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Britain in Brexit chaos as parliament crushes May's EU deal again

43 Comments
By Elizabeth Piper, Kylie MacLellan and William James

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The original vote was about the theory of Brexit, framed around hopes, wishes and false promises.

A second vote would be about the cold, hard reality of Brexit, where the details, positive and negative, are known.

If the UK had a second referendum and voted to continue onward with Brexit with full knowledge of the consequences, then so be it.

To not have a second referendum, however, seems foolish and disingenuous.

5 ( +13 / -8 )

To not have a second referendum, however, seems foolish and disingenuous.

True. Ironically, precisely because having the first one was foolish and disingenuous.

1 ( +8 / -7 )

"This is it"?

Lots of talking, lots of meetings and in the end ..... nothing gained, but maybe everything lost.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Many fear that Brexit will divide the West as it grapples with both the unconventional U.S. presidency of Donald Trump and growing assertiveness from Russia and China, leaving Britain economically weaker and with its security capabilities depleted.

Which is precisely what Trump and Putin want.

4 ( +9 / -5 )

May never intended to make Brexit work. Her objective was to frustrate, ruin and make it as difficult as possible.

Westminster will never let the UK leave the EU.

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

The European Union said the risk of a damaging no-deal Brexit has "increased significantly" but there would be no more negotiations with London on the divorce terms.

Well that's it then. Its a no deal Brexit. What else is left?

Graham Brady, an influential Conservative lawmaker, said the two most likely scenarios were leaving the EU without a deal "or some kind of endless delay".

I disagree that there will be some kind of endless delay. The EU negociators have already said that there has to be a reason for the delay if they are going to approve it and right now, it isn't clear why the UK would ask for a delay. What's the point of a delay? What would it accomplish? So I think that option is out. The most likely scenario is a no deal brexit or revoking of Article 50, although I think the latter is not very realistic given the political climate now.

I'm guessing the EU will give the UK a hard brexit. I'm guessing they hope one of 2 things will happen:

After a hard brexit, Scotland and N Ireland will leave the UK and join the EU as separate entities or with NI joining the republic as one country. Then England and Wales will come back to the EU because they will have no other choice. OR..

The UK remains intact and in so much pain that they will be forced to make a new request to join the EU, only THIS time the EU will be able to impose more conditions such as joining the Euro and Schengen as well as agreement to ever closer union.

That's what I'm thinking they're banking on.

In my personal opinion the only way out of this mess (and I know this is not popular with many posters here AND I'm beating a dead horse) is a CANZUK union with Canada OZ and NZ. All 3 countries are keen on this agreement with the UK and the conservative party of canada has even officially adopted the CANZUK proposal.

First of all, allow me to say this: I like the idea of a United States of Europe. I think its a great idea and I support ever closer union between the various member states.

The UK democratically elected to leave. We have to respect the results of the referendum in the same way we have to swallow the fact that DT is the POTUS even though many of us may not like it. But that's democracy. The question now becomes what do we moving forward. A trade deal with the EU is looking more and more unlikely, so asides from a CANZUK agreement, at the end of the day, what else is there?

https://www.canzukinternational.com/

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

@Tangerine2000,

Exactlly correct. May and her cohorts are pro EU and are deliberately frustrating the will of the public under the pretense of "trying to find a way".

-6 ( +6 / -12 )

After a hard brexit, Scotland and N Ireland will leave the UK and join the EU as separate entities or with NI joining the republic as one country.

I think it's more likely that NI/6 counties will become part of the Republic. As a separate statelet, that would only be seen as another form of partition, which hasn't gone down too well over the last century.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

I think it's more likely that NI/6 counties will become part of the Republic. As a separate statelet, that would only be seen as another form of partition, which hasn't gone down too well over the last century.

I agree.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

May and her cohorts are pro EU and are deliberately frustrating the will of the public under the pretense of "trying to find a way".

The DUP are not pro EU, though. They are frustrating the will of the Northern Irish public who voted to stay.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

On the contrary, a no-deal Brexit is even less likely now, as you will see tomorrow when MPs vote it down :)

Anyway, at least Rudd got one thing right...

