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Vatican offers 3 reasons why it is not liable for abuse

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Wow, the Vatican is really on the back foot here. Ironically, every excuse the Vatican gives is another nail in the Catholic church's coffin. A good housecleaning is in order here,and the Vatican must be fully aware that if thd Pope is toppled, the church may follow.

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Somebody has to hold these pedophiles accountable. I demand acess to the church's vaults!

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This is big and getting bigger. Also it is self-inflicted, the Catholic church has refused to modernize and get rid of the celibacy requirement, and now they are paying the price. I'm not saying celibacy leads directly to pedophilia, but it seems obvious that it is part of the problem. Somebody who chooses and wants to be celibate when they enter the priesthood is maybe not very mature or healthy, sexually speaking, in the first place.

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As a practicing Catholic I just think that it very sad that this whole sordid affair has become a bunch of class-action law suits, and negative stories everyday in the press. The Vatican has been terribly wrong in its handling of this problem since at least the 1960's. As E.J. Dione stated in his recent column, Pope Benedict needs to get back on the right side of this issue -- and that's not with the lawyers and spin-doctors -- and really show he gets it, and wants to transform the church.

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If they're going to use legal arguments to get out of it, they should just face the music and cooperate. Innocence is not the same as immunity from suit.

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I believe the celibacy requirement was a result of the Apostle Paul's exhortation for male believers to be 'pure' and basically not distracted by the fairer sex.

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I'm so sick of hearing media outlets using celibacy, the lack of marriage, traditional church practices, etc. being used to excuse the raping of minors. Any country with an iota of morality and/or dignity would shut this organization down, remove their tax-exempt status and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law until every single incident was investigated and the perpetrators jailed----including Pope Benedict himself.

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For an organized religion that places emphasis on telling the truth, these guys are definitely talking out their collective axse. Indeed, wouldn't it be better to come clean about this whole sordid issue, jailing the people responsible for any crimes?

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timorborder -- agree completely. If you have the chance, you should read two very thoughtful articles about/by Sinead O'Connor (That's right, Sinead O'Connor) on this very subject. The headline of one is that Pope Benedict should be indicted.

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Sorry, should have added that the articles are in today's Daily Yomiuri.

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Pope Benedict needs to get back on the right side of this issue -- and that's not with the lawyers and spin-doctors -- and really show he gets it, and wants to transform the church.

Not going to happen, the Church is loyal to its own to a fault. It will never out its members and will never testify against them for the same reason a Priest would never go public with info heard in a confessional, its just not what they do. When the Church does change the process takes generations, its a slow and ponderous thing except when it does damage control, a skill it's honed over the centuries. But for all its issues it's still my church and I'll have no other.

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samwatters

I'm so sick of hearing media outlets using celibacy...

So what is the reason for these rapes of children, etc if it's not the celibacy and other restrictions by the church? < :-)

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TheQuestion -- can't agree. The Church forcing criminals who knowingly broke both civil, criminal and canon law, to resign, is not in any way comparable to a priest keeping secret what is said in confession. It's my church too, but I cannot rationalize how folks like myself, who are divorced, are not supposed to receive communion, but, priests who molested kids, and the ones who covered it up, are free to continue to consecrate mass. Please explain that logic?

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Dear adaydream, good question! PLease understand that my rather poisonous answer is not directed specifically at you but at those who wish to serve as apologist. Got your antivenom ready? Here's my answer: who cares? What "reasons" would possibly justify or explain rape of minors? Let's not forget that celebacy and other practices are based on superstition.

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Somebody has to hold these pedophiles accountable.

Yes!

“There is no other defendant. There’s no bishop, no priest.”

Throw the case out of court. This is a left-wing sham.

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Thanks. < :-)

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@adaydream same here!

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What I see from the Catholic Church is a great reason never to walk into a church, any church, ever again. This is very representative of large churches. The hiding of secrets, protection of bad people... You know the more I think about it, this is more like mobster actions.

Mafia with the blessings of the Lord? < :-)

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samwatters, if we do not bother to explain why these things happen we are hopeless to prevent it. It is well known that many people who begin to view minors sexually do so out of desperation. They are none as situational. Its no different than a starving man resorting to eating grass. A lot of these cases never would have happened if these men had not been trying in vain to follow that stupid celibacy policy.

SushiSake3 said: I believe the celibacy requirement was a result of the Apostle Paul's exhortation for male believers to be 'pure' and basically not distracted by the fairer sex.

My method of making sure I am not distracted by hunger is to eat something. But no surprise that religious types try to supplant things in the physical world with faith alone. What a bunch of morons!

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I agree with you 99%; if "Lord" is written in satire than I'll give you that last 1 point! But good point about the Mafia; at least mobsters are held accountable on ocassion.

