The requested article has expired, and is no longer available. Any related articles, and user comments are shown below.
© 2014 AFPViolence soars in Gaza as world pleads for truce
GAZA CITY©2023 GPlusMedia Inc.
Articles, Offers & Useful Resources
A mix of what's trending on our other sites
161 Comments
Login to comment
Stuart hayward
How many years will each side repeated these same actions and reactions, while both justify that it's necessary? The fact is, there will NEVER be a military solution to their challenges. Why does the US financially support Israel with eight million a day and give Palestine millions a year? I guess the US actually support this behavior and are enabling this to continue. I'm sure the military industrial complex is laughing all the way to the bank, while average citizens loose! Neither country should receive a dime, (other than humanitarian aid) until they both stop this endless cycle of violence.
SuperLib
Everyone knows that this is what happens when Hamas starts firing rockets. Even Hamas knows. Were they expecting a different result? ...or this exact result?
Stuart hayward
SuperLib: While I will never understand why Palestine thinks fires rockets at Israel will accomplish anything positive for it people, even when they have stopped for long periods, Israel has continued their aggression in soo many ways! I could give you a list of examples but it would be quite a long one!
SuperLib
It's not about positive or negative. The only thing Hamas knows is violence. That's what they train their children for.
Stuart hayward
SuperLib: After my first of three month long trips to Israel, I was really surprised to find out that most Israelis are required to take military training. Now ALL Israeli citizens are required to receive military training, even the relaxed surfers I knew have changed in a less tolerant more aggressive manner towards after this training. Sadly both sides teach violence and intolerance.
Tamarama
Not only financially, but politically the US protects Israel from facing sanction via the UN. It vetoes almost all resolutions against Israel, and is, at times, the only country to vote with Israel. Yes, the US is complicit in this. Absolutely.
Is Hamas firing rockets the reason for this conflict? Do the Israeli settlements on Palestinian land have anything to do with it? Or the Iron Curtin blockade on Gaza and Palestine? Or the laws that discriminate specifically against non-Jews only in Israel? Or the refusal to negotiate meaningfully on a Palestinian State?
Or just the home made rockets?
Mike O'Brien
Yeah, because it is not like holding talks with Hamas will do any good so why even bother.
I don't know why that would surprise anybody. I thought the fact that all Israelis (with a few exceptions) have to serve 2 or 3 years in the military was well known. This has been the case for decades. I also don't know why this is of any importance. I mean Switzerland, Austria, Egypt and many others have required military service, although some restrict it to men and they all have some exceptions.
Hamas hasn't said this is an issue for a cease fire.
Hamas has made the 'siege' of Gaza an issue, but I haven't heard them mention the West Bank. And although the have stated the opening of the border with Egypt is a requirement, they haven't launched a single missile into Egypt. I am sure that is just an oversight and not an indication that their real goal is the destruction of Israel.
Haven't heard this mentioned by Hamas.
Don't remember this condition from Hamas either.
So Iran builds and sells home made rockets to Hamas?
Mike O'Brien
Ever had weeds in your yard? Why not just cut them off at ground level? Wouldn't that be easier than removing the roots too?
As long as Hamas keeps shovelling it.
Crush Them
@Mike O'Brien None of those countries currently brutally occupy the lands of others. I am sure they would all take great exception at having their military systems compared to that of Israel.
Egypt does not control their waters, airspace or 90 percent of their borders. Israel is 98 percent of the equation, by any fool's calculation. And do you know what would happen if Egypt and Hamas became best buddies tomorrow? They Egyptians would get smashed, just like in 67. The Egyptians will not defy Israel. They are also a sort of hostage to Israel. Hamas knows this. Egypt only opens the crossing when humanitarian reasons are so painfully obvious that Israel would take political damage if they did anything about it.
And I think you have Hamas demands to end the short term current conflict confused with Hamas demands to end the general long term conflict. Just yesterday the Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal demanded an end to the occupation. He said:
"I can't co-exist with occupation. Without occupation, you can co-exist," he said. "I'm ready to co-exist with the Jews, with the Christians and with the Arabs and non-Arabs." Of course he meant West Bank also.
Speaking of the blockade, another top Hamas leader said "Gaza has decided to end the blockade by its blood and by its courage," he said. "This siege, this unjust siege, must be lifted."
Tamarama
Mike O'Brien
Your focus on Hamas is blinding you from the bigger picture.
Palestinian people don't equal Hamas, and the current conflict is just a symptom of a much broader set of issues that combine to stoke the fires of discontent in Gaza and The West Bank. Hamas' influence is waning in Gaza, and even at it's height, only about 30% of the population actually voted for them in elections (2006).
Some reading for you:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28252155
ulysses
In simple words,we will keep on carrying out unprovoked attacks on Israel. No hope for peace as long as Hamas is around.
Wipe it out and you have hope for peace.
yabits
Let's not forget how a "blinding" focus on Hamas started this latest round:
Three Israeli teens were kidnapped in the West Bank (not Gaza) and later found dead. The Zionist leadership immediately put the blame on Hamas. (Hamas claimed to have nothing to do with it.)
The Zionists immediately put out the order to round up around 500 known or suspected Hamas sympathizers in the West Bank, rounding them up like Gestapo thugs. (The brutal beating of an American teenager is captured on video for all to see.) Many, if not most of those rounded up would be subjected to beatings and torture. No law applies to them that they can appeal to.
Israel launches air strikes on Gaza in an attempt to get at Hamas leaders. A Palestinian boy is kidnapped and brutally lynched by young Zionists.
Hamas responds with rockets. These miniature rockets do not represent anything of a serious threat to the Zionist state, but it provides the reasoning to kill hundreds of Arabs.It was finally admitted later that Hamas had nothing to do with the kidnappings pf the three teens.
BurakuminDes
@ yabits - excellent points. The Israeli regime as you say is so similar to the Gestapo it is disturbing. How long can the civilised world allow this child-killing, genocidal, hospital and school-targetting Israeli regime to exist? Hopefully not much longer.
Equality
@BurakuminDes - It sounds like you and Hamas share the same ethos. They are always looking for more 'martyrs', so maybe this is your big chance to join the cause?
As for people who make the ridiculous and highly offensive comparison between Israelis and Nazis, it simply shows their ignorance of the scale of atrocities committed during WW2 and how these atrocities were systematically carried out.
yabits
The means will be boycotts, divestment and sanctions, just as it was with the racist apartheid regimes in Rhodesia and South Africa. These regimes depend upon the Big Lie, and that includes Zionist Israel -- and only through continuous exposition of that lie will the nations of the world begin to act. It will have to come as a grassroots movement of ordinary people. Arms-merchants and other business in the U.S. are too invested in the status quo.
For example, I helped lead and promote an employee-led proposal for stockholders to vote on at my company's annual shareholders' meeting. It took five years of re-submitting before the company finally announced it was completely ending its business relationship with South Africa. (The proposal lost big at first, but kept getting more and more support with each year until the company saw the writing on the wall.)
Though I was not opposed to Israel at the time, one thing that disturbed me was learning that they had developed their nuclear weapons with help from the apartheid regime.
Oyajid
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2709233/Israeli-leader-Netanyahu-vows-continue-strikes-Gaza-entire-Hamas-tunnel-network-destroyed-North-Korea-deny-providing-arms-Palestinian-group.html
Respectable people indeed. I reckon these lovely people are from the party which is right now in power. But then again the pictures bellow taken by AP journalists are Hamas propaganda and photoshoped!
avigator
There will never be peace in these lands, at least under human governments. No matter what version you look at, it will be the same outcome:
http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-3.htm
"While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape".
bass4funk
If Hamas puts down their weapons and surrenders unconditionally, give up their rockets immediately, this would all stop. The ball is in their court. Hopefully for the sake of the innocent civilians in Gaza, Hamas realizes they totally have blood on their hands.
ulysses
Hope on, Israel will not only exist, it will thrive and emerge stronger with each conflict.
There are enough countries which understand that Israel exists in a difficult region, where the smallest sign of weakness could means its destruction.
Everybody may criticise it in Public, but the support for Israel is still the same.
SuperLib
If Egypt controlled all of that, they'd close it. It has nothing to do with Egypt sucking up to Israel. Hamas is supported by Shiite Iran, an enemy of Egypt. Egypt wants nothing to do with radical Palestinians spilling over into their country and this is the one and only reason why they blockade Gaza. The reason why people don't talk about this more is because it doesn't fit into their narrative about Israel's actions. Nothing more, nothing less.
Exactly. I agree 110%. But the people are held hostage by Hamas' one and only function, which is violence. Stop setting Hamas aside and deal with it head-on.
yabits
The ordinary people of those countries are coming to understand that the nation they call "Israel" was founded upon racism, ethnic cleansing, and lies. Right from its outset. More of the actual history is being brought to light by Israelis. Miko Peled, for example is a former IDF officer. His father was an IDF general, and his grandfather one of the founders of the state. He knows where the skeletons are buried, and he and an increasing number of his peers are coming forward and speaking out.
Most will recognize your statement as classic paranoia. The smallest sign of weakness? So that means brutality and torture and mass-killing of civilians is justified? (Is this what being Jewish condones?) The irony is that so many Israelis hold dual citizenship and can live elsewhere if they so chose. And so they choose a comfortable life in Israel built on brutality, injustice, occupation, land and water-theft, and siege.
No, the Zionist state will be done in by Judasim, eventually and ultimately.
MarkG
Strong words Yabits. I'll make no predictions but do challenge posters here to review Israel's history from several sources. It's not a proud history.
I say several sources because English language media is Semite dominant
turbotsat
What country subjected to monthly rocket fire would hold back from invading the area hosting the launches? Certainly not Japan, USA, SK, or China.
Israel d--d if they do and d--d if they don't. They should have invaded Gaza a long time ago. A day or so ago one report said they now control 44 pct of Gaza. They should bump that up to 100 pct when they can.
It's not that I don't have sympathy for the Palestinians. But they've got no chance, unless Iran gets nukes and helps them out, or Hamas gets nukes provided to them. Israel is stupid to prolong things. They might be stretching things out over the years due to world pressure. I think that is not enough, though. Maybe they prolong it (with ceasefires, withdrawals, peace talks) to succor and justify their own military-industrial sector. But long-term, it's stupid. If they don't take Gaza back, they're just looking to the day when Hamas does has the capability to strike hard at them. Does anyone think Hamas won't use that capability?
The graph below tells the tale. No year without rocket attacks from 2001 to 2014, before the current Gaza invasion. If Mexico made even a small portion of these attacks against USA, USA would invade. If DPRK to Japan, Japan would at least strike back, but if they shared a land border Japan would invade DPRK. If DPRK did this to ROK (SK), ROK would invade DPRK at some point.
google images: hamas rocket graph 2014
http://www.idfblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/graph.jpg
Rocket Graphs on Israel from the Gaza Strip, 2001-2014, before Operation Protective Edge
ka_chan
This is boring. Every 3 years or so, the same thing. Nothing changes. Isn't it a mark of insanity to do something over and over again and expect different results? Which side is insane? Both are doing the same thing they did before, and before, and before.....
bass4funk
@turbotsat
Perfect analysis, very clear, very simple and completely on point. 110% agree! All the more reason that Israel at this point needs and must push through to once and for all eradicate and neutralize Hamas's capability to attack the Israelis. Hamas is 100% at fault for putting its own people in harms way, but as we know, they couldn't care less as long as they can win the war of sympathy, because that's all they have, that is their ace in the hole.
