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Labour's Corbyn says Theresa May has not moved enough on Brexit

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By Elizabeth Piper, Kylie MacLellan and William James

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"The Maybot has gone haywire - we've got to find the 'off' switch."

Throw it in the bath with Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg.

Nothing wrong with talking to Corbyn. It’s better than just watching the cannibal apocalypse on the Tory benches.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

If May gets multiple votes to try and make things work, why don't the voters get another chance, too? The fact that they were lied to about almost everything during the first campaign is totally ignored by May and the pro-Brexit side. If I were a UK voter I would be clamoring for a Brexit 2 vote, which I expect very well could go in favor of staying in the EU.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

The only people who won't get what they want are the people that voted LEAVE.

They voted Leave and all polls indicate that they support a No Deal / Hard Exit.

The vast majority of MPs are Remainers. Including May and virtually her entire government.

This is a complete stitch up designed to thwart the outcome of the referendum.

There is no meaning to democracy if the representatives openly state that they will not carry out what the majority voted for.

And for everyone out there that supports Remain, imagine if the tables were turned. The majority voted to Remain, and all of the representatives just decided that the UK was going to Leave anyway. Remainers would be screaming bloody murder!!

This a recipe for tyrannical control by those in power. Which is most assuredly coming in the future EU. The ability of the peoples of the EU to have any say in the affairs of government will be crushed.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

I really hope the EU doesn't give them anymore extensions.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

The simple Do you want to leave? -Yes vote is a bit like:

Do you want a drink? -Yes.

Which then raises the question of what kind of drink is preferred. Tea? Coffee? Water? Milk?(hot or cold?) Cola? Orange juice? Wine? Beer?

And since there is no consensus for exactly what drink is required, you mix them all together and offer the result - something that no one in their right mind, or with a reasonably healthy discerning palate, wants or could possibly stomach.

Yet the hardline Drinketeers are screaming Drink means drink! Pour it down, regardless of how foul it is! It's Wot the People Want!

Solution - flush the whole mess down the toilet, go back to the status quo and start again, offering people either a nice cup of tea (choice of English Breakfast, Earl Grey or Darjeeling, = UK keeps calm and goes it alone) or a nice glass of wine (choice of Beaujolais, Reisling or Chianti, = stay in the EU).

1 ( +4 / -3 )

With the clock running down the MPs, wary of giving the people another opportunity to get it wrong, are now facing a political zugzwang . They would much prefer to make the final decision themselves, but must be careful not to arouse the ire of the millions who voted to leave, which means that before the EU rings the bell to end the charade, they will be compelled to rescind Article 50. Mate and game over!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

There is no meaning to democracy if the representatives openly state that they will not carry out what the majority voted for.

Your idea of democracy seems to be that whatever the majority of people wish for will come true, whether it's free beer or leaving the EU. However much we dislike politicians, I think we realise that we need such people to implement policies and plans. Asking politicians to carry out plans they are opposed to is not a great idea. Democracy is generally defined as government by elected representatives. You can always vote for someone else if you don't like your current representative.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

May setting up Corbyn to be the fall guy, but he’s too clever to be mugged.

Miserable attempt by LINO (leader in name only) to drag Corbyn into the Tory horrorshow.

This a recipe for tyrannical control by those in power.

Yep, Brexit is nothing more than an attempted coup by the libertarian far-right of the Tory Party, backed by American billionaires like Charles Koch and Robert Mercer, using a fraudulent referendum and the fakest of fake news.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/brexit-dark-money-and-big-data/

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Further breakdown of polling information from 1 April:

No Deal vs Remain by region:

NON-LONDON SOUTH

No deal 50%

Remain 40%

MIDLANDS

No deal 49%

Remain 38%

NORTH

No deal 45%

Remain 40%

LONDON

No deal 30%

Remain 54%

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/04/02/what-do-public-think-might-break-brexit-deadlock?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website_article&utm_campaign=national_government

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Labour also have a huge problem:

"If UK not agreed deal by April 12th & EU refuses extension, what should happen?"

