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U.S. draws down Ukraine embassy presence as war fears mount

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By MATTHEW LEE

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We are right behind you,...really far behind you.

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

It's beginning to look like Putin wants to start WW3.

God help Ukraine.

2 ( +16 / -14 )

It's beginning to look like Putin wants to start WW3.

I may not like Putin but if WW3 starts this time it will be western Europe and the USA that caused it.

As I pointed out before, if Mexico had it's elected leader (corrupt or not) forced out by Chinese or Russian backed opposition, then decided to join a Chinese or Russian military pact that was going to put troops on the USA border, the USA would not sit by and let it happen, it would invade at the earliest opportunity before troops from the military pact arrive.

Russia has made it clear as long as Ukraine remains non NATO it can live with the situation. But Russia will not tolerate NATO in it's backyard, no different than the USA wouldn't have China or Russia in it's.

4 ( +18 / -14 )

Inventing and fueling a war that doesn't exist.

What a sick country..

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Russia has made it clear as long as Ukraine remains non NATO it can live with the situation. But Russia will not tolerate NATO in it's backyard, no different than the USA wouldn't have China or Russia in it's.

You mean the situation where they illegally annexed parts of Ukraine? Yeah, I sure Russia could live with a situation where they can invade neighboring countries with impunity.

2 ( +14 / -12 )

Agreement on measures to ensure the security of The Russian Federation and member States of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization

https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/nato/1790803/?lang=en

Well, here is a English language version of Presidents Putin 8 point treaty demands.

It would have far reaching geo political consequences for Eastern Europeans/EU way beyond Ukraine.

Yet Germany, French Government are refusing to rule these ludicrous proposals/demands out

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Antiquesaving nailed it!

boot on the other foot people!

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

You mean the situation where they illegally annexed parts of Ukraine? 

Annexing Crimea is about as illegal as China annexing Taiwan. As in not at all, since Crimea has been part of Russia for hundreds of years.

-3 ( +8 / -11 )

You mean the situation where they illegally annexed parts of Ukraine?

Wasn't it the same scenario as Kosovo? That one was all good and legit, right? Will of the people and all that jazz.

-6 ( +6 / -12 )

AntiquesavingToday 09:20 am JST

As I pointed out before, if Mexico had it's elected leader (corrupt or not) forced out by Chinese or Russian backed opposition, then decided to join a Chinese or Russian military pact that was going to put troops on the USA border, the USA would not sit by and let it happen, it would invade at the earliest opportunity before troops from the military pact arrive.

Russia has made it clear as long as Ukraine remains non NATO it can live with the situation. But Russia will not tolerate NATO in it's backyard, no different than the USA wouldn't have China or Russia in it's.

Well said. People who can't or won't understand this basic point are ignoring at least 2,500 years of geopolitical history going back to Thucydides' Peloponnesian War.

-5 ( +9 / -14 )

I may not like Putin but if WW3 starts this time it will be western Europe and the USA that caused it.

How so? At the moment, Western Europe and the USA are literally doing nothing to start a war and everything they can to try to prevent one. Putin on the other hand is the one massing troops on Ukraine's border and threatening to invade Ukraine with no valid reason under international law for doing so. What exactly has Ukraine done to justify Russia invading it? Absolutely nothing as far as I can tell, other than wanting to have better relations with the West, which isn't a valid reason to invade a country.

I mean, at what point in your world does Putin actually become the agent of actions that Putin himself does????

As I pointed out before, if Mexico had it's elected leader (corrupt or not) forced out by Chinese or Russian backed opposition, then decided to join a Chinese or Russian military pact that was going to put troops on the USA border, the USA would not sit by and let it happen, it would invade at the earliest opportunity before troops from the military pact arrive.

This isn't an accurate analogy - the Ukraine has not joined NATO and nobody has any plans to put any troops in Ukraine. The entire pretext is solely based on the hypothetical possibility that this might one day happen.

