilization or combat situations.

Abandoning washing machines on the field of battle should have an especially harsh penalty.

Complete sham. How can a successful referendum be carried out in areas where there is no law and order at present?

Exactly. Not to mention the fascist Russians are accepting votes from residents inside Russia. It's just one giant sham - the exact model of Russian "democracy".

Fortunately the world will ignore Mini-me's act of desperation.

"The Russians can do whatever they want. It will not change anything," Ukraine's Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba said in response to reporters' questions at the United Nations.""

AMEN.

Call their bluff.

“You won’t retake areas we re-take because you cannot. You lake sober soldiers who want to fight, crew-cookers, er… “tanks”, and the ability to control the air.

BTW, if you do try, we will start holding targets in Mother Russia “at risk.”

Think about that, Putie….

In a move designed to shore up Russia's military in Ukraine, Russia's parliament on Tuesday approved a bill to toughen punishments for a host of crimes such as desertion, damage to military property and insubordination, if they were committed during military mobilization or combat situations.

No running away!

Why should Albanians in Kosovo get a democratic choice but not Ukrainians?

Russia doesn't even control the entirety of some of these provinces... How can they annex territory they don't even control?

It will be embarrassing for the Kremlin when they start abandoning "Russian territory" during their next strategic regrouping.

Abandoning washing machines on the field of battle should have an especially harsh penalty.

The Russians are so smart they can get chips from washing machines to power hypersonic missiles. NATO powers still can't get them working with the latest Sillicon Valley chips.

Can’t wait to see the look n Putin’s face when Ukraine joins NATO. That should be priceless.

Putin is playing a dangerous game. Those areas will be declared Russian regardless of any illegal referendum. After that, any Ukraine attacks will be declared attacks against Russian territory.

There are only two avenues left to Russia now, declare this a war, or retreat. So really what it comes down to is whether the people working in the background in the Kremlin can figure out how to take out Putin, allowing them to retreat, or if he'll hold on to power, requiring a declaration of war.

Some of the Ukrainian bodies discovered in the new mass graves had their genitals cut off.

"We are continuing to find numerous bodies with marks of violent death, including broken ribs and skulls, men with hands tied behind their backs, with broken jaws, with their genitals cut off,” Yenin said."

https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/09/20/bodies-of-russian-victims-in-izium-are-mutilated-have-severed-genitals-deputy-minister/

The Russians are so smart they can get chips from washing machines to power hypersonic missiles

Thats one of the many reasons that they suck in terms of reliability and miss their targets a large percentage of the time.

Hitler did the same with his Anschluss policy. The Nazis loved plebiscites - after they had taken over a territory and crushed the opposition.

Mordac

Why should Albanians in Kosovo get a democratic choice but not Ukrainians?

They absolutely should. But they aren't being offered a democratic choice. They are being offered a fake referendum.

The Russians are so smart they can get chips from washing machines to power hypersonic missiles

Thats one of the many reasons that they suck in terms of reliability and miss their targets a large percentage of the time.

yes, instead of entering the correct target coordinates, they’re entering the number of wash & rinse cycles

“All the technology and reliability of a Russian washing machine!”

Now THATS LOL.

So they are going to throw together a referendum in 3 days in the middle of a war zone on territory they don't even fully control?

Russia really does suck at everything, even sham referendums.

These sham referendums will have the same effect as Russian jack-in-the-box tanks: the (mercifully) instantaneous incineration of those inside, a fair amount of flame and sputtering, followed by a tremendous explosion that hurls something big hundreds of meters skyward.

Then, nothing.

Why are you people so angry about people on the other side of the world democratically choosing for themselves?

Mordac, guess you didn't read the comments or you are in sarcastic mode.

There is no democracy when you choose Russia!

Let me try to make it easy to understand: Russia is a terrorist state, run by a dictator!

Yeah, do you really believe it's a free and fair vote?

