Armed deputy at Florida high school resigns after failing to engage shooter

So even having an armed professional there had no effect on the shooting because, as should be obvious, nobody wants to go toe to toe with a deranged killer armed to the teeth.

But by all means yes, lets make arming teachers the main policy response to this, that wil totally solve the problem.

Here lies the problem of the 'arming teachers' solution.

It's easy to say 'arm them and send them for training', but if the worst case scenario ever happens you are expecting a teacher to overcome the psychological barrier of killing a kid - quite possibly a kid they know.

Hey Blacky, if you want to run down the 'what if' rabbit hole, imagine the narrative if teenage Nikolas Cruz had been unable to legally purchase weapons of war, and had to go back to playing separatist militia with a slingshot. Seventeen lives saved, but some gun shop earned 5% less profit for the week. Is that not a better alternative reality than the shyte that actually happened?

This is the problem with so many guns. He couldn't have known how many shooters there were, where they were, who they were, etc. What if he accidentally killed an innocent? What if he killed the shooter but was then mistaken as the shooter by the police when they arrived and subsequently killed? What if he mistook an armed teacher as the killer and killed them?

Right. So that effectively closes the 'guns and police in schools' argument. What's the next idea?

What a weird country, drink driving a no no, hording military grade weapons OK.

What I like about Japan is you can have an open beer in the park or street, but in most places in the US it is not allowed. But it many places in the US you are allowed to walk around with your military grade weapon..

So even having an armed professional there had no effect on the shooting because, as should be obvious, nobody wants to go toe to toe with a deranged killer armed to the teeth.

Yeah, they can't count on police officers to protect them. So who will?

If only all the world's problems could be solved by guns, eh?

I wonder what our brave men (and it is mostly men) here would do if they were in this guy's shoes?

liberals have such low expectations of the actions of others

Actually, I have low expectations of humans.

Conservatives are easier than everyday humans, just expect hypocrisy and lately the inability to distinguish fact from fantasy.

One thing I didn't expect from conservatives is that they would align themselves behind the likes of Trump and now Russia. Guess the candidate pool was getting low on both sides.

Most armed security officers only have a revolver as a weapon, doesn't quiet stack up to a full auto rifle, unless you can sneak up behind the shooter you really will just be apart of the body count.

Right back at you (from June 2016):

The Senate voted 47 to 53 to reject a measure from Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) to let the attorney general deny firearms and explosives to any suspected terrorists. 

The Senate also rejected a Republican alternative from Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas), that would allow authorities to delay a gun sale to a terrorism suspect for three days or longer if a judge ruled during that time that there is probable cause to deny the firearm outright. 

The Senate also rejected, on a 44 to 56 vote, a measure from Sens. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.), Cory Booker (D-N.J.) and Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) that would expand background checks for anyone trying to purchase a firearm, including at a gun show or online.

Democrats also objected to Grassley’s amendment they said it could give people involuntarily committed to a psychiatric institution for a mental illness the right to buy a gun once they are released.

Fact of the matter, the GoP wanted to force legislation that wouldn't work.

Oh and btw SIX armed deputies are guarding the home of the deputy who stayed outside as people died.

He had a pistol, maniac an assault rifle, who in there right mind would run into an unknown situation. We are all heroes until bullets fly. This proposterous idea that more guns in schools is a solution. How about less guns? In society. Definatly no assault rifles. What a weird country, drink driving a no no, hording military grade weapons OK.

 In fact, I and many others used to be on "your side" prior to 2016 election, so there is that too.

I'm not on any "side."

I swore oaths to the constitution several times. I tend to side with rationality.

So even good guys with a gun are too scared to act in the face of an AR 15. Can we ban assault weapons now?

I don't blame the cop. But it does put the lie to the idea about arming teachers in schools. Here was a trained officer who decided he did not want to risk his life. Imagine a teacher with substantially less training, no equipment and no backup.

Cruz legally owned the guns.

He shouldn't have had them legally is the point. Records show that social workers, mental health counselors and school administrators over and over documented and dismissed red flags during home visits and school evaluations. If only the school had pressed charges against Cruz for bringing bullets onto campus, or if he had been involuntarily confined for self-mutilation, if his his mother had not lied to officers about the fact that he had guns at all. Or even if the legal age of buying a rifle were raised. There are a million points that could have prevented this from happening.

LizzToday 03:42 am JST

If he wasn't up to it he should have quit or sought reassignment elsewhere.

I can't imagine this is the entire story. He should at least have shot randomly in the air to distract the shooter.

There are no articles that suggest the deputy even saw the shooter and vice-versa. He was on site within 90 seconds of the first gunshots and lingered outside taking cover for 4 minutes. The shooters actions took all of 6 minutes. NOBODY is who trained to carry a firearm "shoots randomly in the air" when they are not even within visual contact with the shooter and has no situational assessment. This may not be the "entire story" but looking at the timeframe the deputy clearly took no action during the crucial first minutes, and the fact that he resigned prior to suspension and the results of an investigation strongly indicates that the deputy knew what his protocol was and he failed to act appropriately.

Who knows what was going through his mind at the time. How about he was more concerned about hitting a student, which is cynically called 'friendly fire' or 'collateral damage'.

This should be used as an example of why having more guns is NOT the answer. No one can say for certain how they might react to a situation like this. Or the hundreds of other mass shootings that are coming to define the US.

But now the NRA and the rightists have a new scapegoat (to deflect from its serious gun problems) to add to the FBI and the 'elites'. The 'otherguy' defense. The default defense for Trump, the GOP and the NRA.

I don't blame this guy for not being able to 'kill the killer'. But it does show the fallacy of the argument that teachers should be armed. An armed policeman, who was at the school, was unable to stop the shooter. And they expect teachers to do so? Ridiculous.

