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US church creates stir with gay exorcism video

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Rev. Patricia McKinney told The Associated Press,“We have nothing against homosexuals. I just don’t agree with their lifestyle.”

It's one thing to state your opinion. It's another thing altogether to paint homosexuality in this way in a public place.

I'm not overly phased by the practice, as long as no one gets hurt and it doesn't negatively affect the lives of others, what people do in their own time is up to them.

Too often, this type of showmanship is riddled with hypocrisy - a case in point is the bunch of U.S. and Irish Catholic priests - once considered bastions of their brand of faith, who over the past few years have been outed as child abusers and paedophiles.

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Wow... just wow. What's next? Villagers with pitchforks?

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Damn! I actually blushed while reading this. I know we all have loons in our native countries but come on! Unfortunately these mad fools live in mine. I feel most sorry for the kids of the freaks who attend that church. They don't have a chance. Can't we just evolve already? Hey Jesus extremists, homosexuality is natural in the mammal class!

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“We have nothing against homosexuals. I just don’t agree with their lifestyle.... and want to RIP THE DEMON OUT OF THEIR THROATS!"

So... the guy has nothing against homosexuals, but believes they are possessed by the devil. So does he have 'nothing against' the devil?

Anyway you slice it, this guy, and likely this church, is a nut.

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This sounds like a wonderful way to spend an evening (lol). I cannot begin to fathom the level of hiprocrisy involved. Don't these people have anything better to do other than persecute those who make different lifestyle choices. Don't get me wrong, I am not the sort of person who would play hide the sausage with some guy called Bruno, however, certain minority groups such as homosexuals do have a right to live life the way they see fit, without Christian wackos forcing them to engage in such pagan rites.

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McKinney denied the ritual was an exorcism, describing it instead as a casting out of spirits

Ms McKinney must have a different dictionary to mine.

“If you are a true prophet you’re not going to be popular with the people.”

That's what she thinks she is??

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"The video shows the 16-year-old boy lying on the floor, his body convulsing, as elders of a small Connecticut church cast a “homosexual demon” from his body."

Catholic prests and a 16 year old boy....the mind boggles.

Heh, methinks they'd have been better using Ted Haggard as the vedette in this fundie-vid.

What a bunch of freaks.

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McKinney denied the ritual was an exorcism, describing it instead as a casting out of spirits

Like when you drink too much shochu? And does "gay exorcism video" mean the priest is gay, or does the pizza boy make and appearance? (Cue wah-wah.)

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This is not new. There is another guy who says he can change you...

this could be a good business opportunity.

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We are in the 21st century, and some people still believe in Genies and demons. Maybe they are searching for the lamp of Aladdin. Way to go religious people.

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We are in the 21st century, and some people still believe in Genies and demons. Maybe they are searching for the lamp of Aladdin. Way to go religious people." Are you referring to Christians or Muslims?

does anyone know if this works?

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the quotes of the people are a little harsh in my opinion yet in canada there are some people who have a similar attitude regardless of the laws.

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The video shows the 16-year-old boy lying on the floor, his body convulsing, as elders of a small Connecticut church cast a “homosexual demon” from his body.

Oh my can the far right religious loons get any funnier!!!!LOL

Anomaly_Jr at 04:06 PM JST - 25th June Wow... just wow. What's next? Villagers with pitchforks?

I am with you Anomaly_JR....What can anyone with an IQ over 70 say other than...WTFO?

These loons have no place in the 20th century let alone the 21st...

They need to go under a rock....

MY my what is next witch burnings?LOL "no no this deserves a double "LOL"

FREAKS!LOL

I can not stop my laughter!!!! Oh my this takes the cake!!!!LOL

Have these people not heard of reason?LOL

Okay okay, to be honest.....wait wait, can not stop laughing at these freaks!!!!

Okay okay.....to be honest.....I have met folks like these....

Way back in the day when I was studying the bible text, yes I used to be a bible thumper before I woke myself up.....LOL

Okay, I met folks like this, they have so much faith in mans ability to speak to god. That they actually believe they are messengers of god.

They believe that they can drive out demons like the early Christians did in "the book of Acts".

They some times start speaking in this stupid tongues (that is what got me thinking they were nutz) and they really believe that they are special.

It is really sad that they put this kid through this because all they have done is driven this guy into the closet.

Feel sorry for this guy, hope he one day works through this insanity they put him through......

BTW to our dear friends here who are also religious fanatics......We live in the 21st century.......Please come join us the water is just fine!!!!LOL

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Bigots. A prison cell is the idea location for hate-crimes.

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Forsooth it was for the likes of thee The American epithet of 'whackjob' was given to us.

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dude, I'm not a religious person. and I have gay friends. However, I read the Bible, and it's clearly stated that homosexuality is a sin. Now, if you wanna be a Christian that follows the Bible, that means you sin by the textbook. If you wanna just be a gay, the it's nobody's business. It's your choice

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This is one of the most ignorant actions I have read about. There may be people who decide that they want to be gay. But most gays are born that way and to think that you can perform an exorcism to turn him or her straight is unbelieveable.

Homosexaulity is not a sin. Homosexuals were created by God so they are perfect. And to believe that they are a sin is pure bunk.

And this is supposed to cast the evil homosexual spirit out of his body? B/S What this will do is for the short term make homosexuality bad for the moment in this boy's mind. But give him time for the horror of this exorcism to subside and his true feelings will return.

This is no different then the traveling salesman selling snakeoil. It will do nothing in the long term.

I feel for this 16 year old. He's been abused. < :-)

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Why all the mocking? The church believes that a man should be with a woman and vice versa. People and groups can believe whatever they want. No harm, no foul. The boy went to the church specifically to have his demons driven out and ended up making three requests for the ritual. Anyone can attend any gathering they want. No harm, no foul by the youth.

