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Johnson plays Brexit hardball from a submarine base; pound tumbles

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By Russell Cheyne

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The 27 other EU members, though, say publicly and privately that the divorce settlement - including the backstop - is not up for barter. Many EU diplomats say they believe an election in Britain is highly likely.

So the EU countries are going to try and overthrow Boris. Interesting strategy. But what do they gain from their attempt to help generate further political instability in the UK? The people voted to leave. The Europhiles are acting like they don’t like the democratic process. Hmmm....

-18 ( +13 / -31 )

The people voted to leave

Non-binding referendum.

0 ( +16 / -16 )

Binding or non-binding is irrelevant since the government had promised to implement the result and the result was that the majority voted for Brexit.

6 ( +18 / -12 )

Binding or non-binding is irrelevant since the government had promised to implement the result and the result was that the majority voted for Brexit.

The promise was also non-binding.

3 ( +16 / -13 )

Binding or non-binding is irrelevant since the government had promised to implement the result and the result was that the majority voted for Brexit.

I’ve got sympathy for that but it’s worth remembering the leading figures in the leave campaign were not consistent on what the terms of leaving would be.

Johnson himself was lying about government spending after Brexit at that time.

14 ( +19 / -5 )

Boris Johnson: Making Britain England Again.

Put that on a hat...

18 ( +22 / -4 )

Like lots of thing this is another rich mans trick.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Boris "playing a hardball game"!

Well, maybe that's all it is for him.

But first of all he (too) should grow some balls!

The Brexit was decided and agrees upon, also the time frame.

So, finally go ahead!

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

Johnson also said that the Irish border backstop - designed to prevent the return of a hard border between Ireland and the United Kingdom's province of Northern Ireland - was "no good, it's dead, it's got to go".

Just you try, Mr Johnson.

You don't get to dictate to the EU or the Irish people. You're leaving, stop trying to put conditions in.

3 ( +12 / -9 )

The question of the unification of Ireland and British-ruled Northern Ireland will inevitably arise if Britain leaves the European Union without a divorce deal on Oct 31, Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar said.

It's risen much earlier than that, Taoiseach. Talk to your constituents, and not just the Fine Gael voters. The writing is literally on the wall.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

In other news:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/johnson-issues-ultimatum-eu-over-164811303.html

Who is he to demand something (from the EU)? How can he issue an ultimatum? I don't think he is in the position for this!

4 ( +9 / -5 )

Who is he to demand something (from the EU)? How can he issue an ultimatum? I don't think he is in the position for this!

"I'm going to break up with you. Now meet my demands, because I'm going to break up with you!"

11 ( +15 / -4 )

It's time Lying Johnson met some EU leaders instead of surrounding himself with toadies who only tell him what he wants to hear. If he wants a new deal why is he wasting time travelling around the UK talking rubbish?

5 ( +10 / -5 )

And the first domino has fallen...

4 ( +4 / -0 )

The people voted to leave

Non-binding referendum.

so the will of the people should be ignored? being pedantic doesn't change the fact that a majority of Brits wanted to leave the EU. isn't this how democracy is supposed to work? but yeah, let's quibble about the legality of the referendum instead.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

so the will of the people should be ignored?

It was a non-binding referendum.

You can complain about that all you want, but it doesn't change that it was a non-binding referendum.

2 ( +10 / -8 )

It was a non-binding referendum.

Not according to the Prime Minister at the time. During the lead up to the referendum, David Cameron made it perfectly clear:

“It is your decision. Not politicians. Not parliament. Just you. If we vote to leave, we will leave. There’ll not be another renegotiation or another referendum.”

3 ( +7 / -4 )

Why Boris thinks he's in a position to dictate terms (re brexit) is beyond me. Beggars can't be choosers.

Tbf, i think many brits (incl leavers) are starting to see through Boris' rubbish and know the bloke's all talk & bravado, no action.

You won't get a better deal with the EU (as non members) & keep all the benefits of membership for free, this won't happen.

3 ( +9 / -6 )

The EU is speaking with a forked tongue. How can they say they support a backstop but at the same time use it to force UK back into a customs union?

A Hard Border is a dangerous throwback, and the EU have to remember the lives lost and the instability that a hard border brings.

I don't know what BoJo means by this "backstop.....no good, it's dead, it's got to go"; Everyone must proceed on the basis of no hard border, whether it's by a backstop or other means. Is Bojo prepared for a hard border as well?

0 ( +6 / -6 )

Not according to the Prime Minister at the time. During the lead up to the referendum, David Cameron made it perfectly clear:

And yet, it was a non-binding referendum nevertheless.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

@Wolfpack

So the EU countries are going to try and overthrow Boris. Interesting strategy. But what do they gain from their attempt to help generate further political instability in the UK? The people voted to leave. The Europhiles are acting like they don’t like the democratic process. Hmmm....

No, the EU countries are not going to try and overthrow Boris, nor are they preventing Britain from leaving the EU. They're simply saying that there is no room for negotiation on issues such as the backstop - as is their right. Britain is free to walk away without a deal if the deal is unacceptable.

I suspect the likeliest outcome is a no-deal Brexit on October 31st, quickly followed by Boris being "overthrown" in a general election.

5 ( +9 / -4 )

Tbf, i think many brits (incl leavers) are starting to see through Boris' rubbish and know the bloke's all talk & bravado, no action.

Johnson has been a running joke for the majority of the country for a long time. I honestly don’t think many minds have changed or will change now he’s showboating as PM.