The people who strap on military grade weapons to enter a coffee shop or stroll around the farmers market (both real examples from small town USA) are most likely trying to stir up trouble to promote an agenda. It's not like they are needed to stop deadly assaults by zucchini, melon, or tomato.

As for this story, on a campus with 3000 students (compare to a midsize college campus), I don't know what can realistically be expected of the one onsite police officer in just six minutes. What is the average time is needed to get across such a large campus? Many minutes would be my guess.

what many fail to realize shooters will always kill multiple people before reinforcements arrive, many go into these massacres not expecting to live or to take their own lives. There hasnt been a massacre yet that has been stopped before hes killed multiple people

If only all the gun supporting commenters on JT had been there, I'm sure you all would have swung in on a rope, crashed through a window, taken the gunman out in a hail of bullets that all cleanly hit his center of body mass, then gotten on your horses with a tip of your hat and rode off into the sunset, refusing the accolades everyone attempted to bestow upon you due to your modest dignity.

Because that is exactly how these things always go down in a country full of people armed to the teeth, ready to fight injustice. And it undoubtedly explains why these mass shootings are so rare in America while they are an almost daily occurrence in countries like Japan where nobody has guns.

@blackl Liberal solution: Take the guns away from everyone who has done nothing wrong.

I actually have heard some people say that.

Or are you saying everyone who disagrees with you (i.e. 'liberals') has that same perspective? The English language has many words that can be used to clarify points of view.

Or is your intent just to add more fuel to the fire to further fragment an already fragmented country.

And if you're as angry as you seem to be, I hope you don't have weapons on hand.

So a deputy should have "die hard" training ?

As said already, engaging without knowing anything of the situation and no backup is heroic craziness that you see only in US movies.

In all European countries countries at least, only Swat teams can do the job in a reasonable manner.

Only particular times you should engage when it is about kill or be killed, refer to last Clint Eastwood movie (the 15h17 to Paris)

Air marshals do not have to go up against an assault rifle, armed only with a pistol.

I remember well an incident from over 30 years ago. I was in a job where I interacted every day with sheriff's deputies and California Highway Patrol officers. I heard that there had been an armed robbery at a supermarket early in the morning. The three perpetrators were armed with assault rifles. When I got a chance, I asked the law enforcement officers how they dealt with the situation. They all told me the same thing, that they had refused to try to stop the armed robbers. Armed only with pistols, it would have been suicide to go up against several people armed with assault rifles. As it turned out, no one was injured or killed, and the perps got away, at least for awhile.

The difference between the incident that I remember from decades ago and the recent mass murder at the high school in Florida is that there was only one perpetrator this time, and the perp was intent on murdering students and teachers, not on robbing a store. Given that people's lives were being lost, the heroic thing to do would indeed have been for the 30 year veteran of the sheriff's department, presumably trained in the use of a pistol, to attempt to save the lives of other people. His chances of surviving may have been minimal, but one hopes that those who serve in law enforcement truly care about the lives of those they serve.

Look at large schools as a microcosm of a city. I'd guess the ratio of police to civilians is closer to 1:1000 in incorporated towns. But in this school, with a potentially greater need than a regular resort town of retired snowbirds, the ratio is 1:3000. If Trump and the NRA are serious about tripling security at all schools across the country in order to make them as safe as small towns, money will need to start flowing in from somewhere. Were those recent tax cuts permanent by any chance?

Went in, addressed the killer, killed the killer."

Or, become victim #18. It’s very easy for people to say he didn’t do his job. However, a sole person busting into a school with his gun blazing without any real knowledge of who or where the gunman was or how many there were is tantamount to suicide.

think of the change in narrative if the armed guard had acted?

"An armed guard with a handgun was at the school, and ran to intervene, but was shot and killed by the shooter who was carrying an AR-15. Death toll, 18"

@rainy day 4 years in the army and you would have been killed by a part time junior ROTC cadet? All I can say is I’m glad you quit the army before your lack of effort/skill got someone killed. No disrespect but come on....

I didn't say I would be killed, but that I wouldn't be able to save the students. They don't teach you in the army ( or the police for that matter) to just go running into a building guns blazing against an adversary who is better armed than you.

If you had ever served of course you would know that.

Or are you saying everyone who disagrees with you (i.e. 'liberals') has that same perspective? The English language has many words that can be used to clarify points of view.

Conservatives are even trying to demonize Democrats further by saying they aren't your normal everyday liberal, they are now a European style of Socialists.

Conservatives, grab a hold of your amygdala your going another ride with fear beating out facts.

so let’s simply put the blame where it belongs... and fix it, no?

We've been doing that - but you guys say the law must not be changed, and everyone needs to be allowed their guns.

incremental gun control measures

Ha ha ha! "The Federalist" discusses "incremental gun control measures" - just let me guess: are they discussing colour schemes?

temporarily removing access to guns from an individual that is flagged by their own relatives calling the police and asking for it?

A few states do have gun restraining orders which empowers family members and police to take firearms away from a person who may pose a danger to themselves or others, which would have prevented this tragedy as well as Sandy Hook, Charleston and Orlando etc. Although in this case it was the host family that took Cruz in after the death of his mother who refused to prosecute for gun violence in the home. A misdemeanor domestic violence conviction, or even restraining order, would have been an automatic disqualification on the federal background check.

blacklabel: temporarily removing access to guns from an individual that is flagged by their own relatives calling the police and asking for it? Of course.

I can't tell if you are serious or not. You would accept this as a reason to ban possession of a gun for an individual?

And there we have it.

Failure of the FBI who sat on red flag info.

