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Violence in east Jerusalem clouds peace efforts

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Of course we are not going to find out why that man was shot. Only that he was shot by the Israelis and this really pissed off the peaceful Palestinians.

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“Israel wants this process to move on.

You bet they do! Every time the process moves on Israel gets more land! They pray the process never ends in a successful peace!

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Israel wants this process to move on. We believe historical reconciliation is possible.

Hypocrite! If Israel truly wanted that, they would have long ago moved back to the pre-1967 border.

The so-called "Jewish settlements" are on Palestinian land, the entire world recognizes that. Not only should they freeze settlement construction, they should get out of all present "settlements", that land does not belong to them.

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Palestinians set up an ambush for a guard as he goes about his daily business, supporting his family, things go south, a man is killed, and now they want to play the victim too??? Puhleeeeese... You should have seen the size of the stones they were throwing at buses. Some of them were bigger than a man's head!

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When Arab "militants" shoot a Jewish family in Hebron, what do to Jews do? Mourn quietly. When Arabs in East Jerusalem throw stones at a Jewish security guard, he shoots back to defend himself and kills an Arab, what do we get? Instant riots. What hypocrites.

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WilliB: Usually Israel retaliates for shooting of a Jewish family by rocketing West Bank Palestinian camps and sending tanks into the Gaza. Anyway, you can't force peace upon people who don't want it. Clinton and Obama calling this the "last chance" for peace was just dumb, so now the people who oppose any settlement of the issue think all they have to do is thwart this effort. Sacrificing Israeli and Palestinian lives for a political ploy in an election year.

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The so-called "Jewish settlements" are on Palestinian land, the entire world recognizes that. Not only should they freeze settlement construction, they should get out of all present "settlements", that land does not belong to them.

Palestine does not exist. The land belongs to Israel. If they choose to grant that land to a future state, yet to be born, that is entirely at their discretion. No one is going to be able to force them to grant independence to the West Bank or Gaza.

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Molenir, that is indeed the zionist view you are expressing, but it is not based on reality or international law. According to the International Court of Justice, countless UN resolutions (including UNSC ones), and most of the civilized world, the so-called "disputed territories" or "Jewish settlements" are on Occupied Palestinian Territories; they belong to the Palestinian people.

BTW Palestine does exist, the world recognizes it, and soon this illegal occupation will end.

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techall:

" Usually Israel retaliates for shooting of a Jewish family by rocketing West Bank Palestinian camps and sending tanks into the Gaza. "

Nope, they don´t. Nice slogan, but simply not true.

" Anyway, you can't force peace upon people who don't want it. "

Israel is quite willing to live in peace, but there is no such will on the Arab side. The radical factions like Hamas are calling outright for the destruction of Israel, and the so-called moderates like the PA ask Israel to make endless concession without guaranteeing anything in return. Alas, it takes 2 sides to make peace, not one.

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Palestine declared independence in 1988. The people of Palestine are now vassals to their overlord Israel. And you wonder why they are upset, and don't just accept their vassaldom?

I'm sorry, but this is just nonsense. Palestine declared independence? From who ? From Jordan?

The Egyptian-born Arafat headed the political organization that 'declared' independence, and they did so not in Palestine but in Algiers.

What's with the talk of talk of master and slave, vassal and loyalist? Mistwizard is the master of strained and bizarre analogies.

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What's with the talk of talk of master and slave, vassal and loyalist?

Well, what do you call a people being controlled by others when they don't want it? Are Palestinians Palestinian, or are they Israeli? If they are Palestinians, why would you support control of them by Israel? Don't a separate people have a right to self-government?

I'm sorry, but this is just nonsense. Palestine declared independence? From who ? From Jordan?

From everyone. A declaration of independence is how a country is formed. A country does not just spring into existence on its own you know. Israel also declared independence in 1948. Its a fairly well known process. Look it up.

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MistWizard:

" Well, what do you call a people being controlled by others when they don't want it? Are Palestinians Palestinian, or are they Israeli? "

Israeli Arabs have Israeli passports, so of course they are Israeli. What else should they be? And by the way, "Palestine" is a geographic area, inhabited by different ethnic groups, Jews being the original ones.

Methinks you are mixing up terminology in a big way.

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Israeli Arabs have Israeli passports, so of course they are Israeli. What else should they be? And by the way, "Palestine" is a geographic area, inhabited by different ethnic groups, Jews being the original ones.

The area was controlled by Jews a very very very long time ago, and for a very short time. That does not give the entire Jewish sect the right to barge in today and kick out entire populations who have lived there for many generations.