They are trying to put a referendum together in just a few days, in a disputed region during a war... Have you ever heard of that before? It's like they have a 7-day free SurveyMonkey trial that they need to use before it expires.

yes, instead of entering the correct target coordinates, they’re entering the number of wash & rinse cycles

This is coping mechanism. Just because you don't like it doesn't change the fact they are a powerful civilization. Though not sure why so many Anglo-Americans are so upset by the fact. Maybe because the very year USA became the major capitalist power, the Russian Revolution closed off a very large part of the world to capitalist exploitation? The American ruling class is furious but why does the average worker have a problem?

Anyway, best to just leave them alone. No coups, no military alliance bases near their borders. No meddling in their internal affairs. Do that and the Russians just drink vodka, talk about Lenin and be happy. But don't do it and they become deadly serious.

Why are you people so angry about people on the other side of the world democratically choosing for themselves?

Shall my country have "elections" in your land, to determine if we should invade or not?

You don't seem to realize how silly you sound, trying to justify Putin trying to expand his borders towards NATO, thereby forcing WWIII.

Yeah, I know any state that doesn't bow to Western imperialism is 'a terrorist state', 'run by a dictator' and etc.....

No, states run by dictators who use the power of their nations to execute terrorist actions against sovereign nations are terrorist states run by dictators.

What gave you the stupid idea it has anything to do with western imperialism?

If anything it should be a Ukrainian referendum and not an illegal Russia one by every Ukraine citizen. Shall Ukraine hold a referendum on whether Putin should continue as president, or not?

Putin supports Taiwan then. What about Russia's break away states?

Russia the largest country in the world with a total area of 17,098,242 Km² (6,601,665 mi²) and a land area of 16,376,870 Km² (6,323,142 mi²), equivalent to 11% of the total world's landmass of 148,940,000 Km² (57,510,000 square miles).

Why does it need more land?

best to just leave them alone

we tried doing that , right up til this year.

the problem is / was, they didn’t leave everyone else alone did they ?

democratically choosing for themselves

forcing people to vote a certain way at the point of a gun isn’t very democratic is it

The population of Ukraine is 44 million. What is the population of Ukraine's eastern region? Approximately 4.1 million inhabitants. Where is the democracy in this referendum?

A further waste of Russian resources already being stretched. The territory is all Ukraine and will always be Ukraine just as Crimea and Donbas is Ukraine. It will all be taken back from Russia, with or without their consent.

The Russians have lost the plot.

Remove all the pro Ukrainians and then hold a sham referendum for all the pro Russians to vote on. The complete lack of validity does not register on Russian leaders.

You should know that between Russia and Ukraine armies today we have a great difference. Ukraine have totally mobilize its army, but Russia not – only very small peacetime professionals.

Before Russia just demonstrate some problems to Kiev.

From 21 September, it will be different war. With mobilization hard attacks on Ukrainian infrastructure and so one. It will be very serious.

              So today, Russia really come to this war. Before it was only negotiation offer.

You want to play – let’s play

Mordac

Maybe because the very year USA became the major capitalist power, the Russian Revolution closed off a very large part of the world to capitalist exploitation?

Do that and the Russians just drink vodka, talk about Lenin and be happy.

You seem to be under the impression that Russia is still a communist country.

News alert: it isn't.

A further waste of Russian resources already being stretched. The territory is all Ukraine and will always be Ukraine just as Crimea and Donbas is Ukraine.

You should learn history.

Ukraine was very small state

Without Crimea or Donbas

Will the 5 million Ukrainians living outside of the country be included in the referendum?

Just before Putin's invasion, he said on TV he was not going to take any Ukrainian land. He lied.

You want to play – let’s play

Or you guys could go home and end the bloodshed.

Interesting how the block of nations that support independence and self determination for Tibet and Taipei, and deemed the civil war in Yugoslavia sufficient grounds for military intervention and the breakup of that country oppose independence for Donetsk and Luhansk and deem the civil war in Ukraine insufficient grounds for military intervention and the breakup of that country.

