U.S. deportations of Europeans on track to exceed last year

Are these political refuges?  Asylum seekers?  Economic migrants?

"It's pretty clear ICE is removing anyone undocumented they come across," he said.

Well, that's their job isn't it? I'd be pretty worried if ICE were targeting only particular groups of illegal immigrants while ignoring others.

"The bigger issue is that the Trump administration is wasting really valuable law enforcement resources on many people who aren't a public safety threat, whether they're Irish, Latino, Asian or otherwise."

Is not posing a public safety threat now a licence to break American immigration law? I imagine 99% of illegal immigrants pose no threat but they still have no legal right to be there.

"The bigger issue is that the Trump administration is wasting really valuable law enforcement resources on many people who aren't a public safety threat, whether they're Irish, Latino, Asian or otherwise."

Ain't that the truth.

Months before his arrest, he appeared on a national news show in Ireland to share his experience of living illegally in America.

That would be RTE's Prime Time programme. Still, not very clever if you're trying to keep your head down.

So, the sacred cow that is the Irish Diaspora (legal and illegal) is under attack. Won't play well back in the Republic, no sir.

Well, that's their job isn't it? I'd be pretty worried if ICE were targeting only particular groups of illegal immigrants while ignoring others.

Is not posing a public safety threat now a licence to break American immigration law? I imagine 99% of illegal immigrants pose no threat but they still have no legal right to be there.

Exactly!

I agree that ICE should worry more about illegal immigrants that are involved with serious crimes. Just like police departments should put more effort into dealing with serious crimes. But just like the police shouldn't ignore speeders or parking violations, ICE shouldn't ignore illegal immigrants who have no other criminal actions.

Breaking the law, any law, is a reason for ICE/police to deal with you.

american indians have the sole right to america.

But did they vote for Hillary?

american indians have the sole right to america

Oldest hack 'argument' in the book - btw, American Indians aren't even native to the US either, as they came from Asia via the Bering land bridge, originating from the Indian subcontinent..So I guess we could say Indian Indians are the ones who lay claim to America?

Anyway, it's daft to be in a country illegally and not expect deportation at the very least, no matter whether you aren't a criminal. Every country has immigration laws and enforces them, yet people only criticise the US for starting to finally do what every other country does. Get a visa if you want to live abroad - that's what I've had to do. Takes effort but it's worth it.

American Indians aren't even native to the US either

Oldest hack "argument" in the book? Unless, of course, you mean that we all came from Africa originally, so it shouldn't really matter where people chose to live...

and oh, Russia is not Europe.

Bit of a grey area, that one. Part of it (geographically speaking) is and part of it is Asian.

laws are laws after all

Meh; segregation was law until relatively recently. Not sure I'd have embraced that at all...

Months before his arrest, he appeared on a national news show in Ireland to share his experience of living illegally in America.

One for the Darwin Awards.

laws are laws after all

Meh; segregation was law until relatively recently. Not sure I'd have embraced that at all...

You can't really equate segregation with current immigration law. Although segregation was enforced, the legislation that purported to make it legal was eventually deemed entirely unconstitutional. There is zero constitutional ambiguity about deporting people who's visas have expired. The American people, through their representatives, have every right to decide who can enter and under what conditions they are allowed to stay. It's just like if you and I were living in a sharehouse with friends and we all sat down to draw up rules on when guests are allowed to visit and stay. The rules must be followed or else we will have an erosion of trust and chaos.

It's seems like a slippery slope (and a rejection of democracy itself) to dismiss the laws we morally disagree with. Just imagine if Donald Trump started doing this. I don't think you'd be too happy.

metaterapinToday  04:50 pm JST

btw, American Indians aren't even native to the US either, ... originating from the Indian subcontinent..

Sometimes, a poster says something so astounding the only thing left to do is quote it for posterity.

Sometimes, a poster says something so astounding the only thing left to do is quote it for posterity.

Indeed. Some of the night time absolute gold here gets deleted, more's the pity.

It's seems like a slippery slope (and a rejection of democracy itself) to dismiss the laws we morally disagree with. Just imagine if Donald Trump started doing this. I don't think you'd be too happy.