Kuya 808
If we thumb back through the pages of history, all the way back to the first known examples in the western world; and even into the world of pre-history. You will find a story of continuous strife and conflict in this area. The idea of a standing army, the concept of conquest and the western image of empire were all born in this region. This same area gave rise to the three great Abrahamic religions, whose influences (both good and bad) can be seen in everyday events worldwide. For Western European and Middle Eastern civilizations this is where it all began, this the birthplace of the mores and core values that have served to shape them into what we see today. This place is truly the cradle of their civilizations.
As this conceptual framework for civilization spread out into the world, each step was guided by a series of circumstances and situations that fine tuned it and led it on a myriad of alternate paths. Some of those paths did not stray too far from the main road while others have led to societies that bear little, if any, resemblance to the original culture that spawned them. Think Denmark and say… Yemen. Couldn't be two more different places but each of their cultures and societies are built on the same foundation. With the Western Europeans it seems that the farther away they are, physically, from the land of their cultural birth the more alien it is to them. Yet at the same time, for many, there is an almost visceral attraction to what is happening there now. That’s because the same thread that runs through all of their cultures goes straight back to where it all began.
The people who are fighting in Gaza today are the traditional descendants of the same people that have been fighting in this region for, at least, the last six thousand years. They are carrying on the true traditional heritage of their people and haven’t strayed far from the original plan. We’re just seeing the 2014 version, there will surely be more to see in the future.
Wolfpack
The irrational hatred of Jews by much of the world (and a surprising number of JT site posters) combined with the intolerance of Islamofacist groups like Hamas is the reason why year-after-year, decade-after-decade it's the same story. Try leaving the Jews alone and watch peace break out all over Gaza. What do people want them to do, just sit there and die?
Serrano
"The people who are fighting in Gaza today are the traditional descendants of the same people that have been fighting in this region for, at least, the last six thousand years. They are carrying on the true traditional heritage of their people and haven’t strayed far from the original plan. We’re just seeing the 2014 version, there will surely be more to see in the future."
This reminds me of the Doonesbury strip where an Iraqi complains to an American soldier about an Iraqi from a different tribe who killed some of his family, the American soldier was aghast and asked "When was this?" The answer was in th neighborhood of a couple of thousand years ago.
Tamarama
Yabits is absolutely right.
I think what people who focus all of their attention on Hamas fail to see or realise, is that Hamas are a symptom of the situation in Gaza and The West Bank. The oppression and complete mistreatment of Palestinians for a long time now has given rise to desperation and a willingness to try ANYTHING, providing it offers the chance of improvement from a miserable and desperate situation.
It's very convenient to taint the Palestinians as people who trend towards terrorism and violence because that makes the Western World read the media reports of mass killings of civilians in Gaza with a little less discomfort. You see it here on JT - people who have more than likely never met a Palestinian, or been to Israel just casually comment that they should be 'wiped out', or conveniently equate Hamas as all Palestinian people, so as to justify their position.
If you treat people like dogs for long enough, they will do just about anything to get out of that situation - and will consider actions they WOULDN'T OTHERWISE under normal living conditions. It's under such conditions that extreme groups like Hamas can exist.
Israel has been allowed to get away with this for too long. The world turns a blind eye to what it does, and that's both Internationally irresponsible and continues to perpetuate the cycle of violence.
And for the record, I absolutely recognise the State of Israel's right to exist, and my position has nothing to do with any kind of dislike for Jews whatsoever.
sfjp330
Tamaram aJul. 30, 2014 - 07:39AM JST I think what people who focus all of their attention on Hamas fail to see or realise, is that Hamas are a symptom of the situation in Gaza and The West Bank.
Are we saying that people who voted for Hamas in 2006 are also Hamas members? Are we punishing all the Palestinians for what Hamas, which is being termed a terrorist organization by Israel and maybe by some other countries?
bass4funk
NOT the Palestinian people, I don't believe most people believe that, but people do want to see Hamas snuffed out for sure as they are the main problem that stands in the way of any possible and future peace negotiations.
Oh, stop, even before Hamas, the radical fundamental Anti-Israel fanatics and Jihadists were always trying to cause mayhem and destruction on the Israeli people. It's their own fault and then later the people chose Hamas as their legitimate representative leader.
No, Israel ALLOWED Hamas for way too long to get away with them by giving them time to construct more labyrinth tunnels and to accumulate a vast arsenal of weapons, I fault them for that.
Well, that is something we both can agree on.
SenseNotSoCommon
Since the Korean War, there have been numerous examples of DPRK attacking ROK and its assets; from a raid on the Blue House to bombing civil aircraft and territory, naval skirmishes and thousands of abductions.
This weapons exporting rogue state can totally ignore world opinion, international law and nuclear non-proliferation agreements because of a very powerful and generous ally.
Sound familiar?
yabits
Yes. The Palestinians have very little left to lose. Israel has made sure of that.
For the record, no state or political system has a right to exist that brutally and systematically brutalizes another ethnic group. Not Nazi Germany, not apartheid South Africa, and not Zionist Israel.
In the link below, an American Jewish woman recounts her experiences living with Palestinians in the West Bank over many months. She recounts a recent story of Zionist settlers who wanted a piece of land in the West Bank and forced 300 villagers to move by poisoning their water supply. This is West Bank land that is supposed to belong the Palestinians. In another area, settlers wanted grazing land that belonged to Arabs, so they mixed up barley meal and poison in the attempt to kill off the villagers sheep. These are ordinary Palestinians who are just trying to live out their lives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIyJpW4F_1M
Americans should come to understand what they are paying nearly $4 Billion a year for.
bass4funk
As they should. Thank Hamas for the systematic destruction and demise of the Palestinian people.
Israel is not apart of that, wise up, they have EVERY right to live in peace, they have EVERY right to exist, there is NOTHING scientific about this. The group is a registered terrorist group, all the more reason to eradicate it.
Qatar has given million and even Obama offered fund Hamas
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/06/08/obamas-outrageous-decision-to-fund-hamas-aligned-palestinian-regime/
The world should really understand, Hamas only cares about Hamas and the destruction of the Jewish state and will do anything, even kill their own people to justify their cause.
yabits
The young Jewish woman who lived in Israel (see link above) explains with example after example how Israel is a part of that. Zionists can destroy Palestinian lives in the West Bank with impunity and they do it on a regular basis.
Miko Peled is an Israeli, born in Israel, a former IDF officer, and son of an IDF general, and the grandson of one of Israel's founders. He can recount example after example that Israel is part of that.
Readers are free to listen to what ordinary Jews and Israelis are saying -- things that run counter to the propaganda and the illusion that Israel is struggling to maintain.
FPSRussia
In the words of Ken Watanabe: "Let them fight".
This has got to come to an end. So lets get this over with.
turbotsat
@SenseNotSoCommon
The number of DPRK attacks on ROK don't amount to much, especially spread out over 60 years. 3800 abductions since 1953, almost all fisherman, mostly in late 70's. More recently ROKS Cheonan sinking and various bombardments of shore islands. Not comparable to ongoing rocket attacks over the last 15 years, tunnels, etc. Imagine monthly rocket attacks from DPRK at populated cities in South Korea? Would South Korea sit still?
I don't think the killings of the three teenagers was enough to go to war over, it's a fraction of the annual Israel murder rate (135 murders in 2009). But were the ongoing rocket attacks and tunnel excavations enough? Sure. Try picturing any country submitting to that, for any reason except weakness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_South_Koreans#Major_abduction_cases
Status of abducted and detained persons[29]
Division Total Fishermen Korean Air 1-2 boat Others
Abduction 3,796 3,696 50 24 26
Detention 480 427 11 24 18
Kuya 808
And please pray tell, who made that rule? What world entity has the moral authority to determine which nation or political system has the right to exist or not.
If your criteria for inclusion, or exclusion, from the community of nations were to be applied across the board it would be a very small community indeed.
Wakarimasen
As they should. Thank Hamas for the systematic destruction and demise of the Palestinian people.
Really Bass. Pre 1919 weren't the Palestinian people just fine before 100's of thousands of Jews we allowed to resettle in Palestine with direct UK and French support?
sure today Hamas actions are illogical and destructive, but there is a genuine historical grievance here that cannot be ignored.
MarkG
Not at all JTDan! Simply stating a fact. Yes, I do have sympathy for the Palestinians. Just as I would have had for the Native Americans. Quite similar situations.
Stuart hayward
Mike O'Brian: Since you decided to reply to my comment instead of SuperLib, I will answer your question. Because my first trip to Israel was more than twenty five years ago, I was simply unaware that Israel requires you to take military training, I remember being supprised about the same thing in South Africa as well. Trying to justify by saying other countries do it, does not make it right, plus you are missing the point. I stayed and surfed with several families while I was there, the youngest ones really changed by my third trip. They became soo intolerant towards every neighboring country and expressed hatred to those critizens. I asked why they felt that way and the responded by saying, in military training we were tought about the history of all the horrible actions committed by our neighbors and to be vigilant of suspicious behavior. They were also trained to physical fight and use weapons, soecficaly agaist those preserved threats. So, In different ways, BOTH sides teach violence, intolerance and various levels of hatred.
slumdog
To be said to be stating a fact, you would actually have to be stating facts. What you wrote was not a fact. Although it strikes me as very telling about you in other ways.
I urge you to consider saving your David Duke 'the Jews control the Media' posts for online discussions that are more appropriate, such as Stormfront.
SuperLib
Garbage. It's ruling with a brutal fist while being funded by Iran that causes groups like Hamas to exist.
You keep trying to lump in Gaza and the West Bank together which is a stretch not based in reality. The world can have a conversation with Abbas. The world condemns Israel for the settlements, and I do as well. Every single time they are mentioned I write a response saying how misguided Israel's settlements are. I firmly believe that expanding the settlements constitutes a crime.
But ya know what? Fatah is not Hamas.
Hamas is brutal. Go read about what they did to Fatah members when they were voted into office. Read the stories about hunting down and murdering Fatah members, their own people which you lump into the same group. Do you want aid from Hamas? Sure, sign a document pledging your support for them and you get it. If you don't, then you can go die somewhere. Want to get one of the passes that allows you to cross over into Egypt? You'd better be a Hamas supporter or else. Read about how they used a mentally challenged boy as a bomber or a disfigured woman as another, telling her that she was useless so she should donate herself to the cause. This whole notion that they are just fighters doing what you or I would do is just insane. They kill their own kind without mercy. Maybe you would fight back but you wouldn't do what Hamas is doing and neither do a majority of Palestinians.
Abbas gets invited to speak at the UN, Hamas is labeled a terrorist organization by everyone under the sun. That's the difference between Gaza and the West Bank. Egypt wants nothing to do with Hamas and blocks their own borders because of what Hamas is. That's to say that even other Arab nations can see what Hamas really is, so pinning this all on Israel is short sighted.
They are dogs, pure and simple. They are the biggest obstacle to the peace process. They only know violence and all they add to the situation is violence and death.
bass4funk
@wakarimasen
So you're saying it was wrong for them to resettle back to their land of origin??
If you make that kind of argument, then every Black person in this world is completely justified in hating white people and if they commit an act of violence against them it's because of genuine historical grievance. That's what you are really essentially saying, right?
