Taiwan reports largest incursion yet by Chinese air force

Just recognize Taiwan and put a US base there. Otherwise, I suspect the CCP will invade sooner than we think.

I read that the PLAF is actually practicing striking US Cartier groups. But this is most worrying. We need to show resolve.

China had better be careful. If you shake up a hornet's nest, then you'll get stung.

OK, Biden. Time to do something about China.

War is coming. Don't let China choose when it starts. That will be when they've mobilized and are prepared.

Taiwan should issue a statement about allowed distance for Chinese military equipment and shoot down/sink any that come closer. Something similar to what China did with their coast guard being authorized to engage other ships.

International airspace! what does that has done wrong! hey the Taiwanese F16s and Mirage were going to be worn out at such high intensity of scrambling!

ADIZ is still international airspace!

International airspace! what does that has done wrong! hey the Taiwanese F16s and Mirage were going to be worn out at such high intensity of scrambling!

Not to worry. Those F-16's and Mirage fighters are not "Made in China".

China is playing games again. Snubbing those noses at the world, spoiling for a fight - esp. since trumptrash isn't around to kiss their asses now.

If I was Taiwan, I would be nice to China. They are kidding themselves if they think the American caverly will come to their rescue. Just look what happened in Georgia. USA ran away, then after they lost, America came back selling very expensive weapons.

SuperLib

OK, Biden. Time to do something about China.

Oh he is. So far he has been doing all that the CCP wants, and don´t hold your breath for that to change.

Just recognize Taiwan 

As what?

how about the existence of an article called "Taiwan reports largest incursion yet by Chinese air force" that contains no mention of any comments by one Joseph R. Biden? with the yet part meaning this isnt the first time this has happened.

not any Google search of recent days that discusses Biden telling China to stop this. Just Blinken saying it would be a "mistake" for China to keep doing this. then China showing how much they dont even care what he said and immediately doing it again.

Balls in your court, Joe.

I wonder if the Taipei Times is reputable on this subject

https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2021/04/13/2003755574

"Biden needs to scrap Xi infatuation"

how about the existence of an article called "Taiwan reports largest incursion yet by Chinese air force" that contains no mention of any comments by one Joseph R. Biden? with the yet part meaning this isnt the first time this has happened.

Sounds like you're putting a lot of faith in the mainstream media. I thought they were lying to us? Didn't they say that Biden won the election, when you knew that, actually, the Supreme Court would overturn the results and make Trump the dictator for life? And you were right when the MSM was wro- oh hold on a minute.

Imagine being a Qanon devotee who thinks they have a grasp of how the world works.

Taiwan needs nukes.

Completely wrong.

Just recognize Taiwan 

As what?

As a separate country from China.

As a separate country from China.

That isn't the view of the government of Taiwan.

That isn't the view of the government of Taiwan.

Because they didn't want to shake things up. But now, things are different

Because they didn't want to shake things up. But now, things are different

Are you saying that the US should consider Taiwan not to be the nation of China, against the view of the Taiwanese government?

Because that has been US policy for decades, and continues to this day.

Are you saying that the US should consider Taiwan not to be the nation of China, against the view of the Taiwanese government?

No I'm saying that the US needs to recognize Taiwan as a separate entity OR if the Taiwanese don't want that then they can refuse it at their own peril.

Because that has been US policy for decades, and continues to this day.

so what? things change.

No I'm saying that the US needs to recognize Taiwan as a separate entity OR if the Taiwanese don't want that then they can refuse it at their own peril.

Taiwan's position is that it is China. I disagree: the Chinese government has become an appalling entity, and it can only be solved with democratic reforms. I don't know how to do that. But the fact of the matter is that the Kuomintang lost the civil war.

I personally think Taiwan should pursue independence, so I might agree with you, but it's a matter for the Taiwanese government and — more importantly — the Taiwanese people. It shouldn't be up to the US to decide what states are and are not independent.

so what? things change.

I don't recall denying this.

Taiwan's position is that it is China. I disagree: the Chinese government has become an appalling entity,

agree.

and it can only be solved with democratic reforms.

I personally don't believe that will EVER happen.

I don't know how to do that. But the fact of the matter is that the Kuomintang lost the civil war.

Agree.

I personally think Taiwan should pursue independence, so I might agree with you, but it's a matter for the Taiwanese government and — more importantly — the Taiwanese people. It shouldn't be up to the US to decide what states are and are not independent.

Nobody said it should be unilaterally decided by the US. But the US has pursued a 1 China policy which included NOT recognizing the legitimacy of Taiwan. By recognizing that Taiwan is a sovereign state the US can then OFFICIALLY offer them complete protection IF that is what they want. But Taiwan was never given the choice as it is not recognized by the international community- but that is not because Taiwan sees itself as the legit China, its because the world didn't want to antagonize the CCP

I personally don't believe that will EVER happen.