Skipthesong asked, “Does this work?” Before that question can be answered one must ask is this real. So, how many of you have been in a church where someone is totally out of control and collapses during a service? How many of you have asked someone to pray for you and you begin vomiting so violently and heavily that they need more plastic bags to help you? And then after the prayers you go limp and slide to the floor? Have you ever seen this kind of behavior? Strange ain’t it? Seems real enough to at least have a look regardless of the century.

Last question, Jesus, in the Bible, cast out demons, Would you ROTF and L at him making wild claims about it being the first century and how the wonderful Romans having enlightened you since those B.C.E. days?

So, to answer skipthesongs question, it works sometimes and sometimes it doesn’t. According to the article, it sounds like this one worked. Vomiting followed up by resting quietly sounds quite like deliverance. I’ve seen one where a 200+lb woman, howling like a wolf was taken out of a service and received prayer (she did not ask for this we presumed – there’s lots of that of course- which is what you are probably all laughing at). Promptly she slithered like a snake off the sofa and around a chair and curled up under the pastor’s desk. My usher buddy and I stood there speechless. They got her back on the sofa and called her family and they came and took her home. She was not delivered. Did she have demons? I dunno. But she certainly had something going on that didn’t fit this century worldview.

I have been on both ends of the “ritual”. First off there is nothing ritualistic about it. It’s more like a war. Sometimes, the person in need is ready to be freed from all whatevers (as in my case) and there are others who need specific attention to details regarding who or what it is and how it came to be in there. This means conversation with the entity like it or not. Once enough is known then the entity can be told to leave. This when some rituals are used to get it to come out. Yes, sometimes it takes yelling at the entity because, often the entity is yelling at YOU to leave it alone. How do you know it isn’t just the person trying to get the hell away from the clergy? Because you have bypassed the person and have been talking with the entity and you know its voice, it’s mannerism, and so on. Sure, laugh all you want. But there are lots of people who can support this point of view. In fact, “Kamora Herrington, who runs a mentoring program at True Colors and has worked with the youth, said she believes it’s fairly common. ‘This happens all the time, she said. This is not isolated.’ ”

Lastly, Cleo, I think, the pastor of the church was using Bible language justifying her position. Biblical prophets were rejected by nearly everyone. Thus, her comment. I doubt she is claiming to be a prophet. If she had said she is a discerner of spirits or a receiver of knowledge the media wouldn’t print it because it isn’t sensational. Prophets are and always have been sensational and oh so easy to label and laugh at.

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I think once you start believing in the magic invisible sky god then your sense of reality is damaged. Unfortunately, kids are taught religion at a young age. This is an extreme case but normal everyday religion is only a little less wacky.

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I don't really know what to say about all this. It seems pretty crazy. I don't agree with homosexuality at all, but this is uncalled for. I believe Jesus Christ as our lord a savior, 100% but, I would never do this. Nobody really has the right to say my religion is crazy, I don't say that to non-believers. Many of my friends are non-believers, but we are still friends. Who am I to judge anybody else? That is GOD'S job.

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Manifested Glory nutjobs, this is even worse than the reform classes for homosexuals that some fundies peddle. I mean really outside of a small group of very deluded fundamental Christians does anyone take this seriously? I feel sorry for the boy he's gonna be one repressed messed up puppy that spends years in counseling once he leaves his church.

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timeon:

Just to be pernickety and for arugemtn's sake, surely you can be a Christian (as in, following the precepts of love and brotherhood set forth by Jesus of Nazareth) and still ignore scriptures that have been translated, rewritten, altered, edited and used politically for millenia as a form of social control. Nothing in the Bible is simple and straightforward - it's an allegorical text, and as such clear-cut readings given to such scriptures are dodgy at best.

The only clear thing here is that the people in this church are lunatics. Saying that being gay is the work of Satan is no different from stating it as a medical condition. The WHO banned homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses quite some time ago.

I propose opening a church where all religious bigots are said to be possessed by demons and thus need to be exorcised!

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It seems to me that most people here don't believe in GOD. That is truly amazing to me. How can that be so? I thnink most people try to judge or create an opinion without even looking for the abundance of evidence that there is, all you have to do is look. I wasn't always a Christian, but through research and study, have found that it would take more faith to be an Ahiest than a Christian. Lee Strobel was somebody that helped me with a lot of the material I needed to look at and study. Atleast take a look and do the research and then make an opinion, if you already have done that, and choose not to believe, then that's fine. Atleast you made the effort to look for the truth.

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I'm all for people having freedom of religion.

But when do we as a society draw the line between deeply religious and mentally ill?

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“We have nothing against homosexuals. I just don’t agree with their lifestyle.”

I don't "agree" with rain when I want to hang my laundry, but you can't change nature.

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“I think it’s horrifying,” McHaelin said of the video by Manifested Glory. “What saddens me is the people that are doing this think they are doing something in the kid’s best interests, when in fact they’re murdering his spirit.”

Agree. No matter what position the church holds, it is quite inappropriate to practice exorcism on a teenager.

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through research and study, have found that it would take more faith to be an Ahiest than a Christian

maybe it's true! I said "my god!" several times whilst reading your post

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From what I have noticed most gays come from the bible belt area. Seems like that group of states is a major promoter of the gay lifestyle despite the thin veneer of christian bible thumping that exists.

Anyway, these nutjobs can exorcise until the cows come home but gay people have been and always will be about 5% of the populations. Even penguins are gay it seems. Maybe these thumpers will go after penguins next.

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Is it just a myth, or is it really inbreeding that creates a big base for these Christian extremists in the US? Some people have told me inbreeding is rife in the bible-belt areas of the United States. Can anyone confirm or deny this? I'm not anti-American by the way...