Yes and no.

Aren't there many, many repugnant laws in place, globally, that people should rail against?

And I wonder why, after decades of Irish living in the US on the quiet, is it now coming to the fore?

Not saying that undersirable trouble maker shouldn't be shown the red card but how about the otherwise law abiding folk? Should they not be dealt with in a case by case basis?

Dom PalmerToday  03:43 pm JST

I agree that ICE should worry more about illegal immigrants that are involved with serious crimes. Just like police departments should put more effort into dealing with serious crimes. But just like the police shouldn't ignore speeders or parking violations, ICE shouldn't ignore illegal immigrants who have no other criminal actions.

Several issues at play here:

The first is that a parking violation isn't going to get your ability to drive taken away forever. Meaning deportation is potentially a rather serious consequence for a potentially very minor crime. It doesn't just affect the person being deported, there may be very serious consequences for legal Americans who depend on this person who may have ultimately committed no more than a bureaucratic error.

The second is that an officer issuing a parking citation takes very little in the way of resources whereas detaining someone, processing them, and then removing them from the country, is rather more expensive.

Taking the two together, you have the strong potential for law-enforcement resources to be wasted removing people who make a positive influence on the lives of Americans, and since those resources are limited, very likely more dangerous criminals whose criminality makes them avoid the spotlight and thus escape low-hanging immigrant fruit status will not be picked up.

Basically what you're calling for is a crackdown on the people who are easiest to catch.

And that's even before we get into the issue of this change making immigrants trust American authorities less. The same people who cheer for this kind of immigrant bullying tend to be people who support "blue lives matter". I don't know about you but if I want to get people to trust the police more, the last thing I'd do is order the police to harass and destroy the lives of people who haven't really done harm to anyone else.

If they violate immigration law - DEPORT THEM.

If they violate any other laws, hold them accountable for those first, then deport them.

Why is there even a discussion? Doesn't matter where they came from.

I'd expect similar treatment if I violated immigration laws in any other country.

Why is there even a discussion? Doesn't matter where they came from.

Actually, in many cases it does. They could be persecuted, imprisoned, tortured or executed if they return to the country they left. Less so, in the case of yer man from Donegal, of course.

Let's say you're an American (have no idea whether you are or not) and war breaks out in your country. Ugly, genocidal civil war. You flee to Canada and have to go to ground. Eventually, maybe 20 years later, after having built up an existence, if not a life; you are deported simply because you never applied for asylum/residence.

You have to go back to war ravaged USA where your life could be in danger.

Is that fair?

Russia by it's history and culture is part of Europe.

And this is an incontrovertible fact.

Russia expanded 'till Far East Asia.

But the culture and language is Eastern European,Slavonic.

@Toasted Heretic

Aren't there many, many repugnant laws in place, globally, that people should rail against?

I totally agree and I fully support everyone's right to protest every law on the books and propose changes based on the merits, but I think those who claim that all immigration law is somehow inherently illegitimate and go around advocating and assisting people to breaking the law (like some of the 'open borders' people) are effectively spitting in the face of their fellow citizens. It crosses the line into undermining democracy in my opinion.

Not saying that undersirable trouble maker shouldn't be shown the red card but how about the otherwise law abiding folk? Should they not be dealt with in a case by case basis?

I suppose it depends on whether any humanitarian exceptions are written into the law. I certainly think there should be. The cases of people brought into the country as young children and then discovering that they are actually illegal immigrants when they reach adulthood is one such case where I think the law should make an exception. However, 99% of people probably won't apply for any exception. Simply being a model citizen for decades after entering the country illegally or overstaying your visa isn't enough to get my sympathy. Perhaps it is for some people, but this is why we have elections.

@M3M3M3

It crosses the line into undermining democracy in my opinion.

Democracy is undermined in the US every single day. Not just by citizens but by the very lawmakers themselves. Is it so surprising, with that in mind, that challenged will arise?

Simply being a model citizen for decades after entering the country illegally or overstaying your visa isn't enough to get my sympathy.

I don't think it's sympathy that's required. More empathy, perhaps. A lot of immigrants have horrible stories of strife and persecution to behold. Maybe it's my wuss bleeding heart at play but I cannot dismiss them all simply because the legalities are at question.