Stuart hayward
SuperLib: still no reply? You say that Hamas only knows violence and they teach their children the same. I agree, but I would also say the same thing of Israel, violent actions & reactions, are a way of life in Israel and it gradually affects the very young and salitifies by the time they're adults. Plus forced military training tends to inhance intolerance and violent responce. In different ways, BOTH sides are guilty of this.
horizon360
bass4funk wrote: In response to ||'sure today Hamas actions are illogical and destructive, but there is a genuine historical grievance here that cannot be ignored.'|| "If you make that kind of argument, then every Black person in this world is completely justified in hating white people and if they commit an act of violence against them it's because of genuine historical grievance. That's what you are really essentially saying, right?"
Perhaps. But not until (we) lock all the black folk into a reservation zones and begin using drones to obliterate their shanties....
bass4funk
Reservations, shackles and chains and servitude, it's all the same.
slumdog
Wow, three thumbs down for pointing out the Mark G suggesting the media is controlled by Jews is an inappropriate thing, not to mention incorrect, thing to say. I realize the posts are gone now (Mark G's was up for about a day), but you all know what he wrote. Which ever side you decide you are on, I cannot understand support for any racist remarks about either side.
SuperLib
Violence is not the key to Palestinan statehood. I'm shocked by the number of Westerners who believe that it is.
slumdog
Actually, I should correct myself. Although my original comment is gone. Mark G's is still there:
zichi,
I agree that Israel is 100% responsible for any loss of innocent life that it causes, but it seems to me that neither side knows when to stop. It really does. The ones that suffer are the average people on both sides, but mostly on the Palestinian side especially in Gaza. Hamas needs to agree to a permanent truce and start taking lessons from the great leaders such as Martin Luther King and Mahatma Ghandi and use non-violent means to seek a peaceful permanent solution for all concerned. On Israel's side, Netanyahu must stop building settlements in the West Bank and show a more sincere desire to talk to any and all Palestinian leaders who express a true desire to make peace. This includes Hamas if they change their minds. Menachem Begin was a member of the Irgun and managed to trade land and make peace with Egypt. Netanyahu should take a page from that book and move in that direction. Hamas must lay down their arms and change their attitude toward one of mutual recognition and peaceful coexistence with two nations side by side: Israel and Palestine. Failure to do this will only lead to this happening again and again.
Stuart hayward
SuperLib: Rather than respond, you simply keep changing the subject again! I will reply to your new comment of deflection. You say that you are shocked by the number of westerners who think violence is the key to Palestinian statehood?? There is not one comment, on this thread, of "westerners", supporting your claim. If anything, I think America's support of eight million a day to Israel, shows the exact opposite is true.
slumdog
I agree that Israel could do so as a willing partner, but how does Hamas fit into your equation? Do you think Israel could accomplish this without Hamas agreement? If so, how? Just up and leaving the territory will not do this as Hamas still says they will not stop until Israel is destroyed.
SenseNotSoCommon
We wouldn't even be here if Israel hadn't rejected the 2003 Geneva Accord:
@ A mutual Israeli-Palestinian declaration of an end to the conflict and future claims. @ Mutual recognition of both nations and their right to an independent state. @ Almost complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders, with a limited number of settlement blocs on the basis of a 1:1 land swap. @ A comprehensive solution to the issue of the Palestinian refugees based on the Clinton Parameters (2000); of which the main component will be compensation and a return to an independent Palestinian State. @ Jewish Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and Arab Jerusalem as Palestine’s capital with Jewish areas under Israeli sovereignty and Arab areas under Palestinian sovereignty. @ A non-militarized Palestinian state and detailed security arrangements.
Instead, the interim has seen accelerated West Bank settlement building (AKA arbitrary theft of land either by decree or armed squatters); Palestinian residents subject to draconian military powers including indefinite detention without trial, and forced to live (or abandon ancestral homelands) in increasingly fragmented lands separated by 25ft walls; 'Apartheid highways' (for Israelis' use only - the two communities have different color licence plates); blocked roads and 'security' checkpoints with no guarantee of prompt or even any passage.
Add to this the impunity with which settlers and military alike can and regularly do threaten, assault and even kill Palestinians, little wonder Hamas exists.
The challenge for us all (it's not an us/them issue) is to disarm hearts and minds on both sides, and do it quickly. The longer this wound festers, the stronger Hamas, third-rate imams and pimply wannabe jihadists everywhere become.
yabits
Yet violence is key to Zionist statehood and domination. I am a bit shocked at the number of Westerners who fail to see that.
A key point is this: the vast majority of Palestinians are non-violent and have been using non-violent resistance methods continually for years now. Why is there no protest when Israelis use violence, even killing protesters, when putting down non-violent demonstrations in the West Bank -- on supposedly Palestinian land? Israel has made the killing of innocent Arabs so routine and systematic that the world doesn't even care about it.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/05/israel_and_palestine_0
You have Zionist settlers who believe that all of the West Bank is Jewish land and that it's the Palestinians who are the invaders, and they treat them that way. Like the group who poisoned the drinking water of the Arab village of 300 they wanted to clear, mentioned above.
Then there's the story of Juliano Mer-Khamis, a former IDF soldier who served in the West Bank village of Jenin. One of his jobs was to carry a "weapons bag." If an old Arab woman or child was killed "by accident," his job was to put a weapon on the corpse, to send a message. One day, as he recounts, some members of his troop were conducting shoulder-fired missile practice on a donkey and "accidentally" killed the 12-year-old girl who was sitting astride it. In accordance with the practice, Mer-Khamis left a weapon near the corpses.
In my view, the real anti-Semite is the one who attaches Judaism to this kind of behavior.
The point again is that the vast majority of Palestinians are using non-violent protest as their means, and have been doing so for years, and that they are being beaten, imprisoned or killed for doing so. Why is there no expression of outrage at the Israeli violence against peaceful protest? First of all, the attention of most Westerners is focused exactly where the Zionist terrorists want it focused. In WWII, certain groups were called monsters, butchers and criminals for exacting heavy civilian reprisals for even one of their own killed.
Israel, in its current form, could never and will never do this. It is impossible for them. People need to face reality. There is too much good land and water resources that they control in the West Bank. The Israeli government is paying those who will move to these illegal settlements the equivalent of $20,000 US. And of course, this is being funded by the U.S. too.
Mike O'Brien
@Crush Them, the original comment indicate surprise at required miltary service and that is the ONLY thing I was comparing. Sorry that you could understand that.
Thank you for doing the calculation. And since you agree that Egypt is 2% of equation, why doesn't Hamas fire 2% of their missiles into Egypt?
Well Egypt and Hamas where best buddies just a few years ago. And guess what? Egypt didn't get smashed.
Tamarama
I am not focusing on Hamas, I am questioning why so many are refusing to look at Hamas.
Your ignoring Hamas is blinding you to the bigger picture. Since Hamas is part of the big picture their actions or lack of actions have to be considered just as much as the actions and inactions of Israel.
Hamas recieved 44.45% of the vote in 2006, beating second place Fatah by 3%.
SenseNotSoCommon
Mike O'Brian,
Perhaps this piece by Israeli journalist Noam Sheizaf might help you understand:
http://972mag.com/why-do-palestinians-continue-to-support-hamas-despite-such-devastating-loses/94080/
Meanwhile, 3,300 Palestinians heeding IDF orders to evacuate took refuge in a UN school overnight. At least 19 were killed by IDF ordnance:
http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/unrwa-strongly-condemns-israeli-shelling-its-school-gaza-serious
Here, respected Channel 4 News anchor Jon Snow laments Western apathy at children's deaths: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACgwr2Nj_GQ&feature=youtu.be
Finally, animated comment on the futility of war: http://vimeo.com/50531435
slumdog
SenseNotSoCommon,
Good post and points, again. Refreshing, as always.
Yes, good ol' Sharon making trouble again. Sharon made it clear he would have been against making a deal in 2000 and 2001 if he were prime minister. Of course, had Barak and Arafat made a deal in 2000 and 2001, Barak probably would have been reelected again. Even if he had not, Sharon would have had to abide by what was agreed to anyway. Then, it would have not been an issue anymore in 2003.
Best point of the discussion. I agree 100%. This is the only way. Both sides need to be encouraged to go to the negotiating table. That means Netanyahu and Hamas/Fatah.
Now, on to other posters:
Come on, Stuart. Both you and I know you have been active in these discussions and know full well that there are a few posters here that think Hamas violence is not only justified but necessary and at least one has actively and specifically calls for the destruction of Israel as the only viable solution.
Do you, Stuart, support Hamas' continued rocket attacks in the face of the current situation? Don't you think serious negotiations between the Palestinians and Israelis would serve them both better than this constant round and round of attacks? Personally, I am sick of this constant cycle of violence.
Now, I would like to respond to your previous post. I am sure SuperLib would respond as well with his own opinion.
I am sure being in a constant state of war affects both sides negatively. No doubt about it. However, there are many liberal Israelis and many (most) who want a peaceful two state solution. You can find many interviews on the internet and the media of Israeli children and young people saying these very things. There are many interviews with young Israelis where they clearly say that although the rockets are frightening, that they know the average Gazan has it much, much worse. So, I would disagree if you are suggesting that Israelis feel no ampathy with the Gazans' situation.
Actually, I often see quite the opposite. For many, military service helps the Israelis realize that they would prefer peace rather than fighting. If you ask most young Israelis if they would prefer to fight or not, they would answer they would prefer not to. South Korea has the draft as well and I would say it is the same there as well.
The only real solution is one where both sides come together and negotiate until a deal is made.
yabits,
Violence was the key to your own country's existence, too. Also to its domination of minorities. Both the Israelis and Palestinians have always used violence, have always broken each others agreements and have not managed to stay at the negotiating table long enough to make a deal.
No, THE key point is this. The majority of BOTH sides is largely non-violent. The majority of BOTH sides wants to live in peace. There are plenty of peace organizations in Israel that show this.
You have them and you have Hamas. The difference? Hamas are the actual leaders of the Palestinians. The settlers are not the leaders of Israel. Settlers get dragged screaming off of land Israel trades for peace. So, the settlers are merely pawns.
Claiming Jews control the media is anti-Semitic. One would think you could at least acknowledge this.
The message has not reached Hamas. That is the problem. It only works if the leaders are non-violent protesters. King and Ghandi led non-violent protests. Hamas shoots rockets. The two cannot be compared in any way, shape or form.
Olmert was planning to do this. Barak was hoping to do this. Netanyahu? I have no idea what the man is really thinking. The point is there have to be committed leaders on both sides. However, Hamas' attitude helps keeps the status quo. Encouraging Hamas helps keep the status quo. You said it yourself. Hamas are the Israeli extremists' dream. So, why should Hamas do it that way then? Why play it that way when they could say, "Okay, we renounce violence and want to work for a real peace. Let's get started." You can bet the world would rally around their cause if Netanyahu did not respond favorably. However, we will never get to see this if Hamas continues they way they are.
The water resources are mostly from farther up north. Water sharing arrangements were very successfully being worked on in previous discussions. Both sides said so in 2000 and 2001. Both sides show progress. Outside observers saw progress. It can and will happen someday.
They will be gone when a deal is made just as the settlers were removed from Gaza and Sinai. The two sides need to work and make a deal and it is time the world started to try and figure out a way to get them to do so.