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Only in conneticut (or maybe not) lol. If there is one thing I hate about Evangelists is they pull off crazy garbage and work on other peoples blind faith. A "homosexual demon", boy that was funny. I don't believe that homosexuality is genetic either, nobody has come up with the "gay gene" yet now have they? People make choices, and I see the "Gay gene" as an excuse to try to force people to agree with their lifestyle choices. It appears to be more psychological than anything. Personally I could care less. People are gonna do what they wanna do.

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fatfrenchfool.... You obiviously didn't take a an unbiased approach. In his dvd "The Case for the Creator" he makes it very clear, and I agree 100% with inteligent design. Do you truly feel all this is by pure chance? In his other dvd "The Case for Christ" he explains how so many different historians acknowledge the fact that Jesus was real, they just called him a magician. Can you explain that? Why would his disiples choose to be tortured, stoned, beheaded, and put to death, when at one point, they didn't even really believe him, until they saw him ressurected. Read the books, check out all the history. It's all right there. As far as Evolution, can you honestly say that you came from an Ape, when is the transition between them and us? I'm pretty sure that we don't just pop out of monkeys and apes. I never said I agreed with everything that he said, but he sure helped me in my search for the truth. I also looked with an unbiased eye, as I recommend you do.

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I meant to say " where is the transition between them and us"

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“This happens all the time,” she said. “This is not isolated.”

Sure. It happens all the time.

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I don't "agree" with rain when I want to hang my laundry, but you can't change nature.

No, but you can resist it, and ultimately change who you are, rather then letting your 'nature' determine who you are. Personally I think this exorcism idea is rather scary, particularly after hearing how it was done, that said, I don't agree with the avowed homosexual apologists, or those who seem to always bash religion.

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There are two Americas - Jesusland (where this happened), and everywhere else (the sane bits).

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SuperLib, While "all the time" may be a bit much, it does happen. Mother Theresa had 4 exorcisms in the latter part of her life.

Now, whether there are real demons inside these people is debatable but as a friend who happens to be a surgeon said the other day, "if someone believes strongly enough that a medicine won't help them, it won't."

His point was that we cannot underestimate the power of belief.

Could a exorcism actually be real? Well...I don't know but having been to Bangkok, Jakarta and Pickle Lake, Ontario, I can honestly say, I've seen stranger things.

Taka

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Do you truly feel all this is by pure chance?

I think it would be really, really scary if 'all this' were the result of deliberate planning. I shudder to think what kind of weirdo thought it all up and thought it would be a good idea to put it into practice.

As far as Evolution, can you honestly say that you came from an Ape, when is the transition between them and us? I'm pretty sure that we don't just pop out of monkeys and apes

The theory of evolution doesn't say that people came from apes, or that we just 'pop out of monkeys and apes'. If you're going to claim that something is wrong, at least try to understand what it is you're denying.

Why would his disiples choose to be tortured, stoned, beheaded, and put to death

Because they were as sadly deluded as the people in this wacko church?

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I don't believe that homosexuality is genetic either, nobody has come up with the "gay gene" yet now have they? People make choices, and I see the "Gay gene" as an excuse to try to force people to agree with their lifestyle choices. It appears to be more psychological than anything.

That's ridiculous. Has anyone isolated the "straight gene" yet? Homosexual behaviour can be observed in several species in the animal kingdom and studies of twins reared apart reveal correlations which suggest very strongly that there is a significant genetic component. Why would anyone choose something that would make them a target for hate, violence and discrimination? Did you "choose" to be straight? Because I didn't. And if I lived in a society which said that heterosexuality was wrong, there wouldn't be anything I could do about my "condition".

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You know what? Your biased assumption on homosexual behavior automatically justifies the overall discriminations upon anyone who has a queer body, simply because of their behavior that goes against the heterosexual norm. It leads you to the point that people born to be different will deserve all the blames for threatening the heterosexual norms in a conventional US society.

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Manifested Glory Ministries

Rev. Patricia McKinney

Calendar

06.28.2009

Annual Witch Hunt

07.05.2009

Independence Day Exorcism of Witches

07.12.2009

Annual Witch Fire of un-exorcisable Witches

Needed: We have an urgent need of sulfur and wheat stalks

I don't know which is scarier those who play on ignorant people's natural predilection for xenophobia or the JT posters who are sheep in the fold.

How about we put aside the unbiased eye act? What a crock. Of course you have an unbiased eye; it is just a sensing (biological) device. The moment the signal of these deluded individual's eyes reaches the brain, it is lost to an atrophic brain. It is an intelligent brain these people need not an unbiased eye. Intelligent design is actually the act of making a magnificent structure like the brain subject to "group think" and rendering it in lock step with every other brain within the group.

I don't believe that being gay is only genetic. I believe it is both genetic and the result of environment. I tend to think we will find a genetic predisposition in most cases but I think there will be a few cases of predominately nurture as the leading factor. Of course it would be common for it to be both nurture and a genetic predisposition as so many other things are. That raises two very important points. First, ignorant people will assume nurture is a case of choice; it is not. Other ignorant people will say that nurture means gay parents turn their kids gay; they do not.

Homosexuality is, as much a part of nature, as many other parts of nature that are present but have a lower probability. It is obvious to me that at least 10% of the population is gay. I think others have bisexual tendencies. Some gay kids will always have problems growing up. There will be gay boys who are trying to get in their friends pants while he is only interested in vaginas. This will creep a certain portion of straight kids out and they will expose the "the little gay creep" for what he is. It is hard to blame the straight kid because after all he is just a kid and may not know of any other way to handle it. But as our society matures then, even kids, can say, look, beating the hell out of the gay kid is not cool. They can also address the gay kid and say hitting on straight people is uncool. I do think that tolerance demands that gays can ask someone perceived as straight out on a date. But just once. I apply the same rules to a straight guy asking a woman out on a date. If she says no, continually asking for a date in the future is harassment. I don't see a problem with asking, in either a hetero or homo context, if a person changed their mind a few months later. I know it is impossible for some to accept modern society. Probably they also find it hard to accept that change is inevitable.