Failure of the Sherriffs office who ignored 50 incidents over the years regarding Cruz.

Failure of the deputy who stayed outside the building, ignoring the most important job he was assigned to do.

Sheriffs deputies assigned to the school are the ones in trouble by the local police force for not confronting the shooter.

Yeah, the right is up in arms (pun intended) about the guy at the school not validating their claim that the only thing needed to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

Here's a handgun with maybe 15 rounds. Now go engage that guy with the "shorty" AR and at least 30 rounds, if not 100. If you hesitate, we will all judge you a coward that failed at the most critical juncture of you life.

@wtf, impossible to prove your statement, unless you can conjure up a victimless massacre. Unless this is deep philosophy and you meant massacres on a rhetorical or theoretical level.

@blackl liberals have such low expectations of the actions of others

I don't know what you mean by 'liberals', but as someone who continually uses us-them language, constantly tries to divide the US into your camp vs any other, I'm going to assume you consider yourself a non-liberal (whatever that means).

How can you say with even the slightest degree of confidence what a person who fits your non-liberal profile would have done were they a guard at a massacre. Navy SEALS and Green Berets have been killed by 'friendly fire'. (The football player Tillman for example)

Why do US rightists who have always denigrated US government agencies, calling them inefficient and wasteful, now expect a large organization (led by Republicans) to function like an Olympic speed skating pursuit team?

Why is it that evangelicals, US ultrarightists and Russians try to keep dividing Americans into us-them camps.

@blackL But liberals won’t have that because they want to push the stigma that veterans are all mentally ill that’s why they didn’t choose a “real” job in the first place.

Making more over-simplified over-generalizations ends up further weakening your position.

The purpose of armed guards

Is multi-fold. How can you know what this guard was instructed to do? Do you seriously believe armed guards are told to give up their lives in all circumstances? Stop over-generalizing.

Fact

The NRA and conservatives will not allow any new laws that would have prevented Cruz from owning the weapons. They will only allow laws that expand gun ownership.

He shouldn't have had them legally is the point.

Exactly. The idea that the populace should be allowed to arm itself is ridiculous.

The question becomes what could have been done had people listened to the warnings. Will gun supporters accept removing guns based on red flags?

There are warnings and there are crimes of threatening students with assault and then there are minor, Non-violent misdemeanors. Red flags were flying on all these fronts. The Broward County School Board simply has an official policy requiring that they don’t tell the police about non-violent incidents with troubled youth.

"But by all means yes, lets make arming teachers the main policy response to this, that wil totally solve the problem."

No, we also need to weed out the psychos walking our streets.

A gun ban based on red flags? Of course not!

temporarily removing access to guns from an individual that is flagged by their own relatives calling the police and asking for it? Of course. That’s your “common sense” gun control you been looking for.

Forgive me for getting back on topic, but this deputy most certainly failed to act in accordance with proper protocol. Until Columbine, the standard protocol was to wait until back up (ie; SWAT team) arrived. However based on studies showing that most of the fatalities occur in the first 5 minutes of the event, the protocol was changed. A LEO is suppose to go in ad challenge the shooter. As a Resource Officer at the school he should well have known this. If he wasn't up to it he should have quit or sought reassignment elsewhere.

Not based solely on the families wishes. Judges should have the power to restrain dangerous gun owners from the guns only after a hearing. That means admissible evidence — sworn statements, pictures of text messages, Instagram photos — combined with a due process opportunity of the accused to contest the charges.

Dispatch tapes, training records, training descriptions, and policies are all available by document discovery but it is impossible to know at the stage the extent of communication between the resource officer on the ground and the rest of the force. The Sheriff's Department made mistakes on scene also so it could be a cover up on either side.

All these failures in the system are causing a failure to address the fact that the system is a failure.

Even after a mass shooting, the argument in the US isn’t even ‘should we ban guns?’ Instead they’re having troubles even banning bump stocks.

How many days until the next shooting? Because they are doing nothing to prevent/stop it.

Law enforcement officers are not being accused of murder or even negligent homicide. Sheriffs deputies assigned to the school are the ones in trouble by the local police force for not confronting the shooter. The faster response may have saved a few kids but would not have prevented Cruz most likely from slaughtering a number of students. I'm not sure where I ever indicated anything except such.

Sources: Coral Springs police upset at some [3 more] Broward deputies for not entering school

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/sources-coral-springs-police-upset-at-some-broward-deputies-for-not-entering-school/ar-BBJvA3b?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

Whether the officer should have engaged the shooter or not is one debate.

But as a former highschool student in the US, I do remember when the ‘resource officers’ were assigned to schools to deal with any measure of criminal activity from outside or inside influences. It goes beyond but includes preventing violent acts by students or non-students.

There must be some data insights into the effectiveness of this policy as a whole. It certainly has parralels to the air marshall policies introduced after 9/11.

The so-called "bump stock" only requires a reclassification by the BATFE.

Great, so lets get that done.

Las Vegas? The BATFE, during the Obama administration at the same time they were involved in illegal gun sales, and illegal gun transportation into Mexico (aka operation Fast and Furious), was asked to evaluate the "bump stock" for classification and sale to the public. In spite of the BATFE's own rule of one round fired for each pull of the trigger, the BATFE decided that the "bump stock" would allow a handicapped person to empty the magazine with a continuous pull of the trigger. Therefore the "bump stock" was allowed to be sold.

Did the BATFE pull the trigger in Las Vegas? No, they did not. Who did commit mass murder in Las Vegas? A psychopath who made the decision to commit mass murder, that's who.

I suppose Trump may be on the right idea, it just hasn't been pushed far enough.