And speaking of Israeli Arabs, I hope you realize that even if they have an Israeli passport, they do not have the same rights as Israeli Jews. Any Jew from anywhere on Earth can move to Israel tomorrow and have full rights.

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Molenir, that is indeed the zionist view you are expressing, but it is not based on reality or international law. According to the International Court of Justice, countless UN resolutions (including UNSC ones), and most of the civilized world, the so-called "disputed territories" or "Jewish settlements" are on Occupied Palestinian Territories; they belong to the Palestinian people.

Sorry, but every single patch of land on this earth is claimed by, and belongs to some country. Thats reality. The only exception is Antarctica which is under a different standard. Palestine, is controlled and owned by Israel. Formerly, parts of it were controlled and owned by Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. With the exception of the Golan Heights, which is in dispute with Syria, both Jordan and Egypt have relinquished their claim to the area. Meaning, the only country with claim on the land, is Israel. Thats simple reality. Palestine does not exist as a country, merely as a region, which the country of Israel is part of. The Palestinian people, which we distinguish from Israelis, and those decendents, who live in other areas such as Jordan, and are bitterly discriminated against there, would like to have the land, but if they want their own country, they need to make a deal with the country which it currently belongs. That country is Israel. Without that as a starting point, nothing else matters. If they want to take their territory, and form their own country, they must make a deal with Israel, the country to which it currently belongs.

The area was controlled by Jews a very very very long time ago, and for a very short time. That does not give the entire Jewish sect the right to barge in today and kick out entire populations who have lived there for many generations.

Ah, interesting how it was just a short time they controlled it. Yet they lived there, and continued to live there ever since they threw the Caananites out. The "Palestinians" didn't move into the neighborhood until much later. Of course they've lived there now for about 1500 years or so. And a lot of Jews just moved back within the last 100 years. Still, this is the root of the problem. Trying to claim that it does not, and should not belong to the Jews, is nonsense. They have as much right to the land, and claim on it, as anyone. In fact more. Historicity aside though, the reality is, that the land belongs to Israel. They will decide what to do with it. Whether to continue the land for peace option that thus far seems to be failing, or crackdown on the Pals again.

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Molenir,

We're dealing with Occupied Palestinian Territories, land that UNSC resolutions, countless UN general assembly resolutions, the International Court of Justice, and the entire international community (except Israel, US, and few tiny Pacific Islands) states clearly that it belongs to the Palestinians. Israelis can stay in Israel, but they have no business, or any legal right, to build anything in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, which includes Gaza, West Bank, and East Jerusalem.

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Israelis can stay in Israel, but they have no business, or any legal right, to build anything in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, which includes Gaza, West Bank, and East Jerusalem.

Oh, come on Sabi, just come out and say it. All of Palestine, including the entirety of Israel should belong to the Palestinians. And any Jews that live there should disappear, either through murder, or being shipped to whatever country is stupid enough to accept them. Or simply pushed into the sea. That is, essentially the point you prefer to make.

Israel claims all of Jerusalem. Thats not on the table. It also claims large chunks of West Bank, those are potentially negotiable. The rest, they would be happy to part with if it would mean peace. The Palestinian insistence on getting everything they want, will not happen. This insistence on claiming whatever they desire to have as part of their yet to be formed country, assuming Israel agrees to its formation, is childish and naive. It merely prolongs the time until a Palestinian state can actually exist.

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Molenir said: Sorry, but every single patch of land on this earth is claimed by, and belongs to some country.

And, of course, claims of land come before the people who live on it. Right?

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You know, I've never been able to figure this whole thing out. I mean, I get the whole thing, that Israel was given/took land owned by Palestinians and that has caused endless strife in a never ending hatred/feud between Arab and Jew (over-simplified a bit, but basically the gist). But if you look at the region and the population one can't help but wonder why one area of crappy desert rock and scrub is any better than the next. There is more than enough land for Palestinian and Jew to live on and never get in each others way. But instead they must squabble and fight over it and make everyone else's life miserable.

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There is more than enough land for Palestinian and Jew to live on and never get in each others way.

Yeah, that is how it was in Palestine for a very long time; until the early 1900's, Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived together in relative peace.

The conflict today is rather simple, in 1967 Israel stole Palestinian land. The UNSC immediately declared that it is inadmissible to take land by force and that it had to leave from the land that it took. Ever since, the UNSC, UN general assembly, the International Court of Justice, ... have stated clearly that Israel must leave the Occupied Palestinian Territories, but Israel has ALWAYS ignored ALL such resolutions and international law, they are above the law.

No conflict is as simple and straight forward.

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