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/11/former-australian-pm-kevin-rudd-calls-brexit-trade-plan-utter-bollocks

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

If the UK won't agree to the terms, AND the EU won't negociate NEW terms, then you will have a no deal brexit. Its not up to the UK alone whether or not to have a hard brexit. Its not even up to the UK alone to delay brexit. BOTH sides have to agree to delay.

The only things the UK can unilaterally do are:

revoke article 50 or agree to the current agreement. Just because the UK doesn't want a hard brexit or votes against it doesn't mean its not going to happen.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

If parliament votes against "no deal" then May should go back to the EU and open negotiations without her "red lines". The only reason she has ended up with a lousy deal is because she painted herself into a corner before the talks even started.

Having said that, I think May is too stubborn to shift her position by even the smallest amount. She is like a broken record and the best thing to do is to throw her out.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

To not have a second referendum, however, seems foolish and disingenuous.

"Hey everyone who voted Leave: remember that? Well guess what? Your vote doesn't count now!"

Modern "democracy" in action, folks.

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

Just leave and get done with it.  If that's what MP's say they want then whatever the final outcome (deal, no deal, bad deal, whatever) just do it.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

@Kaerimashita

The problem is that most MPs want to remain in the EU. They are trying to find a way to do that.

The British people on the other hand, still want to leave.

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

What a flip floppy Government. They never get anything done.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Whatever one thinks of the original vote, its time for the United Kingdom to be independent of the EU. The EU is a bureaucracy controlled by unelected council and is not representative of the will of the people.

If United Kingdom remains, they can stop pretending to be a democracy, and call themselves what they are, a Franco German Colony.

-4 ( +5 / -9 )

What a flip floppy Government

I think it’s more a case of government division and entrenchment rather than being ‘flip floppy’ and opposition parties smelling blood.

I’m a reluctant remainer but it has to be admitted that there is a disconnect between the views of the majority of the public and the MPs who represent them.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Aly Rustom

I'm guessing the EU will give the UK a hard brexit. I'm guessing they hope one of 2 things will happen:

After a hard brexit, Scotland and N Ireland will leave the UK and join the EU as separate entities or with NI joining the republic as one country. Then England and Wales will come back to the EU because they will have no other choice. OR..

> How exactly are Scotland and NI going to leave the United Kingdom while they are part of her Majesty's realm? Remember what happened when someone tried to forcefully take her territory, the Falkland's, it did not end well.

The reality is, UK will not be part of the EU and will not break apart without the London government defending its territorial integrity. What is EU going to do if Britain says Scotland cannot leave? Build a new German Army and take Scotland by force?

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

This really is a demonstration that politicians and the people are miles apart, or as is the case of of the EU itself, bureaucrats rules the people. Democracy as we know it, is dead.

Why can't the polies accept the people wanted to exit? Why can't a deal be made without the Northern Island border issue and then a separate trade deal done between UK/NI later?

There is a groundswell of anti-union, anti-globalisation, anti-commonality etc, yet politicians of the world still pretend they are serving the people. The people of the world knows the benefits only go out to the elites, and the people are the serfs in this new world order that Bush was talking about. The game is up, if the polies don't own up, IMHO, revolution is next.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

May never intended to make Brexit work. Her objective was to frustrate, ruin and make it as difficult as possible.

This comment suggests May has been in control of her fate, which is patently false. May called a unnecessary general election in 2017 that threw away her own majority and left her completely dependent on some the most difficult people in UK politics. She did not put herself in that position by design.

She has staked her reputation on Britain "leaving on March 29" and that she would "deliver Brexit". Both of these statements have been made dozens on times in Parliament. Rather than the current impasse being May's "intention", it is the result of her complete ineptitude.

The logical question that follows then is why did the ruling Conservative not ditch Theresa May when it became clear that she was hopeless. She should have gone when the Tory opposition to the original Chequers plan emerged, nine months ago. This did not happen because with no politically viable alternative leader in the party, the Conservatives chose simply to cling to power. This is regardless of the damage to the UK of a headless chicken government at this crucial time.

This has all been entirely predictable and indeed was predicted by many commentators when May started delaying the votes.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

How exactly are Scotland and NI going to leave the United Kingdom while they are part of her Majesty's realm?

By referendum. Scotland had one once before. They opted to stay. They do have a right to leave the UK if they choose to do so.

