Trump presses for contentious census citizenship question despite legal uncertainty

Go President Trump! Get that question on the census and take our country back. MAGA!

Good news!

That question will simply destroy the accuracy of the census because people will either lie or refuse to take the census at all. Its a real stupid idea.

Perhaps the headline might read, “Trump Seeks to Defy Supreme Court on Census, Provoking Constitutional Crisis”

"We're working on a lot of things including an executive order," Trump told reporters on Friday outside the White House as he left for his resort in Bedminster, New Jersey.

Really? trump actually thinks an executive order overrides the Supreme Court.

Perhaps the headline might read, “Trump Seeks to Defy Supreme Court on Census, Provoking Constitutional Crisis”

He didn’t defy anything. The SC didn’t give an ultimate ruling on this issue, they kicked it back to the lower courts, so Trump has every right to proceed with this.

Hofeller concluded in a 2015 study that asking census respondents whether they are American citizens "would clearly be a disadvantage to the Democrats" and "advantageous to Republicans and Non-Hispanic Whites"

I guess some people out there support that kind of politics.

If you claim to be a constitutional originalist, you have to be against the citizenship question because the constitution calls for a count of all the people, not just citizens. Since the constitution uses citizens and people in different provisions, we know the framers meant to make a distinction.

Chip Star - If you claim to be a constitutional originalist, you have to be against the citizenship question because the constitution calls for a count of all the people, not just citizens.

And you would be wrong. According to the article -

*The court ruled that in theory the government can ask about citizenship on the census and left open the possibility that the administration could offer a plausible rationale to add the question**. *

Is anyone willing to take a bet that Captain Chaos will try to disrupt the census if he doesn't get his way?

CrazyJoe - Perhaps the headline might read, “Trump Seeks to Defy Supreme Court on Census, Provoking Constitutional Crisis”

Really? trump actually thinks an executive order overrides the Supreme Court.

Based on the information supplied in the article, your headline would be wrong. The Supremes definitely left open the possibility that a citizenship question could be added to the census.

Just put out an executive order like Obama did with DACA and crank up the printing presses. Don’t let the Dems institute sanctuary policies to gin up illegal immigration and use the artificially jacked up population counts to dilute the political representation of citizens and divert tax dollars to criminal illegal aliens. It’s a dastardly ploy by a cynical Democrat party who have still not yet come to grips with Hillary’s 2016 defeat.

Is anyone willing to take a bet that Captain Chaos will try to disrupt the census if he doesn't get his way?

Hope so and why are Democrats so afraid of finding out how many illegals are in the country? I think it’s a good thing, we should know. Good on Trump for pushing this.

arrestpaulToday 11:21 am JST

1) The court does not have to be right on the merits.

2) Unless you seriously think such a question will not place a burden on certain demographics, purposively putting in such a question will degrade the accuracy of a survey meant to count "all the people".

3) The court did not even really say such a rationale exists. All it did was refrain from saying that no rationale will possibly be accepted. It may turn out that Trump (or anyone) will never be able to come up with a satisfying rationale. This is consistent with the principle of ruling as little as possible.

why are Democrats so afraid of finding out how many illegals are in the country?

The census with the added question will not provide an answer either. Lots of people, including legal residents, will simply not answer the census.

I'd like to know this from those who support Trump's move: What is the real reason to have the question added? Wilbur Ross argued that it was to better enforce the Voting Rights Act. Do you agree with that? Or was Ross lying? And why would he have to lie anyway?

Trump on Friday said the "number one" reason for adding the question was for the drawing of electoral districts, which is not the legal reason the administration originally gave for adding it.

Good luck winning the legal case. Trump is just confirming what Roberts and the majority already ruled on.

And this:

The U.S. Constitution specifically assigns the job of overseeing the census to Congress, limiting the authority of the president over it, which could complicate an effort to add the question via presidential missive.

Ha ha. What an idiot Trump is.

Just put out an executive order like Obama did with DACA and crank up the printing presses. 

Well, DACA is not written in the Constitution. Who oversees the census is. Trump is going to lose big on this one.

