Trump backs effort to improve gun background checks

This is more reasonable conversation than has previously occurred after a school was shot up.

Background checks are optional. Just buy from a gun show or a private party and you won't need it.

Or just find a straw buyer. It's nearly impossible for the cops to prove that you bought to to evade the check for someone else. It's perfectly legal to pass your check, get you gun, change your mind about owning a gun, then gift it to someone else who had no check 2 seconds after buying it. You can't prove that he didn't legitimately change his mind, right?

Then we had gun supporters fighting to keep guns optional for people on the no-fly list. They successfully killed the gun research at the CDC (didn't want the bad numbers to get out), and in some states doctors are barred from asking if a patient has a gun. But don't worry, I'm sure the gun supporters will present their plan to expand mental healthcare to tackle this issue so we don't miss any signs.

Guns are here to stay, school shootings are the price we pay for that, and it will never end. We'd be better off turning our schools into supermax fortresses.

If mental illness is the problem, then why don't we see these mass shootings in other countries? Or is the US the only country with people who have mental health issues? Is it something in the air? The soil?

Actually, the guns themselves probably help cause some of the mental illnesses. Worrying that someone else may have a gun makes some people want to have a more powerful gun and so on until many end up with assault rifles and other ridculously powerful weapons. One could easily argue that that in itself is a from of mental illness.

So Trump pretty much immediately says he is open to some type of improvement.

Kid #1: school safety a priority not gun control. it’s not about guns it’s about the victims! Kid#2: handguns are fine just not assault rifles.

Strangerland

If mental illness is the problem, then why don't we see these mass shootings in other countries?

We do, but much less frequently. Remember Anders Breivik? In 2011 he shot and killed 69 people in Norway, plus another 8 who he killed with a car bomb.

Is it something in the air? The soil?

...The constitution?

We do, but much less frequently.

Hmm, so there is mental illness in other countries as well, yet they have extremely fewer incidents like this than in other countries. So what's the differentiating factor here? What could it be? Why aren't the mentally ill shooting kids who are trying to get educated in other countries? What is missing from the equation that would stop this from happening elsewhere? Bueller? Bueller?

I call bull on this. He and the GOP won't do a damn thing. This is a CYA move, just like the bump stocks, that will go nowhere. I wish I wasn't so jaded, but anything said by this "president" and GOP Congress is worthless.

Time for a simple up or down vote on an AR-15 ban.

The background system works IF the authorities keep the proscribed list up to date, which they didn't do in this and other cases. The school needs to report kids for the crime of bringing guns or ammunition in a backpack, the FBI needs to connect the kid with guns on social media to threats, being adjudicated in a mental facility needs to make it onto government records, etc.

Strangerland

I would put my hand up but after posting on the last article I told myself to stop trying to tell the Americans what to do in their own country. I would love to see a reasonable answer though, not the usual cliches.

The background system works IF the authorities keep the proscribed list up to date, which they didn't do in this and other cases.

How? This kid had no record, and had not been diagnosed with mental illness. So how would a background check hold him up even if the FBI was more on the ball? There was no reason to justify denying him a gun, and as the NRA has taught us, there is no more egregious sin than not giving a gun to someone who is not mentally ill.

Well, the food in the USA that most people were taught to eat by the Federal Govt is a problem.

The food pyramid that I was taught is exactly how to create ADHT kids and diabetics. Too many processed carbs, not enough veggies and too many fizzy drinks.

Most of the "food" in a typical USA grocery store isn't really fit to be eaten.

So, yes, there is a problem in the USA that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world at the same level.

How? This kid had no record, and had not been diagnosed with mental illness.

If the school had reported Cruz for a crime he would have had a record (assuming it was convicted). There was also a mental health evaluation that didn't lead to hospitalization and an FBI referral that apparently didn't even make it to the investigative stage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/us/nikolas-cruz-florida-shooting.html

Florida Agency Investigated Nikolas Cruz After Violent Social Media Posts

The Sandy Hook massacre was worse than this and it didn't change anything, so why should this one? Talk is cheap. Action, on the other hand, would mean Trump distancing himself from his base. He won't do anything that puts distance between him and his base. He might talk the talk, but he's a yo-yo and will always return to his base.