Aside from my SJW/PC/whatever stance; I appreciate your reasoned, decent, well delivered post. Especially at this late hour when quality tends to slide from certain quarters ;-)

@Toasted Heretic

Democracy is undermined in the US every single day. 

That's true, but I don't think we should give up on it. Most citizens want a functioning and enforceable immigration system. My fear is that some of the more extreme 'open borders' advocates are inadvertently making a Trump 2nd term more likely since the average voter is never going to get on board with them.

A lot of immigrants have horrible stories of strife and persecution to behold.

They sure do, no denying that. But you know who probably has even more horrible stories to tell? The million of vulnerable and unfortunate souls that are left behind in the countries these immigrants came from because they didn't have enough money to buy that plane ticket to America, or pay people smugglers to cross the border, or didn't qualify to get a student or tourist visa. The obvious fact that we can't take in everyone raises the question of why, if this partly a humanitarian excercise, should we offer special treatment to those who have managed to physically cross our border because they are either the luckiest, the wealthiest, the cleverest, the most able bodied, or have the least hesitation to break the law?

This is the underlying moral question I find troubling. I don't like how most of the west's immigration policies seems to give disproportionately generous 'rewards' to those who manage to physically make it across our borders (as if it's a marathon finish line) but little or nothing to those patiently waiting to immigrate through legal avenues.

Maybe it's my wuss bleeding heart at play but I cannot dismiss them all simply because the legalities are at question.

I certainly don't think you're a 'wuss bleeding heart'. Empathy is a good human quality and you are lucky to have so much of it. The world definitely needs more. I always enjoy reading your well reasoned posts as well and I do understand exacty where you're coming from since I used to share almost idential political views in my 20s. Unfortunately I became older, grumpier, cynical and a bit more conservative with age.

I guess there's no easy answer here, especially considering the problem has been allowed to fester in America for decades and it's closely tied to the broken legal immigration system, economics and demography. I think some compromise needs to found for the millions of longterm illegal immigrants but I think it should be something less than full citizenship to show that there is at least some price for jumping the queue. But I'm not American so my opinion doesn't really count for much.

Several issues at play here:

Why do so many people online not understand that analogies are not exact similarities?

I was making the point that ALL laws should be enforced and that anyone who breaks any law, even a minor one, should know that there is the chance they will be caught and suffer the prescribed penalty.

I also stated that those who break more serious laws should have more resources used to catch them.

And the fact that someone may have avoided capture for an extended period, or decided to have children while knowing they were subject to capture and depotation at any moment is NOT a reason to ignore them or to let them go if they are caught. Some laws have a limited time period during which they can be prosecuted, immigration is not one of those laws. Congress could have put a time limit on immigration violations if they desired or subsequent lawmakers could have added it to the existing law. But they didn't and unless they do law enforcement agencies should enforce the law as written.

I don't really understand the common view here that only "dangerous" illegal immigrants should be deported. A visa over-stayer is in fact an illegal immigrant and is already subject to deportation. Otherwise what's the purpose of the visa system? And to ignore such people is a slap in the fact of all the immigrants from all over the world who have put up with the bureaucratic mess to become "documented" legal immigrants.

The common view is that international law support entirely open borders is mistaken. In fact, you have no right to cross any international border -- absent, of course, an agreement between two nations that waive customs checks.

good. people living in a country illegally should be deported. I worked hard to get my legal papers to live in a foreign country, so should they

If they violate immigration law - DEPORT THEM.

If they violate any other laws, hold them accountable for those first, then deport them.

Why is there even a discussion? Doesn't matter where they came from.

I'd expect similar treatment if I violated immigration laws in any other country.

Exactly, if the people don't like the laws of our land, then don't come. When I go to another country, I always have to follow their rules and law and often to my displeasure, but rules are in place for a reason and without them you have complete anarchy.

@Toasted Heretic

They should have filed for asylum on arrival. Start the proceedings. Don't just disappear into a country and hope it goes away. That would give them a period of legal residency while their asylum case is considered.

If the country accepts them, fine. They are legal immigrants.