I think it is possible, even if I myself cannot see the path. Democracy is the greatest, most revolutionary idea to ever inform human governance. Even the Chinese Communists were originally motivated by the genius and beauty of one person, one vote. I refuse to believe that the people are incapable of breaking their shackles. I am no better than any Chinese farmer or laborer. If I succumb to the belief that authoritarianism can have complete victory, or that the people are ultimately too weak to make meaningful change, what hope is there for me? What hope is there for us? What hope is there for this Earth?

Nobody said it should be unilaterally decided by the US.

My apologies, I must have misunderstood you when you said, "Just recognize Taiwan and put a US base there."

But the US has pursued a 1 China policy which included NOT recognizing the legitimacy of Taiwan.

Taiwan's position is also that there is only one China. And it is, in my view, an illegitimate position.

By recognizing that Taiwan is a sovereign state the US can then OFFICIALLY offer them complete protection IF that is what they want. But Taiwan was never given the choice as it is not recognized by the international community- but that is not because Taiwan sees itself as the legit China, its because the world didn't want to antagonize the CCP

This is somewhat speculative, but I imagine that many countries, given that they have semi-official ties with Taiwan, would recognise it as a nation if it declared independence as "The Republic of Taiwan", and not "The Republic of China". But it won't, because the official policy of the Republic of China is that the People's Republic of China is a usurper of mainland China. And the fact is, that is wrong.

 Democracy is the greatest, most revolutionary idea to ever inform human governance.

True.

Even the Chinese Communists were originally motivated by the genius and beauty of one person, one vote.

Yeah....that was before they discovered they seized power.

I refuse to believe that the people are incapable of breaking their shackles.

Go to Syria. Then you will believe.

I am no better than any Chinese farmer or laborer. If I succumb to the belief that authoritarianism can have complete victory, or that the people are ultimately too weak to make meaningful change, what hope is there for me? What hope is there for us? What hope is there for this Earth?

Yes idealism is nice, but we live in the real world. And the CCP is NOT going to relinquish power easily

My apologies, I must have misunderstood you when you said, "Just recognize Taiwan and put a US base there."

Yes you did. Because I did not mean it against the will of the Taiwanese people. I would have thought that needed no explanation but I will explain a little more from now on so you don't get confused again.

Taiwan's position is also that there is only one China. And it is, in my view, an illegitimate position.

No Taiwan's position is that there is only one legitimate China. And it is ALSo in my view, an illegitimate position.

This is somewhat speculative, but I imagine that many countries, given that they have semi-official ties with Taiwan, would recognise it as a nation if it declared independence as "The Republic of Taiwan", and not "The Republic of China". But it won't, because the official policy of the Republic of China is that the People's Republic of China is a usurper of mainland China. And the fact is, that is wrong.

That is very speculative too. The fact is, too many countries are wary of antagonizing China and will NEVER recognize Taiwan.

It would be best to go to Taiwan and lay the cards on the table. Say to them " Look, declare independence as the Nation of Taiwan and we can protect you with military bases if you want. But understand that you may be invaded sooner than later. Your choice."

Yeah....that was before they discovered they seized power.

Yeah. That's why democracy is good and authoritarianism is bad.

Go to Syria. Then you will believe.

I believe in freedom for the people of Syria. Once, people couldn't imagine a world without kings. Before that, they couldn't imagine a world without shaman. Before that, they couldn't imagine a world beyond caves. Once.

Yes idealism is nice, but we live in the real world. And the CCP is NOT going to relinquish power easily

Nothing that was worth having ever came easily.

Yes you did. Because I did not mean it against the will of the Taiwanese people. I would have thought that needed no explanation but I will explain a little more from now on so you don't get confused again.

Thank you. I think it's good to be clear when writing, so I appreciate your conversion to my cause.

That is very speculative too.

Yeah, that's... that's what I said.

The fact is, too many countries are wary of antagonizing China and will NEVER recognize Taiwan.

Not under its current position that it is China, no. I wouldn't, either. It's flatly incorrect.

It would be best to go to Taiwan and lay the cards on the table. Say to them " Look, declare independence as the Nation of Taiwan and we can protect you with military bases if you want. But understand that you may be invaded sooner than later. Your choice."

Not much here that I disagree with, except that Taiwan should come to us. It should be their decision, based on a vote by their people. We should not be pressuring other countries into surrendering their political positions — even if they are wrong.

Given the complexities of military logistics, China could not possibly mobilize an invasion force without giving away its intentions. So there will be no "sneak attack." The question is, how long could Taiwan hold off a major military offensive? Another question that arises is whether or not China's citizens will feel the cost in money and lives will make taking the island worth it.