But, as Robert Malley pointed out. It will happen. It is just a matter of sooner or later. I am hoping for sooner. I would love to see a Palestinian nation and an Israeli nation side by side in peace and so would most of the world.
Mike O'Brien
And that piece has absolutely nothing to do with the statement you quoted.
Stuart hayward
Slumdog: The comment in question was SuperLib saying (he was shocked by the number of westerners who thin violence is key to Palestinian statehood) No one said that, not one comment. There was one or two who supported violent response by Palestine but he didn't claim to be a westerner nor mention violence is key to statehood. I don't support any form of violence other than TRUE self defense!!! And I have NEVER made a comment to state otherwise. If you actually count, there are MANY more comments that DO support & justify Israeli violence. In regards to military training, i was talking from my personal experiences after visiting and living in Israel. It's just my opinion, not fact. I can tell you for sure, after these teenagers were finished with their training 2 out of 4 of them were no longer someone you would want to hang out with, unless you had the misfortune of being caught in a war and they were on your side. Military can and does change people, some for the better and some for the worse.
mongolll
Islam takes over Europe - Bottom Up and takes over USA - Top Down.
Mid east conflict is mainly between 2 groups : Muslim brothers -Turkey, Qatar and Hamas with support of Iran VS stable Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. USA clearly chose the first group for "some" reason. this is why it won't let its dear baby - Hamas gang, to fall down.
Israel (former friend of USA) will pay the price for this policy.
Japan - as USA "friend", must understand the change USA is going through and must be more independent otherwise it will find itself alone in a problematic area - just like Israel did.
Israel is a microcosm of the free world in years to come
yabits
This is speaking of the past. The past wrongs of America do not justify the current wrongs of Zionist Israel. Most importantly, the guiding principle here was to allow everyone to vote. Zionist Israel, in order to remain a Jewish state, much as apartheid South Africa was to be a white state, must oppose and subvert democracy. This is completely counter to the values of my country, and my nation should stop supporting it completely w/regard to Israel..
Incorrect. Like apartheid South Africa, the Jim Crow south, Nazi Germany, et. al., the maintaining of a comfortable life-style and expanding settlements means that every citizen is complicit in the violence that underpins it. I do not believe that Hamas has the support of a majority of Palestinians. But a very large majority on the other side heartily endorses IDF and settler violence to maintain domination by one ethnic group over all of Palestine.
When the chips are down, the IDF will rush to the protection of illegal settlers if need be, and the people will cheer it. No, Zionist Israel depends upon violence in all forms to keep Arabs under control, and this means the vast majority of non-violent Palestinians. You are simply in complete denial, having given yourself over to fantasies. I was once where you are now.
Your desperation is making you sound ridiculous. The leaders of the Palestinian non-violent resistance movement are not Hamas. American racists back in the day undermined King's movement by tying it to the Black Panthers, the same as you are doing with non-violent Palestinians and Hamas.
Keep in mind that a siege is an act of war, and Israel placed Gaza under siege before Hamas fired a single rocket.
If genuine democracy -- one man; one vote -- threatens the existence of a state, then the problem is with the state, not democracy. Apartheid South Africa could not exist in that form, and neither can Zionist Israel with Palestinian Bantustans.
You are dreaming. To remove the ideological settlers from land considered part of historical Israel will mean Israelis killing Jews on a very serious scale. The state will split internally and "new leaders" put in place before it would ever happen. The hard-liners will commit even more acts of violence against Palestinians hoping to incite a response that will cause deluded folks like yourself to endorse more mass-killing and ethnic cleansing of civilian populations. This has been the Zionists game all along and so far, it has worked for them. But not much longer.
The key factor is the pressure that will be applied once all foreign aid and investment to Israel dries up. This is what needs to happen and will happen. Those who support systematic racism and brutal oppression stand on the wrong side of history.
Claiming those who are blindly pro-Israel have tremendous influence over the media is dead-on accurate. I won't quibble over details. The anti-Semite card should always be recognized as a desperate one, employed by losers. The IDF and settler violence against non-violent Palestinian citizens and demonstrators runs completely against Judaism. A media that fails to report that has its reasons for doing so. Images of dead and brutalized non-violent Palestinians would raise more sympathy, and that is what many in the media cannot afford.
mongolll
Islam takes over Europe - Bottom Up and takes over USA - Top Down.
SenseNotSoCommon
Mike O'Brian,
Did you read it? Sheizaf talks of seeking to understand context: key to critical thinking. You wrote:
Why haven't you heard Hamas mention the West Bank, I wonder? Where have you been looking?
Here's McGill University political science professor, Julie Norman, currently based in Jerusalem, commenting on the operation to find those kidnapped teens in the West Bank:
http://972mag.com/beyond-mission-creep-why-operation-brothers-keeper-isnt-working/92471/
Those five Palestinians died protesting wholesale raids of Palestinian properties and interests, many of which were linked with Hamas. The arrested included the Speaker and six members of the Palestinian Legislative Council.
You'll see there are plenty of Hamas legislators in the West Bank, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_members_of_Palestinian_Legislative_Council
How damaged Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah are by Operations Brother's Keeper and Protective Edge remains to be seen.
Does Bibi want peace, or a legacy as a tough, uncompromising patriot? He can't have both.
bass4funk
So what's your point?
SenseNotSoCommon
A legal one perhaps, Bass?
4th Geneva Convention, article 49:
UN resolution 3103:
yabits
You have just helped make it: Israel can lie, cheat, steal, terrorize and kill -- with U.S. taxpayer dollars -- and there will be people who won't see anything wrong with it. Heck, they'll even cheer on the crimes That's how deep they are up the Zionist kiester. And/or how much they despise Arabs.
Is there another reason why an occupying force with a military beyond compare should get a free pass on committing crimes?
To astute readers: The $20k is just another example of the utter lie of the "2-state solution" by Israel. The only reason you build all these illegal settlements, with all the roads and infrastructure to support them, and pay people a bonus to come live there is not because you believe there is any possibility that you would give it up. It is iron-clad proof that Israel is not seeking peace.
Mike O'Brien
SenseNoneSoCommon
Yes I read it. Did you read the statement of mine you originally quoted, that is NOT the quote you posted with this comment?
Is McGill University political science professor, Julie Norman, part of Hamas? Will wonders never cease!
Kuya 808
In 2004 the Palestinian Legislature enacted the “Palestinian Law of the Prisoner”. Under this legislation any Palestinian or Israeli Arab who is convicted for “resisting the occupation” is immediately placed on the Palestinian Authority payroll. There is a detailed pay scale with the longest serving and most “heroic” prisoners receiving the equivalent of around 3500USD monthly, plus bonuses for wives and children. Upon release the now ex-prisoner can look forward to a lump sum of, as much as, 85,000USD. All told, the yearly expenditure by the Palestinian Authority, for prisoner salaries and benefits, runs about 5% of their annual budget. The average Palestinian earns around 500USD per month.
In 2013 the Palestinian Authority paid out the equivalent of 100 million US dollars in direct payments and benefits to prisoners. That’s a lot of money; where did it come from? Well, a lot of it came to Palestine in the form of foreign aid from the Arab nations, the EU, Britain, Japan etc. “of course, this is being funded by the U.S. too.”
globalwatcher
**Israel has been told the locations of Hamas schools in Gaza by f*ing 17 times. Yes, seventeen times.
It needs to stop! The world is not blind and stupid. S.T.O.P. this nonsense immediately.
Wolfpack
@yabits
How high up Hamas's keister are you?
It is hard to be sympathetic towards the Palestinian's when after Israel ended their occupation of Gaza they voted in Hamas to run the government. The Palestinian people know Hamas is a terrorist organization dedicated to wiping Israel off the map. Arabs have been seeking to destroy Israel since the day it gained nationhood. The people of Israel are under siege by terrorist groups whose sole purpose is to kill them. There are many Palestinians living in Israel living in comfortably with Jews. Any Israeli that attempted to live in Gaza or the West Bank would be murdered.
And I will never forget the widespread Palestinian celebrations after 9/11. That disgusted me.
bass4funk
I really could give a damn what the UN thinks. Besides being good for humanitarian aid, they are a complete useless international entity. Israel is fighting for their very survival. Hamas is the problem, pure and simple, all of you can dissect and disseminate the problem all you want, but none of you here on JT can't do anything about it. For me, it's very simple, cut and dry. Hamas only wants one thing, they want the destruction of of the Jewish state, they don't want to live side by side, they don't want to live in harmony, they want and advocate the complete destruction of the entire Jewish race and until Israel is wiped off the map or every last Jew is forced out or killed, Hamas will NEVER stop, NEVER. and if you don't believe me, how about this....
http://youtu.be/nFSd7KaVhfo
This is an interview with Hamas Leader Khaled Meshaal now listen carefully what he says and much full of ** he really is and what his true heartfelt intentions really are. The last thing Israel needs to worry about is what the *****UN thinks, they need to worry about their people, sovereignly, their survival and until Hamas puts down its weapons and unconditionally surrenders, Israel should NEVER let up. It's that simple.
@yabits
Please tell that to Hamas for doing that to their own people and they don't feel sorry about it, all those casualties and the innocent people were put into that position by Hamas. Hamas just helped their cause and dragged their people into that. Place your anger with them, please.
Sorry, I believe in the right and the existence of the Jewish state. I know Israeli people and I know they are NOT a bunch of thugs that want to conquer and destroy, also I know a lot of good Palestinians, worked with a few and don't have a problem with them and they never said anything bad about Jewish people and believe that both sides can live in peace, both people are decent and good people, they are NOT the problem, it's all HAMAS. The sad thing is, people like you on every post, literally almost never condemn or say anything about what the Jihadist wing of the Palestinians and Hamas, but you are quick to condemn Israel, hmmmm.
SenseNotSoCommon
with exactly the same rights and privileges?
Actually there are hundreds of thousands of Israelis in the West Bank. Also, there are lots of Jewish peaceniks living among isolated Palestinian communities, for the latter's protection.
Throughout history, European Christians were the leading persecutors of Jews, who found safe haven in Islamic Andalusia and afterwards, Bosnia.
bass4funk
That depends on how Hamas conducts itself.
SenseNotSoCommon
More collective punishment, Bass?
Wolfpack
@Bass: It is blatantly obvious that yabits agrees with Hamas's goal - the elimination of the state of Israel. He cannot speak out against the use of terrorism to achieve political aims, so he focuses instead on blaming the victims of the aggression. The Palestinians voted for a known terrorist group in Gaza so they are absolutely complicit in the rocket attacks. No one should be surprised that Israel is fighting back.
Hamas knows that they cannot succeed using peaceful means. Hamas also knows it is targeting a militarily capable adversary. So it resorts to asymmetrical warfare; terrorism, targeting civilians, firing missiles at random into another country, hiding military munitions in schools, hospitals, and religious facilities, and waging war in civilian clothing as non-state combatants in opposition to international law.
globalwatcher
US evening news has just revealed tonight that Israel is now targeting at UN refugee schools where many Hamas children are sleeping. They are innocent. Leave them alone. Both sides need to stop this senseless war.
yabits
Newsflash: Apartheid South Africa has been wiped off the map. The world knows that genuine democracy in all of Palestine would see the Zionist government ended. And, as with apartheid, good riddance.