They should put walls and barbwire around the school, and have an armed presence at all entrances and exits, with security being like an airport - body scans and xrays of all carried items.

It would cost quite a bit of tax money though. How will they decide whether it's more important to protect the children, or to give more tax cuts to the rich?

think of the change in narrative if the armed guard had acted? 

"Hero armed guard neutralizes attempted school shooter, saving the lives of 3000 students and teachers". Wow, having armed guards at schools is awesome, good thing there was someone there to save our children! (not that liberals would ever admit that, they would have just totally ignored and it would have been on news for like 1 min story). 

But just because he didnt act, we get the entire opposite gun control narrative. Guns arent necessary, guns never save lives, blah blah.

Funny how the narratives go against your view in a huge majority of cases. I wonder why that is. TorafusuTorasan said it so well.

I wouldnt be able to do that at my age. But I would assume that a person who pursued and accepted a career that involves being an armed guard at a school would have that ability.

But when you were young you would have done all that? Impressive.

I spent 4 years in the army, I know how to use a variety of firearms. I don't consider myself a coward but can confidently say that if I had been in that deputy's shoes I probably wouldn't have been able to save anybody either.

Its ridiculous to argue that somebody whose day to day job mainly consists of breaking up school yard fights and busting kids for smoking is suddenly, with about 90 seconds notice, going to become Rambo and take down a homicidal maniac armed with an AR-15.

If he had done that it would have been a miracle and he would be a hero. Should he have done more? Maybe, I don't know all the facts yet. Is it even remotely sensible to expect this of armed guards or teachers and base gun policy entirely around that? Not in a million years.

Unemployed military veterans are standing by to take these jobs to protect our children at the cost of their own lives.

But liberals won’t have that because they want to push the stigma that veterans are all mentally ill that’s why they didn’t choose a “real” job in the first place.

It does not matter how many shooters there could have been. When you are a sworn officer of the law your job is to serve and protect--its not just a security guard job!

Unless the person is a decorated, scarred and tested combat veteran, it's hard to guess how regular people are going to react for the first time to bullets flying all over the place. However, it is too bad that this armed deputy wasn't more heroic and didn't do what he was hired and trained(?) to do.

Fight or flight.

But just because he didnt act, we get 

one of the potential outcomes.

You deal with what you got. In this case, we got 17 dead and a bunch more wounded, plus a lot more traumatized.

Stop avoiding facts.

Liberal excuse: But Cruz hadnt done anything wrong yet! we couldnt take his semi automatic gun, no one is the "thought police", you dotard!

Correct, except it is not an excuse.

it is called the 4th amendment right to unreasonable searches and seizures without probable cause.

Conservative excuse: Cruz has a 2nd amendment right to own a war machine made to kill people in mass because technically it is a gun and we have to make a stand against liberal elitists.

That excuse got people killed in greater numbers.

Why avoid the 4th amendment and stick to the 2nd?

One guesses filling vacant positions of "school resource officer" will be next to impossible going forward.

The sheriff seems a straight up guy, I liked the way he shot down the NRA woman with words in the debate with the kids.

But I like that this titbit of information was held back until that disgrace of a human being Wayne le Pierre broke his silence. And Trump. They look like proper fools now to all not dwelling in the Bubble.

I hope that this movement gathers pace and that common sense finally prevails instead of more insane talking points from the insane NRA and their enabler in the Whitehouse as people are being massacred. Shame the dirty politicians like Trump and sweaty little Marco who's campaigns are drunk on NRA money.

Oh and btw SIX armed deputies are guarding the home of the deputy who stayed outside as people died.

Thanks for providing yet another example of gun crazy America. I live in Japan and will stay here.

Those Americans who identify as 'conservatives' and want to own weapons that quickly fire multiple rounds own all future massacres.

How do conservatives plan to pay for the costs related to gun slaughters? I forgot; they're now the people who say print money and spend it. Let future generations pay.

Maybe US conservatives can get their Russian friends to chip in. At this point I see very few differences between US 'conservatives' and Russian 'conservatives'.

The sheriff's deputy resigned and retired, rather than be suspended. The fact that he's eligible for retirement hints that he's of advanced age and may have been years since his last active engagement experience. He also had commendations as a school resource officer, so he's quite knowledgeable.

So then, it seems he simply froze.

With even less experience and knowledge than a sheriff's deputy, how would armed teachers had handled this

Exactly. The idea that the populace should be allowed to arm itself is ridiculous.

I can’t be armed because “there are armed police to protect you! It’s their job not yours!” scream liberals.

Then Police don’t protect us and we die. Liberals: well your expectations of being protected are just too high, what did you expect the deputy to do, he only had a handgun, he’s retirement age, etc.

"...you can’t control or reason with a bad person. It’s why you are stuck with prevention (pre crime) and punishment (post crime) as your only options..."

So, what say Americans about their current POTUS?

"...Bad people are only prevented from following their nature by authority often in the form of some type of guard..."

That was supposed to be Congress and the Supreme Court, among other "guardians", but as of late, they don't seem to be as effective as ideally hoped.

Would metal detectors at the school have helped? That way, the gun-loving crowd doesn't get their feelings hurt.

How old was the Deputy? If he is stationed at a highschool, can we assume he is around retirement age?

Have any of the commenters here, excluding those with first-hand experience in the military, ever stood on the wrong side of a person holding a loaded firearm to know what it's like? I suspect for most people, lengthy debate goes right out the window. Admittedly, there are those rare instances, as seen on YT vids, where gas station attendants will stand their ground and manage to repel an assailant. But even then, there's not much debating and a lot of wild-gunman trigger pulling. Not something you want to happen in a school building.

Metal detectors might be easier, if the Americans absolutely, postively must have their firearms.