Some of the people who elected him are the types who write into the Daily Mail informing us how a country who stood up to Napoleon and Hitler can see off these continental bureaucrats. Some of them have a soft spot for Nigel ‘no policies but tells it like it is’ Farage who might make St George’s Day a bank holiday and reintroduce smoking in the ale house.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Strangerland, with whom I have "sparred" plenty of times is absolutely correct on this one; Brexit was advisory, without legally binding force.

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIroSalbbb4wIVw7HtCh04bA-3EAAYAyAAEgJ_6vD_BwE

3 ( +6 / -3 )

@Crazy Joe

make Britain England Again

That doesn't quite work. Britain isn't a country, it's the name of the island. England has never become Britain, England (with the principality of Wales at that time) when unified with Scotland became "The United Kingdom of Great Britain"

You could say:

Make the UK England Again

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

He clearly has no idea what the backstop is, or why it is necessary. Did he even know that Northern Ireland is part of the UK?

4 ( +7 / -3 )

@nakanoguy01Today  09:16 am JST

The people voted to leave

so the will of the people should be ignored?

The Scottish voted to remain.

so the will of the Scottish should be ignored?

@CrazyJoe

Boris Johnson: Making Britain England Again.

Very well observed.

I thought we had this topic and discussion twice already? Is this some sort of personal data mining test where they track our posts to see how consistent we are?

a) Leave did not just made false promises, it broke electoral law.

b) No one actually knew what deal or no deal they were voting for.

c) It's dubious whether the moron element understand a thing about European governance, or any governance for that matter. "Europe" used to be where they went to get drunk on cheap beer but now the Pound has dropped so far, they soon won't be able to. They were just voting on a patriotic, anti-foreigner position because they believe it will make them "free" again, when actually it's really only about the wealthy upper classes being free from European regulation and oversight, and free to exploit said morons.

Except for the foreign-immigrant communities in England who were voting against White Europeans coming in ... so they could migrant in more colored foreigners from the [Trump's favorite description]holes, the native moron element hated even more.

Bet's are against the Pound and it's being predicted to drop to parity with the Dollar, that's 50% down on what it was since this thing start ... and they still don't see what's happening.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

At the time of the referendum, it was widely assumed that the UK would remain in the customs union or single market. So much so that the Irish border was not an issue. The common assumption was that the UK would become Norway, not Russia. Farage even spoke in favour of Norway.

Johnson has a majority of under three MPs. He can say what he likes, and probably has to because bravado is his only selling point, but is currently in no position to make no deal happen. Bigger developments than Johnson opening his mouth are needed for the UK to get there.

As for Scotland/N. Ireland, any UK Prime Minister who splits the country up automatically becomes the worst PM in history. Cameron and May have sown the seeds, but there is a still a way to go.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

"The Referendum wasn't legally binding"

Meaning: I don't like the result, but had it been a vote for remain, we would need to respect the result.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

Strangerland, with whom I have "sparred" plenty of times is absolutely correct on this one; Brexit was advisory, without legally binding force.

Well that won’t make much difference at the end of October. One way or another Brexit will happen. Throw out Boris if they want - the deed will be done.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

You could say:

Make the UK England Again

Do you think a WTO Brexit ( or any form of Brexit ) will hasten the break up of the UK? I’m convinced it will, and as far as I know, Johnson and Farage are in favour of preserving the union.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Johnson has been a running joke for the majority of the country for a long time.

Possibly, but according to YouGov he's still UK's most popular conservative (around 30-35%). That's a pretty substantial minority.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Boris_Johnson

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Johnson and Farage are not in favour of preserving anything except themselves.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Meaning: I don't like the result, but had it been a vote for remain, we would need to respect the result.

Meaning the non-binding referendum was non-binding.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@Jimizo

No, I don't.

However, I am of the opinion that we need to start thinking that the UK isn't beneficial to the British people anymore. If the Scottish want independence, they should have it. Likewise for the Northern Irish. Wales doesn't seem too intrested in it at the moment.

England cannot be a scapegoat for everyone forever. Ever since the last Scottish Indy Ref, more and more English people are starting to think that if they are despised so much, it might be better to go their separate ways.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

"Meaning the non-binding referendum was non-binding."

To paraphrase another poster:

"Johnson has a majority of under three MPs. He can say what he likes, and probably has to because bravado is his only selling point, but is currently in no position to make no deal happen. Bigger developments than Johnson opening his mouth are needed for the UK to get there."

I never plagiarised at Uni, but love this one.

Sorry, I had o "borrow" this one.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Tangerine @10.27am, spot on.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

History has shown that when governments or dictators attempt to thwart the will of the people that revolutions take place. This is what is happening now in the UK, if Brexit does not take place then there will be some type of revolution

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

@Tangerine2000

Regardless of what you think of the benefit of the union itself, I don’t see how you think Brexit will not affect the union. The SNP have seized on it and the idea of NI out of the union is a reality. Please tell us how Brexit isn’t fueling this.

Come on, I know you are a staunch supporter of a WTO Brexit but let’s be honest about the ramifications.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

PM Bozo was part of the conservative government which reduced the size of the Royal Navy from a fleet of 150 ship to about 75. Many destroyers and fregates are in docks for repairs. The Royal Navy is no longer able to protect British interests overseas such as ships in the Gulf of Oman probably not even the English Channel.