In my observation there are people who resist using their brain as much as possible. They prefer the mentality of a sheep in a herd. The backwards practices of this church should be exposed. Their sole interest is in keeping people who are different, that are not yet accepted differences, outside of society. That is why they not only exclude them from their group but seek to demonized them so that the larger portion of society can despise those who they find unacceptable also. Many intelligent people now recognize this as a form of hatred. It is. Let the denial begin. If you don't get it, you probably never will. You will just learn slogans to counter those that call you homophobic. You will say, "I don't fear homosexuals." You will say, “We have nothing against homosexuals. I just don’t agree with their lifestyle.” I guess the only thing left to say is that those who have these less than evolved brains should just be happy they still have opposable thumbs.

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Same sex attraction is still a disorder (DSM IV). I don't think it is appropriate for people with this disorder to be labeled as homosexuals for identification purposes. Historically, many religious groups, in their fervency, have mistaken disorders as demon possession. I have personally witnessed an exorcism of a man who, in reality, needed lithium. I have also seen the results of children becoming disabled because their parents thought that medical treatment for a high fever showed a lack of faith. According to the Holy Bible, Jesus himself directed people to show themselves to a physician following a miraculous healing. The point is that even though I am against fanatics the promote same sex attraction disorder as a way of life, I also am against religious fanatics who cause physical and/or mental harm to others in the name of their god.

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To the many people saying homosexuality is natural, maybe stemming from genes, and therefore should be accepted, what about all the ones that no one accepts? Drunks, thieves, pedos, etc. are also under the same exact influence (yes, genes play a part in all these), yet they are only condemned because they can't control it, they can't help it like any gay person out there. Yeah, they can hurt other people, but most of them get no sympathy (especially pedos) if they try to "come out the closet" and even try to get over it with help from others. They are usually told to "stop doing it or else" without that same consideration to what they are going through.

People call them sick and disgusting without tolerance although they are what they are. It wasn't too long ago that gays were the same.

My question is that do you put these people on the same boat as gays or not? Aside from the fact that some may or may not hurt others, either they cannot help it (like gays) or they can (like gays). Which one is it?

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Well J Rock the day they discover a specifically "Straight gene" is the day that I'll acknowledge a specifically "Gay gene" exists as well. Behaviour can easily be influenced by surrounding conditions (Take for example early military barracks where women weren't allowed or the old tyme sailors at sea for months if not years on end... and the more modern prison situations.)

I don't see 6 year old boys kissing or holding hands with other 6 year old boys. Children usually exhibit some kind of attraction to their preferred sex if its genetic as you say, but I still to this day have yet to see this behaviour studied until kids reach their adolescent and teen years and become sexually active. As I said before, I don't really care what people attracted to the same sex do with their lives. But trying to label it as something it truely isn't (or has yet to be determined) won't make it acceptable as the norm among a species that requires a male and female to procreate... (except for reptiles, amphibians, and other assexual/hermaphroditic species.)

The thing with this is that animals are animals but human beings can choose to either submit to their influences or reject them. Homosexuality isn't something that is harmful to others, but it may be offensive when someone who is not "gay" is accosted by someone who is attempting to "turn" them. Same goes vice versa. On a personal note this has happened to me and I have also seen in happen to others.

I completely disagree with the freaky religious nutjobs in the article claiming the boy was possessed by a demon that "makes" him homosexual that had to be excorcised.

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sharky1 falsely said:

Same sex attraction is still a disorder (DSM IV).

He is referring to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It does not list same sex attraction as a disorder.

http://www.pdf-search-engine.com/dsm-iv-pdf.html

Once again we will have a thread with dishonesty. There is a difference between discussions of fact and discussions of opinion. Whether same sex attraction is in the DSM IV is a matter of fact not opinion. It is either in there or it is not. When one chooses to present things that are not fact as fact, it is dishonest. Same sex attraction is in fact not a disorder. Since sharky1 chose to lend credence to the DSM IV by choosing it as a source then people should demand that he admit it is not in fact a disorder. He spun his own web.

I would expect others to also bring up the fact that his claim is dishonest. There are things that can be said to be a misunderstanding. It is clear that this is not one of those cases. You cannot mistakenly have not read it in the DSM IV and then mistakenly say it is in there. He used a reference. I actually supply that reference in the link up above.

Sharky1's credibility has once again been destroyed.

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Homosexuality WAS listed as a disorder in older versions of the DSM, but was pulled after debate and for the simple fact that even though we may not know exactly what causes homosexuality, it's not a disorder. It's behavior we have observed time and again in the animal world, and may actually hold some evolutionary benefit! Look it up. Whether you agree or not with homosexuality, it's certainly a natural behavior and not even close to a disorder. As far as children and sexual behavior are concerned (re; honest dictator's post) I really don't consider that argument to be valid at all. Children are still growing, and even though they may feel an attraction to a certain gender, it's certainly not something they will necessarily express especially if they understand that kissing someone of the same gender is "weird" or "different" and therefore bad.

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Funny thing here is that homosexuality has been with us since the dawning of time. The problem with it is that western religions have given it a label and made it taboo.

Christianity is suppose to be this,"love thy neighbor" faith of peace and happiness but they are really just bigots. They cling to passages in their bible that claim to be the word of god.

But if you read them, they are just the writings of angry bigots of the time.

I feel sorry for this kid who belongs to this cult. For the rest of his life he will be praying for jesus to remove his demons.

I see three paths for this kid,

one is acceptance of who he is and living in peace.