By the way, he was playing golf again today, wasn't he?

As far as America's obsession with violence, look no further than the liberal enclave known as Hollywood.

There is a GoP game plan to put down gun control movements. It is obvious by the concerted way the GoP responds to a mass shooting.

The plan is basically delay (no knee jerk reactions, time for prayer, don't politicize a tragedy when the country should be in mourning, etc.) and if delay tactics fail placate to the least extent possible (put some bills out that do little to nothing and blame Democrats for failing to pass the GoP's meaningless legislation).

What needs to be done at a minimum:

1 Effective control of gun sales (minimum), make it a crime to sell guns through a non-regulated exchange. 2 Ban assault rifles and semi-automatic rifles that can hold more than five bullets. (on this point, it is usually a violation to be hunting with a rifle that can hold more than five bullets, so why do people need guns with 30+ round clips? To be more effective killing machines, duhh.). To be effective, ARs would need to be turned in, which I am sure will be popular.

Pistols are another story and potentially as dangerous or more dangerous as assault rifles because they can hold a lot of bullets in clips that make them easy to reload, can be concealed easier, and are more effective in close quarters.

None of the above will happen under the GoP controlled government.

The GoP are using patronizing delay tactics and are alluding to the lowest form of control, exchange information on gun checks. Trump's proposals are just more of his hallow marketing.

So, after his Twitter rant he took the advice of his trusted fellow golfers at Mara LaGo? Does he know that this is what his predecessor wanted but that he himself backed out of (and refuses to show pictures of him signing bills to do so)? He going to deny he said this tomorrow?

Get the guns out of your society, no matter how long it takes. Take action or get voted OUT OF OFFICE!

If mental illness is the problem, then why don't we see these mass shootings in other countries?

Why don’t we see people using vehicles to run over people? Why do we see so many single family households? America is a melting pot, different cultures, religions, lifestyles, Europe has their set of problems, some Asian countries have theirs and we have ours. What works well in one country doesn’t always work well in another. Euthanasia works for some European countries, but in the States it wouldn’t. It’s not that easy to answer or to pigeonhole. But mental illness and life experiences are a huge problem and I think both sides should get together and come somewhere in the middle, but the right doesn’t want to hear banning this or taking this away, that is a very slippery slope and something the right doesn’t trust and never will, the left thinks, if you don’t do anything, then you are part of the problem, you don’t care about the kids and everything emotional tied to it. Either way, both sides despite their distrust can come together, put their heads together and come up with a middle ground solution where both sides can feel comfortable with.

Or is the US the only country with people who have mental health issues? Is it something in the air? The soil?

A lot more complex than that.

There is a GoP game plan to put down gun control movements. It is obvious by the concerted way the GoP responds to a mass shooting.

What?

The plan is basically delay (no knee jerk reactions, time for prayer, don't politicize a tragedy when the country should be in mourning, etc.) and if delay tactics fail placate to the least extent possible (put some bills out that do little to nothing and blame Democrats for failing to pass the GoP's meaningless legislation).

Yes, that’s absolutely true. Dems won’t do anything, they themselves are conflicted about gun control. They can’t even solve the gun problems in their own heavily liberal urban cities like Chicago, where the murder rate is 5 times worse, but because their Black, who gives a darn, right? Of course the left is politicizing this issue. The left think they are so smart when it comes to this issue, they are so full of it and here is a prime example.

https://youtu.be/R4oOSt7sBZM

What needs to be done at a minimum:

1 Effective control of gun sales (minimum), make it a crime to sell guns through a non-regulated exchange.

Will never happen.

2 Ban assault rifles and semi-automatic rifles that can hold more than five bullets. (on this point, it is usually a violation to be hunting with a rifle that can hold more than five bullets, so why do people need guns with 30+ round clips? To be more effective killing machines, duhh.). To be effective, ARs would need to be turned in, which I am sure will be popular.