But giving the benefit of the doubt, lets say this was an accurate analogy. Are you saying that the United States be justified in militarily attacking Mexico in that situation? I sure wouldn't be comfortable with that. If Mexico wants an alliance with China, wouldn't the appropriate US response be to use diplomatic, economic and other means of persuasion to convince it that remaining a US ally is its best option? Rather than threatening it with a brutal war that would cost many innocent people their lives?

Russia has made it clear as long as Ukraine remains non NATO it can live with the situation. But Russia will not tolerate NATO in it's backyard, no different than the USA wouldn't have China or Russia in it's.

Give me a break, this is literally the exact same argument that was used by appeasers of Hitler in the 1930s ("so long as Germany has the Sudetenland it can live with the situation", etc).

6 ( +15 / -9 )

Russia can't do that. Only US and allies can rightly invade other nations.

2 ( +14 / -12 )

If Russia invades Ukraine then they started a war with Ukraine.

If other countries join then they may well have started ww3

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

“Do not travel to Ukraine due to the increased threats of Russian military action and COVID-19”

idiots are in charge. “And COVID?”

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

I thought only US has a right to start new wars?

:D

( Please don't get mad at me~ )

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Here comes the bear! Let’s make it painful for him so he doesn’t do this again.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

US diplomats’ families ordered to leave Ukraine:

Could this be the prelude of something that is undesirable going to happen in Ukraine?

Under normal circumstances, US would not order families of its diplomats to quit any nation unnecessarily..

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

LOL what a "movement"...

Let me be frank.

If Russia wanted to "invade" Ukraine could so anytime and it could be quick thing-matter of days.

This is just circuss for one-sided propaganda brainwashed folks who have no idea what is going on there in real....

Stay calm,open your chips and take it easy.Ukraine is broken country for a very long time so yes there is high chance for new maidan and change/overthrowing of recent government but this time without cookies from Mrs.Nuland..../you may know what I mean/

2 ( +7 / -5 )

Although there hasn’t been and still is no danger of a war, we can all not exclude now the small but significant probability, that this enforced mental hype might develop one day into a self fulfilling prophecy. But I am optimistic that it is still possible to avoid walking into that cheap trap.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

If Russia wanted to "invade" Ukraine could so anytime and it could be quick thing-matter of days.

And this is good because?

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

@rainyday

Western Europe and the USA are literally doing nothing to start a war

The Ukrainian regime is eager to re-start the war against Donbass it lost in 2014-15. And the regime hopes for the NATO back-up.

Putin on the other hand is the one massing troops on Ukraine's border

Dozens, or even hundreds of kilometers from the border. Can any U.S. troops movement in Florida be described as a "preparation for invasion of Cuba" and be used for a noisy several-months-long media propaganda campaign, just like with the present Ukraine situation?

and threatening to invade Ukraine with no valid reason

Can you please cite even one of Putin's threats to invade?

Give me a break, this is literally the exact same argument that was used by appeasers of Hitler in the 1930s

NATO appeased Albanian nationalists in 90s when it stole a Serbian province of Kosovo. Hitler needed "Lebensraum" for his Reich, Albanians needed Lebensraum for their "Great Albania", and NATO did the job for them. Return Kosovo to Serbia, and only after that you should be allowed to open your mouth about Crimea.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

The Ukrainian regime is eager to re-start the war against Donbass it lost in 2014-15. And the regime hopes for the NATO back-up.

That would be the Donbass region that is part of Ukraine, correct? The part that Russia

Dozens, or even hundreds of kilometers from the border. Can any U.S. troops movement in Florida be described as a "preparation for invasion of Cuba" and be used for a noisy several-months-long media propaganda campaign, just like with the present Ukraine situation?

Well, if the US was amassing troops in Florida and positioning them to attack Cuba with all the equipment, etc they would need to do so, in the context of the US having recently invaded and annexed part of Cuba and arming an active insurrection in another part then yeah, I think Cuba would have valid reason to be concerned that the US was about to invade it.

Can you please cite even one of Putin's threats to invade?