Jews lived as a minority group in Palestine for centuries, in relative peace and prosperity. Only around the time of the first world war, when European Zionists announced their plan to take all of Palestine as a Jewish homeland and ethnically cleanse the Arab population, did the Arabs seek to prevent that outcome. Who wouldn't?
Many hundreds of Israelis live among Palestinians in the West Bank. More are joining them in solidarity. Fewer these day, obviously, in Gaza. It is Israel that wants to keep Jews separated from Palestinians.
All Israelis are not Zionists. Nevertheless, many prominent Israelis are calling the IDF the real terrorist force in the region. Since 1947, their sole purpose has been to terrorize, conquer, and ethnically cleanse. They have wanted to completely erase Arab Palestine from the map.
Yes. The Zionist state has never wanted peace. They are the problem. Listen to this eminent Israel journalist telling you the bare facts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBa7VLXq6og
globalwatcher
zichiJul. 30, 2014 - 06:18PM JST
Zichi, spot on. That's why John Kerry's mediation failed and he came home with empty handed. Israel wants to stay in war until all Hamas tunnels and weapons are destroyed.
yabits
I just watched an astounding interview with Rabbi Henry Siegman, former head of the United Jewish Congress and the Synagogue Council of America. In it, he made the following points:
Hamas is no more a terrorist organization than several of the groups that helped found the state of Israel.
In response to Netanyahu's remarks that Israel does not honor terrorists or name streets after them, Rabbi Siegman reminds us that Israel honored two heads of terrorist organizations -- Begin and Shamir -- by making them prime ministers, and that plenty of streets are named after them.
He recounts an Israeli historian who wrote "the bible of the founding of Israel" as revealing that, during the war of 1948, Israeli field commanders were issued orders by Ben-Gurion to execute innocent civilians as a way to terrorize Palestinians into leaving their homes. The Jewish forces were the first ones to execute innocent civilians. Dozens, if not hundreds, were slaughtered. So much for "little David."
Everyone makes a big thing about Hamas not recognizing the state of Israel to exist. But nobody mentions that many of the ruling party (Likud) and several other Israeli parties completely deny the right of a Palestinian state to exist anywhere within Palestine.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzEwO5lO0z0
nath
I wonder what is Mossad doing about Hamas?
They could take out the leadership.
SenseNotSoCommon
@Globalwatcher,
...the West Bank appropriated, and all of Jerusalem declared the capital of Israel?
http://www.likud.org.il/en/about-the-likud/history-of-the-movement
Likud's Ying for Hamas' Yang?
We'll all need a lot of courage to escape this stalemate, but boy, will it be worth it!
horizon360
According to the UN, as of 30 minutes ago, there are now at least 219,657 evacuees within Gaza being housed in UN facilities. |That number totals more than double full capacity for the largest sports stadium in the U.S.|
lucabrasi
Yesterday' s attack on the UN school has done it for me.
No point commenting on the actions of a government like this any more, Israel no longer merits either praise or censure; she's coldly and deliberately moved to place herself outside the bounds of civilised society.
Until now, I always supported Israel's right to exist. Not any more. And I bet I'm one of many.
Boycott this evil government.
nath
Israel still has a right to exist, lets impose some sanctions on it and its enabler the USA.
The USA gives it money and the latest military tech and euipmemt and vetoes decisions that might hurt it at the UN.
Take those away and the conflict would have been sorted out a long time ago.
horizon360
Zichi wrote: "Its all for revenge of the killing of those young Jewish boys even though revenge was taken against Palestinians boys."
Completely untrue. That was (is) merely a pretext (as are incessant protestations about recognizing the right of Israel to exist and to enjoy peace and security, and calls for eradicating Hamas through violence in the name of peace). It is all about ideological (Zionist) claims to lands in Palestine and the coordinate political drive led by Likud for an expulsion of legacy inhabitants from the territory (refugees/Arabs) beyond (outside) Eretz Israel borders by whatever means is most convenient. It appears now that the most convenient way will mainly involve starving them out by cutting off their water and food.
bass4funk
@yabits
I'm just gonna leave that one alone, before I say something that will get my post deleted.
That constitute as a terrorist organization and subjected to every scrutiny there is.
Every Palestinian radical Jihadist I met do the same AND go to barber shop or some local restaurant and you'll see many photos of suicide attackers on the walls of these establishments.
Yes, that is bad, You do have bad people everywhere but you never justify bad behavior with more bad behavior, but you can make that argument about every race and society. Doesn't mean that the Palestinians have more rights to the Jewish homeland.
No, if the Palestinians would elect a REAL representative of the people for the Palestinians, the peace negotiations could have started years ago, the reason for the Palestinians not being able to get their own state is Hamas. Hamas is the problem, the cancer, the thorn and the obstacle that stands in the way of true peace between the Jewish people and the Palestinians. Get rid of them and all the radicals, you can start the peace process, other than that, it's going to be a dead end, merry-go-round.
@global
That's why John Kerry's mediation failed and he came home with empty handed. Israel wants to stay in war until all Hamas tunnels and weapons are destroyed.
Kerry has NO idea of what he is talking about, that Cease Fire between Turkey and Qatar would have allowed the Palestinians to keep their tunnels....
Noting that the US secretary chose to hold Saturday’s talks without representatives of Israel, the Palestinian Authority or Egypt, Erdan said this showed “we’re a long way from a political solution.”
Privately, Israeli leaders have signaled deep dismay that Kerry engaged in talks in Paris with representatives of Turkey, whose leadership is openly hostile to Israel, and Qatar, whose leadership is seen by Israel to be representing Hamas’s interests, and not to include Israel, the PA or Egypt.
Israeli government sources also privately contradicted Kerry’s assertion Friday that his ceasefire proposal was “built on” an Egyptian proposal from last Tuesday, which Israel accepted and Hamas rejected. Far from resembling the Egyptian proposal, which urges an immediate ceasefire followed by negotiation, the Kerry proposal leans heavily toward Hamas, the sources said, in tying Hamas preconditions to a cessation of hostilities.
Israel’s decision-making security cabinet on Friday unanimously rejected Kerry’s ceasefire offer. Ministers were horrified, government sources said, that the Kerry proposal did not provide for Israel to continue demolishing the Hamas network of “terror tunnels” dug under the Israeli border within the framework of the ceasefire. The cabinet did not formally announce on Friday night that it was unanimously rejecting the Kerry terms, because ministers did not want to openly demonstrate their horror at the secretary’s offer, Channel 2 reported on Saturday night. Instead, word of the decision was allowed to leak out.
Said Erdan, in a Saturday evening interview on Channel 2: “We will not end this operation and leave Gaza until the tunnels are dealt with.” Israel is also intent on drastically degrading Hamas’s terrorist infrastructure, he said. “The international community needs to understand that we are very open to the economic rehabilitation of Gaza” once the conflict is over, but that if Hamas remained in control of Gaza, and continued to build rockets and tunnels, Israel “won’t be able to tolerate that.”
Saturday’s “humanitarian truce” in Gaza, in contrast to the Kerry ceasefire terms, was regarded as meeting Israel’s interests, government sources said. Israel was able to continue work on demolishing the tunnels, they noted.
That's why Kerry left empty-handed and that's why EVERYONE is pissed off at Kerry! In other words, Hamas can keep their tunnels and Israel does not get any insurances that Hamas will destroy those tunnels.
SenseNotSoCommon
Every shrill, pimpled jihadist can now say with utter conviction, "I told you so."
None of us can wash our hands of this.
Oyajid
@Bass4Funk,
According to you, the French resistance during 2nd world war, terrorist or not? I guess we're missing a major point here, if you go back in history, what's happening now is technically an occupation. I think it's a bit far fetched to say that since Gazaouis vote for HAMAS they don't deserve freedom. I believe that Israel has a right to exist, together with Palestinian state but when you have 11 Billions dollar worth of Military, a nuclear arsenal and justify killing 1000+ people because you feel threatened by it is a joke...
Mike O'Brien
Ah, so we are back to the argument that because Israel has a strong competent military it should let Hamas do whatever it wants and not respond.
horizon360
Mike O'Brien wrote: |Ah, so we are back to the argument that because Israel has a strong competent military it should let Hamas do whatever it wants and not respond.|
No. It's more like an argument about whether if another man screws your wife you should kill his kids and then not be charged with murder.
slumdog
You have to be kidding. Most of your posts focus almost exclusively on things that happened 100 years ago. Suddenly talking about the past is taboo.
You keep repeating the same things. So, I will keep repeating my response. All Israeli citizens, not matter what their religion, have the right to vote in Israel. Israeli Arabs are members of the Israeli government, are government workers, and public school teachers. There is absolutely no Arab country in the middle east where this is true of Jews. None.
Incorrect, huh? You know what incorrect means, right? It means you can now prove that the majority of both sides do not want peace. I know for a fact that the majority of both sides want peace. The majority of the world's people in general want peace. What is your proof they do not? What is your proof, not opinion mind you, that the majority of Israelis do not want peace?
While Israel occupies the occupied territories, the IDF will protect the Israelis that are there. However, a peace deal will remove the settlers, as peace deals and pullouts have removed them in Sinai and Gaza. By the way, the settlers may cheer when the IDF has to go in, but the majority of Israelis would prefer not to have anything to do with the occupied territories, that includes having to go in to protect the settlers. That is why the majority of Israelis were for peace talks in 2000 and 2001 and the majority of Israelis were for the Gaza pullout, as well.
I have studied the history much more deeply than you have. Both sides have been violent, both sides violate agreements, and the majority of both sides just want to live in peace. It is not I that is in denial. I can see that both sides are at fault and that both sides need to get together and make peace. Your attempt to claim it is only one side reveals that it is actually you that is in denial.
? Now, you consider wanting non-violent leaders to be desperate and ridiculous? How sad for you.
? Speaking of ridiculous. Hamas are the actual elected leaders of the Palestinians. They are not a fringe group. They are the leaders of Gaza. They are not non-violent. They are decidedly violent. Any reason why you choose to ignore the fact that the leaders of the Palestinians are extremely violent and have clearly stated that they never want peace with Israel? Hamas are the elected leaders the Palestinians and they are not non-violent. This is not me tying them to anything. It is Hamas and their own policies. Can you see the difference?
Oyajid
Nice selective quoting Mike, the point that you seem to miss is the following one:
if you brand an organization that defends itself against occupation and is widely supported by bystanders of said occupied territories a terrorist organization (which by the way is again a random western based label applied) a terrorist organization, well then france world war 2 resistance is a terrorist organization no? I dont understand that when Israel bomb a hospital, and a UN school saying it has (unverifiable) intel that terrorist have stored weapons (of mass education!) which then gets contradicted by UN reports, they dont get branded terrorists or occupation force, its a legit military organization... I dont get it but maybe i am not smart enoughslumdog
Ummmm. ..Yes, that was my point. Hamas are the leaders of the Palestinians and they do not practice non-violence. My point is that they should in the way that King and Ghandi did. You have stated you support Hamas' violence as a means to an end and that end should be the end of Israel. I disagree with both of your points in this regard.