@lizz 'm not saying anyone

And by 'not saying' I think you're deflecting.

Use your own KISS or Occam's Razor, say it was something vague like improper policing, mental health.

My KISS and Occam's Razor: A murderer with a legally purchased gun slaughtered innocents. Which is consistent with every shooting I've ever heard of. A person with a gun shot someone. Start from there.

@lizz The faster response may have saved a few kids 

As would have the shooter not having a legally purchased semi-automatic weapon.

I'll stick with my contention: the blood is on the hands of the NRA and all their supporters.

The gun community who won't back down: you own all future massacres.

I sincerely hope no one you know has a gun used on them.

One thing that every one has missed out on, is this cop has now retired/resigned, can you imagine, he will be sitting at home in the morning drinking his coffee, thinking could i have done more to protect those children? ( I think the answer to that question is yes) this will toucher him for the rest of his life, the "what if" question will, and should run through his brain every day. The killing/shooting of children is a very emotive subject, I wonder what backlash this cop is going to get from his local neighbourhood.

Question, how many of you guys have been in a firefight? Good guess would be NONE!

Cop most likely had a Glock 23 .40 S&W on his hip, and two spare magazines carrying 13 rounds each ... Fully trained marksman with a pistol can take down someone at 100 meters, but that is only in perfect conditions, and the subject is not moving, there is no wind, humidity is perfect etc., etc., etc., but some copper is pushing it at 30 meters and that is being generous, christ a NSW copper last year missed hitting a guy who was 5 meters away from her and ended up hitting 3 bystanders, so cops are pretty bad shots.

Now you have a guy with a AR-15 which by the way is LEGAL in Australia, but you have to jump thought hoops to get one, a guy with a AR-15 vs a cop with a Glock ... Good chance the cop would have come off second best and would have most likely hit a few students in the firefight. Now if the copper had on a ballistic vest, then yes he could have engaged the target and he may or mayn't have stop further blood shed, but if he did not then it would have been a suicide mission on his part, unless he was a marksman and trained by either police SF or military SF.

Given the urgency of the situation, I would like to think that the officer in question could have done better. Perhaps, after calling it in, he could have distracted the gunman, while trying to stay behind cover himself, as much as possible. If he could have gotten eyes on the gunman, and made it obvious that he was armed and a threat to the gunman, it would have at least taken away some of the gunman's freedom of movement. Maybe he could have even gotten a lucky shot in. Since he didn't try, we will never know what he might have accomplished.

Or, he could do as our glorious leader did during Vietnam, and claim that he is physically or mentally incapacitated. Seems like the height of hypocrisy for a draft dodger to call other people a coward.

I am no gun expert, but my understanding is that the AR-15 is not an assault rifle and is not military grade, unlike what several above posts state.

Clearly we cannot count on police officers or sheriff's deputies to protect the kids and teachers in school.

No law will succeed in magically making all guns disappear. In fact, they will disproportionately remove guns from good law-abiding citizens and have very little effect on criminals and psychotics.

I imagine that when they talk about arming teachers, they don't mean simply handing out guns to all the teachers, but rather allowing those teachers who are willing to undergo the training to, after completion of the training and passing certain tests, be allowed to go to school armed.

Peterson is “guilty” of negligent homicide for failure to act as a first responder LEO to a live shooter scene, which was his DUTY to do so. To Protect and Serve is more than a motto of law enforcement, it’s a call-to-action mandate you swear to when taking your oath of office. Sheriff Israel had no previous knowledge that one of his senior officers would fail to preform his sworn duties intil this incident occurred, therefore to call for his ignition resignation is a little premature pending a full investigation. Gun Control - Mental Health, that is the question. With the vast amounts of Firearms available WORLDWIDE “gun control” like “illegal drug control” would be an impossibility for ANY NATION to control in the century due to joint cooperation for each and if in doubt, just take a look at what’s going on around the world today!

zichi - I think your real question should be how can anyone buy a deadly weapon with no or little background checks.

My real question still is - Why didn't authorities properly deal with this psychopath in the YEARS leading up to the psychopath finally making his decision to commit mass murder. They certainly had plenty of chances.

Why didn't any of the people who repeatedly interacted with this psychopath over the years make sure that this psychopath had a criminal record, or mental health record, that would have raised yet another red flag that would not have allowed this psychopath to pass a background check.

What will the NRA/GoP say about this obvious kink in their rhetoric?

Focus on the killer being a madman that the elite liberals failed to stop?

Call the officer a yellow bellied coward or disgrace? What...

He was there to protect the students. He did not. What a disgrace.

The talking points are already flying.

The guy was a trained police officer.

He was trained to take cover, report what was happening, call for backup, then move in, staying behind cover.

Shoot the person who isn't a teacher, pointing a gun at anyone else. This guy works at the school and KNOWS who the teachers are. It isn't like he's a cop that isn't showing up there daily, seeing the same kids.

Shameful.

South Florida police seem to have AR-15s in their vehicles. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/12/07/man-steals-assault-rifle-unlocked-police-car/930743001/

Yet I did “serve”. So there is that. The purpose of armed guards is not to be just one more victim. Or to stand outside calling people on the phone. Unarmed Kids and teachers inside waiting to get shot were handling that part.

Yet I did “serve”. So there is that. The purpose of armed guards is not to be just one more victim. Or to stand outside calling people on the phone. Unarmed Kids and teachers inside waiting to get shot were handling that part.

Oh you served? In which part of your military training did they teach you that the correct response in a situation like that would be to go in with guns blazing? I wasn't special forces or anything like you apparently were because they never taught us anything like that.