Now Bozo visits the nulcear submarine base at Faslane, he's the new guy with his finger on the nuclear button in the event of a Russian nuclear attack. If Scotland was no longer part of the UK the location of the Faslane base would be a major problem and would have to be moved within the UK.

Scotland does not have its own navy or military and an independent Scotland would have to build one.

The high road remains a stoney one and something like 92 days for the journey's end.

The UK will leave the EU before Scotland is allowed another referendum on independence and probably even a general election before that too.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@Jimizo

If there is another EU ref, there would be demands for a second Scottish Indy ref. So, I would say reversing Brexit opens up a higher possibility of the UK breaking up.

As I said yesterday, Sturgeon hasn't had any pressure from those in the SNP who don't want to be/join the EU. A large percentage of the Scottish people don't want to gain independence from the UK, to then surrender it to the EU.

The Republic of Ireland and the EU keep talking about Northern Ireland breaking away from the UK, but a majority of the Northern Irish themselves still don't want a poll on the issue.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

I have also noticed that many people are saying "Boris doesn't have the ability to make no-deal happen".

He doesn't need to do anything, it is the legal default position in statute law. Unless Parliament accept another deal, or revoke Article 50, or they modify the current statute law, no-deal is going to happen. The problem for Parliament is that they cannot get a majority for any of these. So, no-deal is quite likely.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

If there is another EU ref, there would be demands for a second Scottish Indy ref. So, I would say reversing Brexit opens up a higher possibility of the UK breaking up.

Strange reasoning. Another EU referendum would undoubtedly see a majority of Scots vote remain, confirming what happened in 2016. Sturgeon has been selling the fact the majority of Scots voted remain. She was talking about this only a few days ago. Brexit is fueling this right now. Talk of what a second referendum would do is not the point.

By ‘a large percentage’ of the Scottish people, do you mean a ‘a large minority’? I’m not being pedantic here, but I think ‘minority’ is a more suitable and accurate word to use here as politicians do study the numbers. Sturgeon certainly does.

Let’s just be honest about what the ramifications of Brexit are. It can’t be all good.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

If some of the conservatives leave the party and change sides and a vote of no confidence is called the government would lose and have to call a general election. A no deal happening will be avoided in that case and an extension once again asked for.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

@Jimizo

It's not so strange:

Majority of Scottish people want to remain in the EU

Majority of Scottish people don't want to leave the UK

Majority of SNP member want to leave the UK

Around 40% of SNP members don't want to be in/join the EU

Sturgeon has had the luxury of portraying Scotland as having no choice (although it did choose to remain in the UK in 2014). If the UK leaves the EU, she will have a very difficult time selling independence on the basis of the following:

Scotland is planing to leave a UK which is no longer in the EU -

At least 40% of SNP member wouldn't want to join the EU

Average Scots who want to stick with the UK instead of joining the EU

Average Scots who don't think joining the EU is a good idea

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

Tangerine2000

However, I am of the opinion that we need to start thinking that the UK isn't beneficial to the British people anymore

Mistake because all UK people are British the two are not separate. Do you mean English people who live in England?

Scotland is a very important part of the UK and provides England with many resources such as water, oil, salmon, beef, nuclear energy, nuclear submrine base, clean air when it blows south, Scotch and malts not to say the least.

Can a twist of wanting to remain in the EU be turned into an independent Scotland, I don't know on that. Which matters more to the Scots, remaining in the UK or remaining in the EU?

The Scottish politicians want independence but probably the Scots would choose the UK over the EU.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@Zichi

Do you mean...?

No, Zichi. I mean British people, as in "The English, The Scottish and The Welsh". I'd also include the people of Northern Ireland (although people argue that it's not part of Britain and therefore the people aren't 'British').

I am not talking about the natural resources or commerce of the UK. I'm talking about the people. The Scots feel 'trapped' by England. The Northern Irish feel like they are piggy in the middle between Westminster and Dublin. The English feel hated by everyone. Only the Welsh are sitting in the background, quietly getting on with life.

If the people of these nations as a whole don't feel united and part of the something bigger, it'll just lead to more resentment.

There are some in England who argue that the Barnett Formaila shows how much England is propping up the other nations. (But I know.....Scotland = oil / nuclear base etc)

I agree with you about Scotland, though. I think they would choose the UK over the EU.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

If some of the conservatives leave the party and change sides and a vote of no confidence is called the government would lose and have to call a general election. A no deal happening will be avoided in that case and an extension once again asked for.

On this point you are correct about having an election, but no-deal wouldn't be avoided because the soonest an election can be held now is October 31st. No extension would be granted, because the Prime Minister remains in office until a new Government is formed.

If you want to know why an election can't be called sooner, have a look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_8AgpHQh48

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Brexit was a con, the British people were conned and lied to with the facts, leaving the EU , rich boys folly, Johnson and Farage, a huge egotistical trip of their own making. They don't give a damn about the British people or the effects it will have. The possibility of Scottish independence looms even closer, there are the people in Ireland who are dreading a border and a return to the troubles of the past, and there are the forgotten expats pensioners who have seen their pensions dwindle 25-30 percent since the Brexit result, me being one of them. With the added insult that by living in Japan, doesn't entitle me to the annual inflation or wage growth increase, so also seeing a seven year loss of increases. Staying in the EU would have been a better option, at least the UK, had, as a major member a better chance of enacting law and rule changes. Now looking a the UK from afar, I don't have much hope for a successful end to johnson and Farage's folly, only a disaster for the people the UK.