Absolutely not a matter of changing the yardstick based on their self interest.

Definitely not.

They're like Trump, their conflicting stances are the result of deep principles.

Olegek

A further waste of Russian resources already being stretched. The territory is all Ukraine and will always be Ukraine just as Crimea and Donbas is Ukraine.

You should learn history.

Ukraine was very small state

Without Crimea or Donbas

You should learn geography. Ukraine is a large state.

Without Crimea and Donbas.

Vladimir Putin in a direct speech to Russians tonight in his first address since the invasion

Russian President Vladimir Putin is expected to order the full mobilization of his country's military which could see up to two million reservists scrambled to join his operation

Vladimir Putin is due to speak to Russians directly tonight in his biggest speech since the nation invaded Ukraine.

The Russian President is expected to order the full mobilization of his country's military which could see up to two million reservists scrambled to join his operation.

The unusual move comes just as pro-Russian authorities in the Donbas region revealed they will hold referendums on joining Russia this week.

Both regions in eastern Ukraine are expected to hold votes between September 23 and 27.

*With Crimea and Donbas

There's something rather circular in declaring a democratically elected government a dictatorship because it opposes your efforts to force the world into serving you, and then deeming any action that thwarts your efforts illegal because it is the work of a dictator.

It's as if even you recognized the ridiculousness of straight out declaring that any action that thwarts your is illegal, but find that including a single intermediate step confuses yourself enough to make the ridiculousness disappear, and assume everyone else is as limited.

Eastman - Ukraine will push the invaders out eventually. If the people living there really want to live in Russia, they should move there. How would your country react to a separatist movement funded and supported by a much larger aggressive neighbor? Not too favorably, I would imagine.

There's something rather circular in declaring a democratically elected government a dictatorship because it opposes your efforts to force the world into serving you, and then deeming any action that thwarts your efforts illegal because it is the work of a dictator.

There's nothing Democratic about Russia, nor would there be anything Democratic about these elections that the Russian occupiers would be forcing residents there to participate in at gunpoint. No one is falling for the Kremlin talking points, they're very silly.

You should learn geography. Ukraine is a large state.

Without Crimea and Donbas.

Before entering in Russian empire it was a small state.

So Russians take back it's land

divorce and maiden name - so it's called in Russian

Olegek - that was a long time ago. Please stop living in the past.

Olegek - that was a long time ago. Please stop living in the past.

"It's not personal. ... It's strictly business"

@UChosePoorly

If the people living there really want to live in Russia, they should move there

They will. With their land, where they lived for generations without any failed state called Ukraine.

How would your country react to a separatist movement funded and supported by a much larger aggressive neighbor?

Remember Kosovo? Yogoslavia / Serbia tried to defend its province, to quell a violent insurgency by armed separatists, funded and supported by foreign powers. NATO should return Kosovo to Serbia first, and only after that give lectures about "international law".

So Russians take back it's land

Yeah, good luck with that.

Your army sucks. Your (educated) nation doesn't want to fight. The rest are drunk.

Your air "farce" is on vacation and your "fleet" is in hiding.

So, there is nobody to "play" with.

I don't really understand why the West's pet Z@zi's are upset by this? Ukraine was about the size of Hungary, Romania, Czechoslovakia or Serbia before the Bolsheviks granted it all the lands in the east and south and a little later liberated western Ukraine from Polish occupation and then took south eastern regions from Hungary and Romania as punishment for joining the invasion of the Soviet Union asnf granted those lands to the Ukraine. Yet, the West's pet ruling N@zis claim to hate the Bolsheviks. Weird.

Interesting insignia on the Ukrainian tanks and APCs. White crosses, just like on Wehrmacht panzers. Ucroforces mimic their nazi idols even in such details.

We missed you guys on this forum the last week or two. Did you all go on vacation together?

