Lee says N Korea must pay for torpedo attack on warship

No surprise in that !. . . . LOL . . . The Chinese hardly take USA seriously. . . . The thing to do is to devalue US Currency. . . . . THAT WOULD BE A TURN OF THE SCREW CHINESE UNDERSTAND.

The dollar already float on the global market so devaluation could be automatic. But China needs the US dollar. China also keeps lil Kim around because they find him grotesquely useful, somehow. I doubt they are going to be responsible about NK. Sort of like letting your dog crap all over the neighborhood.

ca1ic0cat

. . . China needs the US dollar. China also keeps lil Kim around because they find him grotesquely useful . . .

Well said, calicocat. THAT IS WHY if US devalues the dollar, it's a squeeze on China right where it hurts. THEN . . . let China decide which is more important to her : grotesquely useful NK or Chinese investments.

How can the Chinese get hurt? Most of the crap China produce goes to budget store in USA... One thing for sure if China hurt, USA will hurt big time! Where can we buy all the cheap product now... Africa? No way.. Whether we like it or not, we need China and vise versa... Not everyone in USA is making a lot money.. Just remember that.. A lot of low income people now and especially at this economy downturn now we experience, probably a lot more people depend on cheap import from China to keep afloat.

I suggest US and China should sit and sort out the differences and find a middle way. No point bashing each other when both are actually connected in many ways...

I say sanction is the best way to go to squeeze NK.. Lets hope this could lead to uprising within their country... Its not worth American life to tackle Asian business... We are far away from home..

How can the Chinese get hurt? Most of the crap China produce goes to budget store in USA... One thing for sure if China hurt, USA will hurt big time! Where can we buy all the cheap product now... Africa?

Eliminate the minimum wage and we wouldn't have that problem. I worked under the table at a slaughterhouse during my highschool years for half what it was back then, I'm sure if we reduced the lifeline cushion people would be much more willing to work for less.

wowowassy: . . .How can the Chinese get hurt?

China has around 895 billions dollars worth of US money in Treasury Bonds . . .( not to mention the companies/ industries it has bought at top dollar ) . . When US devalues it dollar it means that CHINA looses BIG.

China looses big and they can take those losses.. Most Chinese still live under USD5/ a day.. Wont make a dent to those ppl life... Question is, can American take those losses? You see how bad already during housing crisis in USA...

American have 2 wars and alot military station all over the world plus big budget for her military and research etc.... If we loose big, we will loose our prestige in world stage if we cut down these budget...

China on the other hand have no wars and they dont care bout their place in the world.. Their govt only care to impress their people and the Asian region.

In this game, this is a "no" win win situation for both USA and China.. Both will loose a lot money for sure... Only thing is who can take the lost and survive.

Then why did america never working with China 'as a matter of urgent concern' as reciprocal when that matters related with Taiwan? China also has 'a matter of urgent concern when dealing with US spying mission in her coastal area like the EP3,Impeccable,Kitty Hawk...etc incident! If there is a sound and reasonable explanation to China,sure that north korean shall never became a hot issue!

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak said his country will take the case to the U.N. Security Council on Monday. Was that a 'death wish'?

Hillary can move money. She will play on the bureacrats in China's fear and greed of money to get them to listen to her.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton urged China on Monday to work with the United States to coordinate a response to the sinking of a South Korean warship blamed on North Korea.

Is she for real. Why would China help the U.S?

The most important thing to consider is whether or not North Korea had anything to do with the sinking.

The more I look at it, the more I become convinced they had nothing to do with it.

The most important thing to consider is whether or not North Korea had anything to do with the sinking.

The more I look at it, the more I become convinced they had nothing to do with it.

OOPS - - sabiwabi, I meant to respond to your post .....................My question is : WHO do you attribute the sinking of the SK vessel to ? ? ? ?

Sabiwabi: I believe NK did it. They've shown already that they don't care. They can fly missileS over sovereign country, detonate nuclear bombs, with only having sanctions on Mercedes car parts and wiskey.

I want to believe North Korea, I really do. But since lying in the service of their ideology is considered a good thing, ie is part of state policy there, I have a really hard time.

Now if they could tell the truth three times in a row about something the world community can all agree on, then that is where they can start building up a cachet of trust. Until then, forget it. They say they didn't do it, huh? Then they probably did it.

The sinking took place well inside tightly guarded South Korean waters. NK subs are unable to move around undetected by the highly touted anti-submarine units of the American and SK forces. The sinking occurred during a massive joint US/SK military exercise.