TORIES

No deal 76%

Remain 19%

Don't know 4%

LABOUR

No deal 26%

Remain 61%

Don't know 14%

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

"There is no meaning to democracy if the representatives openly state that they will not carry out what the majority voted for."

That's the meaning of Parliamentary Sovereignty, i.e. a concept totally unknown to 99.99% of Brexiteers, especially Farage.

The British Parliament is showing tthe entire world they are Sovereign and have been so throughout. Never mind ignoramuses like Farage, who shouted otherwise and the zimmer frame brigade believed him; poor sods didn't/still don't know what Sovereignty of Parliament is, so what else is there!

Parliament is sovereign. They can revoke/annul the Brexit vote ANY TIME they like.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

It's certainly a breakthrough which will no doubt annoy the hyper-partisans of both parties.

Much of the political class is in shock, but this, in fact, can be a victory for parliament and the democratic process. Since Chequers, we have known that no form of Brexit that is possible is actually acceptable to the people who voted for it. That’s their problem to own.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/02/brexit

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I really hope the EU doesn't give them anymore extensions.

Same here. No long extension & no participation in the next euro elections. Sick and tired of this brexit circus.

Sometimes you gotta know when to cut your losses and move on/start over (valid for remainers, leavers & EU). No deal on 12 April, all get on with their lives (not saying remainers should give up on their european dream but they should accept things have changed).

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@Peepingtom

Parliament is sovereign. They can revoke/annul the Brexit vote ANY TIME they like.

You seem to be unaware that Parliament is not sovereign. The British people are sovereign. The British Parliament is elected by the people, not the other way round.

This is something that all MPs, whether they are remainers or leavers have stated countless times.

Parliament is loaned sovereignty every 5 years through elections. Seeing as Parliament decided that the question about leaving the EU should be given back to the British public, they acquiesced the sovereignty that they were given on that decision.

I am quite surprised that you didn't know this.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Tangerine

"You seem to be unaware that Parliament is not sovereign. The British people are sovereign. The British Parliament is elected by the people, not the other way round."

And you just proved you don't know what Parliament supremacy or sovereignty is. Just like Farage.

An hint to you: I spent many years studying it; therefore I should know better than many.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Zichi

A Parliament cannot be bound, even by its own previous decisions.

Brexiteers will be losing their dentures as they slowly realise who's boss.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

An hint to you: I spent many years studying it; therefore I should know better than many.

Did you mean "A hint?"

You seem to have completely missed what I have said.

"You seem to be unaware that Parliament is not sovereign. The British people are sovereign."

I am replying to these two statements that you made.

The British Parliament is showing tthe entire world they are Sovereign and have been so throughout.

I'm saying it hasn't been. They gave their sovereignty back to the people for that decision.

Parliament is sovereign.

Please note that at no time did I say that there is no such thing as Parliamentary Sovereignty. I said:

You seem to be unaware that Parliament is not sovereign. The British people are sovereign.

If you have studied it, you should know that Parliamentary Sovereignty is broken down into two types. There is Legal Sovereignty (Parliament) and Political Sovereignty (The People).

However, even in the case of Legal Sovereignty, even though Parliament has the ability to legislate any law it likes, the final check on that body is the British people themselves, and any laws that it passes rely on them being accepted by the population in general.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Tangerine,

Nice attempt at diversion and quoting Dicey.

Read Professor Douzinas then come back/

Legal sovereignty will ultimately be the determining factor. If the electorate is dissatisfied they can elect another Parliament; that's why there are elections.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@Peepingtom

Nice attempt to avoid answering because you can't.

If the electorate is dissatisfied they can elect another Parliament; that's why there are elections.

As you said:

A Parliament cannot be bound, even by its own previous decisions.

So when the Sovereignty of the British people and its Parliament are handed over to Brussels by the current bunch in Westminster, the next Parliament will be bound with no recourse.