The purpose of a school guard isn't to literally be combat ready at all times for crying out loud. If that is the policy then its already a failed one.

Um, are you trying to pretend you guys are ok with changing the laws?

That is irrelevant when you dont even try. What part of Senate Democrats "decided it would be better for their reelection prospects" not to did you not read?

Its going to be hilarious when the orange dotard is the one that gives you common sense gun control, border security, energy independence, economic growth and citizenship for illegals. Everything you always wanted, but given to you by Trump. Wont stop you guys from still trying to impeach him or jail him after you get it all, cause thats what you do. But still......

Um, are you trying to pretend you guys are ok with changing the laws

I counter your spin with this reality: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/18/obama-condemns-senate-gun-reform

Ha ha ha! "The Federalist" discusses "incremental gun control measures" - just let me guess: are they discussing colour schemes?

well because this is historical fact that none of the 4 gun control measures passed. Including 2 from RepubIicans that did allow for incremental measures to be taken if it would have passed.

I can give you CBS, NBC, CNBC, CNN, WaPo, NY Times if you dont like my source. Anything you like they all say the same facts. But Im sure your Google search works just as well as mine.

This is the news story that you didn't read:

School guard hailed as hero dies trying to save students

The NRA calls on sheriff deputies to be armed with AR15 semi-automatic rifles rather than revolvers, citing the mismatch in weaponry as being responsible for the sheriff's death, who was tragically unable to prevent the massacre continuing etc

And more recent, last week:

“That’s a piece of legislation we passed that’s sitting in the Senate,” Ryan said.

What the speaker did not mention was why the bill hasn’t passed the Senate, or why only six Democrats voted for it in the House: In addition to the modest changes to background checks, the legislation secured for the National Rifle Association its top federal priority—a provision treating concealed-carry permits essentially as driver’s licenses that would override the stricter regulations of individual states.

good story except they already have AR15s and are NOW patrolling with them. Didnt even need to have the NRA tell them they need to.

Broward sheriff's deputies will carry rifles, including AR-15s, to guard schools

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-florida-school-shooting-broward-sheriff-20180221-story.html

while ignoring the FBI and local police role 

So, blaming the FBI and local police does work?

Don't blame the laws that allowed the weapon, but blame those you think should violate the law to prevent him from shooting up the place. All after the fact.

There was no probable cause to take the guns away from him. He legally owned the guns, and the NRA and you would have been screaming about his rights to own the guns.

The FBI could have tried to talk to him, but only if he voluntarily decided to answer.

No, under the current laws, we have the same result.

So, the Gop's (NRAs) idea's are:

1) more guns and

2) more powerful guns

Cruz legally owned the guns. All the procedure changes in the world would not have done anything if Cruz didn't do something voluntarily.

Oliver Windell Holmes famously wrote along the lines that laws must be written to stop the bad man from acting or the laws are basically worthless.

Answer this question, what laws would prevent Cruz from being the bad man?

you can’t control or reason with a bad person. It’s why you are stuck with prevention (pre crime) and punishment (post crime) as your only options.

Bad people are only prevented from following their nature by authority often in the form of some type of guard. Those people prevent you from entering places without a ticket. Bad people would otherwise simply not pay, right?

there are already laws and policies about guns and their misuse but bad people don’t and never will follow those.

claimed one bad guy with an assault weapon needs another good guy with a gun to take them out. yet how does a good guy know when/ where the next bad guy is going to open fire on a group of people? I suppose theyll need to hire Tom Cruise and his pre-crime team to catch them before they start the shooting spree.

a psycho with an automatic weapon

He wasn’t a “psycho” and the weapon wasn’t automatic.

Why is it that people jump to the conclusion that a shooter is crazy? The behavior is irregular or unusual, but not necessarily crazy. I find that more worrisome as the next shooter probably passes unnoticed now.

Records show that social workers, mental health counselors and school administrators over and over documented and dismissed red flags during home visits and school evaluations.

What would have prevented the Las Vegas shooting? All that stuff mentioned is too complicated. Much easier to regulate the gun or outlaw it. It's too much work for the government and costly to taxpayers.

Liz: Records show that social workers, mental health counselors and school administrators over and over documented and dismissed red flags during home visits and school evaluations.

The question becomes what could have been done had people listened to the warnings. Will gun supporters accept removing guns based on red flags?

We are talking about a group who defended the rights of people to buy guns who are on the no fly list. In some states they passed legislation banning doctors from even asking if their patient owns a gun.

This is the same group that will accept a gun ban based on red flags?

US has a cultural problem that it is unwilling to address - that of condoning and enabling violence for the slightest provocations.

Too many Americans think it is their right to react to any perceived threat with overwhelming violence. The result is 'stand your ground' laws giving American citizens in many states the right to shoot anyone for the most trivial reason and walk away without facing criminal charges.

This high tolerance for violence and easy access to guns in US, creates an environment where children are desensitized to gun violence and while often parroting the gun fanaticism of their parents.

The right fringe always regurgitates the NRA talking points and demonizes the rational and reasonable thinkers.

There are no logical reasons for the general population of a first-world country to have assault weapons. That’s the first truth the gun fringe people can’t justify.

Told you so.... before it was even announced.

All these failures in the system are causing a failure to address the fact that the system is a failure.

So much this. Everyone is talking about all the different points of failure... and when even one of these can cause a disaster it just proves there are far too many areas where the system lets everyone down. What you've got in America is a system that simply does not work. Change it or lose many more lives.

@lizz  The Sheriff's Department made mistakes on scene also so it could be a cover up on either side.

So as an attorney (for the NRA? Republican Party), are you pushing for an 'otherguy' defense? Saying even though the murderer himself pulled the trigger on his legally purchased gun, used a semi-automatic weapon to slaughter innocent people, it was someone else's (the FBI, the Sheriff, the cop on site) fault?