6 ( +10 / -4 )

Its true that Brexit has done more in the history of the country to divide the nation, even divide families. The politicians have not helped reach a conclusion in a short period but instead have dragged it out for their own political agendas. The politicians from all sides care more about their own parties than what is best for the people. Sad state of affairs. So much time and effort spent on it.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

Soon it will be time to sell the mamachari and invest in some Mayfair properties.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I can see this ending in a no-deal. It's possible that the EU will get spooked last minute and decide to make a somewhat acceptable deal, but I think it's much more likely that they'll stubbornly stick to their guns, forcing us to do the same in order to avoid a bad deal. I don't think Scotland will go independent, but it's tricky to say. Opinions seem to be rather divided up there, but I think they'll realise that, in the long run, it won't be worthwhile, that it'll just end up causing too many problems to be truly beneficial. Hopefully Johnson and Sturgeon will reach an agreement to smooth out the ties between Scotland and England.

why is he wasting time travelling around the UK

That's generally what new leaders do. They tour the country they've been put in charge of, meeting with the people and elected officials to speak about their plans going forward and to try and dispel concerns. All leaders do it. Well, except dictators.

a) Leave did not just made false promises

The Remain side are equally guilty of this, but the Leave side get more stick for it due to one particular misunderstanding. The misunderstanding was on the part of the general public, who seemed to forget what the word "could" means.

b) No one actually knew what deal or no deal they were voting for

Actually, many Leave voters did know. I'm not able to give specific numbers, but I've spoken with a great many who knew what they were voting for and roughly what kind of deal or no-deal would entail.

They were just voting on a patriotic, anti-foreigner position because they believe it will make them "free" again

I won't deny that there were a small number who voted Leave on such reasons, but the figure was just that: small. It only seemed larger because sensationalist Anti-Brexit newspapers (namely the Daily Mirror) exaggerated things. Most Leave voters chose that option because they were tired of EU governence, its unnecessary regulations, its trade restrictions, and the fact that we were paying so much for a union we never actually voted to join (we voted to join the Single Market only. At the time, we rejected joining the EU as a full member, but later we were slipped in as such without a vote).

Wales doesn't seem too intrested in it at the moment.

A few thousand in North Wales participated in a March for Independence over the weekend, but overall Wales wants to stay in the UK, especially in southern Wales where they depend on freedom of movement between Wales and England, which would be complicated by Welsh Independence.

Things were always going to look rough. There's no avoiding that in a situation like this, but nothing lasts forever. We'll get through this as long as we're willing to co-operate. The problem is that people (mostly politicians) prefer to fight over their own agendas and remain divided, than work together. Politics in a nutshell really.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

There is no future, democratically for the UK, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as part of a federal European bureaucracy. Has the EU commission politically, not learnt anything from the fall of the Soviet Union?

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Hedge funds are short positioning against sterling, it's time for the UK government to deliver a bloody nose.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

There is no future, democratically for the UK, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as part of a federal European bureaucracy. Has the EU commission politically, not learnt anything from the fall of the Soviet Union?

Putin is loving all this infighting and in some ways directly help to make these problems manifest just like in the US. He wants the EU to fall because he wants Russia to return to its former glory, and he doesn't want the former Soviet nations to gravitate to the EU. He is trying to coerce these former Soviet satellites to return to his new Soviet Union 2.0. China is doing the same thing!

This Brexit situation has Putin jumping for joy!

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@Wolfpack

So the EU countries are going to try and overthrow Boris. Interesting strategy. But what do they gain from their attempt to help generate further political instability in the UK? The people voted to leave. The Europhiles are acting like they don’t like the democratic process. Hmmm....

Your logic has failed you. Strawman argument! EU isn't renegotiating the agreement already made. They have no reason to renegotiate. If the UK wants to leave then they can, but they must also follow the rules of the agreement. The EU has been the only professional party in these negotiations. UK government has been trying to con the EU like they have done with their own people. Unfortunately, for the UK government, the EU leaders are not that ignorant!

The EU leaders also believe Boris is another idiot like Dump, so failure is imminent, and they predict that a general election will be called as a result.

You are welcome!

5 ( +5 / -0 )

This isn’t just about Brexit now. The Torys are so riven by division and the coup by the ERG that they are close implosion. Boris has less interest in getting out of the EU in October than in keeping the party together and staying in power. He is positioning himself for a general election by buying the North and trying to show the EU’s consistency and solidarity as intransigence.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@pacificwest

It's dubious whether the moron element understand a thing about European governance, or any governance for that matter. "Europe" used to be where they went to get drunk on cheap beer...

For the past three years those that voted to remain have repeated, again and again, this idea that leavers are all "morons", far too uneducated to be allowed to have their vote count. I think it is one of the reasons why the country is still just as divided, because for three years the losers in the referendum have been insulting and belittleing those that won (and doing everything they can to block the will of the people).

It's not even as if the insults have any merit. Ask the average remainer how the EU works (the body they are so keen to give law-making powers to), and they don't have a clue. But I won't stoop so low as to call them morons, they are not.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

It was said, and it will be: Boris will be the last PM of the UK, because the UK will no longer exist during the time he is PM. About time the remnants of the empire fell. How small England will become... and all because a bunch of insecure racists shouted how big they wanted it to be.

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

Silvafan is right in that the winners here are Russia and the US. Euroskepticism in the UK is as old as the hills, but others have been stoking it up to weaken the UK and set it up for plundering. See Cambridge Analytica for starters.

