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U.S. experts debate: Who should be next in line for vaccine?

34 Comments
By MIKE STOBBE

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34 Comments

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I opt for politicians and people working in/for pharmaceutical companies. Only they can save us.

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

The problem is that decision will have to be taken without all the necessary information, the first step is relatively uncomplicated, health care personnel is very necessary and have frequent contact with the most vulnerable population, so vaccinating them protects the health services and can lower the transmission to patients in high risk of complication.

But to decide who should be next it is necessary to know more than just efficacy in preventing complications, transmission for example becomes as important. If the vaccine ends up not reducing transmission (not likely) then the people at risk of complications should be prioritized, because they would remain exposed to the infection even if everybody around them is vaccinated.

But if transmission is heavily reduced in the vaccinated people then essential workers may need to go first, because the vaccine would be protecting not only them but also the multiple people that they come in contact, so indirectly one vaccine would be protecting several people.

Many other things like this are still unknown, so it is terribly difficult to make a decision on priorities right now, slowly it will become easier as more doses and information is available.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

I opt for politicians and people working in/for pharmaceutical companies. Only they can save us.

Excellent idea!

People might feel a little more assured if the CEO and other top executives of the pharmaceutical companies get the vaccines (not just saline), as well as the researchers that designed them, and those who compile all the clinical trial data.

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

People might feel a little more assured if the CEO and other top executives of the pharmaceutical companies get the vaccines (not just saline), as well as the researchers that designed them, and those who compile all the clinical trial data.

So you think they can pull off a huge conspiracy involving hundreds of the best health professionals in the world, with trials in many countries, hiding results from tens of thousands of volunteers replacing them with perfectly coherent fake data, for almost a full year, to prove as safe and effective something that actually is not; but then you feel more assured when they are shown receiving the vaccine because it would be impossible for them to fake it?

If your premise is that they can fool every single professional in the world (or that everybody is on the magical conspiracy with them) then there would be no point in them doing anything much easier to fake. That is just nonsense.

6 ( +11 / -5 )

Who should be next in line for vaccine?

I would say Bill Gates, Fauci, and all the others who are pushing this on the population.

-10 ( +4 / -14 )

The poorest

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@RawBeer

People might feel a little more assured if the CEO and other top executives of the pharmaceutical companies get the vaccines (not just saline), as well as the researchers that designed them, and those who compile all the clinical trial data.

Yeah, that's not exactly going to be the fearsome prospect for them that you imagine.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

Anybody but me is next in line.

Be my guest... I insist.

-7 ( +5 / -12 )

The developers and producers...just to see if they really dare to expose themselves to that allergic cocktail and its other severe side effects.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

US VP Pence just took the vaccine live on national TV. Biden will do the same in a few days. Then Fauci too

Even Putin already called on the public to take the vaccine

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Will Trump take up to the plate?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

just to see if they really dare to expose themselves to that allergic cocktail and its other severe side effects

Allergenic.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Even Putin already called on the public to take the vaccine

Last I read, he wasn't ready to take it himself.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

The manufacturer are shielded from. Lawsuit, they can put vaccination on the market, whether it works or not working

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

The manufacturer are shielded from. Lawsuit, they can put vaccination on the market, whether it works or not working

Those two things are different. Vaccines are tested by the government specialists to corroborate safety and efficacy, every single lot. It a vaccine do not work it cannot be put on the market, that is part of the approval process. Thinking lawsuits are the only form of control something can have is not correct.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

The manufacturer are shielded from. Lawsuit, they can put vaccination on the market, whether it works or not working

I always find it interesting when someone phrases a sentence as if they know what they’re talking about, when the sentence proves that they don’t know what they’re talking about.

Vaccine makers make a vaccine that they ask the government for approval for. The government looks at the data, and if it appears safe, the government approves it. Vaccine makers can’t just put a random chemical in a bottle and sell it as a vaccine.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

The manufacturer are shielded from. Lawsuit, they can put vaccination on the market, whether it works or not working

It is unfortunately TRUE and these vaccine companies have applied and are receiving liability protection (short term and long term effects) from multiple countries now...not just in the US. In Japan the government will front the costs from vaccine injury but who wants to take the risk of injury or adverse events...can you imagine your kids getting vaccine injured and having to apply for compensation?