How will it produce accurate results if people, legal and illegal decide not to answer the question. Just adding the question don't mean it will happen. Maybe illegals just avoid the census all together.

This is very true, but at the same time if there are illegals that don’t want to answer and if you go by the stats where from the previous year up a house claiming so many residents living in there compared to the answers they have on the new form now, we can easily make a comparison and if the numbers in that household don’t add up then we can scrutinize it more closely and take whatever appropriate and necessary action we need to take.

 if the numbers in that household don’t add up then we can scrutinize it more closely and take whatever appropriate and necessary action we need to take.

So you're saying the census question is needed to crack down on undocumented immigrants. Why didn't Wilbur Ross just say so? What was all that nonsense about better upholding the Voting Rights Act? And Trump is saying the question is needed for drawing congressional districts (indirectly implying that this is a political ploy).

The question ain't gonna get added, and Trump is gonna use that to whine and play victim again.

I'd like to know this from those who support Trump's move: What is the real reason to have the question added?

What is the real reason that liberals don’t want it?

Wilbur Ross argued that it was to better enforce the Voting Rights Act. Do you agree with that? Or was Ross lying? And why would he have to lie anyway?

I think it’s more important to ask, who’s legal and who is not legal in this country.

.

Good luck winning the legal case. Trump is just confirming what Roberts and the majority already ruled on.

Well, because there was no official ruling, it’s all up and open, we shall see.

And this:

The U.S. Constitution specifically assigns the job of overseeing the census to Congress, limiting the authority of the president over it, which could complicate an effort to add the question via presidential missive.

Or this:

What’s also obvious is that knowing the number of citizens, as opposed to legal or illegal aliens, is pertinent information. The number of non-citizens in the United States is generally estimated to be about 22 million, with approximately half here illegally. An accurate count of such persons matters, and inquiring about it when you’re counting people is hardly intrusive or an abuse, let alone illegal, as previous court challenges to various questions have reaffirmed.

Ha ha. What an idiot Trump is.

Some May think so, others may not.

Well, DACA is not written in the Constitution.

No, it’s an executive order that should have never been made....wonder what these limbo people are doing now....

Who oversees the census is. Trump is going to lose big on this one.

I doubt it.

Another loss for dumb Kris Kobach, the man behind the failed voter fraud commission.

What is the real reason that liberals don’t want it?

That's not an answer. Cause you aren't able to formulate one.

Let me answer your question though, because I can. Because it's a dishonest and anti-Constitutional ploy to suppress responses in order to rig districting to benefit a Republican minority.

I think it’s more important to ask, who’s legal and who is not legal in this country.

Why didn't they just say that then?

Thought you might also like to know that the Commerce Department is by law not allowed to share individual respondents' data with ICE. Hope that doesn't disappoint you.

What’s also obvious is that knowing the number of citizens, as opposed to legal or illegal aliens, is pertinent information. The number of non-citizens in the United States is generally estimated to be about 22 million, with approximately half here illegally. An accurate count of such persons matters, and inquiring about it when you’re counting people is hardly intrusive or an abuse, let alone illegal, as previous court challenges to various questions have reaffirmed.

Wow. Did you write that? Thought not.

And you would be wrong. According to the article -

You clearly don't understand what a constitutional originalist is. You are promoting judicial activism, which I thought conservatives were against,

Just put out an executive order like Obama did with DACA and crank up the printing presses

False equivalency. The president is tasked by the constitution to enforce the laws, which is what Obama did with DACA. Congress is tasked with carrying out the census, which means Donny can't simply "put out" an executive order to get his way.

Census is but a way to "count" by identifying individuals within an area or territory, a demographic count.

For the Fedreal government as do the States and the Cities and counties, there are many types that must be identified for a multitide of reasons and purposes. A lot depends on the scope and the frequency of such census. A whole lot depends on the "honesty" of those taking the census and those answering the census questions. Givent the current situation within the US, the timing and thoroughness as well as the tallying process can determine the accuracy of such census. We are a "mobile" society and one living in one area may be at another location when the census is taken. So "residency" is another major problem in all census.