Hiding his homosexuality from the world and becoming another Ted Haggard

Another entails a worse fate that many times is taken by kids in the same boat.

I for one hope he find peace.....

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How many of you have asked someone to pray for you and you begin vomiting so violently and heavily that they need more plastic bags to help you? And then after the prayers you go limp and slide to the floor? Have you ever seen this kind of behavior? Strange ain’t it? Seems real enough to at least have a look regardless of the century.

You're right. It is indeed strange for someone (an adult no less) to get their imagination so worked up they exhibit this kind of behavior.

I’ve seen one where a 200+lb woman, howling like a wolf was taken out of a service and received prayer (she did not ask for this we presumed – there’s lots of that of course- which is what you are probably all laughing at). Promptly she slithered like a snake off the sofa and around a chair and curled up under the pastor’s desk. My usher buddy and I stood there speechless

I would be speechless, too - regardless of whether or not she was putting on a show for the congregation or actually required psychiatric attention.

They got her back on the sofa and called her family and they came and took her home. She was not delivered. Did she have demons?"

No, she didn't. She also didn't own a unicorn that could gallop across rainbows.

It's just sad that there are so many lunatics and frauds out there harming kids like this boy with their nonsense.

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Well if the exorcism in "wacko" America didn't work, Ayatollah Khomeini passed a fatwa allowing sex reassignment operations for diagnosed transexuals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transexual_in_Iran

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I feel for this 16 year old. He's been abused. " But you were all for NAMBLA's actions!

Who took the boy there? Did he go on his own free will? Maybe he doesn't want to be gay.... is that a crime?

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francisco3629, someone making money from DVDs of his supernatural beliefs is far from historical research or evidence. I never said I believe in evolution. I do not believe however in god. the evidence that god exists is NOT there, despite how many copies of his dvds Lee Strobel sells. moderator if my reply is off-topic then why not also delete the post I am replying to. I didnt start this offshoot into creationism. unless there is a connection between Lee Strobel and homosexuality we don't know about

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To the many people saying homosexuality is natural, maybe stemming from genes, and therefore should be accepted, what about all the ones that no one accepts? Drunks, thieves, pedos, etc. are also under the same exact influence (yes, genes play a part in all these), yet they are only condemned because they can't control it, they can't help it like any gay person out there. Yeah, they can hurt other people, but most of them get no sympathy (especially pedos) if they try to "come out the closet" and even try to get over it with help from others. They are usually told to "stop doing it or else" without that same consideration to what they are going through.

People call them sick and disgusting without tolerance although they are what they are. It wasn't too long ago that gays were the same.

My question is that do you put these people on the same boat as gays or not? Aside from the fact that some may or may not hurt others, either they cannot help it (like gays) or they can (like gays). Which one is it?

I dont think gay people can help being gay anymore than I can help being straight. If it was a matter of choiche dont you think straight people could wake up in the morning and wonder whether maybe they could just be gay for the day? Does it happen to you? I know it has never happened to me so I dont understand how would think of it as a matter of choice. Regarding the other question. I think that homosexuality is totally harmless to society and to the homosexuals themselves. The same cannot be said of pedos and drunks. Also, being that they dont harm anyone, no one should have any business deciding whether it should be acceptable or not. Simply no one should have a say in the matter.

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Homosexuality WAS listed as a disorder in older versions of the DSM, but was pulled after debate and for the simple fact that even though we may not know exactly what causes homosexuality, it's not a disorder. It's behavior we have observed time and again in the animal world, and may actually hold some evolutionary benefit!

Actually, it was pulled because of politics, not because its not a disorder. The gay community gained enough clout that political correctness demanded it not be listed as a disorder. In point of fact it is a disorder, no more or less so then any other. That its considered much more socially acceptable these days is why people like to sweep it under the rug. Its a matter between consenting adults, and because of this, most people don't condemn it like they do pedophilia or other disorders.

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Molenir at 06:02 AM JST - 27th June Actually, it was pulled because of politics, not because its not a disorder.

As always half truths are the way of the far right....

Following controversy and protests from gay activists at APA annual conferences from 1970 to 1973, as well as the emergence of new data from researchers such as Alfred Kinsey and Evelyn Hooker, the seventh printing of the DSM-II, in 1974, no longer listed homosexuality as a category of disorder. But through the efforts of psychiatrist Robert Spitzer, who had led the DSM-II development committee, a vote by the APA trustees in 1973, and confirmed by the wider APA membership in 1974, the diagnosis was replaced with the category of "sexual orientation disturbance".

I wonder how quickly the far right would start protesting if the new DSM manual stated that believing in a fairy tale god was a mental disorder?

I for one find that anytime people try to label medical conditions sometime it is done out of ignorance. Or out of disdain by certain religious beliefs.

If only religious beliefs would be removed from the world of medicine the world would be a healthier place, mentally and physically.

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. . . but not necessarily spiritually.

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Strange stuff. Gay Exorcism? Mother Teresa's Exorcism? http://www.bibleprobe.com/exorcism.htm. I have seen JT posters needing one;-) Just defeat one of these posters in reason and watch the tongue start lashing out, eyes rolling, head on backwards, green puke, foul smells and language that leaves one speechless, all in defense of ones position. I do not know what is out there, but Jesus spoke to something. Perhaps it was just personified sin or the effects of such. The hatred and judgment of some? But let this be clear. An action may always be condemned but the culpability may be mitigated because of good intentions based on an error of judgment. I do not know about exorcism and kind of find it a bit weird. But the love of the creator is all around. In sunsets etc. The Pope wrote that a Christian is basically a Good Person. Let us all be one.

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As always half truths are the way of the far right....

As I said, politics.