I can't see why NK would want to carry out such an attack iin that location at that time, and I seriously doubt they could succeed.

Anyway, if the Japanese truly believe NK managed to pull this off, they should seriously ask themselves whether they should rely on the US for protection.

The sinking occurred near the edge of a particularly dangerous place where all SK naval ships had been advised to do a minimum of 12 knots. She was doing 6 at the time. SK later fired at a disturbance on the surface which was either an escaping semi-submersible or a flock of birds. There are rumors that this homing torpedo may have been dropped onto the ocean floor inside an upright tube, with the motor activated by passing screws. A kind of underwater guided missile. Either way this will have been a huge psychological shock to the confidence of South Korea's navy.

Oh, this should be interesting. Does anyone yet realize that it is China who is pulling the strings of N. Korea (just like the Russians did during the Korean War) wake up people!

My 2cents:

If ROK has only torpedo debris from the sinking, they better research this more. If you believe that a sub got past an anti-sub equipped corvette, Po Hang class w/ PHS-32 sonar, you better go to military forums to see what the experienced guys say - highly improbable, questionable that the sub got a point blank shot on the ship. There isn't conclusive evidence, but the US is highly motivated to take it to the UN.

As far as evidence, it is circumstantial - subs were seen in the area, DPRK does have torpedoes. However, the sunk ship never knew the sub was attacking - that is some feat for a developing country.

sabiwabi: Anyway, if the Japanese truly believe NK managed to pull this off, they should seriously ask themselves whether they should rely on the US for protection -------------------------------------------- Wise words, sabi ! The US has a history of abandoning her friends for political-gain elsewhere.

However, there are wild theories - there are subs in the region that CAN attack undetected, but they are all not of DPRK origin.

From what I read, the ROK would not touch the countries that have subs that can bypass the PHS-32 sonar.

If they are going to take it to the UN, a better argument would be that the DPRK have weapons of mass destruction (WMD).

Reuters now tells us about the torpedo:

Quote: The metallic debris and chemical residue appear to be consistent with a type of torpedo made in Germany, indicating the North may have been trying to disguise its involvement by avoiding arms made by allies China and Russia, Yonhap quoted the official as saying.Unquote

Presto, that German-origin news already came up last week or the week before and seems to be one of at least three sets of recurring but conflicting information. Who puts out these conflicting stories? The end result, whether intended or not, is that no-one knows what to believe any more.

In the meantime NK gets off scot-free and laughing.

What america wants is an infighting between china and north Korea so the Pyonyang regime will chaos over this incident! Typical 'orange revolution' conspiracy!

In the meantime NK gets off scot-free and laughing.

Why are you assuming they are guilty? One moment they show us an apparently NK torpedo with Korean writing and another moment they saying NK "may have been trying to disguise its involvement".

But politicians are so absolutely certain NK did it, just as they were certain Saddam was stockpiling WMDs.

sabi-wabi, they had already warned SK clearly that they would retaliate for last year's naval clash. Motive and statement of intent. If the north gets blamed for this, whose fault is it? The one who cried wolf.

I bet they figured they could hit SK hard AND get away with it, knowing the discord (like here at JT) among their enemies. If this is true, then they will surely be laughing now...

In considering the possibility that it was not the North Koreans, I think we have to ask cui bono (who benefits). The only thing that comes to mind is that Kim Jong Il is ailing and in the process of positioning his heir. If the NK military is convinced the Kim dynasty won't be sustained beyond the next generation, they might pull the plug on Dear Leader prematurely. There are probably three, four, five or more factions manoeuvering for power, and who knows which of them would stoop to such intrigues. So four dozen young S. Korean seamen had to die so that Brutus and Cassius could launch their plots. If war does come, we may never really know why...

I really don't care if N Korea did it or not. They will continue to defy the restrictions that have been placed on them. As stated above, they vowed to take revenge on a squirminsh with the South last year, and the sinking of the S Korean ship happened. It's time for the internation community to send a very clear message to N Korea. It's time for N Korea to put up or shut up!

United states has failed to comply her commitment to protect her ally south Korea and blamed faults on China!

North Korea has done something more dangerous than this before and she is always defiance as usual! North Korea captured the US spy ship in1967, shooting down a US navy spy plabe in 1969 and chopping two US army officers with an axe in 1976. North Korea has nothing to lose until now! Sure you can understand how critical her strategic importance to China!

Fairly good BBC article here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10130909.stm

Beelzebub could well be right. Interfactional fighting? Maybe Kim himself does not even know what one section of his forces may have done. Not like in the good old days when they blew up that SK airliner in a united bloody act.