Or perhaps it was the lack of proper mental health care? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the NRA objected to measures that would limit people with mental problems (as well as those on terrorist watchlists) from purchasing guns.

I'm not saying anyone but the murderer is to blame but simply that we don't know who said what between the officer on the ground and the back up First Responder force.

The "resource officer" is a daily worker at the school. He'd been working at this school since 2009.

To to people saying he couldn't do anything? WRONG! If you are being shot at by someone else, it gets your attention quickly. Cruz probably would have STOPPED shooting at kids and at least look for the other guy with a gun. He would have been distracted for a few minutes, if the trained policeman didn't actually hit him with a bullet, ending the event completely.

And whoever seems to think that you can't have an open beer most places in the USA is wrong. The USA is huge with 97% of the country "rural" - not cities. Many cities, especially the smaller ones don't have anti-beer laws. It is the larger ones that do most often. A few national and state parks don't allow alcohol either, but if you are calm and discrete about it, having a beer (or tequila shot) at your campsite has never been an issue. So ... let's say that 90% of the USA doesn't have an issue with open beer.

A good guy with a gun would have stopped him. Unfortunately, we had a save-my-a$$ guy posted there instead.

Lots of false information in the posts here.

Why didn't authorities properly deal with this psychopath in the YEARS leading up to the psychopath finally making his decision to commit mass murder.

Because they're overseeing 360 million people.

Some will always slip through the cracks. Always, no matter how good the system gets. The goal is to create a system where less people fall through the cracks. This however requires investment into social policies. Yes, that same 'social' that is part of the word 'socialism'.

Oops, did I say that? My entire comment is now lost because of the obsession of the right to criticize, but not be willing to do what it takes to fix the problems due to key words that set them off.

So the liberal expectation now of any armed guard getting paid to protect our children is just that he will be killed too?

Who are you, Cathy Newman?

@blackl Not talking about arming teachers, there was an armed, trained professional on site.

And the armed, trained professional was a human who responded in one of the many different ways a human might have in that situation.

You have zero idea what he was experiencing. You nor any other 'give everyone a gun person' can say with even the slightest degree of confidence how you would have responded in that situation. Unless you're claiming omniscience.

So the liberal expectation

Living in a zero or one based world. But then throughout history that's been the approach used by extremists.

Making more over-simplified over-generalizations ends up further weakening your position.

Nope, someone in this very forum mocked my proposal to actually do something instead of just talking and used this exact same reasoning.

Is multi-fold. How can you know what this guard was instructed to do? Do you seriously believe armed guards are told to give up their lives in all circumstances? Stop over-gener

so the only person who IS armed isnt expected to do anything more than all the people who are not? Media didnt even tell us for a few days that an armed guard was assigned. Then we find he was "somewhere else" at the time of the attack. Then we hear that all the schools in this district have armed guards and 6 even have TWO armed guards assigned.

so it was preventable by the FBI on at least 2 tips. It was preventable by any law enforcement who went to his house 30+ times. It was preventable by an armed guard. But nope, take the lazy way out, blame "a gun" and Trump, do nothing and move on.

Five states allow guns to be seized before someone can commit violence.

It’s called a “red flag” law. Unfortunately florida doesn’t have it.

The shooters relatives called the local police and asked them to take away his guns. Not only did they refuse they didn’t even document that call or another one weeks before when someone called and said Cruz could be a “school shooter in the making”.

so let’s simply put the blame where it belongs (shooter, local police, FBI, Florida legislature) and fix it, no?

Mine is three years more recent than yours. Which means they gave up at least one more time since your 2013 link. Even in your time, 4 Dems voted against it.

But whatever, talking helps nothing. What is going to be done that doesnt involve waiting for lawmakers to change all of this? What are the liberal ideas other than waiting for something that is currently illegal to be made legal (i.e. ban something or take away something)?

Yes I care very much. Enough that I actually have proposed solutions instead of trying to illegally take away people’s rights(not gonna happen) or waiting for lawmakers to change laws (not gonna happen-they care about re-election).

Dems and liberal media only excited now if they can put the same 4 kids on tv and town halls and marches to score political points. That does nothing to fix the problem.

So, blaming the FBI and local police does work?

Sure it does! FBI can change their procedures as far as how they handle tips to their hotline and provide additional training to the agents who met the original tipster guy from Youtube at his office. Local police can look into their active shooter scenarios and train their armed deputies to actually do something when a shooter starts killing unarmed people. They can also look into why no reports were made of the calls from the shooter's relatives voicing their concerns about his behavior and his guns.

These are some of the few things that CAN be done that no one should have any reason to disagree with.

@vik The NRA and conservatives will not allow any new laws that would have prevented Cruz from owning the weapons. They will only allow laws that expand gun ownership.

Does an NRA supporter have a rebuttal to this?

Regardless, I think this is the most succinct statement on the reality of the mindset the NRA and people who call themselves 'conservatives' have.

I've never been a devout follower of any religion or political belief system, but worry that gun rights-ism has become one whose followers have the same intense feelings as those of any radical, fundamentalist sect - ever. And they're probably more frightening because of the private arsenals so many have and claim to be so willing to use to defend their odd beliefs. And they're even more frightening when the worship leaders like Trump.

Oh and btw SIX armed deputies are guarding the home of the deputy who stayed outside as people died.

Proof that armed people don't make things safer if there is something as powerful as a semi auto rifle. It looks like Trump is going Liberal on his followers. What's going on? He wants to raise the age for gun ownership. Trump is a Liberal. President Hillary never did that.