He has literally already invaded the Ukraine, just in case you missed what has happened in Crimea.

NATO appeased Albanian nationalists in 90s when it stole a Serbian province of Kosovo. Hitler needed "Lebensraum" for his Reich, Albanians needed Lebensraum for their "Great Albania", and NATO did the job for them. Return Kosovo to Serbia, and only after that you should be allowed to open your mouth about Crimea.

So let me get this straight, the Russian invasion of Crimea is justified because of NATO intervention on behalf of Kosovo more than 20 years ago - a war in which neither Russia nor Ukraine participated?

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

The coup regime in Ukraine is desperate. It's western backers know it is tottering on the verge of collapse and when it happens, the people may well seek justified vengeance on those who engineered the coup, especially Americans and Germans.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

So let me get this straight, the Russian invasion of Crimea is justified because of NATO intervention on behalf of Kosovo more than 20 years ago - a war in which neither Russia nor Ukraine participated?

It's a little different. The people of Crimea got a chance to vote and decide themselves. Self-determination. Serbia was subject to terror bombing of civilian infrastructure in order for them to allow NATO to occupy Kosovo.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

It's a little different. The people of Crimea got a chance to vote and decide themselves. Self-determination. 

OK, so let me see if I get this straight. Countries are allowed to choose parts of neighboring countries that they want, and then they can invade that part and its all justifiable so long as - after the invasion and while under military occupation - they hold a referendum (which doesn't even provide an option for maintaining the pre-invasion situation) to justify their invasion after the fact?

Serbia was subject to terror bombing of civilian infrastructure in order for them to allow NATO to occupy Kosovo.

Again, more than 20 years ago and a war that had nothing to do with either Ukraine or Russia. I fail to see the relevance.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

@rainyday

That would be the Donbass region that is part of Ukraine

The region against which the Ukrainian Nazi coup plotters of 2014 started a war under the motto "Be Ukrainian or be dead", but got a bloody nose instead.

I think Cuba would have valid reason to be concerned

Very good, thank you. Then I hope you understand the people of Donbass who suffered from incessant Ukrainian artillery bombardments since 2014 have all the reasons to be afraid of the regime to re-start a full-scale war with NATO support, in blatant violation of the Minsk peace agreements the regime signed in 2015 after its defeat.

He has literally already invaded the Ukraine

I asked for a quote, even one, of many threats made by Putin, as you claimed. Can you be to the point?

the Russian invasion of Crimea is justified because of NATO intervention on behalf of Kosovo

Oh no. Just after what it did to Serbia NATO has zero moral authority, absolutely no moral high ground to shed crocodile's tears about Crimea and give lectures about territorial integrity of other countries.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Countries are allowed to choose parts of neighboring countries that they want

The local people wanted it. Self determination. I don't agree such things should be permitted because public opinion can be manipulated by major powers. The point is, what the Russians did in Crimea was much better than NATO did in Serbia/Kosovo.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Again, more than 20 years ago and a war that had nothing to do with either Ukraine or Russia. I fail to see the relevance.

It was 20 years but the scumbags are still occupying Kosovo and the local people have no say on the matter. The point is the rank hypocrisy. It's not ok for the Russians to peacefully and in accordance with the wishes of the local people annex Crimea but it's ok for NATO to terror bomb civilian infrastructure in order to wrest control of Kosovo from Serbia.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

The local people wanted it. Self determination. I don't agree such things should be permitted because public opinion can be manipulated by major powers. The point is, what the Russians did in Crimea was much better than NATO did in Serbia/Kosovo.

It was 20 years but the scumbags are still occupying Kosovo and the local people have no say on the matter. The point is the rank hypocrisy. It's not ok for the Russians to peacefully and in accordance with the wishes of the local people annex Crimea but it's ok for NATO to terror bomb civilian infrastructure in order to wrest control of Kosovo from Serbia.

Yes, yes NATO is hypocrtical and does bad stuff all the time, I get that.

But so what?