LIBERTAS: thanks for this interesting piece. There are actually 2 things you forgot to mention. Iran missile technology is mainly from North Korea. An another thing is what to do about Russia supporting Iran? If China goes in war along NK, which I doubt, US will have also be involved, but US is already on 2 other and costly wars (in part on Chinese money). She won't be able to afford a 3rd one. I'm not even talking about Europe. If China goes with NK to annihilate SK without defense, I doubt that China will have any business soon with the western world. Which way, it is going to be a real mess and me think that US economy and rest of the world would be destroyed. Now, how is supporting Israel economically? If you find the answer, you'll understand that your theory is a dead end...

"how is supporting" -> "who is supporting" at the end of the sentence.

Libertas, North Korea reportedly suffered fatalities when the Israeli air force bombed the nuclear reactor the NKs were building for the Syrians. It's ludicrous to imagine these two countries working in collusion.

It's ludicrous to imagine these two countries working in collusion.

You've obviously misunderstood. Nobody's talking collusion. We're talking setting up a patsy.

Now, who is supporting Israel economically? If you find the answer, you'll understand that your theory is a dead end...

We're not talking logic here. We're talking a version of the Samson Option, bait and switch, duplicity and distraction. We're also talking blackmail of the US by Bibi et al. Trust me, it all makes sense when you follow the money. Kim Jong Il is a convenient patsy, pure and simple. In fact I would be a bit surprised if he ascends to the heavens on the same date as his father did in June 1994, adding glory to the patsy status, leaving the dear people of the DPRK to swoon in mourning and be left to the infidels south of the DMZ....or some such fantasy.

Guys, Reuters and The Guardian have these reports independently. I'm inventing nothing, just trying to connect the dots to make some sense out of this weird and sorry saga. I'm prepared to listen to reasoned, thought out interpretations of this news about the sunken boat. Go, by all means, to the sources and come back with your own reasoned conclusions. If you can convince me otherwise, I'm certainly prepared to be swayed by reason. Right now I'm of the opinion, based on what I think I see to be the facts of the case, that the Israelis are, again, up to no good for their own gain. It isn't the first time, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

Libertas, excellent points. I couldn't agree more

LIBERTAS: I'm not sure to understand your point. I still fail to understand how this could be positive for Israel. Please provide your sources of information even if it's from NK or Iran. I'm still open.

I can't picture lil Kim as a patsy of Israel. Lap dog of China, yeah. Lunatic with nukes, yep. But I can't see Israel having anything to do with this unless they are interested in cutting off nuclear proliferation at the source.

Maybe I've just answered my own question? But even so, it's a very risky ploy. The idea that NK is just getting even for the last skirmish is simpler.

Let's just hope nothing escalates.

Sanctions don't work for all dictators. See ww2 if you don't beleive me. His people can't rebel against him, they can only suffer from sanctions which will bread more hatred and feed the fuel for Kim. Action needs to be taken.

I'm actually a little surprised Lee has the stones to suspend trade, although it's a step shy of doing anything unexpected. Must be an election coming up... haha.

Seriously, though, they need more evidence before they can seriously go beyond the suspension of trade. They found evidence of a torpedo, okay, but it could have been from anyone interested in provoking a war, not limited to NK. I'm not suggesting anything as wacky as LIBERTAS is, but it's not clear who did it.

Ya know it's funny...I first read sabi's comments and wondered why he hadn't found a way to blame the Jews yet. Then Libertas comes strolling in...heh.

This is probably my favorite part:

Potentially, millions could die, and their bankers would get filthy rich from the profits and spoils of that war.

Ah, yes. World War III. Millions dying. The world economy essentially collapsing. All so the Jew bankers can make more money. But don't worry, guys, Libertas says he open to reasonable alternatives. Like maybe it was the Jew politicians. Or the Jew military. Or maybe AIPAC.

LIBERTAS: "The metallic debris and chemical residue appear to be consistent with a type of torpedo made in Germany" http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6460FC20100507

Residue. But the parts found still match a North Korea design.

As for the other conspiracy theorists....I do get a kick out of it. They give people enough credit to secretly plan and carry out these massive operations without anyone finding out about it beforehand, fool independent investigators from several nations (or secretly include them), manufacture evidence, etc.

Yet in the end there's always that one fatal flaw that's so easy to see that some dude on his computer can blow the lid off of their secret plan that must have taken months and millions of dollars to create in the first place. I always picture the evil masterminds reading the internet and slapping their foreheads while shouting, "Crap, why didn't we think of that!"