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So is the celebacy thing in religions have something to do with attaining some kind of special spiritual awareness or what? So stupid, if so. Sex is as natural and necessary as eating and drinking. People have come up with the oddest of ideas.

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I'm also becoming very disillusioned with religion after being Christian most of my adult life, but I think it is critical for those who believe in God to keep in mind that He did not do these things.

People - who have become corrupted - did.

Turning away from religion is turning yourself away from God, a god who is NOT the Pope or any of the Catholic s*um who committed these crimes, which may not be in your best interests.

It is still possible to continue in your faith without being affected or having contact with religios leaders who have become corrupted.

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At the same time though, the hurdles remain enormously high to force a foreign government to turn over confidential documents, let alone to subject a head of state to questioning by U.S. lawyers, experts say.

Okay then, no worries. Just freeze their assets until they come around. If anything is going to put the fear of god into them, it will be this.

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The church has been around for 2000 years. They will just wait a few centuries for it all blow over. You can tell by their reaction that that is what they are planning to do.

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SushiSake3 said: I'm also becoming very disillusioned with religion after being Christian most of my adult life,

I think by your post we should say you are becoming disillusioned with the church, not religion. And fair enough that you are disillusioned with the church, especially its leaders. Those people seem to claim a special connection with God as if they are prophets. They are not. In fact I find centralized churches to be a blasphemy. How can anyone believe that the people behind the covering up of sex abuse have a special connection with God?

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Let me add, I'm Catholic too. But if anyone feels disillusioned by all this, it's because you're losing faith in organized religion. If you believe in God, you can still continue to believe regardless of the organization you belong too. That's why there are denominations.

In a way, what they are doing may be because they think they should police their own ranks. But then, that really won't sit well with the secular people. That's why I said if they will just use (secular) legal arguments, they better face the music. It's about playing fair.

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The Vatican will be known for decades as the worlds largest paedophile ring, with disgusting, shameless protection from the highest levels.

Their assets shoulds be seized and the wealth distributed world-wide.

And they should turn the Vatican into a luxury hotel casino complex.

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I'll bet the church is one of the safest places for children now. There is zero tolerance for this activity. As opposed to looking up registered sex offenders in your area in the States. My area looks like a christmas tree. Too many too count out on the streets. Some of those crimes committed should have put those people off the streets for good. Why are they allowed to strike again? It is wrong in the church and outside of it. The church in the States at least has cleaned up its act. How about secular society?

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I'm so sick of hearing media outlets using celibacy...

So what is the reason for these rapes of children, etc if it's not the celibacy and other restrictions by the church?

It's not that celebacy causes the buggery. The celebacy requirement (SS3 is right about it being based on Paul's exhortation to dedicate yourself to the church and not be distracted by family) makes a lot of people decide to not be priests because they can't follow their normal drives to have sex and procreate. My brother-in-law was a priest. Then he got married and became an Episcopal.

What the celebacy requrement does is concentrate men who have deviant sexual urges. It's rather ironic that these guys stand for things that the catholics consider mortal sins. Like the priest who was also an open member of the "man boy love association." Yeah, how's that working for you?

So the vatican has three reasons why it's not liable for abuse? Then, to me, those are three reasons why I'll never set foot in a catholic church again. I'd rather burn in hell than see my kids abused.

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"It's not that celebacy causes the buggery"

I'm not sure many people will agree with that, in fact I'm sure it flies in the face of scientific fact.

It's bad enough people can be so delusional to believe in religious fantasy scripts - but making a male human being with functioning hormones refuse his natural desires is bound to end up him doing something stupid.

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OneForAll

I'll bet the church is one of the safest places for children now.

That's a pretty questionable statement. I think until the church recognizes that priests are men. That men need that natural outlet. And until they recognize that and allow priests to act on them openly, with either a woman or an adult man, this isn't going to change. < :-)

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I'll bet the church is one of the safest places for children now. There is zero tolerance for this activity. As opposed to looking up registered sex offenders in your area in the States. My area looks like a christmas tree.

Yeah, mine too. But unfortunately your statement is far from true. If I look on the map of sex offenders (which we can do in our state) I'm surrounded. But ironically the danger came more directly from the Catholic Church. My son attended Catholic school, and we were informed that the Priest was accused of child molestation and would have a 'temporary leave of absence'. Turns out there were nude pictures of this a-hole on the Internet - and even presented with that smoking gun a good many of the faithful in this diocese didn't want to believe he was guilty. The alleged molestation was from instances (several people had come forward) some fifteen years ago or so (not recent when my son was there) and fell outside the statutory limit or some nonsense, so the church farmed him off somewhere else and that was the end of it.