Ok, next. Lol

Pistols are another story and potentially as dangerous or more dangerous as assault rifles because they can hold a lot of bullets in clips that make them easy to reload, can be concealed easier, and are more effective in close quarters.

So then by your logic, all celebrities, politicians, farmers and hunters give up all weapons and then what?

None of the above will happen under the GoP controlled government.

And it didn’t happen under the Democratic one and never will. Even for arguments sake, the left could do something so idiotic and unrealistic, you would push the market ungrounded and increasing sales of firearms and ammunition. Heck, I’d get in the business. Prohibition worked so well to stop the sale of alcohol, right?

The GoP are using patronizing delay tactics and are alluding to the lowest form of control, exchange information on gun checks. Trump's proposals are just more of his hallow marketing.

No, it’s more like the left is using fear (once again) emotion to drive an argument that they will never win, they want to solve this problem and I do think there are things that can be done on a bipartisan level, but the left needs to park their demagoguery aside, the fear and the rant, grow up and sit down with the GOP and think logically and rationally. Anyone can scream and shout, but that won’t help the situation and it won’t get any sympathy from the right.

owning firearms are for hunting, sport or personal protection. 

They sure come in handy if you need to overthrow your government. Thank god that never happens.

The Second Amendment to our Constitution gives Americans the right to own handguns and rifles. In modern America, the only purposes for owning firearms are for hunting, sport or personal protection.

Yes, good that you studied up on this. I wish more people on the left would.

Military assault weapons are designed to kill as many people as possible on a battlefield of war. They have no place in a peaceful civilian population.

Ok, that’s your opinion, but I have that right to own and buy one. I collect guns and I don’t care what other countries done, I only care about my country.

https://www.vox.com/2016/6/20/11975850/ar-15-owner-orlando

I agree.

That is incorrect or off the cuff because you have recently said you own two guns back in America. I'm guessing a handgun and rifle or just two rifles of the hunting type since you also said numerous times when back in America you like to hunt. Do you even own an assault rifle? If so which one?

You can guess all you want, but what I own is not important, but I do own an AR-15 and I also collect and trade guns.

Since the average gun owner has more than 8 weapons then I think in your case of owning just two makes you a gun owner but far from being a gun collector.

You don’t need to think or guess, you will never know anything about me, you do not get to define me, but yes, I do collect and sell guns, go to gun shows, but in my home I have two.

So you have no care about Japan when you live here or your family who also live here and to boot have very different gun laws than back home. Whats your Japanese family's opinion on the mass shootings?

You are drifting off, back on topic please. Anyway, this problem of banning the AR-15 won’t work, what about the semi-automatic guns millions of hunters own, you want to ban them, you think the government is going to sweep homes to get them? You think most gun owners would give up their semi-automatic? As the sun rises and sets, it will never happen.

You can guess all you want, but what I own is not important, but I do own an AR-15 and I also collect and trade guns

That why you think a bolt action rifle and an assault rifle create the same carnage in the same amount of time?

Anyway, this problem of banning the AR-15 won’t work, what about the semi-automatic guns millions of hunters own

Semi-automatic hunting rifles have a much smaller capacity than an assault rifle.

That doesn’t mean, I care, quite the opposite.

If you didn't care, you wouldn't say anything.

As for requested cites, you incorrectly claimed the victims in Florida brought Trump into the mix. When asked for a single cite, you promptly vanish. Just one cite to back up your assertion. One.

There is no deep state. That is a right wing conspiracy created as an excuse for Trump's utter incompetence.

I wish I could say the same about most libs, but I forget everything they say, everything by the end of the day, but this, you two got me moved.

Memory issues.

When one is seriously engaging another in debate, it is beneficial to remember the details. It allows you context to both understand and judge credibility.

Why do Americans need to have Guns ? Is it some form of insecurity issue ?

If so, then I guess that would could as mental illness and mean no one was eligible to own a Gun ... :o

Didn't Trump repeal Obama's Law on stricter gun controls for those with Mental illnesses ?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43088644

Why do Americans need to have Guns ? Is it some form of insecurity issue ? 