None of this means that Putin has any right to invade Ukraine, nor does it help me to understand why Russia is somehow justified in what it is doing, which seems to be the implication you are making.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

This isn't an accurate analogy - the Ukraine has not joined NATO and nobody has any plans to put any troops in Ukraine. "

The only reason for that is that NATO knows how Putin would react , the exact way that he is now. Nato has been testing the waters for years to see how far Russia,s red line can be pushed.

The entire pretext is solely based on the hypothetical possibility that this might one day happen."

Well, looking at the recent history of Nato expansion in Eastern Europe ( the ex Warsaw pact countries ) that hypothetical possibility is very high indeed.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

I met some Swedish guys coming in directly from the airport cussing Immigration at Moscow and swearing to NEVER even so much as transit the country again…that was 1996.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

None of this means that Putin has any right to invade Ukraine, nor does it help me to understand why Russia is somehow justified in what it is doing, which seems to be the implication you are making.

Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine. Whether or not such an invasion would be justified is a trickier situation. It is an extremely unpopular coup regime but in a perfect world, the Ukrainian people would take it out. But it relies on NATO to stay in power so looking at it that way, Russia is justified invading. It's a complicated situation.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

If President Putin does invade Ukraine and fails with this. Königsberg (That Russian Enclave called Kealiningrad) between Poland and Lithuania should be returned to German, (East Prussia) as well as the Polish homeland that was taken by the Soviet Union and made into Belarus.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

If President Putin does invade Ukraine and fails with this. Königsberg (That Russian Enclave called Kealiningrad) between Poland and Lithuania should be returned to German, (East Prussia) as well as the Polish homeland that was taken by the Soviet Union and made into Belarus.

Hardline fascists are really amusing. What of Prussia? Should Poland return that to Germany?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Ain't that typical of the US?

August 8, 2008: armed & ordered Georgia to attach Russian Peace keepers in break away republic of South Ossetia. Russian Army responded, destroyed the Georgians & the US ran away leaving the aggressor to their fait.

May 2014 Ukrainian, backed by US, attack on its own Russian-speaking people of Donbass province. the result: total destruction of the Ukraine Army, the division of the country & the pulling out of the US so called advisors.

August 2021: Don't we all remember what happened to those, who tied their lives with the American invaders of Afghanistan?

Now in Washington the scenario is being prepared again for Ukraine. These people never learn from history.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine.

Yes, I hope it stays that way.

Whether or not such an invasion would be justified is a trickier situation.

No, its an extremely easy question. There are only two recognized justifications for war under international law, either in self defence in response to an armed attack or under the authorization of a UN Security Council Resolution. Ukraine has not attacked Russia, nor does Russia have a UNSC resolution authorizing it to invade Ukraine. Case closed.

 It is an extremely unpopular coup regime but in a perfect world, the Ukrainian people would take it out. 

If a government being unpopular provided other countries with a justification to invade that country, then there would be few governments left.

But it relies on NATO to stay in power 

Its not a member of NATO, and even if it were NATO doesn't interfere in the domestic politics of its member states.

looking at it that way, Russia is justified invading.

So....wanting to join NATO justifies one country invading another? Nope. See above.

It's a complicated situation.

It seems surprisingly simple if these are the best arguments you can come up with.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

I asked for a quote, even one, of many threats made by Putin, as you claimed. Can you be to the point?

The fact that he has not literally said "I am going to invade Ukraine" is an idiotic point to raise in his defence. If someone is raising their fist to punch me, I don't need them to say "I am going to punch you" to know that they are threatening to punch me (perhaps you do?). Actions speak louder than words. Putin's actions - invading Ukraine, arming separatists there, amassing troops on the border - all send the message loud and clear.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@rainyday

The fact that he has not literally said "I am going to invade Ukraine" is an idiotic point to raise in his defence

To say " he is threating" and then "'all right, he is not threating, so what, I think he is a threat" is an idiotic way to defend the present warmongering NATO hysteria.