British people can show there dissatisfaction at the ballot box, sure. However, they (people and parliament) won't be able to get back want has been handed over.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

"So when the Sovereignty of the British people and its Parliament are handed over to Brussels by the current bunch in Westminster, the next Parliament will be bound with no recourse."

Tangerine

Until you learn what Directives, Regulations, Subsidiarity, Direct Applicability are, there's no point wasting my Latin.

Also you need to read the European Union Act 2011 to realise you actually are in the dark.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Snap election please.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

An hint to you: I spent many years studying it; therefore I should know better than many.

there's no point wasting my Latin.

I'm sorry I do not match your intellect.

Also you need to read the European Union Act 2011 to realise you actually are in the dark.

And that is the real problem colleagues, why there is such a problem in this crisis, because member states are reluctant to transfer new sovereignty and powers to the European Union, and we know that the only way out of this crisis is a new transfer of powers to the European Union and to the European Instituions.

Guy Verhofstadt, Chief Brexit Co-Ordinator in the European Parliament, 2018

Video of speech given by Guy Verhofstadt in the European Parliament.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzNPpmIFuK0

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

My prediction is that if the UK does not leave the EU now and leave cleanly, they will never again know what it means to be a sovereign country.

They will become a vassal state. subject to the dictates of the EU bureaucracy in Brussels. The Parliament will become nothing more than a minor player in the daily affairs of the British people.

EU dictates will control every aspect of daily life. The ECJ will overrule UK courts when and how they choose. The UK will not be free to enter into bilateral international agreements. Eventually, the UK armed forces will come under the control of the EU armed forces.

This is the future for the UK if it stays in the EU. Mark my words. Allowing the EU to control the UK's future would be no different than Japan allowing Beijing to dictate Japan's future.

You can disagree with me all you want, but in 10~20 years, if the UK does not leave the EU now, I will be proven right.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn couldn't politically agree if the lights on or off, the only instance that May would reach out to Comrade Corbyn is to throttle the Marxist.

Utilising the third person singular May is playing political panto, to buy time..

Corbyn, the complete sum of his parts never amounted beyond the social principles and theories of a classroom Trotskyist.

Corbyn would no more sign up to a customs or single market arrangement/agreement if his life depended on it.

It amateur hour, round and round she goes, and where she stops, nobody knows........A return to the people, a General Election, to beach this ship of fools.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Both Rees-Mogg and Lying Johnson have criticised May for talking to Corbyn. If they had voted for her deal in the first place the UK would now be out of the EU. Right-wing conservatives have nobody to blame but themselves for what is happening. Instead, all we get is moaning, whingeing and whining from these self-pitying, self-indulgent wastes of space.

Still, May is unlikely to give any ground at all to Corbyn and we will soon be back to voting on her original deal yet again.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

@Scrote

Both Rees-Mogg and Lying Johnson have criticised May for talking to Corbyn. If they had voted for her deal in the first place the UK would now be out of the EU.

I don't believe this is correct. Even if all of the Brexiteer Tories had voted for May's deal, there still wouldn't have been enough in number.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

I don't believe this is correct. Even if all of the Brexiteer Tories had voted for May's deal, there still wouldn't have been enough in number.

In the second vote (lost by 391 to 242 votes) 75 conservatives voted against the deal. If all those 75 had voted for the deal the result would have been 317 to 316 in favour. Therefore it is correct to say that the conservatives have only themselves to blame for May's deal failing to pass. But instead of accepting that, all we get is moaning and whining from Lying Johnson and his fellow half-wits.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

You are right about the numbers, but you have forgotten that some non conservatives voted for May's deal. And I'm sorry to pick apart what you said, but you did say:

Right-wing conservatives have nobody to blame but themselves for what is happening.

Even if all of the "Right-wing" conservatives such as the ERG (Mogg and Johnson included) had voted for the deal, the remainer Tories (which are quite a few) still voted against May. So, even then, they would still have a right to moan.