Yeah. That's why democracy is good and authoritarianism is bad.

yeah so lets not talk about the CCP deciding to go democratic. that's not going to happen

I believe in freedom for the people of Syria. Once, people couldn't imagine a world without kings. Before that, they couldn't imagine a world without shaman. Before that, they couldn't imagine a world beyond caves. Once.

so do I. But the idea that anyone can break out of their shackles is pie in the sky.

Nothing that was worth having ever came easily.

Yes but wishing for it and being idealistic won't help.

Not under its current position that it is China, no. I wouldn't, either. It's flatly incorrect.

they won't recognize taiwan under any circumstances. this is about economics and access to the Chinese market and not idealistic pie in the sky ideals

Not much here that I disagree with, except that Taiwan should come to us.

It should be their decision, based on a vote by their people. We should not be pressuring other countries into surrendering their political positions — even if they are wrong.

No one is talking about pressure. the US should just warn them that china might very well be getting ready to invade. Of course the decision is theirs. But the US has always pursued a 1 China policy that has not been encouraging for taiwan. the US goes to them and offers them protection. They can take it or leave it.

Taiwan is part of China as stated in its constitution and passport, and therefore, there is no 'violation' of its airspace.

If US does not want to risk a war, then it will continue to recognize 1C2S.

yeah so lets not talk about the CCP deciding to go democratic. that's not going to happen

It might not. But it is possible.

so do I. But the idea that anyone can break out of their shackles is pie in the sky. Yes but wishing for it and being idealistic won't help.

The idea that people cannot break free of their shackles is advocating for hopelessness.

Wishing for a better world and idealism aren't "unhelpful," and they're not even just "nice". They are essential. It might not be true that if you dream it, you can do it. But it is true that if you don't dream it, you can't do it.

they won't recognize taiwan under any circumstances. this is about economics and access to the Chinese market and not idealistic pie in the sky ideals

Who? The US? If you don't think the US will recognize Taiwan under any circumstances, why do you think that the US should offer Taiwan recognition? It would be nice if you would, as you promised, made things clearer.

No one is talking about pressure. the US should just warn them that china might very well be getting ready to invade. Of course the decision is theirs. But the US has always pursued a 1 China policy that has not been encouraging for taiwan. the US goes to them and offers them protection. They can take it or leave it.

I'm sure that Taiwan can figure out China's motivations and efforts by itself.

Incidentally, telling a country that they should do something and we will offer protection, otherwise they are on their own, is the definition of "putting pressure" on that country.

If US does not want to risk a war, then it will continue to recognize 1C2S.

I agree not risking a war is essential. But "One China, Two Systems" has been proven a definitive joke by the recent actions of the Beijing government with regards to Hong Kong. Things need to change.

yeah so lets not talk about the CCP deciding to go democratic. that's not going to happen

It might not. But it is possible.

No it isn't. we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The idea that people cannot break free of their shackles is advocating for hopelessness.

Its realism.

Wishing for a better world and idealism aren't "unhelpful," and they're not even just "nice". They are essential. It might not be true that if you dream it, you can do it. But it is true that if you don't dream it, you can't do it.

You can't do it period.

Who? The US?

No not the US. The US is already cutting economic ties with china. I'm talking about all the other countries that have VERY close ties to china. They wont give up that gravy train for Taiwan.

If you don't think the US will recognize Taiwan under any circumstances, why do you think that the US should offer Taiwan recognition? It would be nice if you would, as you promised, made things clearer.

Again not talking about the US.

Incidentally, telling a country that they should do something and we will offer protection, otherwise they are on their own, is the definition of "putting pressure" on that country.

The US cannot protect Taiwan unless its a soverign nation. That's just reality. the US can protect them in that instance. Otherwise the US has few moves to protect Taiwan if it insists on being the only real china. That's just reality. Not pressure. At the end its Taiwan's call.

Taiwan's position is that it is China.

These are the old guard from mainland China who escaped to Taiwan and thought they could one day retake mainland.

I personally think Taiwan should pursue independence, so I might agree with you, but it's a matter for the Taiwanese government and — more importantly — the Taiwanese people. 

The current administration is pro independence as opposed to the previous one hence the saber-rattling. In the States, we have red states and blue states. My understanding from what I've read is that blue in Taiwan is the party you mentioned Kuomintang who is for closer ties with China and possibly reunification. Green is the current party that is pro-independence.

so do I. But the idea that anyone can break out of their shackles is pie in the sky.

Exactly. This is about the 800 to 1 billion up and coming middle class market that the US wants access to but has conflicting ideology with the West. Wealth vs Democracy. Corporations couldn't care less what system China has as long as they are raking it in.