SwissToni is right in that the Tories want to be in power, but I think they've given up on creating any kind of consensus toward keeping the party together. Johnson's cabinet is not an attempt at unity. It is very rare for so many ministers to be sacked at the same time. Johnson did it after simply being chosen as Tory leader, he has no personal mandate from UK voters themselves.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Hedge funds are short positioning against sterling, it's time for the UK government to deliver a bloody nose.

They're betting against the Pound Sterling on the very basis that it looks as though the UK is heading towards a no deal crash-out. No deal will deliver the UK a bloody nose, break its limbs and rupture its internal organs.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

@Smithinjapan

How small England will become... and all because a bunch of insecure racists shouted how big they wanted it to be.

I do feel sorry for you. If you genuinely believe this, you are going to have a horrible 2019, 2020, 2021 etc

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

You believe that, seriously Sneezy?

Why do your think a hedge fund would position a short?

Think about it.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

How small England will become?

The physical size of England won't change regardless of what happens with the EU/UK. The borders have been the same for hundreds of years.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

The pound has crashed against the Euro, it will cost the Brits much more on their summer hol's with prices increasing five times.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The pound has crashed against the Euro, it will cost the Brits much more on their summer hol's with prices increasing five times.

If I was a gambling man I would put my dollars and yen into pounds now. The pound is a solid currency and will bounce back.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

How small England will become... and all because a bunch of insecure racists shouted how big they wanted it to be.

Not all were racists although it’s fair to say the lion’s share of racists voted out.

The right like to argue it was a smack in the face of the left although many on the left voted for it.

There are lots of people offering simple explanations for Brexit. The simpler they get, the more inaccurate they are.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

If I was a gambling man I would put my dollars and yen into pounds now

This isn’t my area of expertise but there are plenty predicting the pound to sink even further.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The pound is a solid currency and will bounce back.

Well, it has been. But the strength of a currency is in the confidence of it's buyers in that currency, and Britain isn't doing much to inspire confidence at the moment. And leaving the EU doesn't inspire much either.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Johnson's bet is that the threat of a no-deal Brexit will persuade the EU's biggest powers - Germany and France - to agree to revise the Withdrawal Agreement that Theresa May agreed but failed three times to push through the British parliament.

And why did this deal fail to get through Parliament three times? Because it sucks!

Did the British people not vote to leave the EU? Get it done already - screw the globalists in Brussels.

Guess we have to wait 2 more months before Halloween. Boris Johnson mask sales are going to go through the roof, haha

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

Putin must be thrilled to watch Boris ruin Britain.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

The pound has crashed against the Euro, it will cost the Brits much more on their summer hol's with prices increasing five times.

not sure about your maths

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The pound sank to a 28-month low against the dollar as Boris Johnson's government toughened its rhetoric on Brexit.

Sterling suffered today, at the worst possible time for holidaymakers, as the probability of leaving the EU without a deal rises. It dropped to its lowest level versus the dollar since the Article 50 process began in March 2017, just about staying above $1.22.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49156403

2 ( +2 / -0 )

And why did this deal fail to get through Parliament three times? Because it sucks!

Because it had to be voted on. This is exactly the problem that Johnson now faces, with the additional difficulty that he hasn't even got a deal to place before Parliament. He has to actually go out and make one, rather than just promising everything and nothing. In vastly more capable hands, that might be achievable, but this sort of thing really isn't Johnson's skill set. Smirking is not statesmanship, and the world is not Eton.

If he tries to hammer through no deal without a parliamentary vote, he will be dumped. You're presumably unaware of this, as your understanding of British politics seems close to nonexistent, but Prime Ministers are as likely to be forced to resign by their own party as to be defeated in a general election. It happened to Cameron, May, Thatcher, and Blair. It particularly happens to Conservative Prime Ministers.

The key difference between the people I mention above and Johnson is that Johnson's survival for even half a year looks doubtful from the start. An upheaval of the scale guaranteed by the looming deadline and his undeniable inability to secure a new deal in the next 3 months will see him crapped out of No. 10 so fast he'll be catapulted into the wall across the street.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Wipeout,

No-deal is the legal default. Boris DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING to make it happen. He can sit on his hands for 2 months and it will happen.

Parliament has to STOP IT from happening by revoking Article 50, modifying the current statute law or passing a new statute law.

If he tries to hammer through no deal without a parliamentary vote, he will be dumped.

He doesn't need a parliamentary vote. Parliament has already voted for and passed Article 50 twice.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Did the British people not vote to leave the EU?

In any democratic election or referendum the people should always get what the majority vote for, right?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Posing at a submarine base, are any of them yellow? Total posturing, man.This whole Brexit farce just popped up out of the blue a few years ago and internet media pundits have been haggling and 'predicting' this and that and talking loud without knowing anything and still saying nothing. This whole business looks like one big sham.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

All cricket balls are hard, and bluff is part of the game. Only rounders uses a softball.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@1glenn

Putin must be thrilled to watch Boris ruin Britain.

News out today, it appears that the whole "Trump-Russia" investigation was initiated by British Intelligence's concern (GCHQ) that the EU referendum was so surprising that they considered the nation had been victim to Russian meddling

As I read it, there's no evidence presented that it had

@Tokyo-m

For the past three years those that voted to remain have repeated, again and again, this idea that leavers are all "morons", far too uneducated to be allowed to have their vote count. 