Given that, it is much more efficient for the huge Federal government that must account for a massive number of people in the population, all relating to the government in different ways, to include as much as they can in the questions to identify as many different tyes of individuals at any one census. Such information is not only for voting where citizenship is a requirement, but also for indentifying and determining public policies and in planning and addressing funding for different public services. It is for the government and taxpayers much more cost effective, too.

Such questions may include race, sex, age, religion, marital status, employment status, citizenship, permanent resident alien, registered but not permanent alien (ie: student/work visa), and even disability. (This is all being done in the open, unlike those net companies that take all such information and even more directly and indirectly and secretly, often accessing public but personal and private information such as divorce and law suites and personal business and residential addresses. Scary too that they are accumulating our personal life habits. And worse, they are selling and buying such information. )

That is what a census is all about... so why not?

For now there is a definite need to identify citizens and non-citizens, especially thse that are not legal.

It is not a political or moral or ethical or even a personal bias issue... Census is a practical way for any organization or government to identify those who are within their territory... All political parties, all major companies and even religions rely on census or demographics to plan and execute programs. The real problem is in the misuse of the process of taking the census and misuse of the census data.

Census is a practical way for any organization or government to identify those who are within their territory

I think the purpose of a census is to count people, not identify them. Asking questions about legal status on any matter is likely to produce inaccurate data. How would the question, "Have you paid all your taxes?" go down?

For now there is a definite need to identify citizens and non-citizens, especially thse that are not legal.

No. If the framers of the constitution had only wanted citizens counted in the census, they would have so said. We know this because the framers used "citizen" to describe who is qualified to hold certain offices, but used "people" to describe who should be counted by the census.

There are two strands of Trumpism going on here. The more politically calculating Trumpists want to use the question knowing it will suppress minority (i.e. Democratic) responses and therefore skew districting and funding in favor of Republicans. The less "sophisticated" Trumpists want the question in order to ferret out those scary "illegals" hiding amongst them. Both strands are pretty repugnant, if you ask me.

False equivalency. The president is tasked by the constitution to enforce the laws, which is what Obama did with DACA. Congress is tasked with carrying out the census, which means Donny can't simply "put out" an executive order to get his way.

What are you talking about? There is nothing in the Constitution about allowing illegal immigration. Neither the Constitution nor Congress specifies every question that is asked on the Census. Roberts has admitted that the Executive has the power to ask the citizenship question. That question has been asked in one form or another in all but two of the censuses conducted in American history. He simply bought into the Lefts ginned up excuse of motivation in order to oppose it. The motivation is irrelevant to the fact that it is a legal question that has historically been asked. In the case of DACA the Congress has specifically stated that there must be a regularized immigration system. De facto open borders is straight up illegal.

All Trump need do is to issue an Executive Order adding the question and state that it is necessary to count people who are in the country illegally for enforcement purposes. Congress has not prohibited the citizenship question on the census. It has however specifically stated that a immigrant must come through a regularized process.

There are two strands of Trumpism going on here. The more politically calculating Trumpists want to use the question knowing it will suppress minority (i.e. Democratic) responses and therefore skew districting and funding in favor of Republicans.

So you are concerned about depressing the illegal alien vote? Now that is politically calculating.

What are you talking about? There is nothing in the Constitution about allowing illegal immigration. Neither the Constitution nor Congress specifies every question that is asked on the Census

I'm talking about the plain meaning of the text of the constitution. You seem to think that if the constitution doesn't explicitly spell something out, that something is fair game to be done.

All Trump need do is to issue an Executive Order adding the question and state that it is necessary to count people who are in the country illegally for enforcement purposes

The president does not control the substance of the census, congress does. It's very clear from the constitution.

So you are concerned about depressing the illegal alien vote? Now that is politically calculating.

That's not even a logical inference from the post.

Common sense, people. Of course the citizenship question should be on the Census form.

bass: Well, because there was no official ruling, it’s all up and open, we shall see.

There was an official ruling. The courts exposed that Trump's reasoning was a lie and they would not support adding the question based on a lie, so they said NO and sent it back down. They aren't saying that no one can ever add a question to the census, so the door is always open for questions to be added.