Anyway, nice to see you have no objection to the rest of my points.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

You mean the situation where they illegally annexed parts of Ukraine? Yeah, I sure Russia could live with a situation where they can invade neighboring countries with impunity.

Which part was illegally annexed? Crimea? It was part of Russia far longer than part of Ukraine untill pro Ukraine USSR leader have it to Ukraine. (Fact).

The eastern part of Ukraine? Still not part of Russia.

What about the fascist and western backed coup that removed the elected president? Oh had it been the other way the West would be screaming.

Look at every Ukrainian election since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Right down the present separation lines it has voted 50% 50% complete opposite to eachother with the pro west or pro Russian side winning be a tiny fraction the division was inevitable and became more so once the pro west Ukrainian Nationalists took power enacting anti Russian language and minority laws.

This is the government that views Stephan Bandera a hero, and gave him hero status only revoking it after western powers protested the move,

Bandera and UPA are looked up as heros by the Nationalists ignoring the fact they were involved in ethnic cleansing of Jews, ethnic: Polish, Roma, Latvian, Russian, etc....

Long before the division, long before the fighting, western Ukraine was embracing it's nationalists side erecting statues honouring Bandera and UPA and other WW 2 nationalist, these are the same people that joined the Nazi including the SS and concentration camp guards.

So what we have are two evils Putin and the Ukrainian right now in power, there is no good guy.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

rainydayToday  10:28 am JST

I recommend looking up Ukraine history.

See how it got Crimea, see how it acted during WW2, look up UPA and Stephan Bandera, look up the present day Nationalist in the government in the western parts of Ukraine, erecting statues to those that did ethnic cleansing, look up the plethora of anti Russian and other ethnic minority languages.

Look up every election results since the break up of the USSR split right along east west ethnic lines.

I wouldn't trust Putin but even less the facist backed Ukrainian government.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Which part was illegally annexed? Crimea? It was part of Russia far longer than part of Ukraine untill pro Ukraine USSR leader have it to Ukraine. (Fact).

The fact that a part of a country used to be a part of another country does not make it legal for that second country to invade and annex that part of the country. This should be obvious I would have thought and it is why almost no country in the world except for a handful of minor ones (North Korea, etc) recognizes the legality of the annexation.

The eastern part of Ukraine? Still not part of Russia.

Nor should it be.

What about the fascist and western backed coup that removed the elected president? Oh had it been the other way the West would be screaming.

What about it? I would think that would be an internal matter for the Ukrainians to decide on, not something that justifies Russia in violently invading the country.

So what we have are two evils Putin and the Ukrainian right now in power, there is no good guy.

I'm not defending the Ukrainian government or its nationalist politics, which I agree is ugly, here. But I am strongly opposing using these to cobble together an argument justifying the Russian government violently invading the country in violation of every norm of international law that we have in order to impose a new government that will be just as bad if not worse than the one you are complaining about, just tilted towards Russia rather than the West.

See how it got Crimea, see how it acted during WW2, look up UPA and Stephan Bandera, look up the present day Nationalist in the government in the western parts of Ukraine, erecting statues to those that did ethnic cleansing, look up the plethora of anti Russian and other ethnic minority languages.

Yeah, and I'm sure Ukrainians would be telling me to look up what Stalin did to them in the 1930s. I'm not interested in the past, I'm interested in what is happening there right now.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Yeah, and I'm sure Ukrainians would be telling me to look up what Stalin did to them in the 1930s. I'm not interested in the past,

Yes they would along with Beria omitting to point out they were both Not Russian but Georgian and treated ethnic Russians, Kosacks, etc...just as bad as Ukrainians.

And the past has everything to do with this

What about it? I would think that would be an internal matter for the Ukrainians to decide on, not something that justifies Russia in violently invading the country.

Strange it is and internal matter when the west backs a coup ousting the pro Russian President but interface when the 50% Russian part of the country refuses to accept the coup and goes it's own way.

Remember the country is almost exactly 50% pro Russian and 50% pro facist ( not pro west as the anti ethic laws make that clear).