Oyajid
@slumdog
You are correct seeking peace is the right way but see when Palestinians get their schools and hospitals bombed, the US refuels Israel...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/11002096/Gaza-conflict-Israel-calls-up-16000-more-reservists-as-US-supplies-army-with-ammunition.html
How can they trust the west to do the right thing? How to be sure they won't get screwed again, thats the ehole point I guess.
slumdog
Oyajid,
It seems that it is possible that both sides have been bombing the schools. The only solution is to talk to each other. To not do so, is to keep repeating the same thing every couple of years as they have been doing. This helps no one and really hurts the Palestinians, especially Gazans.
yabits,
You keep repeating this error and I keep correcting it. The US, EU, Russia and the UN, in addition to Israel, put sanctions on Hamas because of their actions. Hamas broke many of the arrangements that were agreed to between the PLA, Egypt and Israel. Feel free to continue to ignore this, but forgive the rest of us if we actually want to focus on what happened and not personal opinions.
? Israel has one man; one vote. Why do you insist on confusing Israel and the Occupied Territories? The Occupied Territories are not annexed and are not part of the State of Israelis. The residents of the Occupied Territories are not Israelis. You are suggesting that Israel should absorb people from outside of Israel and that will not happen. Just as the US will not suddenly allow anyone who wants to live there to come in unfettered. It is reasonable for Israel to want to control its immigration just as any country does. Your suggestion of absorbing people from outside Israel is what would destroy Israel and it is an unreasonable suggestion.
No. It happened. How many settlers are in Gaza now? How many are in Sinai. How many IDF soldiers are in southern Lebanon now? Zero. That is how many will be in the future state of Palestine. Zero. History is on my side in this. Olmert was planning on doing the same with the West Bank before he got voted out.
I agree. That is why those of us who support a peaceful two state solution stand on the right side of history and the future will bear this out. It will happen and you will have to admit you were wrong.
First, if it is so accurate, you should be able to prove it. Second, being pro-Israel does not equal being a 'semite'. The comment suggested that the media was controlled by 'semites'. This is a racist statement and it adds no useful information to the discussion.
Why not? The devil is in the details. Suggesting a racial group has control of the media is a racist statement. In this case, it is also inaccurate. I am absolutely amazed that you support this type of speech.
Stay classy.
The media reports plenty on both sides. I read them in the media. I see them on CNN and BBC. You and the other poster are suggesting it is merely because the media are Jewish. That is racist.
I see these images daily in the media and it has absolutely nothing to do with what the religion of the media that shows me is.
A true view of history shows both sides have lied, cheated, terrorized and killed and received aid while doing so. Both sides. I find it ironic that you are okay with people suggesting the media is controlled by Jews and also only blame Israel for a situation that both clearly contribute to. Actually, more than ironic, it is very telling.
slumdog
Stuart,
yabits specifically supports Hamas and the violence that Hamas has done, including suicide bombing apparently. He excuses Hamas violence quite frequently. As to the test, I was having trouble posting anything for a while. It seems to be fixed now.
As to the Israeli draft, Israel does not have a choice. It is a smail country with a small population. Hopefully, someday there will be a time when there is peace and less soldiers on all sides will be needed.
yabits,
Always? Even when the statement is anti-Semitic? Suggesting that the media is controlled by Jews is a racist statement. If you were to replace it with any other ethnic group, you would find it unacceptable. Amazing you do not in this case. You can disagree with a person's opinion, but that disagreement should have nothing to do with their race or ethnicity. Solely connecting it to race or ethnicity is racism in its purest form.
Stay classy.
? Again, you choose to ignore reality. Israel pulled it settlers out of Gaza and Sinai. There were roads and infrastructures there, too. They are there in the Occupied Territories until a time when a deal is made. Then, those too will be removed. You see, you keep attempting to claim Israel will never remove settlers when they are already done so. So you are futilely attempting to argue with history and facts on the ground. Now, the ground that blindly hates Israel may fall for this, but the astute reader will notice that Israel has traded land for peace and has dragged settlers violently in many cases from territories it once occupied. So, while you guess incorrectly, I refer to actual actions and history. You agreed that Rabin was working for peace when he was killed. You know for a fact that Barak was working for peace. You know they had the support of most Israelis to do so.
Newsflash: Israel is a democracy with one vote for one person. This is not comparable to South Africa at all. South Africa was one big country which, like the US did, had racist laws in its country. The Occupied Territories are not recognized as being part of Israel. The residents of those territories are not Israelis.
Please stop repeating half-truths about life for Jews in Arab countries. They were second class, or lower, citizens in their own countries. It was not a situation that would be acceptable today. You just got over talking about how bad South Africa was and then you suggest Jews living under similar conditions in Arab countries had it good. Please.
Really? Then how do you explain all those Israeli Arabs living in Israel as Israeli citizens? How many Jews were living in the West Bank after 1948?
Jordan and Egypt held the West Bank and Gaza respectively from 1948 to 1967 and never once considered giving the land to the Palestinians. It was only after Israel captured the land that such talk began. Since then, Israel has entered talks with the Palestinians to attempt to give them those lands in return for peace. This was never discussed before Israel captured the lands. So, I would suggest it was more the surrounding Arab countries that seemed to have wanted to erase Palestinians, not Israel.
This statement from you strikes me as quite disingenuous when you are already on record as having admitted that you know Rabin was working for peace with the Palestinians. You know Rabin was a Zionist. So, why would you claim something you know to be patently false?
If Hamas were willing to change their spots and make peace as former Irgun member Begin did, then this would have a point. Right now, no such Hamas exists.
Both Begin and Shamir ended up entering negotiations. Begin made peace with Israel and Shamir negotiated in Oslo. Hamas has indicated that they will never do so. I hope they change their minds and do do so. Today's terrorist is often tomorrow's hero. Ironic, yes. But, true. I would have no problem with a Hamas that change their spots and decided to go into negotiations with Israel and would fault anyone who did.
Here again, you seem to be confused between opinion and fact. Both sides undoubtably killed civilians. However, I doubt there is anyone who can state which side was first. Just continually posting someone's opinions, often very bias ones at that, does not equal fact.
slumdog
Stuart,
I understood your comment just fine and I am not avoiding anything. Here it is again is your comment for you:
yabits is one and he is from the US. You said no one has said that and you said no one western has said that and you were mistaken. The US is a western country. He has suggested on several occasions that Hamas violence is justified in its violent response. That was the subject of your comment and that is my response. I did not change anything.
Yes, what do you find so strange about that? They need as many people as possible to serve in the army. That is also why they have the reserve system in which Israelis are required to put in a few weeks a year even after they do their service. If you have a point, could you make it without being so crytic?
Because I could not post until I deleted my Java cache. What does this have to do with anything?
yabits,
It is a big thing. Hamas are the elected leaders of the Palestinians.
Because people will rightfully acknowledge their are nuts in Israel and that there are nutty political parties in Israel. However, the actual leaders of Israel have recognized the right of a Palestinian state to exist. Israel prime ministers, including Rabin who lost his life working with Arafat for peace, acknowledge Palestine's right to exist. Even Netanyahu has done so, although he is not very clear about what kind of state he is talking about. Still, Israeli prime ministers time and time again have talked about the right of a Palestinian state ot exist in the Occupied Territories. Hamas has never done so and Hamas is not a fringe group. They are the elected leaders of the Palestinians and they block any and all attempts to negotiate for a peaceful two state solution.
slumdog
Yeah, SenseNotSoCommon,
The ancient books were all pretty much full of a lot of blood lust. It is almost as if they could see the future of the region as well.
Stuart,
I just realized. I did answer your question about my test post in my first response to you this evening. Didn't you notice it?
Mike O'Brien
No horizon360, it is more like about when another man tries to kill your wife and kids and brother and his wife and kids etc., do you have the right to try and kill him even if he uses his own children as human shields to protect his cowardly a$$.
Yes they were. What of it?
See we can agree on some things.
Wolfpack
@yabits:
So I take it you agree with Iran's former president.
You do realize the UN created the state of Israel? In 1947 the UN proposed to create two states; the Jews accepted the plan but the Arabs did not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
In 1948 the Jews declared their state and the UN validated it. The state of Palestine was sitting there for the taking but they instead declared war on Israel. That is pretty much the state of things since then. Both Arabs and Jews have lived in the region for thousands of years. The Arabs will not accept the presence of Jews out of religious and racial/ethnic hatred.
There are around 1.6 million Arabs/Palestinians living in Israel. The Jews are perfectly happy having them live among them. Don't believe me? Take a minute and Google it yourself.
I wonder where all of this is coming from? The Jews were willing to go along with a Palestinian state as long ago as 1947 (see link above). And as recently as the Clinton administration they endorsed it until Arafat refused the deal. Are you willfully avoiding historical fact for the sake of argument?
I listened to the video of Gideon Levy. It was interesting to hear his point of view. He is obviously very passionate in his criticisms of the Israeli government. He mentioned that 23 Israeli pilots refused to participate in a 2003 action against Hamas. I intend to see if I can find independent verification of that. Given the video is from a Leftist organization I will take it with a grain of salt.
yabits
My opinions come from my own study and research, mainly from Israeli sources, not from Iran. As I said in another post, if true democracy would abolish the Zionist state, the problem is not with democracy but with the state.
This is not accurate on several aspects, but let me ask you: If you were an Arab in 1947, why would you have accepted this? First of all, Arabs outnumbered Jews by roughly a 2 to 1 margin in 1947.(At the time of the Balfour Declaration it was around 8 or 9 to 1) Secondly, the bulk of Jewish immigration that increased their numbers was illegal. How do you feel about illegal immigration? Thirdly, the UN gave the smaller population more than half of the land? Honestly, as an Arab, why would you accept that?
Who in the U.N. was representing Arab interests. We can sympathize with the plight of the Jews during WWII, but the Arabs didn't have anything to do with the Holocaust and yet they were being asked to give up over half of their land -- land they had held and worked on for centuries, and shed blood for during the Crusades -- with no compensation whatsoever. How would you feel about a U.N. mandate that took away your land with no compensation? I'm sure you'd hate it if the U.N. tried to do it to you.
As for Israel "accepting" it, you need to read history. The Zionists are recorded as accepting certain points of the U.N. mandate, but not all. Ben Gurion cautioned the hard-liners to bide their time. Make a show of accepting it, then when the time is right, launch a war of ethnic cleansing to acquire additional lands.
This is not accurate. These over-simplifications are designed to try to easily classify one side as the good guy and one as the bad guy. For example, under the U.N. mandate, the Jewish and Arab sections of Palestine were supposed to share a common infrastructure for trade, commerce, postal union, etc. During the British mandate, which expired in 1947, much of the infrastructure and equipment was handed over to the Jewish section. According to U.N. observers, the Zionists made no attempts whatsoever to set up the common infrastructure. The Zionists knew already they would not need to do this as they were about to make one of the most egregious land grabs and ethnic cleansing operations in the history of the region.