Article: You can’t sue Pfizer or Moderna if you have severe Covid vaccine side effects. The government likely won't compensate you for damages either

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

Looks like you and your family are on your own...inject at your own risk cause 100% of the risk is on the decision you make to vaccinate.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

It is unfortunately TRUE and these vaccine companies have applied and are receiving liability protection (short term and long term effects) from multiple countries now...not just in the US.

One this is not unfortunate because it lets people receive compensation without proving vaccines are the cause of any problem, and two it is not true. As I already proved to you lawsuits are not the only form of liability and companies still face very strong consequences if their products are not what the government approved, the best part? those consequences come before that lot of vaccine is even on the market.

Also your article is not applicable worldwide, why would a funding problem in US affect anybody in Japan? are you on the impression that the USA funds the world? because that is not true.

You keep copy-pasting the same text over and over, but you are unable to defend it when someone proves is wrong or misleading, an honest person should consider this and think that maybe you are unable to do so because it is not correct information.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

America's longer term problem isn't who gets the vaccine first, it's how long will it be dragged down by those who won't take it.

Australia and NZ have already dealt with the issue, and will be opening up to other countries that properly deal with it as soon as they can. Countries that deal with the virus will recover economically quicker than those who don't.

And America is filled with a LOT of people who won't be willing to take the vaccine. That's going to drag them down. Which, after the mess Trump has left the country in after four years (and he's not done yet, nope!), it may take America decades to recover.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

If the pharmaceutical companies are so confident their products are safe (and they've been approved by governments), why would they need to apply for liability protection? If a product is not safe, don't release it. If they think it is safe, they need to stand behind it and pay compensation if litigants can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the product caused harm.

That's how it works with everything else. Why should vaccines be exempt?

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

Also your article is not applicable worldwide, 

Correct. It will depend on the country but they will request liability protection from any vaccine injuries and have the government compensate individuals who are injured. This is unfortunate but great for vax companies.

"This is a unique situation where we as a company simply cannot take the risk if in ... four years the vaccine is showing side effects,” Ruud Dobber, a member of Astra’s senior executive team, told Reuters.

“In the contracts we have in place, we are asking for indemnification. For most countries it is acceptable to take that risk on their shoulders because it is in their national interest,” he said, adding that Astra and regulators were making safety and tolerability a top priority.

Dobber would not name the countries."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-astrazeneca-results-vaccine-liability-idUSKCN24V2EN

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

f the pharmaceutical companies are so confident their products are safe (and they've been approved by governments), why would they need to apply for liability protection? If a product is not safe, don't release it. If they think it is safe, they need to stand behind it and pay compensation if litigants can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the product caused harm. That's how it works with everything else. Why should vaccines be exempt?

That is perfectly well known, because legal systems leave open the chance of swamping any and all companies with lawsuits that will make impossible to do anything even if every single one of those lawsuits are defeated. This is NOT liability protection, no matter how many times you want to mislead people repeating it, it there are still many other kinds of responsibilities that the companies have to assume, just not that one.

It is also in the interest of the people that sue for damages, because as long as there is a possibility the vaccines is related there is no need to actually prove it was the case to receive compensation, so instead of giving all their money to lawyers for something that most of the time is impossible to prove (that there could be no other reason for the damage) they can just receive the money.

Any company can choose not to sell their products without this protection, this is done so the government can promote or make a requirement for the vaccine, because of the economical and public health benefits a safe and effective health measure brings to the country that implements it. The government takes this one responsibility from the companies, in exchange it puts the vaccine under strict vigilance with their own experts and laboratories and everybody wins, except of course for the antivaxxers and their illogical fears based on world conspiracies. Once again they are proved wrong, so desperation makes them grasp at straws.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

Correct. It will depend on the country but they will request liability protection from any vaccine injuries and have the government compensate individuals who are injured. This is unfortunate but great for vax companies.

Again you are mistaken, the only protection that has been asked is from lawsuits from particulars, which is the tool that can be abused.

Are they requesting that government testing of their vaccines is forfeited? - no

Are they requesting that approval process be skippend? - no

Are they requesting that no penalties are contemplated for any problem with the vaccine? - no

Companies are not getting unlimited protection from negative consequences, that is the part where you are wrong.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

Actually, I will be getting a vaccine after all.