Hatoyama fired the torpdeo so that the DPJ was not torpedoed by the excuse to leave US troops where they are in Futenma. Brilliant move from Hatoyama. Kill some South Koreans, blame the North, and have a scapegoat not to move US marines from their current position through media fear mongering. Hato may even come out of it looking less pigeon pink.

Why does there have to be a conspiracy? The two koreas have been in a state of war since June 1950?

Why does there have to be a conspiracy? The two koreas have been in a state of war since June 1950?

Because this is right up passive/aggressive Japans alley.

Wow, they found some large chunks! http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2517243/posts

Wow, they found some large chunks! http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2517243/posts

Left over from the 50s and polished up a bit.

apecNetworks at 03:45 PM JST - 24th May "As far as evidence, it is circumstantial - subs were seen in the area, DPRK does have torpedoes. However, the sunk ship never knew the sub was attacking - that is some feat for a developing country." apecNetworks at 03:46 PM JST - 24th May "However, there are wild theories - there are subs in the region that CAN attack undetected, but they are all not of DPRK origin." apecNetworks at 03:57 PM JST - 24th May "From what I read, the ROK would not touch the countries that have subs that can bypass the PHS-32 sonar." apecNetworks at 04:00 PM JST - 24th May "If they are going to take it to the UN, a better argument would be that the DPRK have weapons of mass destruction (WMD)."

Could you please just get to the point and state WHAT COUNTRY HAS SUCH SUBS??? And follow that up witrh what that country would have to gain by creating a crisis on the Korean Penninsula of this magnitude at this time. Thank you.

I don't know why people are still going on questioning the evidence. The UN has already commened a multinational investigation into whether NKorea has broken the truce agreements of the Korean War. This has the potential to be very serious for NKorea.

Wait a minute, I'm confused. Since the obvious answer - that crazy Kim and the NKs were responsible - is apparently just too obvious, who exactly was responsible again? The CIA? Hatoyama? Mossad/Elders of Zion? Dick Cheney? The Illuminati? The Bilderberg Group? ET?

Just too many conspiracies to shake a stick at :( I need "facts"!

Can some anti-Semites, America-haters, Japan-bashers, and/or plain-old-crazies, please help me out a little?

The U.S. attempt to persuade China to control North Korea behavior has nothing to show for it. A more serious and united U.S., South Korea and Japan response might cause China to behave more like a 21st century responsible power. No one can predict how North Korea would respond, but that is also true now. The proper response by U.S., South Korea and Japan is to give up the illusions of engagement, and methodically and coolly treat the North Korea as the terrorist state it is.

To OssanAmerica:

This is pretty basic stuff - ROK Po Hang class ship went down, no early warning and probably little or no transmission records. Speed of sinking connotes point blank firing, no warning again. No prior sonar detection. ROK High Command stunned, no clear explanation for months, no knowledge or evidence of the DPRK capable of pulling this stunt. The delayed verdict points to complete surprise. The previous engagements were predictable and understandable. I am pointing out that this is an unusual incident, and finding torpedo debris is not "conclusive" evidence. Sec. Clinton, being an established corporate attorney, knows the evidence is circumstantial. I would imagine the US is highly motivated to get DPRK at this point, so any evidence is acceptable.

The answers you seek is somewhat available on military forums (some are personally experienced on the sonar), and speculation is rife - no obvious conclusion.

The US must present clear and conclusive evidence that the DPRK has a sub capable of bypassing PHS-32 sonar technically, not the lucky shot from several thousand yards. I am getting the impression that if it was a torpedo, it was shot at point blank range - this still has to be confirmed.

I haven’t enjoyed a conspiracy feeding frenzy like this for a long time, I think the only thing missing so far (so far) has been creatures from another planet, but there is still time. How anybody managed to get their logic twisted enough to find a place for Israel in all this is fantastic, what were they disguised as this time, Papal cardinals? Well we know the Vatican has a secret fleet of submarines so it is logical (to web surfers) isn’t it? One this that does seem to have been forgotten about by most posters is the SK people. They are the ones that will really suffer and their suffering is the real reason China isn’t going to cosy up to the US against NK. The one thing China can see on the cards is what will happen if NK goes to war or if their people start to really starve, there will be tens of thousands of refugees crossing into China and China has neither the means nor the interest in trying to deal with that. If anything that is a card SK and the US could play against China, push the issue to the very brink and force China to act against NK before gets out of hand. Given the history of China and NK it would be incredibly naïve to imagine that China hasn’t already got its friends in the NK military, rearranging who pulls the strings in NK really wouldn’t be that difficult. Added to which after 60 years of indoctrination China is the only country who could successfully occupy NK. So, maybe we are left with a possible conspiracy after all, maybe China sank the SK ship so as to open the door to deactivating NK and getting world credit for doing so. Granted I don’t believe this but it has to admitted that it is more likely than Israeli involvement.