Please wake up. Refer to Miko Peled, a former IDF officer and son of an Israeli IDF general during the six-day war. You probably believe the 6-day war was forced on the Israelis. Think again. The IDF did not look out and see a threat; they saw a tremendous opportunity. The truth of this -- via command and control communications -- was being listened to by a US navy ship, the USS Liberty. Take a look at what Israel did to it. You've been played for a sucker.
sfjp330
In 1947, before any Arab nation invaded Israel, the Zionist armies had already made incursions into the part of Palestine designated for the Arabs. Have you not heard of the Nakba? Around 750K Palestinians were driven out by fear for their survival. There were a number of high profile massacres of Palestinians by Jewish terrorist groups. Today, the ethnic cleansing is much more subtle, but real nonetheless. Non-Jewish homes are routinely demolished by the IDF. Where can the Palestinians in these homes go? Many are being forced to emigrate. And That is what the Likud and other racist Israeli parties depend on to end the Palestinian dream of a viable state. And how do you defend Jewish only colonies on the remaining 22 per cent of historic Palestine that is left for a Palestinian state?
yabits
According to Miko Peled, whose father and mother lived in Jerusalem in 1947 and personally witnessed the Zionist pogram on the local Arab population, the Hagganah had a "Library division" whose specific duty was to identify and steal the rare books out of the homes of the Arab families they had driven out. Most of this rare book collection, according to Peled, is now part of the Hebrew University Library. Also looted were expensive carpets and artwork.
Sound familiar? The world didn't protect or defend them and their families from the Nazis, so they were going to do the same on whomever they could. All the while telling the world that the new Jewish state would be a light to all nations.
sfjp330
@yabits
Zionist expulsion of the Palestinians is a compelling evidence of that collective crime against a nation and its homeland that took place less than seventy years ago. The Palestinian refugees were never allowed to return by Israel and their lands, properties, homes, institutions, and every bit of their national existence was either stolen or destroyed by the new Jewish state, without giving them choice or compensation. This is one of the most massive acts of theft of a homeland in the 20th century. If you look at the facts and statistics of oppression and dispossession of the Palestinians there by the Israeli occupation, including the illegal policy of colonization in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and the dozens of laws and military orders favoring Jewish settlers and discriminating against Palestinians should leave no doubt that Israel is running an apartheid system.
Wolfpack
The Palestinians did not have a state - so yes, I would have accepted it. The region was controlled by the Ottoman's for hundreds of years until WW I and the British until 1948. What do they have now? Nothing. They rejected the state that was handed to them on a silver platter because they wanted it all. The surrounding Arab countries will not allow them to immigrate and assimilate so they have been forced to live in slums. A little more than a decade ago the Palestinians were given another chance at having their own state, but they inexplicably said no. In their eyes it's all or nothing - that attitude is why they voted for a terrorist group to run the government of Gaza after the Israeli's unilaterally withdrew.
Illegal according to who? The British were abandoning their colony and turning it over to the UN. Did the Brits consider it illegal? The UN certainly did not because they created the state of Israel and to it over to them to administer.
I do not know exactly how the UN came up with the borders. All I know is that the Palestinians have turned down at least two golden opportunities to have a state and the turned it down both times. It makes so sense.
Yes, probably so. But your problem is with the UN not the Israeli's. Perhaps the Palestinians can receive compensation from the UN - they are the one's responsible. But as long as the Palestinians are fighting a terrorist war in their all or nothing jihad to wipe the Jewish state off the face of the map, they will not even be able to make a case for compensation for anything.
So in other words they got greedy; and now they have nothing.
The side that believes in the use of terrorism, that rejected two opportunities to get the state they claim they wanted, and the side that launches indiscriminate rocket attacks at civilians and uses their own helpless civilians to protect their weapons is the bad guy.
I will "wake up" once the Palestinians kick out Hamas, when they accept victory and take a two state deal, when Hamas stops digging tunnels so they can kill Israeli civilians, when they stop lobbing rockets at civilians, and when they demilitarized the West Bank and Gaza. At that time if the Israeli's continue to build settlements and destroy Palestinian buildings I will come down against them.
yabits
It's clear you have no clue about life of the Palestinian under the last 3-4 centuries of Ottoman rule. There were very few Turks and the Arabs ran their own affairs. They had deeds to their lands and representatives in the local government. Nobody here seriously believes you when you claim you would have given that all up for an unknown and no compensation. What right did European Jews have to the land?
You mean you don't know? Yes, the British considered it illegal. They caught and deported many. I hope you remember Timothy McVeigh. British enforcement of immigration rules is one of the main causes of the terrorist Irgun bombing of the King David Hotel, killing nearly a hundred. Imagine McVeigh becoming president; Menachem Begin was a top officer in the terrorist Irgun and took part in planning the hotel bombing.
Perhaps you should do some study.
I would argue that my immediate problem is with the thief who stole my land and the murderers who killed my family, with the U.N. secondary. Keep in mind that in 1947, the Palestinian Arab population had to military whatsoever. The Jews had a highly trained force of around 50,000. The Arabs were no match for them, and no threat to them.
It was the Jews who violated the partition's borders and started attacking Arab citizens first. Take the town of Jaffa -- on the Mediterranean Sea. Before 1947, it was home to over 120,000 Arabs and a few Jews and was on the Arab side of the partition. The Zionists came in and started to execute civilians to get the population to leave. Within two weeks, there were less than 5,000 Arabs remaining. Jaffa today is Tel Aviv.
The Zionists got greedy and now they have nearly everything, taken by force. The U.N. sent emissaries to try to maintain the partition boundaries. Israeli terrorist groups threatened them and assassinated one of them, a Swede. Again, it was the Zionists who had the military, not the Arab Palestinians.
No doubt, and, like the apartheid regime, it will fall.
horizon360
What Yabits wrote, bears repeating: || I would argue that my immediate problem is with the thief who stole my land and the murderers who killed my family, with the U.N. secondary. Keep in mind that in 1947, the Palestinian Arab population had no military whatsoever. The Jews had a highly trained force of around 50,000. The Arabs were no match for them, and no threat to them. || It was the Jews who violated the partition's borders and started attacking Arab citizens first. Take the town of Jaffa -- on the Mediterranean Sea. Before 1947, it was home to over 120,000 Arabs and a few Jews and was on the Arab side of the partition. The Zionists came in and started to execute civilians to get the population to leave. Within two weeks, there were less than 5,000 Arabs remaining. Jaffa today is Tel Aviv. ||
There were a small number of Jewish communities (families) in Jaffa prior to 1947 that had been in place for some generations. They were a minority group (about 1%) but had never been collectively dispossessed of their private land holdings or ever violently oppressed by the majority Moslem populations. There was also a second even smaller Jewish community located north of Jaffa in Tel Aviv (a place whose early origins are traceable to the arrival of Jewish settlers from around 1900). In 1947, following the withdrawal of the British Occupation Forces the Irgun and Haganah militias (made up of Jewish Europeans who entered Palestine in armed defiance of British prohibitions) massacred and scattered the arab populations of Jaffa, stole their lands and systematically destroyed all their public and private property records. Today beneath every public park in modern Tel Aviv old arab cemeteries are buried. If you wish to research these events responsibly you must use resources other than Wikipedia.
Stuart hayward
SlumDog: yabits NERVER said (that violence was the key to Palestinian statehood), thats where are discussion started. Remember another poster said (he was supprised by the number of westerners who think violence is the key to Palestinian statehood). You've changed the content of those words and now you're saying (he "suggest" violent actions) You also "suggest" I support the firing of rockets into isral, obviously you didn't actually read my comments.
yabits
But it is obvious that violence was and is key to Israeli statehood. Isn't it? After all these decades. Even Israeli historians such as Benny Morris, whom the former head of the United Jewish Congress says "wrote the bible" on the early days of the founding, fully admit that the Zionists attacked first, with orders to execute civilians to force them to leave their homes.
Lined them up and shot them down. Israel had to get them to leave. You can't steal land with hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living on it and then later try to pass yourself off as a democracy. You have to concoct a Big Lie like it was actually the Arab countries telling the all the Palestinians to leave their homes and the people blindly obeying them.
Stuart hayward
Yabits: I agree but this endless cycle of violence must come to an end! If either Israel or Palestine would commit to stopping all violent actions and reactions, it's my belief that the world would see the aggressor for who they really are and truly stand up for whoever the pacifist state is. It has to start somewhere, how many times can they repeat the same mistakes and not realize their actions are NOT a solution.
Tamarama
Mike O'Brien
Yes. But voter participation was 75%, meaning the actual number of people that voted for them was around 32%.
Mike O'Brien
And a reasonable assumption would be that those 75% represent how the total population would have voted. A poll that asked 75% of the population would have a 0.1% error at 99% confidence.
Wolfpack
I agree about the issue of property ownership. Arabs, Jews and others owned land under the Ottoman's. But they did not govern themselves - the Ottoman's governed them. Therefore there was no Palestinian state.
So what you are saying is that the region was a colony. The area is like any of the colonies created by the Europeans during the colonial era.
OK - but it's now been nearly 70 years that the Palestinians have been dealing with the "immediate" problem. The solution to the problem that they have come up with - terrorism and wiping Israel off the map - has only brought Palestinians misery. The immediate solution has not worked. How about changing tactics? Palestinians can try peace and negotiation instead.
They had a forces that clashed with Jews while the British still controlled the territory. They had four armies after the UN created the Israel and Palestine states. Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, and Iraq (also troops from Jordan and Saudi Arabia). They declared war on Israel and were defeated in the war.
The Arabs had four full armies. https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war
What independent resources do you recommend?
Well if the Palestinians will not negotiate and attack Israel along with four allied armies, then the only way to stop violence is with violence.
Tamarama
No. They chose not to vote. Therefore you can't assume anything about their voting preferences.
horizon360
Wolfpack wrote: 'What independent resources do you recommend' in response to horizon360 ||If you wish to research these events responsibly you must use resources other than Wikipedia.||
It is not clear what you mean by "independent" but nevertheless, in answer to your question, original (primary and or contemporaneous) documents, or secondary works by identifiable authors are recommended (although not necessarily authoritative). If you give blind credence to what you read in Wikipedia about controversial matters without even knowing who the authors are then you are naive, gullible and simple minded. Just imagine if you were defending your Ph.D. dissertation on a topic related to middle eastern history before a faculty panel of Oxford University historians and the sources you cite to support your original thesis are entirely restricted to quotes from Wikipedia articles. In doing so you would have failed completely to establish yourself as an independent scholar and the University would not grant your Ph.D. (although you would certainly be long remembered for levity). In fact if you were to cite Wikipedia even once to defend your original ideas then the result would be the same. The first obvious objectivity problem with most Wikipedia content on sensitive political matters is bias by selective omission or misrepresentations of fact, but many pieces concerning Israel and other topics pertaining to Middle East politics and history are just plain unhinged (fact-averse) propaganda.
slumdog
stuart,
By now you must understand that yabits is not for a peaceful two state solution. He has specifically stated he is against it. He specifically has stated that he sees no reason for Hamas to negotiate with Israel for peace. He has attempted to explain away suicide bombings by Hamas as the "acts of a desperate people" , seemingly purposefully forgetting about the fact that Hamas is completely unwilling to negotiate with Israel for peace. In fact, yabits agrees with Hamas' position. I believe in a two state peaceful solution. yabits, does not.
No, our discussion started when you wrote no one in this discussion who feels that violence is the key to Palestinian statehoood. Well, one does. yabits does. He defends this with the example of other countries, but make no mistake, he is defending this position.
In my second comment, I added the word 'suggests'. I did not mean, it was a hint. I was saying it is his suggestion, his advice for Palestinians. However, if you do not like the word, remove it. My meaning is the same either way. He sees no other solution between the two sides but violence and rejects the idea of negotiations. Am I clearer now?