Meanwhile the Pound has dropped, what, 30c on the Dollar and 20c on the Euro and is heading downards, was that clever? Fine for the morons who never go abroad, but they'll soon be feeling it as the price of all their purchases rise.

You're doing a little fast footwork here. Are we talking about some Leavers, all Leavers, the bottom end of the Leave the camp, or who?

I was speaking about the very top (the rich and their bankers) and bottom end, the racists and bigots, the latter of whom made up the easily manipulated majority without any real clue about the issues involved, or indeed governance itself, easily manipulated by flag waving patriotism, islamophobia, racism, xenophobia and so on.

Could there be an intelligent, informed element within the Leave camp? Perhaps, but in that arena it would then come down to either

a) a question of faith - as in a belief in and commitment to a "British project", versus a belief in and commitment to the "Europe Project", or

b) perceived self-interests that, largely, boil down to money.

Although, I suppose a few of "the informed" mght also not like so many foreigners coming into the country.

As I understand, for the financial elite, it has driven by the desire to be free from the European regulation and oversight - in everything from banking, to employment law, to privatization etc - that are in the interest of the lower working classes and, very specifically, protecting Europeans and British from American interests (neocon or neoliberalist).

99% of the discussion was just about lying and manipulating the population in order to achieve the result (minus any foreign intervention).

The theory is, Russia sees it in its interests to weak and fracture both EU and NATO. I have no idea how true that is.

What is the UK's relationship with the US? How and why has it become America's little laptop running off to fight its wars, following its politics?

I can't remember if it was here I wrote - as so many posts are censored out - that the current international wave of nationalistic popularism is going to lead us to the end of our current form of democracy.

And, yes, how could people who could not even read an international treaty, or know what it contained, make an informed decision about highly unpredictable subjects, like economics, that they know abosolutely nothing about?

Was your average "Muslim invader" hating "Little Englander" really voting about the legal and economic implications of the decision, or was it just about keeping foreigners out?

I would say it was about the latter, which is a different question.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

starpunkToday  10:52 pm JST

Posing at a submarine base, are any of them yellow? Total posturing, man.This whole Brexit farce just popped up out of the blue a few years ago and internet media pundits have been haggling and 'predicting' this and that and talking loud without knowing anything and still saying nothing. This whole business looks like one big sham.

It was a tactic that backfired. David Cameron called the 2016 referendum to shut up the Eurosceptics in the Conservative Party, thinking that it would result in a vote to stay in the EU. So did the pro-Brexit campaign leaders, although they conned the people who voted leave into thinking they knew what they were doing.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

There was a case in the papers recently of a man racially abusing a Black woman who told her, "Once Brexit happens, you'll be out of the country".

That's the sort of level I am talking about.

The joke is, if less Europeans come to the UK to work, or there is a continuation of the exodus, more Black people will be brought in to take their place.

I hope Japan is studying all this and learning from it.

I would also hope the Japanese government is exploring a deeper relationship with the UK that would allow more Japanese immigration, but I don't see any sign of that.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

pacificwest

There was a case in the papers recently of a man racially abusing a Black woman who told her, "Once Brexit happens, you'll be out of the country".

Which paper would that be?

The joke is, if less Europeans come to the UK to work, or there is a continuation of the exodus, more Black people will be brought in to take their place.

Do you have a problem with black people?

I hope Japan is studying all this and learning from it.

And what would Japan gain from the learning?

I would also hope the Japanese government is exploring a deeper relationship with the UK that would allow more Japanese immigration, but I don't see any sign of that.

There are about 60 Japanese living in the UK far more than the number of Brits living in Japan. I think about 15,000.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Correction

There are about 60,OOO Japanese living in the UK far more than the number of Brits living in Japan. I think about 15,000.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@zichi

There are about 60,OOO Japanese living in the UK far more than the number of Brits living in Japan. I think about 15,000.

Clearly not enough. And what's the population of Japan in comparison to the UK?

Here's a conundrum for the would be liberals.

If you were the prime minister of England, or Scotland, and you had to bring in 100,000 new immigrants, who would you choose, Jamaicans and Nigerians, or Japanese?

Both are "foreign", so that precludes racism.

I'd say, 9 out of 10 would choose Japanese, and 1 out of 10 would be lying.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Does this mean I'll be able to visit Amsterdam without a bunch of drunk hooligans taking up all the seats at the bars and cafes? Hmmmm... perhaps Brexit isn't such bad thing. Not for everyone, at least.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Does this mean I'll be able to visit Amsterdam without a bunch of drunk hooligans taking up all the seats at the bars and cafes?

No they'll simply be paying a lot more for their beer weed and whores as the pound collapses.

I agree I only speak French or try my hand in flemmish when in Holland, so embarassing it is to be British...

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

What’s the difference between Dutch in Holland and Flemish in Belgium, Madverts?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

pacificwest

If Abe was to drop in for a chat tomorrow, I'd advise him to use very specific contracted migrant labor where they think they really need to, as in; "you come, you work, you get paid, you leave ... no marriages, no right to stay, no bringing in your family" and so on.

Well, luckily Abe is probably not going to listen to your genius immigration ideas and look to economics instead.

The fact is that immigration overwhelmingly leads to wealth creation in countries that admit immigrants. This has been proven. London's financial powerhouse was built by immigrants as was America's tech industry.

In Japan's case, with a shrinking population, increased immigration is a necessity. And how would Japan expect to lure migrants by not allowing the migrants rights to settle and marry? Your genius is unfathomable.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

"Which paper would that be?"