Remember what happened when someone tried to forcefully take her territory, the Falkland's, it did not end well.*

That's ridiculous. No one is going to take Scotland or NI away by force. But there is a very good chance of them leaving now.

The reality is, UK will not be part of the EU

that's true

and will not break apart without the London government defending its territorial integrity.

The London government isn't going to do anything. If the Scots and the N Irish decide to leave they will be granted autonomy. The London gov isn't going to stand in their way.

What is EU going to do if Britain says Scotland cannot leave?

You mean What is EU going to do if England says Scotland cannot leave.. Remember the Scots are British too. And England will not be able to tell Scotland it cannot leave any more than it could the last time around. Scotland had a referendum on whether to stay in the UK or not and it was entirely up to Scotland what to do, not England.

Build a new German Army and take Scotland by force?

How silly.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

@Joe

"Hey everyone who voted Leave: remember that? Well guess what? Your vote doesn't count now!"

Modern "democracy" in action, folks.

What? You're not seriously suggesting that "Oh hey, we have new information that might change your opinion. Let's ask the people again" is UNdemocratic? I can't think of a better way to be democratic than to say "Oh we didn't get the deal we promised you, so let's check again if this is what you really want" and have a vote.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Oh we didn't get the deal we promised you, so let's check again if this is what you really want" and have a vote.

The referendum didn't say anything about a deal. If there was any inference, it would be that the people wanted a no deal Brexit. Yes, big corporations will suffer, but I don't think the average Brexit voter cared about a deal.

The politicians are clearly saying we are serving the big end of town, not the people that voted them in.

It's such a no brainer, in the union:

money moves around unimpeded;

goods moves around unimpeded;

regulations pervades over the union; yet

Wages, government services, paying bank interests are somehow demarcated at borders.

See how big corporations are served in the unions whilst what really matters to the people are unconviently cordoned off?

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

The original vote was about the theory of Brexit, framed around hopes, wishes and false promises.

To not have a second referendum, however, seems foolish and disingenuous.

*True. Ironically, precisely because having the first one was foolish and disingenuous.*

Or... Brexit: Why Britain Left the European Union

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLp7LtXmy68

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

mistyped should be - conveniently cordoned off

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

If United Kingdom remains, they can stop pretending to be a democracy, and call themselves what they are, a Franco German Colony.

If you like. You'll have no problem with a 32 county Republic of Ireland if the UK does leave, one hopes.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Lawmakers will now vote at 7 p.m. on Wednesday on whether Britain should quit the world's biggest trading bloc without a deal, a scenario that business leaders warn would bring chaos to markets and supply chains, and other critics say could cause shortages of food and medicines.

Say the anti Brexit business leaders. EU is a crap shoot...get out.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Theresa May has been a total joke as Prime Minister, she has placed all her bets a on a negotiated deal with Europe when she should have been spending time organising deals outside the EU. Britain needs to exit the EU as soon as possible, a free Britain will survive it just needs a leader with vision and a backbone ……… and NO Jeremy Corbyn isn't the leader Britain wants post Brexit.

-4 ( +5 / -9 )

Britain needs to exit the EU as soon as possible, a free Britain will survive it just needs a leader with vision and a backbone ……… and NO Jeremy Corbyn isn't the leader Britain wants post Brexit.

I think that question should be settled by the electorate in a gerneral election. It’s hard to see how this government can see out a full term.

Incidentally, who do you think fits the description of a leader with vision and a backbone?

7 ( +7 / -0 )

She said parliament was now at an impasse: "Does it wish to revoke Article 50 (announcing intention to leave the EU)? Does it want to hold a second referendum? Or does it want to leave with a deal, but not this deal?"

Yes please.

If necessary.

No.

Why can't a deal be made without the Northern Island border issue and then a separate trade deal done between UK/NI later?

How do you reckon that would work, then? NI is a part of the UK. The Republic of Ireland is not. If the UK pulls out of the EU in a no-deal scenario, there must a border between NI(UK) and the Republic (EU), with Immigration, Customs, and all that stuff. It isn't only trade, it's the free movement of people: either you have Immigration control at the NI/Republic border (folk having to show their passport to visit family living in the next street?), or you have a border between NI and the rest of the UK.

Hey everyone who voted Leave: remember that?

Northern Ireland, Scotland and London voted to Remain. They just get ignored?