You obviously agree with the move, even while I don't. Regardless of how you want to spin it. Homosexuality is a disorder the same way pedophilia, alcoholism, or any other disorder listed in there is. The difference is of course, that homosexuality, is between consenting adults, and thus, not harmful to anyone but those who choose to engage in that behavior. With effort and time, people can be cured. Most however due to societies acceptance, choose to give into the disorder rather then fight the unnatural urges. And again, since they harm none but themselves...

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Molenir at 03:51 PM JST - 27th June Homosexuality is a disorder

Actually I consider many thing disorders, but homosexuality is not one. You see a disorder is;

A mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological or behavioral pattern that occurs in an individual and is thought to cause distress or disability that is not expected as part of normal development or culture.

To me people who kill others in the name of a god have a mental illness. People who love other people because of who they are do not.

Kind of sad if you sit back and think about it. People kill other people because a book says so. No matter how many times that book has been rewritten and changed by those trying to make a point.

OH well people who hate have a real mental illness. Same with the people that see or believe they see Conspiracies all around them. Sad how ill people like that are.......

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Being ignorant also kills. Ignorance is probably the biggest mental illness. This is why we have people like JoeBigs commenting on things he has no clue about. I bet he has never even read The Book. Try reading the Qu'ran or about Buddhism if it is too complicated for you to understand, instead of your Harry Potter, or garbage best seller that everybody else reads.

Don't comment about something you don't understand, and don't talk about how other people are ill, because it might just be you that is ill, and that you are the problem. The conspiracy is that there are too many ignorant people that "don't know what they do".

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Try reading the Qu'ran or about Buddhism if it is too complicated for you to understand,

The Brothers Grimm is another good place to start.

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I am not homosexual, but I am a supporter of their rights. We should thank this gang of idiots for doing more to support the homosexual cause than any argument in their favor. I know its not what they intended with posting a video of the exorcism, but its what they accomplished. Talk about shooting your own foot!

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Molenir- "The difference is of course, that homosexuality, is between consenting adults, and thus, not harmful to anyone but those who choose to engage in that behavior."

That is what is said now. Used to be, they burned homosexuals at the stake. They did not find them so harmless or curable then. What changed? Oh yeah! Feeble attempts by people of faith to understand science, that is what happened.

Homosexuality is not a disorder. That is because human sexuality is a product of our intelligence, which can lead us in directions Mother Nature did not intend. I would imagine homosexuality is common enough in the animal kingdom, especially among the more intelligent primates. But how to prove that? Did the animal not mate because its gay, or was beaten out, or was not accepted by a female? I am no expert, but I would bet their are plenty of gay bonobos. They get up to a lot of sexual monkey business and even the supposedly straight ones do a lot of gay acts. Some of them would have to be truly gay.

But it is fashionable these days to push the border between individual personality and disorder further toward disorder. The main reason seems to be the potential for profits from drugs and other treatments. True believers in this border change are less common than those who just quietly acquiese. Or so I hope.

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Actually, bonobo sexuality is a little more complicated than you think. The females display lesbian behavior and the males display homosexual behavior as well. So your implication that homosexuality is only practiced by rejected males is wholly mistaken. In addition to that, your theory that homosexual behavior is mostly present in intelligent primates is also flawed. Gay penguins, dolphins, etc. Homosexuality is behavior we observe time and again in the animal kingdom and must be of some benefit otherwise it would not exist. Perhaps the only flaw here is with those people who limit sex to those behaviors that lead only to procreation.

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Boy thats a new one. Homosexuality is beneficial? As always an attempt to twist an abnormal situation to be normal. In the animal kingdom some males use it to show their dominance over other males too. Monkeys only do it cos they want a bit of fun, but none of them have been known to devote their entire time and life to the same sex of their species.

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Drunks, thieves, pedos, etc. are also under the same exact influence (yes, genes play a part in all these), yet they are only condemned because they can't control it, they can't help it like any gay person out there.

Fact is most drunks, theives, pedos, etc. are straight. If 95% of the population became gay all those crimes would nearly evaporate. Lets not talk about incest rates in the southern christian states in the US (about 25% of girls are affected).

Fact is that being gay is not a crime as the above post seems to indicate. It is an orientation that comes from within, basically as Gods children gays are Gods gift to christian fundamentalist to help them grow up (most do not).

Fact is being a republican in part is genetically determined just like being gay. Society for the most part accepts republicans (not so much lately however).

Anyway the republican love party, ala Ensign and Sanford, have proved that the DOMA act needs defending from the hypocrites that wrote it.

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Typical backward thinking you'd expect from hick town in the US. Just amusing, nothing else.

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flatearther I am shocked by what you wrote. "Perhaps the only flaw here is with those people who limit sex to those behaviors that lead only to procreation." Sorry, mate, people who follow those rules are following the rules for human behaviour laid down by GOD, the Creator. Marriage is between one man and one woman. Sex is also between one man and one woman, mostly for the precreation (Im glad you used that word) of humanity. I believe there can be genuine love between two people of the sam sex, but to take it further into an act of sexual intercourse, is wrong, according to the laws of God.

You say imply that anythying goes as far as sex is concerned, without limits? Have you any idea exactly what the implications of your remarks mean? Sex between adults and babies - is that ok? Sex between man and beast - is that ok? Incest sex - is that ok? God has determined the lkimits to our behaviour, for our own good. Its not "people" who think this way - the rules were invented by the Creator, so if you or anyone else has a problem with that, you should take it up with Him.

I have no doubt that these people were acting in all sincerity when they were carrying out this "exorcism." I have never seen that being carried out in any church Ive ever been to - and Ive been to a lot, all over the world. My personal belief is that homosexuals should be treated with love. Sadly, in many parts of the church they are not. I know of several church ministries in various parts of the world who do have specfic work among homosexuals who come to them for spiritual help, though.