I hope no one here thinks NK is 'nuclear armed,' just because the MSM told them.

I don't know of an Israeli connection to this, but there are Israeli diesel subs in Vietnam as we speak. Those subs are state of the art.

One of the Japanese weeklies came up with a plausible explanation for the 'point blank' range from which the torpedo was supposedly launched: NK allegedly possesses in its arsenal of weapons a 'manned torpedo' that can be steered by a human pilot. The Japanese Imperial Navy operated similar torpedos, called Kaiten, in the Pacific War. They are the nautical equivalent of Kamikaze planes. How the NKs would recruit men to steer such weapons is another matter, however.

"must pay".... well fat chance for that! In the event, after some empty huffing and puffing, the West will continue to subsidize the NK regime.

Beelzebub at 08:48 AM JST - 25th May They are the nautical equivalent of Kamikaze planes. How the NKs would >recruit men to steer such weapons is another matter, however.

Seems to me that would be the easiest part. North Korea today is just like WWII era Japan. Probably one reason it bothers the Japanese so much.

To apecnetworks;

Thanks for your explanation, which frankly sounds pretty speculative to me. Your points on the Cheonan itself could easily bge dismissed as human error. After all we know she was doing 6k instead of the 12k as ordered. If you want to cast doubt on SKorea and the US posution fine. But please answer my question which is specifically: WHAT COUNTRY HAS SUCH SUBS??? What that country would have to gain by creating a crisis on the Korean Penninsula of this magnitude at this time?

As grafton mentioned this certainly could be a possibility. The Chinese military is seeking to project it's naval power well beyond the Chinese coast, from the oil ports of the Middle East to the shipping lanes of the Pacific. This strategy is a sharp break from the traditional, narrower doctrine of preparing for war over the self-governing island of Taiwan or defending the Chinese coast. This is the first time the Chinese have labeled the South China Sea a core interest, on par with Taiwan and Tibet. China is also developing a sophisticated submarine fleet that could try to prevent foreign naval vessels from entering its strategic waters if a conflict erupted in the region.

It is not to much of a stretch to believe China, however indirectly may have been involved. Last year there was an incident where a US Warship didn't detect a Chinese/Russian sub on their radar. This made major headlines and was a huge embarrassment. So to say "What country has such subs" answers that question. The Chinese may have used this incident as experiment to see how successful such an operation would be. China may have seen this as a means of getting North Korea to do it's biding without getting it's hands dirty. If this would have happened in Japanese waters the same would have been said there as well. Although who would have believed it as the blame would have shifted onto the US which is exactly what China would have intended.

The problem is, it is not in the PRC's interest to have this happen at this time - to an attorney, you need motive and opportunity.

To OssanAmerica:

"If you want to cast doubt on SKorea and the US posution fine."

I don't know what you are saying. The Obama Administration is clearly following the Bush Administration's "Axis of Evil" paradiym. The US used false intelligence at the UN prior to Iraq. DPRK is one of the members of the "Axis of Evil". The US can be suspect, but not guilty. There is doubt on ALL participants is what I am alluding to. Nationalism will not allow that option.

Why difference does it make that Israeli subs were a quarter of a globe away from North Korea? It's not even relevant when you have parts from a North Korean torpedo, and the fact that North Korea has made attacks like this all the time and denied it first before admitting to it? Kidnappings, even previous sub attacks - they denied it before later admitting to it after overwhelming evidence. This is simply history repeating itself.

apecNetworks at 09:02 AM JST - 27th May To OssanAmerica: "If you want to cast doubt on SKorea and the US posution fine." I don't know what you are saying.

OK try this: WHAT COUNTRY HAS SUCH SUBS??? What that country would have to gain by creating a crisis on the Korean Penninsula of this magnitude at this time?

Ridiculous act. this incident is not clear yet, don't let n.korea to join the investigation will never convince people to believe that was not fabricated. Even CHINA n RUSSIA are not convinced yet! How can u pass the UN resolution.

Here's a link w/ very detailed photos of the sinking:

http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk03100&num=6394