With even less experience and knowledge than a sheriff's deputy, how would armed teachers had handled this

Don't forget a mass shooter with an assault rifle (Micah Xavier Johnson) killed five armed and trained cops in Dallas. Basically the semi autos have to go unless there is a special license for them. But some NRA Trump people have been watching too many Rambo movies and don't understand the difference between reality and Hollywood. The bullet of a semi auto rifle does extra damage- much more than a typical gun. It really tears the body up unlike any other personal gun. On top of that with it's rapid fire it is a killing machine and it's very difficult to fight off even if you are armed like the Dallas example above and considering what happened with armed security in Orlando(50 killed).

domtoidi - The right fringe always regurgitates the NRA talking points and demonizes the rational and reasonable thinkers.

Make your case and see if you can convince U.S. voters to buy what you're selling.

Strangerland - All these failures in the system are causing a failure to address the fact that the system is a failure.

Even after a mass shooting, the argument in the US isn’t even ‘should we ban guns?’ Instead they’re having troubles even banning bump stocks.

The so-called "bump stock" only requires a reclassification by the BATFE. It was the BATFE, in 2010 under the Obama administration, who OK'd the public sale of a device that would allow "handicapped" shooters to buy a device that they knew would allow multiple rounds/bullets to be fired with a single pull of the trigger.

Strangerland - Great, so lets get that done.

Go ahead. Write them a letter. If you're in a hurry, they have a publically listed phone number.

He was there to protect the students. He did not. What a disgrace.

He was there to protect the students. He did not. What a disgrace.

Nope. The law and anyone who says they "need" a gun... They are disgraceful.

US police are useless. They show up to do paperwork after the carnage is finished, the shooter killls himself or escapes. They’re more interested in sitting in their armoured personnel carriers, parading around to look like they actually did something.

I wouldnt be able to do that at my age. But I would assume that a person who pursued and accepted a career that involves being an armed guard at a school would have that ability.

If only all the gun supporting commenters on JT had been there, I'm sure you all would have swung in on a rope, crashed through a window, taken the gunman out in a hail of bullets that all cleanly hit his center of body mass,

Not talking about arming teachers, there was an armed, trained professional on site.

So the liberal expectation now of any armed guard getting paid to protect our children is just that he will be killed too? As I said low expectations.

@rainy day 4 years in the army and you would have been killed by a part time junior ROTC cadet? All I can say is I’m glad you quit the army before your lack of effort/skill got someone killed. No disrespect but come on....

How do we know it wouldnt work? It was never tried. It might have been better than "nothing" which is what we got as a result. We see now how doing nothing worked out. So my question is not all this negative this wont work, that wont work, what are we going to DO to solve this? Kids on TV and Twitter attacking and blaming Republicans while ignoring the FBI and local police role in this isnt gonna get it done, for sure.

Fact of the matter, the GoP wanted to force legislation that wouldn't work.

If he wasn't up to it he should have quit or sought reassignment elsewhere.

I can't imagine this is the entire story. He should at least have shot randomly in the air to distract the shooter.

zichi - What could the deputy have done in the 7 minutes Cruz was in the school buildings shooting and killing before he fled?

Why didn't authorities properly deal with this psychopath in the YEARS leading up to the psychopath finally making his decision to commit mass murder. There were plenty of warning signs. This psychopath talked about wanting to be a "school shooter". He posted on the internet about being a "school shooter". He talked to his friends about being a "school shooter". Couldn't someone have taken 7 minutes to put this monster in custody? Or sent him to a hospital for evaluation?

RecklessToday 09:22 am JSTCannot judge this man. He had no idea how many shooters and what was happening.

yes you can because it's in his job description. why the heck do you think they place "resource officers," who are actually police officeers, at schools? to protect the students, duh! and what he did was not to protect students. as his boss said, he should have gone inside and killed the killer.

Like this one? http://thefederalist.com/2016/06/21/democrats-tanked-gun-control-to-up-their-election-chances/

Rather than agree to the incremental gun control measures Republicans proposed, the Democrats chose to pass no gun control legislation at all. At some point after loudly demanding legislation for more than a week, Senate Democrats decided it would be better for their reelection prospects that no gun control bills pass the Senate during the election season. Their decision was hypocritical, unprincipled, and pure politics.

think of the change in narrative if the armed guard had acted?

"Hero armed guard neutralizes attempted school shooter, saving the lives of 3000 students and teachers". Wow, having armed guards at schools is awesome, good thing there was someone there to save our children! (not that liberals would ever admit that, they would have just totally ignored and it would have been on news for like 1 min story).

But just because he didnt act, we get the entire opposite gun control narrative. Guns arent necessary, guns never save lives, blah blah.

Liberal excuse: But Cruz hadnt done anything wrong yet! we couldnt take his semi automatic gun, no one is the "thought police", you dotard!

Liberal solution: Take the guns away from everyone who has done nothing wrong.

If thats your solution why didnt someone take away Cruz's gun? You seem to have no problem taking away everyone elses.

Guess the candidate pool was getting low on both sides.

Yeah its ultimately liberals fault. You decided to support the only candidate who was worse than the "worst Presidential candidate in history". So now we have Trump, yay!

Its not my fault at all, you gave me nothing from your side as an acceptable alternative. In fact, I and many others used to be on "your side" prior to 2016 election, so there is that too.

An armed policeman, who was at the school, was unable to stop the shooter.

Not unable, he was armed. Simply unwilling. The teachers and the students killed, they were "unable".

He failed to do his job.

liberals have such low expectations of the actions of others when it fits their narrative. "what could this guy could have done with just a handgun...?", "not FBI's fault to miss all the tips, they are soooo busy....", etc.