I'm obviously not a "gun butter," which you can research yourself by clicking on my name and reading my archived posts. Please keep that in mind as I attempt to help you understand. Other firearms owners, please assist in a reasonable discussion, i.e., no hyperbole.

The boring, objectives stuff:

Colonies throw off the colonizer in no small part because the colonized (all white; the actual colonized were the native Americans and colonized isn't the appropriate word) own firearms.

Leaders of said former colony agree to a list of rights in the document which lays the foundation for the rule of law in the context of a "free society." A freedom they had literally just shed blood and won b/c of private firearm ownership.

This process also created a deeply rooted mistrust of authority.

A firearm to Americans represents the ability to gain the upper hand over an unjust authority.

The "cannot understand unless you've experienced it," i,e, sex, weed, riding a liter bike at 170 mph, having kids, etc. stuff:

Firing an AR makes you feel that a firearm ensure the freedom I described above. You feel the power of a firearm instantly as it reverberates through the air and your body.. You know that when you are holding that weapon, you are the law, judge, jury, and executioner.

Becoming intimate with your weapon through extensive use and cleaning only further strengthens the bond.

Hope that helped someone understand.

. . .

If so, then I guess that would could as mental illness and mean no one was eligible to own a Gun ... :o

It's definitely a psychological thing.

A firearm to Americans represents the ability to gain the upper hand over an unjust authority.

That’s your take. I for one, love guns, always have, grew up with them, my entire family uses them, we are hunters, we go often to the shooting range, just love it. I also have the option to protect myself and my family, should it ever come to that. If you live in the countryside, it is not always easy to get a hold of the police at least with the gun, I have the power to protect myself and it gives me a sense of security. Never had a problem, not worried about anything, but because of the Second Amendment, I don’t have to put my trust in the local government, I have the right to Protect myself and my property.

The "cannot understand unless you've experienced it," i,e, sex, weed, riding a liter bike at 170 mph, having kids, etc. stuff:

If you think so.

Firing an AR makes you feel that a firearm ensure the freedom I described above.

That as well as, “I just can.”

You feel the power of a firearm instantly as it reverberates through the air and your body.. You know that when you are holding that weapon, you are the law, judge, jury, and executioner.

Not entirely, but I do in some kind bizarre Tom Clancy like way, I get your point.

Becoming intimate with your weapon through extensive use and cleaning only further strengthens the bond.

Yo! It’s a gun, not a Golden Retriever.

If Nikolas Cruz had been arrested for his prior criminal behavior he would not have passed a background check for a firearm purchase. The issue was/is not the background check; the issue was/is the lack of a prior arrest. Hence, the Broward County school and law enforcement policy is ultimately what failed.

The schools basically ran their own end of a police department and thus it was the school deciding whether or not charges would be pressed in specific situations. They were detailed, chased down, documented, knocked on doors, filed FOIAs and brought sunlight onto the procedures and policies that created the very situation. The logic here is in the reality of their intra-school system, their quasi police operation within the school, and their effort to reduce significantly any record of criminal behavior from within their student bodies or on their campuses. Their goal was to reduce the #s that the public would see, and they bent policies and operations to get that result.

Lawsuits against the school board and police for dereliction of duty and supporting criminal actions. If these students feel unsafe, why did they also approve of criminals acts. The whole thing reeks of lies and imbecility on parents, students, school board, teachers, and police. Well, FL state what are you going to do to clean up this huge mess calling the death of 17 young people? You have a huge problem here and better get your act together and start thinking and acting to get order.

Wishing for well being to the victims, their families and those who are hostage to these policies.

What a sad place the US is. Some people still trying to defend the indefensible. 'Responsible' gun owners (if there is such a thing) keep their guns locked away in a safe place. Not much good when the robbers come bursting in guns blazing! As a comedian once said about gun control, cut all the BS about protection and just say that you love guns.

The schools basically ran their own end of a police department and thus it was the school deciding whether or not charges would be pressed in specific situations.

And then you think, why the hell is a school system responsible for policing? After all, the reverse would be immediately understood as abnormal. I'm not blaming law enforcement; I'm just pointing out the obvious fact that all sides are placed in untenable positions due to the illogical nature of American expectations.