As many of you know, many vaccines involve using weakened viruses that are engineered to express a gene from the target virus. Luc Montagnier (2008 Nobel Prize for his discovery of the HIV) recently elaborated (in French) on something he previously said. Turns out the Wuhan lab was trying to create a vaccine against HIV, by engineering a weakened corona virus (that would explain all the asymptomatics) to express HIV genes. He believes before they realized the potential consequences, the vaccine (AKA SARSCoV2) either leaked out or they made a trial run.  

https://www.francesoir.fr/opinions-tribunes/le-defi-de-la-verite-luc-montagnier-prix-nobel-de-medecine

So, I guess I will be getting a vaccine eventually, the vaccine that is usually referred to as SARSCoV2. Hmmm, I wonder if those who recover from Covid19 will be immune to HIV…

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

Are they requesting that government testing of their vaccines is forfeited? - no

Are they requesting that approval process be skippend? - no

Are they requesting that no penalties are contemplated for any problem with the vaccine? - no

Virusrex. YOU ARE ACTUALLY CORRECT! The government testing / vaccine trial data /approval process gives me full confidence to move forward now.

It took a while but like yourself am now ready to be injected. Twice within 1 month (Pfizer / BioNTech). Good on you for your efforts in bringing public awareness to the absolute safety of vaccines.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Actually, I will be getting a vaccine after all.

That is mistaken. It is unfortunate but Montagnier is no longer a respected scientist and has turned into expressing antiscientific theories without any data to sustain them, and sometimes even when there is clear proof he is mistaken. SARS-CoV-2 does not have any kind of HIV sequence, has no evidence whatsoever of artificial manipulation nor there is any chance of giving immunity against HIV.

Good on you for your efforts in bringing public awareness to the absolute safety of vaccines.

Again, that is an imaginary argument, the real one is that vaccines are safer than the infection they protect against, you have not been able to deny this, the same as you were unable to deny the many mechanisms to bring liability to vaccine companies.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Even Putin already called on the public to take the vaccine

Last I read, he wasn't ready to take it himself.

Putin wouldn't because, surprisingly, Sputnik V (whose Phase III trial hasn't finished yet either) has only just started testing for people over the age of 60 (Putin's age group)

That means Sputnik V hasn't yet been tested for the old people who are the most vulnerable to the virus, so Putin is not allowed to take it

3 ( +4 / -1 )

It is unfortunate but Montagnier is no longer a respected scientist 

Very fortunate for science though.

Respect is conditional on the quality of a person's contribution to science. Montagnier's contributions are still respected where appropriate, but no respect is due to bad science, and he's far from the first scientist to be or become a crackpot. Montagnier's been out on the fringes for a good while now. He joins numerous other Nobelists afflicted with the same disease: an attraction to terrible science, quackery, mysticism, or conspiracy theories. Montagnier seems to have ticked all those boxes so far except for mysticism.

I still find (non-Nobelist) Haruko Obakata's case fascinating. Based on her pattern of behaviour, most of which came to light after her great discovery, she's an unoriginal and absolutely typical fraud artist: always buying time, always on the verge of a big revelation, always unfairly victimized. But she also took down Charles Vacanti, who had a long and distinguished career, and was both famous and respected. He staked his reputation, very unwisely it turns out, on Obokata's honesty, and doubled down when more doubts about her became public. None of the things that subsequently happened to Vacanti were officially acknowledged as directly connected to the Obokata case, but he announced a one-year "sabbatical" (which seamlessly became his retirement), his lab was closed by his university, and he seems to have had no presence online representing either his academic institution or himself ever since. That's a pretty huge fall for someone so prominent in his field.

But again, this is ultimately better for the credibility of science. His actions were far from blameless, and some were such a violation of academic rigour that they would get an undergraduate into trouble.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

"Obakata" --- Obokata (yes, it was unintentional)

3 ( +3 / -0 )

If the pharmaceutical companies are so confident their products are safe (and they've been approved by governments), why would they need to apply for liability protection?

The same reason F1 drivers buy insurance for their car. In case something unexpected happens.

You seem to be under this bizarre expectation that a good vaccine will never have any side-effect ever.

There has never been a vaccine, or indeed any medicine, in the history of humanity, that has never had any side effect ever.