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Its not "people" who think this way - the rules were invented by the Creator, so if you or anyone else has a problem with that, you should take it up with Him.

Yep. Now we just have to figure out how to pray the gay out of the rest of the intelligently designed animal kingdom.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/5550488/Homosexual-behaviour-widespread-in-animals-according-to-new-study.html

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realist- what does sex with babies have to do with what I wrote? I wrote that sex is not used solely for procreation. That's a fact. If you don't consider a b.j or anal to be sex, that's your problem, I do consider those actions to be sex. Or would you argue that's somehow procreation? For that matter, what about masturbation? Isn't that sexual behavior? I don't feel that sex with babies or animals is okay, I don't even think it's in the same realm as homosexual sex, the difference between those behaviors lies in one word: CONSENT. Homosexual sex is consensual, which makes it fine in my book. If God has such an issue with homosexuality, why did he create homosexuals in the first place? Please try to answer that instead of making offensive and disgusting comparisons.

As far as marriage is concerned, your argument is largely a joke. Marriage has evolved throughout history. There was a time when polyamory was an acceptable marriage practice. There was a time when marriages were contracted strictly for political reasons, times when women were literally sold into marriages,times when marriage between blacks and whites, asians and whites was illegal, etc. Marriage has evolved through the centuries to reach our current definition. I can only hope it will someday evolve to become an institution that can accept the love between two people of any race, gender,color and creed who are adults willing to commit to each other.

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realist- I mean no offense to your "creator", but I think he/she and all of us have a little more to worry about than what goes on in people's bedrooms.

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realist. with all that talk of the sky wizard I doubt the validity of your moniker. Your talk of GODS laws, well they were written by man, unless God uses his lazer vision and sears the laws into a mountain side for all to see, they are mans laws claiming to be the word of God. You asume that you are correct and that non-believers are wrong. The opposite is also true. People need to agree to disagree on the issue of gods existence, and stop trying to enforce thier world view upon the other. Especially through exorcisms. By the puked, not because a demon sodomised him.

If I have faith or not is not the question,and should be of no consequence, so I will not say. The question is how deep down the rabbit hole of fairy tales and delusion will someone go in the name of said faith. How much abuse would I inflict on another human, percieved wrongs, enemies or not, how far will you go in the name of religeon as opposed to in the name of your humanity.

Im not gay, and Im not worried because you cant catch it, its a choice. And its not my, or anyones elses business what someone does behind thier curtains.

If you are causing no harm, you are alright with me. Religeon has caused and still causes much harm world and history wide. Much more than a roll in the hay between a couple of guys ever did. Now tout your religeon as being the be all and end all of this world. I believe that belief itself will last, but religeon is bound to die as it inbreeds, and excorizes, terrorizes,martyrs, and persecutes iself into oblivion. Real realists will not put up with it forever.

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Correction last sentence of first paragraph should read: By the look of the articles description of events, the boy vomited because they pushed on his stomach until he puked, not because a demon sodomised him.

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"What people are ignoring here is the real danger posed by casting the demon out of this teenager: now there's a gay demon on the loose. " STEPHEN COLBERT, comedian, on the YouTube footage of a Connecticut pastor performing an exorcism on a gay teen.

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flatearther, it is odd that you have taken issue with my post, yet written the exact same things I was talking about! Odd, and most annoying. Please read my post again. I cannot even be bothered to explain your mistakes as you did not even read carefully.

TheGeneral, that link is useless. Same sex pairing is not gay nor homosexual. A presidental hopeful and a vice-presidental hopeful is usually a same-sex pairing, as in two guys joining forces to accomplish a goal. Nothing surprising about that unless you do not realize that "sex" means "gender".

Two male penguins teaming up to take care of an egg are not gay unless one tries to mount the other. Its not love for eachother, at least not most of the time, its a sense of duty toward the egg.

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LMAO Notimpressed that quote was a good one.

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Beaver Cleaver- I have no issue with your post, I simply wished to elucidate on your valid points and correct any flaws. Other than that, your post was just fine.

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BeaverCleaver

TheGeneral, that link is useless.

I guess it's useless if you're going to cherry-pick the article and respond with a pitiful analogy.

From the same "useless" article:

"Same-sex behaviours – courtship, mounting or parenting – are traits that may have been shaped by natural selection, a basic mechanism of evolution that occurs over successive generations," he said.

"But our review of studies also suggests that these same-sex behaviours might act as selective forces in and of themselves."

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i'm interested in the idea that black and white heterosexuality is an oversimplification. after all, our ancient ancestors, the first living creatures to have male/female sexual reproduction, probably did not have the sensual capabilities to tell male from female, yet they must have reproduced. stands to reason that a rather hit or miss approach was used. as such, the black and white distinction between gay and straight is a fairly recent introduction to human behaviour

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TheGeneral-"I guess it's useless if you're going to cherry-pick the article and respond with a pitiful analogy."

Actually, it was you who cherry picked. The article did nothing to back up the claim of homosexual mounting and courtship being common, and those are key to this issue. I might agree that it is, but the article does not back it up except for one reseacher declaring that it is in the statement you cherry picked. As this is a researcher talking, I would expect more to back it up, or think him biased for his lack of supporting evidence. My pitiful analogy was the same type of analogy featured in the article in that it did not back up the topic.

But even proving the courship and mounting does necessarily prove dedicated homosexual behavior, which is to be truly gay. Those are why I found the article to be useless, at least for factual and supporting purposes. But I suppose it does have value if you are trying to get the anti-gay pro-exorcism crowd to just lighten up by telling them something positive. Its not my way. I just want the facts.

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Flatearther, there were no flaws in my post.

"So your implication that homosexuality is only practiced by rejected males is wholly mistaken."

I never implied that. I offered three separate reasons why an animal did not mate.