0 ( +2 / -2 )

rainyday

Ukraine has not attacked Russia.

Yes, Ukraine has not attacked Russia, but it sure has attacked Russian-speaking Ukrainians, killing & wounding tens of thousands of them before Russia intervened & started arming the people of Donbass.

I suggest just one address to the events of May 2, 2014:

Ukrainian rightists burn alive 39 at Odessa union building

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

I suggest just one address to the events of May 2, 2014:

Ah yes. Because of one alleged incident nearly a decade ago, which allegedly cost 39 people their lives, Russia is totally justified in invading Ukraine.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Russia is totally justified in invading Ukraine

Is Russia invading?? When? You have any links to prove what you wrote?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Obviously you don't know the difference between a fascist government and a dictator.

I'd say the difference is largely semantical.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

Putin couldn't care less what the ethnicity of those he rules over.

And yet somehow this is in part the justification for the buildup of force along the Ukraine-Russian borders. We gotta protect the ethnic Ukrainians in Russia, don't we? Even in your own posts you admit Russian ethnicity is important in the matter.

The present Ukrainian government is all to obsessed with the "Ukrainess" of the people openly embracing the UPA and Stephan Bandera, openly going after ethnic Minorities,

Well, if a neighboring country illegally annexes a significant part of my country, I'd certainly be concerned others in my country may hold sympathetic views, and I'd argue you'd be justified in exercising more caution than may otherwise be warranted.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

And the past has everything to do with this

Yes, I’m sure it matters very much to the parties involved. But I’m neither Ukrainian nor Russian nor am I interested in picking a side in what sounds like a long and disagreeable relationship between two East European nationalities going back centuries.

What I do care about is international law and a rules based system in which neighboring countries don’t invade each other. That is a principle worth defending for all our sakes. Right now Russia is the one threatening to do break it, not Ukraine. So I find myself being critical of Russia not because I’m taking sides on whatever historical quarrels they have, but because Russia is doing something extremely dangerous that has ramifications way beyond Ukraine and Russia.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Well, if a neighboring country illegally annexes a significant part of my country, I'd certainly be concerned others in my country may hold sympathetic views, and I'd argue you'd be justified in exercising more caution than may otherwise be warranted.

OK then why are they also going after Polish, Jewish, Kosack, Latvian, Roma etc .. minorities?

Don't try suggesting ethnic Polish, Latvian are pro Russia.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Remember when the Ukranian Pres. Yushchenko was poisoned while campaigning against Russian-backed candidate Yanukovych

0 ( +1 / -1 )

ZorotoJan. 24  10:06 am JST

You mean the situation where they illegally annexed parts of Ukraine? 

Annexing Crimea is about as illegal as China annexing Taiwan. As in not at all, since Crimea has been part of Russia for hundreds of years.

Crimea was attached to the Ukrainian SSR by the Soviet Union after World War II, it is rightfuly Ukraine's. You are also wrong about Taiwan, it is an independent nation and the People's Republic of China has no rightful claim, as they are not the direct successor to the mainland ROC nor the Qing Dynasty, who were the last to hold the Island.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Crimea was attached to the Ukrainian SSR by the Soviet Union after World War II, it is rightfuly Ukraine's.

Ok here is what doesn't make sense.

On one hand Ukraine claims that the whole period of the USSR was an illegal occupation and holds Russia responsible.

But then claims Crimea is Ukrainian based on being given it by the USSR leader that the Ukraine claims were occupiers.

So on one hand what Ukraine doesn't like the USSR was illegitimate but if it benefits Ukraine then it is legitimate.

Talk about selective history.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

I suggest just one address to the events of May 2, 2014:

Ukrainian rightists burn alive 39 at Odessa union building

Ah yes. Because of one alleged incident nearly a decade ago, which allegedly cost 39 people their lives, Russia is totally justified in invading Ukraine."

The videos photographs and witness accounts of this "alleged incident" as you call it seem pretty convincing as in there is nothing just " alleged" about it.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

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