The vote over the whole UK was a difference of only 4%. Hardly a number you'd want to base such a massive change on.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

No one will vote for a no-deal BREXIT. There is not enough time for another referendum. The only choice will be to revoke their intent to leave. May will make some excuse about needing more time, and pledge to continue the good fight to leave the EU someday. That will keep the fanatics partly satisfied. Then she will step with some nonsensical reason.

Which is precisely what Trump and Putin want.

@Toasted

You mean Putin's plan. A unified EU is stronger than Russia, and that makes it harder for Russia to reclaim those former members of the Soviet Union or manipulate other countries with fear and intimidation.

Remember, Dump is just an idiotic pawn to bring down the US. Putin wants revenge on the West for the fall of the Soviet Union.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

The vote over the whole UK was a difference of only 4%. Hardly a number you'd want to base such a massive change on.

And if it was only .5%? To remain with the majority of voters wanting to leave would be hardly something that should be done.

Remember, Dump ( U.S. President Donald Trump ) is just an idiotic pawn to bring down the US. Putin wants revenge on the West for the fall of the Soviet Union.

So far it's not working, Silva, hehe.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

The vote over the whole UK was a difference of only 4%. Hardly a number you'd want to base such a massive change on.

So what do you do? Just ignore the result? Have referendums until the margin is 5%? 10%? 15%? Abandon democracy? Whats the solution?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@alyrustom

All 3 countries are keen on this agreement with the UK

There's no evidence of that beyond the Canzuk International website's online poll, which was an open-to-anyone vote (think about that for a second) that could be added to over the weeks or months-long period they held it open. Basically a petition, with a fairly underwhelming participation level. And absolutely not representative of actual opinion among the respective populations concerned.

...and the conservative party of canada has even officially adopted the CANZUK proposal.

Considering the 4 countries as all being effectively 2-party systems, that's 1 party out of 8. Again, underwhelming.

You may find that the supposed clamour for "CANZUK" is not quite what it's cracked up to be. In particular, any British assumption coming fresh after the "triumph" of leaving the EU, that its former dominions will meekly line up to join them in a special pact because we're in need of new friends and new trade deals and we're all (wink wink) so alike, could fall on stony ground. Britain's going to have to shed some arrogance and move very carefully in the years to come.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Ho humm, ouch…..... Not subtle.....Ireland, Belgium, and Germany's economic prospects are not particularly rosy.....Also assume that from the 29th all bets are off where contributions are concerned.....

Check temporary rates of customs duty on imports after EU Exit …....

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-temporary-rates-of-customs-duty-on-imports-after-eu-exit

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

So the odds on an A50 extension?....

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Cleo,

Yo wasting yer time; some people just don't understand how devastating Brexit will be; and especially when there's no cake to be eaten!!!

I, quite perversely "wish" that the hardest Brexit comes to pass. So that all these idiots clamoring for a no-deal can get their comeuponce.

Unfortunately, all of us will get it in the neck, all because a lot of totally clueless folks were given a say on such a complex issue; just like Aikidokas saying that Aikido is useless on the streets; sadly there's tons of these "experts" out there!!!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

No one is going to take Scotland or NI away by force.

When it comes to the latter, it may be taken back but hopefully not by violent means.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I, quite perversely "wish" that the hardest Brexit comes to pass. So that all these idiots clamoring for a no-deal can get their comeuponce.

Yes like when we idiots were against joining the Euro and were told London would disintegrate as a financial centre.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

all because a lot of totally clueless folks were given a say on such a complex issue

While the UK doesn't have a written constitution, a change as huge as leaving the EU deserved to be treated as a constitutional amendment. In other countries that would involve securing a two-thirds or three-quarters parliamentary majority in favour before the matter could be put to a popular vote. And what should have been put to the popular vote was a clear, well-laid out proposal, not a choice between 'In' (=things stay the same) and 'Out' (=Gawd only knows what happens next, could be anything).

As we have seen, most politicians are against the UK leaving the EU; their job is to serve the people by looking after the best interests of the country, but 'honouring' the Brexit vote means acting in a way that is not in the best interests of the country.

The referendum should never have taken place until and unless the politicians who would have to pull it off had some kind of consensus that leaving would be both possible and beneficial. Cameron is/was a total fool.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

What British MPs want?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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