I believe there are plenty of gay animals, and it seems to be a completely reasonable statement. Its just going to be hard to find actual proof of gayness. Assorted homosexual and homogender behaviors are not enough to proof actual gayness.

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Actually, it was you who cherry picked.

If cherry-picking means "reading and comprehending the entire article" to you, then I'm guilty as charged.

Read it again. Out loud, if necessary.

The article is entirely about a new study that suggests that "homosexual behaviour is a nearly universal phenomenon in the animal kingdom".

the article does not back it up except for one reseacher declaring that it is

The "one researcher" (Dr. Nathan Bailey) you dismiss out of hand was part of the research team and is commenting on their findings.

Their findings? This 16-year-old's "demons" occur almost universally throughout the animal kingdom.

Assorted homosexual and homogender behaviors are not enough to proof actual gayness.

I'm sure you could track down the paper itself. You could even explain your definition of "gayness" to the scientists in your peer review of their research.

As for me, I'm not a scientist so I don't comment ignorantly on scientific findings. I rely on other experts to review and test them. That's how good science works.

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TheGeneral, you seem pretty bitter about this. I am sorry if my tone set you off.

"As for me, I'm not a scientist so I don't comment ignorantly on scientific findings. I rely on other experts to review and test them. That's how good science works."

Just by virtue of being a scientist it does not make their science sound and not their definitions either. I suggest you be more skeptical. There are plenty of people in the field of science who simply have no business being there. Just a general understanding of how few people out there have truly scientific minds compared to the number of people claiming to be scientists should tip you off to that.

"If cherry-picking means "reading and comprehending the entire article" to you, then I'm guilty as charged."

The article does not support the man's claim, except for the parenting claim, which is not homosexuality. I don't know why you can't see that.

As for digging up the actual reseach, I have to say that it smells so biased at this point, that I have no interest. I agree with the conclusion that homosexuality can be found in the animal kingdom often enough, but their method of proving that seems very off at this point. It looks like a long road leading the destination called "disappointment". I am not interested in taking that road.

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BeaverCleaver

I'm not bitter.

Just by virtue of being a scientist it does not make their science sound and not their definitions either.

We are in agreement. Like I said, good science relies on good peer review.

And I consider myself a pretty solid skeptic, thank you. If you are as well, you surely recognize the logical fallacy you've employed here: argument from ignorance.

I, on the other hand, simply pointed out what new research has suggested based on what the researchers are publicly saying.

The article is what it is and nothing more: "In laymen's terms, here's what we found". There will be more to come as the scientific method does its thing.

Furthermore, there is nothing in this article I see that signals bias or poor scientific protocol.

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"Furthermore, there is nothing in this article I see that signals bias or poor scientific protocol."

The overly broad definition of what is being called homosexual behavior indicates bias to me. It looks to me like they are doing anything they can to prove homosexuality in nature, even going so far as to imply that two animal blokes or two animal lasses pairing up to do most anything is homosexual behavior. That smells like a bias to me, and the bias seems to aimed at justifying homosexual marriage and child rearing. What other reason is there for such nonsense?

If you are as well, you surely recognize the logical fallacy you've employed here: argument from ignorance.

I was thinking more along the lines of an educated guess. I have offered very few absolutes here. I use words like "I think" and "I believe" and "smells like" very liberally for a good reason. That reason is, I have no proof. I see no proof in that article either, not about what we are speaking of anyway, and that is the question of whether homosexuality exists in nature.

My observations are more limited to domesticated animals which makes it good, but not the best method of observation. But my experience is extensive for someone not actually employed in any sector related to domestic animals. I have seen lots of homosexual behavior among many various farm animals and pets, but nothing to make me think that any animal was truly gay. But how could you know that anyway? I have heard some pet owners declare that their pets are gay. They might be correct. But just because a pet did not react to a female the way they expected does make the pet gay. No man would know what to do with a female if he had never seen one either, and that is the situation most pets are in. Some dogs think they are people and shun other dogs because they never got to socialize with dogs when young.

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The overly broad definition of what is being called homosexual behavior indicates bias to me. It looks to me like they are doing anything they can to prove homosexuality in nature, even going so far as to imply that two animal blokes or two animal lasses pairing up to do most anything is homosexual behavior. That smells like a bias to me, and the bias seems to aimed at justifying homosexual marriage and child rearing.

Your second logical fallacy: confirmation bias.

There's nothing in this article that suggests any such thing.

What other reason is there for such nonsense?

To state the obvious, Dr. Bailey is an evolutionary biologist and this "nonsense" is what he studies. According to his team's research, it seems that homosexual behavior may be the result of natural selection and/or a selective force.

But my experience is extensive for someone not actually employed in any sector related to domestic animals. I have seen lots of homosexual behavior among many various farm animals and pets, but nothing to make me think that any animal was truly gay. But how could you know that anyway?

Argument from ignorance again. "[I've never seen convincing evidence]. . . but how could you know that anyway?" are the hallmarks of this logical fallacy.

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No idea how you can accuse me of "confirmation bias" for my problems with the definition of gay and homosexual behavior. I would be good it it was referred to as homogender behavior, but that is a completely different thing. If anything, the article reeks of confirmation bias, but as you said, the article does not present all of the research. The problem might be the writer's choices and not those of the Dr.

I do not have it in for the Dr., its just that what I saw in the article was less than convincing. It might be the fault of the Dr. it might not. Until I see the research I am going with its his fault and he is biased as an educated guess, after all it seems he was interviewed and had a chance to make his case with the writer. The only way I am going to change my mind is to see far better examples and proofs. Until you dig those up I will remain ignorant, because, smelling bias, I do not care about this enough to dig for it myself and its your baby. Right now its enough for me that I basically agree with his conclusion even if I am not seeing any convincing evidence in that article.

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What the hell is wrong with being homosexual?

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