To add to that, without the DUP, there was never any hope of getting the deal passed without the help of a substantial number of Labour votes.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Scrote's (correct) point is about Johnson and Rees-Mogg constantly and publicly criticising any of May's plans. Scrote was not trying to prove that Johnson and Rees-Mogg alone have halted Brexit, the point is that they have caused damage and encouraged others to follow suit in their own self-serving career interests.

Right wing Conservatives and right wing politicians have themselves to blame for wanting an impossible Brexit deal. Impossible because why should Brussels hand them the golden egg they desire.

Right wing voters also have themselves to blame for imagining such a ridiculous Brexit deal to be passed through government.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Except.....that's exactly what Scrote said:

 If they had voted for her deal in the first place the UK would now be out of the EU. Right-wing conservatives have nobody to blame but themselves for what is happening.

You're rowing around in circles again TigersTokyoDome:

 the point is that they have caused damage and encouraged others to follow suit in their own self-serving career interests.

It is a moot point. If Mogg, Johnson and all other Tory Brexiteers had supported May's deal from the beginning, and had sung its praises, and even drummed up support, it still would have failed.

As Scrote pointed out, with all Tories on board it would have been 317 to 316 in favour. However, there are still Tory MPs who are not Brexiteers but who are Hard-Remainers, who also hate Johnson and Mogg, and who didn't support May's deal.

It still wouldn't have passed.

And in anycase, May's deal is not Brexit. It is just Remain without any say in how the rules are made. That is why Hard-Remainers in the Tory party voted against it.

 Right wing Conservatives and right wing politicians have themselves to blame for wanting an impossible Brexit deal. Impossible because why should Brussels hand them the golden egg they desire.

Why is a WTO exit impossible?

 Right wing voters also have themselves to blame for imagining such a ridiculous Brexit deal to be passed through government.

Have themselves to blame? Voters (leavers and remainers) overwhelmingly didn't/don't want May's deal.

A WTO exit doesn't need to be passed through parliament. That is voters want, and it is also the most popular type exit supported by what you deem "right wing" conservatives.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Tangerine

"And that is the real problem colleagues, why there is such a problem in this crisis, because member states are reluctant to transfer new sovereignty and powers to the European Union, and we know that the only way out of this crisis is a new transfer of powers to the European Union and to the European Instituions."

And exactly what's this got to do with the price of bread?!

This deals with sovereignty pooling, something alien to most brexiteers; you already have to pool sovereignty in organisations like NATO.

The fact that sovereignty is transferred doesn't mean it cannot be recalled once "dispensed with".

But don't worry; you're not alone in your "confusion"; you've got Farage, Gove, BJ et al alongside you. Clueless, all of them.

European Union Act 2011

s.18

Status of EU law dependent on continuing statutory basis

"Directly applicable or directly effective EU law (that is, the rights, powers, liabilities, obligations, restrictions, remedies and procedures referred to in section 2(1) of the European Communities Act 1972) falls to be recognised and available in law in the United Kingdom only by virtue of that Act or where it is required to be recognised and available in law by virtue of any other Act."

Went out my way, all the way to Westlaw (as I know you'll not have access); section 18 is in full force; all updated on Noter-Up (surely you'll know what I'm talking about).

If you're not sure what this section means, ask your learned JT "expert" friends.

However, I can tell give a summation :

s.18 is makes it clear in that ANY EU legis, is only applicable in the UK, via a British national statute:

1) The European Communities Act 1972 made legal provisions for UK's access to the then EEC; an act of the British Parliament. Sovereignty at work.

2) The British Parliament must enact legislation to implement EU into domestic Law -Sovereignty at work.

3.) All "transfer of sovereignty" to EU institutions are capable of "repatriation"; this is due to the British Parliament's inherent sovereignty powers -Sovereignty at work

4) The Great Repeal Bill 2018 is another act of the British Parliament-this shows that Parliament is sovereign and capable of enacting legislation to remove the UK from the EU; if Parliament was not sovereign, or if transfer of powers were final, and conclusive, then the UK would be barred from enacting any Repeal Bill.