We had several meetings at the school with folks higher up in the local diocese. I've never seen a bigger bunch of hypocrites falling all over themselves to cover it all up and make it go away as quickly as possible. It was unclear whether any of the current students had been molested by him, and my wife - a mental health counselor - had offered to have someone with appropriate experience and training come in and speak with the students - just to be sure. They wanted nothing to do with it. There is no desire to fix anything within the catholic church, but rather sweep it away as quickly as possible so not usurp their power or ability to make money. I'm not Catholic - my wife is - but I lost any respect I may have had.

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The Vatican is complicit in covering up the cases of abuse and therefore very much liable.

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samwatters, if we do not bother to explain why these things happen we are hopeless to prevent it. It is well known that many people who begin to view minors sexually do so out of desperation. They are none as situational. Its no different than a starving man resorting to eating grass. A lot of these cases never would have happened if these men had not been trying in vain to follow that stupid celibacy policy.

HeyLars: With all due respect you're wrong. There are other ways to fill the craving with sex than raping minors. Raping minors isn't one of "these things that happen," it is cruel and depraved, regardless of how "desparate" someone may be.

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The problem stems from the Catholics strange insistence that these men of "god" must surpress their totally natural horniness in attempts at remaining celebate. Remaining in Denial about their religious texts is one thing, remaining in Denial about what every red-blooded male has between his legs is another. No wonder these blokes end up wierdo's and it's the kids around them that suffer.

If God existed, I'd like to think he'd have the benevolence to let his minions get down from time to time. Catholisism, like Islam needs to re-write the texts. These backwards religions have no place in the future unless they do.

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The problem stems from the Catholics strange insistence that these men of "god" must surpress their totally natural horniness in attempts at remaining celebate...No wonder these blokes end up wierdo's and it's the kids around them that suffer.

Madverts, I appreciate your willingness to debate this topic but the above statement summarizes why society has allowed this problem to reach it current proportions. There is absolutely nothing normal about wanting to rape people, let alone minors. People who rape minors do so because they want to. You even pointed out that with the invention of the internet, priests probably don't need to visit an adult bookstore, which should make it easier to obtain sexual material that would relieve their tension. Speaking of the 'Net, though, I wonder how many priests have kiddie porn in their computers. But I digress; the point I want to make is that celebacy does not cause a person to become a sexual deviant.

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"But I digress; the point I want to make is that celebacy does not cause a person to become a sexual deviant."

And I whole-heartedly disagree, Sam.

Frankly I'd wager a guess at supressing sexual urges - and I'm talking normal man/woman urges here, no medical instruments or latex, or blow-up mutton - goes a long way to make people wanting to rape or do things out of the sphere of what most of us woul characterize as normal behaviour. Off topic as it may be, I believe in Germany or in Holland where prostitution and brothels are legal sexual crimes are much lower.

All armchair physcology I'll admit, but that's my take on the paedophile priest siutuation.

Heh, and as most women rightly tell you - men have two brains. Celibacy throttling Brain No.2 clearly in my opinion brings out the demons.

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This celebacy thing is a bunch of crap. We have sex organs for a reason. Sex is not a sin, nor will abstaining from it bring you closer to a higher power.

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Frankly I'd wager a guess at supressing sexual urges - and I'm talking normal man/woman urges here, no medical instruments or latex, or blow-up mutton - goes a long way to make people wanting to rape or do things out of the sphere of what most of us woul characterize as normal behaviour

Thanks again, Madverts, for replying. Honest debate and discourse on this topic is long overdue. I want to comment on the above statement because many people have the same misconception; even if you gave one of these sexual deviants (who in these cases are priest) a different woman every day, they would still crave a relationship with a minor. Lack of sex or supression of sexual desire is not connected to aggressive/deviant sexual behavior. Thanks again (sincerely) for the discussion.

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The Church forcing criminals who knowingly broke both civil, criminal and canon law, to resign, is not in any way comparable to a priest keeping secret what is said in confession.

Like I said, damage control. You sometimes hear about resignations but rarely does a priest testify in court against one of his fellows.

It's my church too, but I cannot rationalize how folks like myself, who are divorced, are not supposed to receive communion, but, priests who molested kids, and the ones who covered it up, are free to continue to consecrate mass. Please explain that logic?

This is yet another very old very dated issue the Church has, but to answer your question; if you received a decree of nullity from the Church you should be entitled to communion because it was found that you, your spouse, or both of you were not fully committed to the marriage making it void. Sometimes the decree comes quickly but sometimes it can take forever, my aunt had her first marriage annulled in a week but it took months for a friend of mine to get his.

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Another thing this shows is that there must be a lot of athiest priests. Anyone who really believed in spending an eternity in hell would never do anything like this. Who should believe this most deeply but priests.

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Vatican offers 3 reasons why it is not liable for abuse

They couldn't come up with a top 10 list?

I liked this, from The Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/pope-vows-to-get-church-pedophilia-down-to-accepta,17201/

Taka

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Most informative article. I hope i got more more information in this article.And this article help many people. Thanks for sharing.

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