These are the old guard from mainland China who escaped to Taiwan and thought they could one day retake mainland.

good point!

he current administration is pro independence as opposed to the previous one hence the saber-rattling. In the States, we have red states and blue states. My understanding from what I've read is that blue in Taiwan is the party you mentioned Kuomintang who is for closer ties with China and possibly reunification. Green is the current party that is pro-independence.

good to know

Exactly. This is about the 800 to 1 billion up and coming middle class market that the US wants access to but has conflicting ideology with the West. Wealth vs Democracy. Corporations couldn't care less what system China has as long as they are raking it in.

agree

No it isn't. we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Its realism.

You can't do it period.

I am sad for your lack of political imagination. I will not allow despair to conquer me.

No not the US. The US is already cutting economic ties with china. I'm talking about all the other countries that have VERY close ties to china. They wont give up that gravy train for Taiwan.

Oh. It's just until now we were talking about the US. And, as I said, it's highly speculative, but if Taiwan declared independence, other countries that have semi-formal ties would, I believe recognise them. I might be wrong.

But I might be right.

The US cannot protect Taiwan unless its a soverign nation. That's just reality. the US can protect them in that instance. Otherwise the US has few moves to protect Taiwan if it insists on being the only real china. That's just reality. Not pressure. At the end its Taiwan's call.

Right, but what you said was that the US should actively approach Taiwan, and tell them that they must declare independence, or... well, nice country. Shame if something were to happen to it.

That's putting pressure on an ally.

I am sad for your lack of political imagination. I will not allow despair to conquer me.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose

No not the US. The US is already cutting economic ties with china. I'm talking about all the other countries that have VERY close ties to china. They wont give up that gravy train for Taiwan.

Oh. It's just until now we were talking about the US. And, as I said, it's highly speculative, but if Taiwan declared independence, other countries that have semi-formal ties would, I believe recognise them. I might be wrong.

But I might be right.

That’s right. You could be wrong you could be right. I personally think you are 100% wrong and like everything else we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree because I don’t think that other countries which rely so much on China are willing to give up the gravy train for ideals

The US cannot protect Taiwan unless its a soverign nation. That's just reality. the US can protect them in that instance. Otherwise the US has few moves to protect Taiwan if it insists on being the only real china. That's just reality. Not pressure. At the end its Taiwan's call.

Right, but what you said was that the US should actively approach Taiwan, and tell them that they must declare independence, or... well, nice country. Shame if something were to happen to it. 

That's putting pressure on an ally.

No it’s not putting political pressure on an ally. It’s dealing with the political reality that is what it is. The United States cannot protect Taiwan if it is not a sovereign nation. So it is up to the time we need to decide what to do. This is not putting pressure on them. It’s just telling them what reality is.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose

I'll take your word for it.

The US should and MUST recognize Taiwan as a fully independent nation with full diplomatic rights. Then, and only then, Japan and other democratic nations will follow suit the day after.

After that, one or two US military bases can be stationed on Taiwan, securing the permanent peace of Taiwan, as has happened in Japan. The Commies simply would not have the guts to mess with Taiwan then.

The ball is in the USAs court.

Fighto

i have to agree 100%

I think the only way to deal with a bully is to stand up to him

Chinese planes flying in Chinese airspace? Whats the problem? None!

Mr Kipling Chinese planes flying in Chinese airspace? Whats the problem? None!

Lots

The U.S. Military had bases in Taiwan until 1979 when they removed them to appease China. The U.S. and Japan both sold out Taiwan 50 years ago, leaders of both the U.S. and Japan rushed to China to have their pictures taken with Chairman Mao. You can mostly thank the U.S. and Japan for China becoming an Economic and Military power.

Taiwan needs nukes.

As part of China, it has nukes that can reach anywhere in the world in less than 7 hours, and with Russian supersonic missiles about two hours.

taiwan is safe.

not any Google search of recent days that discusses Biden telling China to stop this. Just Blinken saying it would be a "mistake" for China to keep doing this. then China showing how much they dont even care what he said and immediately doing it again.

Did you try asking Jeeves?

Fighto!

The US should and MUST recognize Taiwan as a fully independent nation with full diplomatic rights. Then, and only then, Japan and other democratic nations will follow suit the day after.

After that, one or two US military bases can be stationed on Taiwan, securing the permanent peace of Taiwan, as has happened in Japan. The Commies simply would not have the guts to mess with Taiwan then.

The ball is in the USAs court.

.....in the USA court that is now run by the pro-Beijing swamp. Dream on, but nothing of what you suggest will happen, quite the opposite.

Will the Biden regime stand up against the CCP once the blockade of Taiwan starts? I bet against it.