"Pensioner fined £600 after telling black woman 'when Brexit comes you will be gone'"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-hate-crime-black-woman-gone-london-pensioner-a8983321.html

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

@2020hindsights

Well, luckily Abe is probably not going to listen to your genius immigration ideas and look to economics instead.

The fact is that immigration overwhelmingly leads to wealth creation in countries that admit immigrants. This has been proven. London's financial powerhouse was built by immigrants as was America's tech industry.

There's immigration and immigration.

You can't bundle in Frankfurt bankers, Scandinavian technocrats and Roma sleeping in the streets on their seasonal pickpocketing and begging ventures which is what those who peddle that line do.

(Oops, the latter is perfectly true and objective, but the last time I mention that my post was censored).*

The bankers and technocrats are disproportionately profitable import; the vagrants, human traffickers, the gangs, the unemployable and criminal elements are all disproportionately unprofitable.

Then, to further develop the cost-benefit analysis, not all of the costs - in fact pretty much none of the costs of immigration gone bad are included. They just get bundled into the general costs of society; policing, incarceration, medical costs.

Then, what societies should do but do not is to extend the analysis of all cost, the social externalities of what I described as "disparate and often conflicting cultures".

That takes the calculation beyond all financially calculatable costs, that could go as far as the personal costs of the victims of new, mass immigration, to those that have a real mental, emotional and physical cost ... but are not obviously financial.

For examples, when you dump a noisy culture into a quiet culture, when you dump a disorderly culture into a clean and orderly culture, when you dump a morally ambiguous or even criminal culture into a law abiding respectful culture, when you dump an uneducated culture into schools already stretched to their limits, when you dump backward cultures into highly refined and developed one (eg like someone mentioned, drunken Englishmen in Holland), and so on.

There are elements promoting multi-culturalism and diversity internationally as if they are in themselves "good things" and avoiding factoring in any of the real world costs. Indeed, even supressing discussion of it. They tend to be the Center Left leaning political parties who have strategized that by bundling in these disparate and often conflicting cultures, appearing to their champions and even inviting more in, in the hope they will be elected by them.

As a policy, it has failed. It has failed to get the proponents and theorists elected, and failed to create good societies, and it has led to the current reactionary swing to the nationalistic Right among the disinfranchised working class. And, what we tend to see is that one new immigrants "get some stuff" - money, property, power - a proportion tend to swing to the Right too.

It's also based on a chimera, a dangerous delusion, that economic growth - money people making money - is the most important factor, rather than economic sustainability and quality of life for a nation's existing citizens.

Those citizens and their families who actually made the nation.

Now, apply this to Japan. Japan does not need to keep economically growing. It should prioritize remaining stable, becoming sustainability in all ways, and on maintaining the quality of life for its existing citizens.

In short, instead of following the social disasters playing out in Europe, it should work out a way to age gracefully and run its business down to a level it can sustain with the available population.

Economic league tables are worth zilch to anyone except, who? Economists?

('Vagrants from the east European country now make up a fifth of the London's homeless'

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/651441/Romanian-sleeping-rough-homeless-London-doubles-migrant-crisis)

0 ( +3 / -3 )

The problem is, whereas Capital can move over borders freely and multiply, taking up no more room than some space on a computer hard drive, Labor has very high costs attached. I think it works out to be about $250,000 per person.

That means, to bring one person in before they even start paying their way or earning the nation a profit, it costs $250,000 in terms of all the shared facilities and infrastructure they require and consumer to exist.

The question then is, what proprotion breaks even in their life time, what proprotion turns a profit, and what proprotion actually accounts for an even greater loss (most costs).

I think even you would admit that not all immigration breaks even and much of accounts for an even greater losses.

Unfortunately, that spread - to put it in economists' terms - is not an even Bell Curve in the middle.

What you end up with is a tiny minority making a disproportionate profit/bring benefit, and a huge dump at the other end of the scale creating a huge loss.

It is objectively fair to point out that the demographics of that spread have racial or cultural preponderances.

Let's try and apply that to Japan. In the current situation, most potential immigration to Japan is going to be Asian as it is ultimately attempt to exploit cheap labor. All Asians are essentiall the same "race", therefore we are discussing differences in cultures. Some nations and cultures might be good fits, others I'd rightly avoid like the plague, if I was Team Abe.

The so called "Liberals" who have signed up for "diversity is good", and the UN and so on, would have Japan accept their "fair share" of a total spread, including serious problem cases and entirely incompatible cultures. Unfortunately, the 'Idiot Left' in Japan have a tendency to mindless follow such fads, even though they are not yet proven.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

I don't disagree on the whole with your assessment; there's lots of pro and cons.

I personally welcome anybody, from anywhere, any colour, or shape.

But I think it's fundamentally wrong for a Brit to come to Japan and expect, even demand that Japan changes to accommodate him/her.

And this should resound everywhere on this planet. That immigrants should/must integrate or leave.

No ifs, and buts!

"('Vagrants from the east European country now make up a fifth of the London's homeless'

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/651441/Romanian-sleeping-rough-homeless-London-doubles-migrant-crisis)"

This could and should have been dealt with within the EU's Regulations, that provide for removal of undesirables, non-self sustainable citizens, including EU citizens.

Brexit idiots, not cognizant of EU's Regulations, went for the throat on this one, i.e. their own throat.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@Peeping Tom

This could and should have been dealt with within the EU's Regulations, that provide for removal of undesirables, non-self sustainable citizens, including EU citizens.