Lastly, Parliament is voting, as we speak on a second referendum; you'll be lucky if you come out with a Brexino.

Get ready to vote again.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@PeepingTom

Thanks for the info. I'll have a good look at it.

I have to ask. Why do you keep saying JT "expert"? Do you think I am a mod?

If not, as I said before, if you keep using quotation marks that way, it makes you look like you have an attitude.

You sound quite young, and if so (and if not), I'd turn down the smugness if I were you.

An hint to you: I spent many years studying it; therefore I should know better than many.

there's no point wasting my Latin.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Even if all of the "Right-wing" conservatives such as the ERG (Mogg and Johnson included) had voted for the deal, the remainer Tories (which are quite a few) still voted against May. So, even then, they would still have a right to moan.

But it's still the case that Jacob "Jackboots" Rees-Mogg and Lying Johnson did not vote for the deal: they preferred grandstanding and posturing to delivering what "the British people" voted for. They had two chances to vote for the deal; they voted against it; they have no right to whine like spoilt children now. Not that that will stop them.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

But it's still the case that Jacob "Jackboots" Rees-Mogg and Lying Johnson did not vote for the deal:

They both voted for the deal the third time.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Tangerine's posts sum up how Brexit got into such a monumental mess.

Have themselves to blame? Voters (leavers and remainers) overwhelmingly didn't/don't want May's deal.

A WTO exit doesn't need to be passed through parliament. That is voters want, and it is also the most popular type exit supported by what you deem "right wing" conservatives.

Voters were misled by the Tories but they were also stupid enough to believe the likes of Farage, Johnson, and Rees-Mogg. If you listen to right wingers trying to place the blame on Syrian refugees, what do you expect.

Like I said, at least Theresa May is trying to get some kind of deal through.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Voters were misled by the Tories but they were also stupid enough to believe...

Why is it that time after time on these articles that people who support remaining (not all) boil their argument down to "leave voters are stupid"?

I don't agree with people who want to remain, but I don't feel a need to call them stupid.

Tiger, if you genuinely feel this way, I don't think you can be reasonable about the debate.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Look. It's quite simple. In response to the question do we wish to remain in the UK, the populace answered with "No".

The problem is, no one bothered to ask why? So the Parliamentarians have been left trying to figure this out themselves, and have gotten into an awful muddle.

Remaining with Europe as is, will gradually negate the need for local Parliamentarians ... they will have have as much impact as the local Council has upon the way the Country operates. Which, in the European one rule fits all style, does not work for us, and as we're seeing elsewhere, does not fit others. Clouding this, has been an immigration issue - not from the Sub-African/Asian Countries but from our own Commonwealth - exemplified by the recent Windrush scandal. Sure, there's the complaints about Polish and Romanians (in particular) , but that's isolated.. all have fed into the big Europe issue... adding to that the huge amounts of cash that we have to pile into the European budget, it's given rise to the perfect storm of misinformation.

I personally feel that the UK would be better outside of the UK.... for numerous reasons. And if Ireland complains about the North, then the UK should either consider retaking Southern Ireland as part of the UK and resolve the matter forthright, or letting the North go. Rewed attacks on the UK by the "IRA" should be considered as an act of War by the South (which is Politically Supportive of that organization) and justifies the action of taking the South over. (Which sort of makes the UK's soft touch to Israel understandable).

Ireland (the South) also needs to consider their own standing within the EU, which, if you actually look at the existing "Schengen agreement" - makes it look like Europe has always considered Ireland as an 2nd class citizen.... (which is rather derogatory). Maybe a solution would be for Ireland to also exit the EU, ditch the remaining controversial Laws it has with the North, and unite, becoming as a whole, a Commonwealth member , and move on.

Though I guess such a suggestion would be like having Israel and Iran agree to live in peace....

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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