If the country does not accept them, they need to be deported.

Is it fair when someone decides to violate immigration laws?

No.

Nobody said life was fair. I specifically recall my mother telling me that many, many, times.

But I'm not American so my opinion doesn't really count for much.

I wouldn't say that. Here we are on JT commenting on many different countries, not to mention Japan.

I just find it ironic, considering the US was built and composed of immigrants. The land of the free seems to be fraying around the edges. I wouldn't blame the Trump admin alone, Obama was doing the deprtations thing as well.

I also find it ironic that for many generations, Irish people clamoured to get into places like the US and it wasn't easy for them. They were met with hostility and suspicion and often treated badly. But this mindset that persists even up to today that they have a right to be accepted in the US? Why them over other people? Why are immigrants to Ireland often treated poorly?

Ideally, I'd like to see a world without borders, walls or barriers. It's unlikely, of course, in this day and age with such overwhelming hatred out there but you've got to have a dream, right?

@Toasted Heretic

Ideally, I'd like to see a world without borders, walls or barriers. It's unlikely, of course, in this day and age with such overwhelming hatred out there but you've got to have a dream, right?

I think it's nominally possible to create a world with open borders. Passports, visas and work permits are a relatively recent phenomenon. We could go back to the way things were in the middle ages, but I think a few things in our society would definetly have to change. First, we would have to either completely dismantle the social welfare system or restrict it only to 'first class' longterm citizens, because the system wouldn't be financially viable any other way and nobody would be willing to contribute to it.

Second, if we reserve voting rights and social benefits for only longterm citizens, citizenship would have to become dramatically more difficult to get. Simply residing in the area and paying taxes for 5 years could never be enough if everyone in the world is easily able to acheive this. Perhaps we would need some system where the current citizens would vote to grant others citizenship after offering some type of exceptional contribution to the community (much like the middle ages)?

Third, we would have to scrap all anti-discrimination legislation. The longterm citizens would probably want to reserve certain professions for themselves (just like bakers, butchers, candlestick makers and other guilds in the middle ages , and even today in the case of government workers).

Even if you unilaterally erase borders and abolish immigration controls, the residents of any city are always going to band together in a community and shut the gates of the city once the situation becomes unsustainable, so maybe it's wise to admit this aspect of human nature and control it before it does? Because even if we aren't managing immigration on a macro level, people will inevitably still manage it on a micro level. They will shun businesses owned by or employing undesirable foreigners (just like the middle ages), refuse to hire foreigners, take the law into their own hands and even riot in the streets if the numbers get to be too much. So I think abolishing borders is theoretically possible, but I wonder if the society that would result is one you and I would actually like to live in? It sounds pretty regressive and horrible.

It sounds pretty regressive and horrible.

It does, so I'm going to go with the Gene Rodenberry future instead :-)

I'm going to go with the Gene Rodenberry future instead :-)

lol. But didn't the Federation also have borders? There was a neutral zone and everything, if I remember correctly.

Wasn't the President's wife an illegal working in the US?

The ICE is finally being allowed to do it's job according to the laws that have been in place for quite a long time.   Those who have been breaking the law by overstaying their visa's are only now complaining because they've been treated with kid gloves and the laws have not been enforced.   So it's shocking to them because they didn't expect our government to actively enforce those laws.   And now it is and they believe they have some ideological "right" to stay in the US.    Just because people try to believe hard enough in a fantasy version of how they "think" things should work, doesn't make it true.

So, the sacred cow that is the Irish Diaspora (legal and illegal) is under attack. Won't play well back in the Republic, no sir.

Actually I think it plays pretty well back in flyover country. The far Left makes everything about race when everyone else sees it as an issue of legal and illegal and respect for the people and their laws.

Meh; segregation was law until relatively recently. Not sure I'd have embraced that at all...

Apparently people used to have common sense and could tell the difference between right and wrong;. Things like slavery, apartheid, and segregation - bad. Immigration laws practiced by every country on the planet - good. But let's not try to muddy the waters for some ideological agenda.

but how about the otherwise law abiding folk? Should they not be dealt with in a case by case basis?

They can obey the law or otherwise be deported on a case by case basis.