But yeah, let your unrealistic expectations be the reason why you don't take the vaccine.

Remember that choice if/when they're putting the tube down your throat so you can breath.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Again, that is an imaginary argument, the real one is that vaccines are safer than the infection they protect against, you have not been able to deny this, the same as you were unable to deny the many mechanisms to bring liability to vaccine companies.

Your argument, exactly like Big Pharma is:

“The science on vaccines is settled.”

“Vaccines are safe and effective.”

The science on vaccines IS NOT settled nor will ever be settled. It will never reach 100% safe with the negative adverse events (deaths too) you so eloquently explain away.

Will post this again as you can see over 30 years of DATA of people reporting adverse reactions after a vaccine...and most people do not know where to go to report adverse events:

Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS Symptoms):

https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/datasets.html

Look VERY CLOSELY at the details and all the cases of negative adverse events from 1990.

You can download 2020 data from this page:

https://vaers.hhs.gov/eSubDownload/index.jsp?fn=2020VAERSSYMPTOMS.csv

They list SYMPTOMS 1,2,3,4,5 PER PERSON

AreflexiaAtaxiaAutism spectrum disorderDysphagia normal?

How about death? Near death experienceFetal DeathAbortion spontaneousAbortion threatened? All normal?

Loads of data that Mainstream media WON'T REPORT ON. Why? A large portion of their advertising dollars are pharma funded. Any content speaking against vaccines and they will pull advertising until they comply. $$$

30 YEARS OF LONG TERM DATA and with your "Big pharma can do no wrong" based "scientific background" you still manage to explain this away as if it could be anything...um....we simply don't know what could have caused those "adverse events" (Negative event reporting increased each year from 1990. Over 29,000 reports in 2020 even with the lockdowns! 2019 file is HUGE with over 60,000 reports!! NOT ALL SEVERE BUT YOU'LL DEFINITELY SEE THAT VACCINES CAN CAUSE ADVERSE NEGATIVE EVENTS). But you see...people who have had negative side effects after a vaccine are now reporting it. Before that no where to report it. Again...30 years for your scientific background and still in denial.

Um...uh...the science is settled. Those deaths could have come from anything. Could be any number of things...just not vaccines cause vaccines are safe.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Will post this again as you can see over 30 years of DATA of people reporting adverse reactions after a vaccine...and most people do not know where to go to report adverse events:

And it will be refuted, again, with the same argument I always use to defeat it, and as usual you will have nothing to say about it.

VAERS includes everything and anything that happens after a vaccine is used. That includes of course things that would have happened anyway even without a vaccine. It does not matter that more and more reports are included, because for anything of importance reports from people not vaccinated are accumulating at the same speed.

The only importance of VAERS is to point out when something is reported more frequently than in the general population, than in people that are not vaccinated. If 20 cases of ataxia are reported on 100,000 people vaccinated, but 30 are reported in 100,000 people not vaccinated what do you think it would mean?

Again, (as in every time you copy-paste this) this means the vaccine is not reponsible for this effect. Hopefully you will understand why reporting only half of the data (as if not vaccinated people would be in perfect health forever) makes no sense.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

VAERS includes everything and anything that happens after a vaccine is used.

There you go again. EXACTLY! AFTER A VACCINE IS USED.

Your family member tells you they just got a vaccine but feeling terrible, feverish, headache, paralysis, fainted, near death, etc. you're just going to tell them that it could be any number of things and would have happened anyway. Just not the vaccine. No need for investigation. No need to report it. Could and would have happened anyway. Big Pharma based science at its best.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Your family member tells you they just got a vaccine but feeling terrible, feverish, headache, paralysis, fainted, near death, etc. you're just going to tell them that it could be any number of things and would have happened anyway. Just not the vaccine. No need for investigation. No need to report it. Could and would have happened anyway. Big Pharma based science at its best.

Again, that is not your argument, your argument is that every single time this happens is because of the vaccine, that is false, a lie. Specially when it also happens without the vaccine. Of course its better to report it, but then if you find out everybody in the building has the same thing, even when only your family member was vaccinated your position would be easy to discard as nonsense and it would be much more productive to search for the real cause instead of obsessively try to blame anything and everything on the vaccines.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

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