Trump can certainly try again, but he will have to do so with the full knowledge that his first reason was a lie. Now he has to come up with a new reason for the same question after being exposed trying to cook the books in his favor. And the judge specifically mentioned that albatross around his neck:

The judge on Friday rejected the administration's request that the case be put on hold, saying that an inquiry into the racial bias allegation would be relevant even if the government comes up with a new rationale for adding the citizenship question.

"Regardless of the justification defendants may now find for a "new" decision, discovery related to the origins of the question will remain relevant," Hazel wrote, referencing the legal process for gathering evidence.

There was an official ruling. The courts exposed that Trump's reasoning was a lie and they would not support adding the question based on a lie,

They did not verbally say that the President lied.

so they said NO and sent it back down.

Yes, which left it wide open, so now luckily the President DOES have a chance to make his case and to to add the question to census.

They aren't saying that no one can ever add a question to the census, so the door is always open for questions to be added. 

Exactly.

Trump can certainly try again, but he will have to do so with the full knowledge that his first reason was a lie. Now he has to come up with a new reason for the same question after being exposed trying to cook the books in his favor. And the judge specifically mentioned that albatross around his neck:

Yeah, liberals believe that. As for cooking the books, is it anything like the Democrats fake caring and concerned for the illegals that come to the country and then shove these people into the squalors of sanctuary cities.

Issue the Executive Order and be done with it. The majority of the Supreme Court agreed that it isn’t against the law to ask the citizenship question in the Census. The question has been asked in one form or other for nearly 200 years. That pretty much closes the matter in Trumps favor. Just do it and ignore the Lefts politicization of the Census.

Issue the Executive Order and be done with it. The majority of the Supreme Court agreed that it isn’t against the law to ask the citizenship question in the Census

That may very well be, but the constitution makes it grey clear it's up to congress, not the president.

Documents created by Republican strategist Thomas Hofeller, who died last year, showed he was instrumental behind the scenes in instigating the addition of the question.

Hofeller concluded in a 2015 study that asking census respondents whether they are American citizens "would clearly be a disadvantage to the Democrats" and "advantageous to Republicans and Non-Hispanic Whites" in redrawing electoral districts based on census data.

It would also be advantageous to the country.

bass: Show me verbatim where Roberts said outright Trump Lied or he is a liar. Take your time.

How silly.

The entire case is based on a lie. Ross said the DOJ asked him to add the question to "protect" the Voting Rights Act. We now know this is a lie because they have the emails from Ross and the White House showing how they were really the ones who wanted the question and wanted Ross to lie for them and say it was the DOJ requesting it and not the White House. So, Ross lied for the White House.

Anyone from the White House who has said the question was there to protect rights or that the question came from the DOJ is lying. From the top right on down to the bottom.

From the other article on JT:

Ultimately, however, Roberts joined the court's four more liberal members in saying the administration's current justification for the question "seems to have been contrived." "Altogether, the evidence tells a story that does not match the explanation the secretary gave for his decision," Roberts wrote.

Did you see the "seems to have been contrived" and "does not match the explanation"? It's a fancy way of saying it's a lie.

Anyone from the White House who has said the question was there to protect rights or that the question came from the DOJ is lying. From the top right on down to the bottom.

The SC couldn’t prove it, but you guys can? I’m befuddled? Lol

Ultimately, however, Roberts joined the court's four more liberal members in saying the administration's current justification for the question "seems to have been contrived." "Altogether, the evidence tells a story that does not match the explanation the secretary gave for his decision," Roberts wrote.

Did you see the "seems to have been contrived" and "does not match the explanation"? It's a fancy way of saying it's a lie.

Ok, so he didn’t “verbally” say, he lied. Well, you tried. In legal terms, words do matter

Bass:. The SC couldn’t prove it

Huh? The entire reason why they refused the request and sent it back down was because the justification for the question was based on a lie. One that the White House coordinated and help spread.

And they do have proof because they have the emails from Ross coordinating with the White House. Next up for Ross will be perjury charges.

Is all this info new to you or something?