I don't understand why the average foreigner in Japan should be so butt hurt over this. The collapse of the Soviet Union was an outright disaster for working people, 98% of the population, in Europe, North America and Japan. This isn't quite the Russian Revolution all over again but at very least, together with the rise of China, western powers won't be running all over the world bombing and killing people while cutting back on social services at home to pay for it along with using the working class for cannon fodder.

Short of overthrowing the ruling regimes in Western countries, this is one of the best possible outcomes for the average working class citizen.

UChosePoorly

We missed you guys on this forum the last week or two. Did you all go on vacation together?

Nothing of substance to reply? With all your team that works here 24/7?

@ass

unlike the Russian version of the swastika, the Ukrainian white cross was often depicted on the flag of various Cossack regiments

Did you all go on vacation together?

maybe they went to the annual anti-west conference

maybe they went to the annual anti-west conference

Together with most of the world?

Asakaze - sorry, I had to get that dig in. The absence was conspicuous. I believe we have discussed Kosovo before. If you thought NATO intervention in the former Yugoslavia was wrong, then why would you think what Russia is doing currently is any better?

@Nemo

Your army sucks. Your (educated) nation doesn't want to fight. The rest are drunk.

Your air "farce" is on vacation and your "fleet" is in hiding

The Russins deployed at Ukraine only about 15 percent of their army's manpower, only volunteers fight there. Ukraine fully mobilized all its forces, there were five or six "mobilization waves", they are planning now to prohibit able-bodied males to leave the country.

Air Force - Russians are flying dozens or hundreds sorties daily. UkroAir-Farce is sweeped clean from the skies, two - three sorties a day max.

Navy - Russian Black See Fleet patrols the Ukrainian coastline. Ukronavy (well, what remained of it) is hiding in its bases.

With three-fourfold numerical superiority in infantry, with all NATO intelligence and technical support the Ukroforces almost bleeded white in their two counteroffensives, taking just two towns in the process.

Yeah, it's obvious which army sucks.

You should know that between Russia and Ukraine armies today we have a great difference.

Yup. Russian army sucks. Ukrainian army doesn't. Very great difference.

With three-fourfold numerical superiority in infantry, with all NATO intelligence and technical support the Ukroforces almost bleeded white in their two counteroffensives, taking just two towns in the process.

3 fold you say? And yet not able to achieve a single objective of a 3-day operation 7 months in.

Exploding tanks (when they are not abondoned). A vanishing air farce, a surface fleet that struggles with issues of boyancy.

Yeah, it's obvious which army sucks.

It is indeed.

You should learn history.

You should learn of modern times.

Ukraine was very small state

Ukraine is a large nation.

Without Crimea or Donbas

It includes Donbas and Crimea. Look at any current world maps not made in Russia.

Yeah, it's obvious which army sucks.

Yeah, the one that just abandoned all its equipment in Kharkiv and ran away like cowards. That one obviously sucks.

Asakaze,

so, let me see (concerning your "volunteer trops only" comment):

there are guard assault units, guard fighter aviation, guard airborne, guards combined arms, guards motor rifle ..... do you want me to continue. Pay attention to the word "guards" - all special units with little to no volunteers.

Hope that answers a couple of doubts.

You should learn of modern times.

Sorry, Ukraine defeat Russia on battlefield? I've missed something?

In 1991 it was a territory of Ukrainian Soviet Republic not Ukraine.

Ukraine is a large nation.

Today is a group of nazi

Nazi can't be great, sorry.

It includes Donbas and Crimea. Look at any current world maps not made in Russia.

Tell me only one reason why?

You can made any map but ukrainain Nazi never return Donbass|/Crimea.

Just forget.

Serious question, if Russia fully mobilizes, where will they get equipment for these new forces that they plan to deploy? Now they are running out and it's just the contract soldiers.

Sorry, Ukraine defeat Russia on battlefield? I've missed something?

"So long as we keep running away from them like cowards, the Ukrainians can't say they defeated us on the battlefield."

Peter14Today  03:03 pm JST

You should learn history.

Ukraine is a large nation.

Tell me more about history of Greate Ukraine!