I wonder about the idea of guns used for protecting yourself against a government if it turns tyrannical.

The military is continually upgrading and using ever more fearsome weaponry. It seems to follow that these brave, patriotic tough nuts ( many of whom didn’t put their money where their mouths are and serve in the armed forces ) who are ready to fight a guerilla war will need to upgrade their own weaponry.

I wonder what the gun lovers/deer shooters/potential guerilla fighters think they’ll need to wage war against a military bigger than the next 10 in the world combined.

I see firearms and encryption tools in a similar light.

Both are legal in the USA, so "why" someone legally allowed to own or use each doesn't matter.

Americans are raised not to trust the government and not to expect the govt to be helpful. I am responsible for my family and myself. Being raised away from huge cities teaches different life lessons, I suppose.

Self reliance. A firearm is part of that ideal.

Using encryption is a way to enforce our right to privacy. Using free speech is saying that we care about this right. Owning and using firearms is saying that we care about that right as well.

Maybe the day will come when the president and congress live to regret not doing something about gun control. I'll join in that one too!.

Or maybe the left will wake up and realize that it’s not just about guns.

You think most gun owners would give up their semi-automatic? As the sun rises and sets, it will never happen.

And sadly, this attitude ensures that many, many more tragedies await.

Laguna: And then you think, why the hell is a school system responsible for policing? 

Policing will be one more thing we will ask our underpaid teachers to do. They have to learn CPR to save lives, they have to go through suicide prevention training, sometimes provide food or supplies from their own pockets. We'll just add the extra burden of issuing them guns and asking them to shoot an intruder in the face if needed. They'll be fine.

Now how about another $50 billion for the military and $25 billion for a wall? And has Jeff Bezos received his tax cut so he can start trickling it down to us?

American parents: withdraw your children from their schools NOW! America is awash with guns, including semi-automatic assault rifles! Your child might be the next victim! There is no one who can be bothered to protect him/her, from the President to the Congress to state and local governments to the police to security guards -- all of them. School massacres are happening CONSTANTLY, everywhere in the country! There is more than one way to educate someone, so use home schooling or something -- but keep them ALIVE! At school, they are trembling with fear EVERY DAY -- thinking, am I next?! Better to be SAFE than SORRY!

Bass: Those cites backing up your incorrect assertion that the Florida victims mentioned Trump first?

Each country has different laws toward owning guns. Bass4 declared he owns guns and lives in Japan. I wonder why he does not live in Japanese jail.

Those cites backing up your incorrect assertion that the Florida victims mentioned Trump first?

Well, they did. What else can I say.

Well it certainly is when it comes to the 2nd amendment and the citizens of many countries have risen up against their government. Empires crumble and big social changes happen. America will not be an exception.

> I keep telling you I'm not left or right.

Oh, you can pigeonhole me, but I can’t do you? Lol

If the government thinks it will forcefully take our guns, you might be right.

Well, they did. What else can I say.

You could admit that you were wrong.

But I suppose I should keep my expectations within the realm of reality.

Trump at long last finally did something (bill re bump stocks).

amendments can be amended, and this one needs it clearly.

While I wish for the general amount of weapons to be severely reduced, reasonable restrictions, testing, storage regulations, inspection regulations, graduated gun type ownership, like we all accept for driving for example, don't necessarily interfere with the "right" for a reasonable and sane person to own a firearm.

I'll agree its more than just the weapons and other reporting and mental health assistance have to be part of it, however the dehumanizing distancing of being able to shoot someone with little or no effort from a distance I believe is part of what allows a person who might have issues to take it to the very sad outcomes we see time and time again.

Well, they did. What else can I say

Do t say anything, post a cite. You must still be looking for it. Hint: It does not exist.

Risky: I agree with your criticisms. As I said, I was only attempting to help others understand the American obsession with firearms. I was in no way attempting to justify that obsession.

Risky: No harm, no foul.

Strict licensing of firearms is reasonable. Any reasonable, rational person understands that.