The UK cannot deport non-self sustainable EU citizens due to EU regulation. Whenever the UK tries to deport homeless indidviduals, the ECJ would rule that it is against their rights to have them removed from the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/14/home-office-policy-deport-eu-rough-sleepers-ruled-unlawful

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The pound is down?

Great!

More excellent deals for tourists and high quality services for less money!

More British people and foreigners on vacation in the UK helps to spread wealth around.

The UK is seen as a safe haven by many people. The housing market will rev up and house prices will increase.

More money for retirees downsizing their residences and hence increased ability to be self sufficient ie not rely so much on the state.

Many positives from this!

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@kurisupisu

The housing market will rev up and house prices will increase.

Is that a really good thing, and for whom?

Not the generations of British people who will never be able to own a house and never been offered social housing because the dwindling stock has been handed out to immigrants instead?

Bad example to choose.

The UK is experiencing a housing crisis partly due to pressure from the top, overseas investment in property because of the "safety" factor you mention; and pressure from the bottom, mass immigration filling up social and low value rental properties.

Yes, the economists love it, indeed it is designed into the economy as it gives the appearance of "growth", but there are multiple serious problems with regards homeless, overcrowding, inaffordability, wealthy areas being hollowed out by investors and the middle class being squeeze downwards and out.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

"She is right to think that we should be going for a deal, not no deal," Johnson said. "If our partners won't move, won't take out the backstop, won't even begin to change that Withdrawal Agreement, they won't compromise at all then of course we have got to get ready for no deal."

This is the real heart of it all, laid out for everyone to see. The question is, who will compromise? I think it will be the EU. I think they have more to lose than they care to admit. Peace.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Many positives from this!

weak pound isnt positive especially if all those factories move out of the UK into the EU. basically making all your energy and imports more expensive. I export to the UK from Japan and people seem to think that UKs prices will stay the same even with the pounds drop. Saw it when the pound crashed after the Brexit vote, prices stayed the same for around 3 months until importers ran out of stock , then there was a big price jump accross the board as their imports become considerable more expensive, add on top of that the 20% VAT basically the UK has priced themselves out of the market.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The clownishly shambolic ADHD-driven Bozo is all over the map like a Mexican jumping bean, either barking up the wrong tree or pointing out squirrels in the wood which you can't see for the trees, or else frenetically juggling with a whirlwind of smoke and mirrors to divert and distract the "deplorables" from sussing out his Brexit scams and shell games. The irony of all this calculated clowning is that he is only tying himself up in more knots politically before he jumps into the no-deal Brexit gunny sack complete with chains and padlocks just in time for Halloween when he'll be hoist with his own petard and left hanging out to dry on the EU's zip wire. A national embarrassment, innit?!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Tangerine,

Glad to see we're beginning to exchanged "civilized" messages.

Will try to be brief, yet concise (hopefully).

It's not true that EU citizens cannot be removed under no circumstances, i.e. non self-sustainability.

As you must be aware each case is decided on its own merits.

No two cases will ever be tried similarly.

In this specific instance a successful challenge was brought on behalf of 2 EU citizens "because they were sleeping rough."

Different circumstance may produce a different outcome.

This case dealt with instances of blanket targeting rough sleepers without taking into account if they were in employment or not.

As per the link you posted:

"The Home Office may now face claims for unlawful detention where it has detained individuals on the basis of its policy."

A policy of deliberate targeting of "rough sleepers".

Which is correct because sleeping rough in itself does not constitute a valid reason for removal of EU citizens, as provided for  in Art. 28 of Citizens’ Directive 2004/38.

Don't have time to go into it but, there are conditions attached (obviously) prior to this section be actionable.

This is allowed under 3 situations only, (including various conditions).

In addition to public security/policy concerns, other factors such as age, health, economic self-reliance, length in the country, family or community ties are all taken into account.

A criminal conviction followed by a custodial sentence is sure to warrant removal after the expiration of the term of incarceration (see, you have me going all Legal now - sorry, not intentional).

The shorter a length of time an EU citizen spends in a specific country, no family ties, no economic resources, unemployment, etc, a case for removal could (arguably) be successful.

Romani (and others) individuals who come to the UK seasonally, sleep rough, have not ties to community or family, unemployed, thieves are well within the realms of Art 28.

Laws to protect EU citizens from deportation, including Art 8 of ECHR (respect for private/family life) do exist.

However, this is not a peremptory right.

But, yeah, your link deals with another type of situation, mainly direct harassment, probably victimization (?), which is a cause of action in itself.

Cheers.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Did the British people not vote to leave the EU? Get it done already - screw the globalists in Brussels.

Do you understand the necessity of the backstop?

The leave deal was finalised by May and the EU but her party was held to ransom by hard right Brexiteers and the DUP.

They are seeking to ditch the previously agreed on backstop.

Hence the current situation.

It's people like them that are preventing Brexit, not Brussels.

Btw, "globalists" is an anti-Semitic dog whistle.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The DUP, and its disproportionate influence on the Right, are like the British equivalent of the NRA.

Without the DUP on their side (10 MPs), the Right Wing (Consevative) government would not have a majority, likely face a vote of no confidence against which all the opposition parties would vote, and so would likely collapse.

https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2017/06/19/the-tories-can-govern-without-the-dup-just

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Well, I’ll be selling a house in the UK this year -so good for me then.

And I’ve always wanted to drive a jag so I’ll get one of those and bring it back to Japan!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

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