I honestly do not remember 'suggesting' or saying this. Could you point out where and when I said this? Then, let's discuss it.
yabits
You need to study that more. Nowhere in the link is "full" mentioned. The Arab forces from Lebanon and Syria were ragtag, ill-equipped, poorly trained and poorly motivated. Jordan, Iraq and Saudis were nothing. Egypt was closest to having a real army, but they were ill-equipped and not prepared for war. On the other hand the Jewish agency had already built weapons-manufacturing facilities and were building guns, bullets, shells, etc. The Arabs had nothing comparable. Note that your own link described the Jewish objectives from Day 1: Grab more land.
I am not one who believes the good can co-exist with evil. At least not peacefully. There is no problem with real Jews and devout Muslims living side by side in one state. That was the history of Palestine before the Zionists arrived. When a government sends agents to a European country to torture and make a cripple out of a devout rabbi of their own alleged faith, what is the limit of their evil?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIT9sLz29iQ
Wolfpack
@horizon360
I use multiple sources but instead of disputing the source, try addressing the content of the argument. If my references are incorrect then provide a better independent reference to counter my argument.
How about you imagine discussing a controversial topic on a news website and a person with an opposing viewpoint argues that every opinion must be backed up by the kind of research necessary to defend a Ph.D. dissertation. That would of course be ridiculous. If only people with that sort of expertise in an infinite number of subjects would result in very little discussion on this forum. If you dispute the facts, for example that the UN created two states in 1948 and the Palestinians rejected their own state and along with four Arab armies waged war on the newly formed state of Israel and were defeated, then feel free to bring forth your research. Arguing my sources without providing any of your own to dispute mine gives the appearance that you are unable to sustain your argument so you are changing the subject.
I have been learning new things about the Palestinian Israeli conflict from the opinions of those here that I both agree and disagree with. No one learns anything if we change the subject.
Wolfpack
@horizon360
I use multiple sources but instead of disputing the source, try addressing the content of the argument. If my references are incorrect then provide a better independent reference to counter my argument.
How about you imagine discussing a controversial topic on a news website and a person with an opposing viewpoint argues that every opinion must be backed up by the kind of research necessary to defend a Ph.D. dissertation. That would of course be ridiculous. If only people with that sort of expertise in an infinite number of subjects would result in very little discussion on this forum. If you dispute the facts, for example that the UN created two states in 1948 and the Palestinians rejected their own state and along with four Arab armies waged war on the newly formed state of Israel and were defeated, then feel free to bring forth your research. Arguing my sources without providing any of your own to dispute mine gives the appearance that you are unable to sustain your argument so you are changing the subject.
I have been learning new things about the Palestinian Israeli conflict from the opinions of those here that I both agree and disagree with. No one learns anything if we change the subject.
Mike O'Brien
Therefore you can't assume anything about their voting preferences.
No actually you can make reasonable assumptions about their preferences. That is what the whole basis behind polling is.
kinniku
The question is simple. Do you believe in a peaceful two state solution? I do. You play word games, but I see through them. You do not believe in a peaceful two state solution. Both sides have a majority of good people that deserve to live in peace. I want that. You do not. That is the difference here, plain and simple. I think Stuart probably gets my point now.
Oh, you love to post non-descript youtube videos. In response to the one above that you posted, here is one for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPpBW07rhiY
The answer is clear. The solution is a peaceful two state solution. I know you are against this. But, it wil happen anyway.
horizon360
Wolfpack wrote: |If you dispute (the facts), for example that the UN created two states in 1948 and the Palestinians rejected their own state and along with four Arab armies waged war on the newly formed state of Israel and were defeated...(then reply)|
OK. Of course Palestinian populations (which were never represented in their entirety) objected to an unwanted and restrictive state being created for them by the U.N. out of a partial section of the greater lands which they already occupied under historically recognized property rights and by power of simple possession for many generations. No one disputes this. Of course the Zionist movement earnestly accepted a state on lands which they wanted to occupy and had lobbied for at the highest levels of the British and American governments for years as a place for a Jewish homeland. [Ugandan colonial territory had also been offered by Britain for the same purposes but that offer was ultimately rejected in 1905.] Yes there was war between Israel and all of its neighboring states after which the very UN organization by whose authority the State of Israel came into existence by international law explicitly condemned any territorial expansion by Israel beyond what was agreed in granting statehood. By failing to respect those original UN designated territorial boundaries Israel launched itself into all the subsequent conflicts which have consumed it ever since. That the Zionist movement had designs on an expansionist agenda in Palestine from the very outset has never been disputed. Would you like to try?
Asim Munawar
Wow !!! I am really amazed whenever I read comments related to an article about Palestine conflict. Though many of the readers are aware of the exact situation some are so biased towards Israel that I laugh when they try to take side with Israel. For those readers please look at the changing map of the Palestine in last 50 years. How can anyone turn a blind eye to the way Israel have pushed the local Palestinian population in small pockets and occupied their country. Its Palestinians who are defending themselves and Israel is the occupier.
I really feel pity for someone who is blind, deaf, biased or ignorant enough to not understand this simple fact.
Stuart hayward
Kinniku: I am for a peaceful two state solution but there is nothing easy about it. Firstly, the Israeli government is totally apposed to this idea. Plus, it not a solution to the extremist actions committed by both sides nor does it guarantee peace. As for a play on words, you can ALSO point to SlumDog, he continues to say Yabits has said something he has not and changes the content or subject of what was said. Being that this is your only comment to me, I'm not sure of your point, hopefully it is that we both agree each side deserves to live in peace!
slumdog
? Why are you mentioning me in other posts, but you do not respond directly to me? yabits says right above that he is not for a peaceful two state solution. He agrees with Hamas' solution, which is the violent one. Hamas believes that they will take over Israel and destroy it with violence. yabits agrees with Hamas. He is very specific in denouncing the peaceful two state solution. He does not deny what I say. He supports it. Haven't you noticed yabits is not denying it?
If you are for a peaceful two state solution as you say above, we are in agreement. Netanyahu has made statements saying he is for such a solution. Although the conditions he puts on it are rather unrealistic and should not even be talked about outside of negotiations anyway. Hamas is totalling against such a solution. Totally. yabits agrees with Hamas.
This is not a play on words. This is what yabits has been saying for the past month or so. yabits is not a child, if he wanted to deny what I am saying he could have done so in any of the posts above. He does not because I am truthfully describing his views of the conflict.
Again, I honestly do not remember 'suggesting' or saying this. Could you point out where and when I said this? Then, let's discuss it. If there is a post that I misunderstood and you point it out to me, I would be happy to apologize.
Stuart hayward
SlumDog: I did reply back to you on each subject of our debate but it was deleted by JT. I agree with everything you are saying about Yabits (in your last post) but that is NOT stating violence Is the key to Palestinian statehood! Why do you bring up Netanyahu, if his conditions are unrealistic? That in itself is proof he doesn't really want a two state solution, if he did there would be some room for compromise. Lastly, I though you only suggested, do I support firing rockets into Israel but I know longer see that comment so either it was removed or I was mistaken. If I was mistaken, I truly apologize!
Wolfpack
@horizon360
Well yes, that's easy. The Israeli's take possession of Palestinian territory because Palestinians continually use their territory to stage attacks on Israel. When one side attacks another and they are defeated in battle are you surprised that they the side that started the hostilities would pay a price? For the Palestinians the price was control over parts of their territory. The Palestinians should wise up and stop attacking a superior foe.
Regardless, to prove your point wrong; despite the fact that Gaza was used to stage attacks on Israel in the past, Israel unilaterally withdraw from Gaza in 2005. Israeli dismantled all of the Jewish settlements in Gaza and removed everyone. Those settlers that refused to leave were removed by force by Israeli authorities and their homes were destroyed. If the Israeli's wanted Palestinian lands so badly why would they voluntarily withdraw? So now it is many years later and what are that Palestinians doing? They are using Gaza to stage attacks against Israel using indiscriminate rocket barrages and terrorist attacks using tunnels dug into Israel proper.
The Palestinians just want Israel to go away.
Do you think Israel should be removed from the Middle East- by force if necessary?
@Asim
Stop attacking Israel and the Palestinians will get their UN mandated territory back. Until they stop terrorizing the Israeli's it is hard for many people to blame the Israeli's for doing all they can to protect themselves. If my country was in a similar situation where a nearby people terrorized and attacked relentlessly decade after decade you would likely see the same kind of response as you now see from Israel. Stop attacking and negotiate a peaceful solution. The Palestinian peoples misery will only continue until they do.
yabits
Yes, this can be reasonably disputed with facts and common sense. See if you can grasp this: Nobody can just flip a switch and create two states on a given date. Doesn't that make sense? I hope so, because the U.N. plan provided a transitional period of two years after the plan's start date (until September of 1949) for the two nations to, for lack of a better word, get their acts together. This is one of the many parts of the plan that the Jewish Agency totally rejected, just as the Arabs rejected the way the lands were partitioned.
The Zionists were nearly unanimous in their opposition to an independent Arab state. You should examine very carefully what they did from the time the British Mandate expired in 1947 and the U.N. plan went into effect in May of 1948. This is before these supposed "full" armies of the Arabs came to attack them. From the first, the Zionists rejected the concept of a "Palestinian Arab" and wanted the other Arab nations to take them in (as the Zionists expelled them). You will hear this same argument made today, even though Arabs have lived in Palestine for 2,000 years or more, and made up the majority of the population.
The key thing that the U.N. emphasized that would make the partition work was for the two sides to form a joint economic board that would implement a customs union, common currency system, and joint operation of railways, ports, airports and postal and telegraphic services. These arrangements would help to bring the two peoples of Palestine together and ensure cooperation.
The Jewish agency leader, Ben-Gurion, adamantly opposed this. (This was the first best chance at a two-state solution and it was the Zionists that opposed it -- long before any significant Arab hostility.) As the Israeli historian, Simha Flapan writes: "Ben-Gurion's resistance to a transition period was a function of his opposition to the very idea of a Palestinian state. This is clear not only from what he did, but what he failed to do. No such state could have been established without an economic union... Yet although the Jewish Agency was a highly organized body with proven ability in long-term planning, there is absolutely no evidence that it did anything to prepare for the economic union as stipulated by the United Nations."
Keep in mind that Zionist propaganda to the world was touting that a "Jewish state" would bring benefits to its Arab partner, but absolutely nothing was being done to make that happen. The U.S. Secretary of State at the time, George Marshall, noted that "in fact, the Jewish Agency proposals appear to be designed to establish economic separation. The Zionists were setting up its less-developed Arab partner for failure, in opposition to the U.N. plan, and contrary to its propaganda.
The first major Zionist ethnic cleansing operation came into effect with Plan Dalet ("Plan D") in March of 1948, before the U.N. plan took effect and before the Arab armies supposedly gathered to attack. Plan D was specifically designed to grab Arab lands and expel Arab citizens** before the start of the plan in May. In April for example, the terrorist Irgun launched an attack on the Arab city of Jaffa, deep into the proposed partition for the Arab state, killing many civilians and driving out nearly 120,000 Arab citizens. Forcing thousands of refugees on neighboring Arab countries is one reason they got riled up. (Jaffa, or what was left of it, later became Tel Aviv.)
The first-person evidence of how Zionist state goons brutally tortured and crippled an orthodox rabbi -- in his own home in Amsterdam -- is anything but nondescript. It fully reveals the nature of the evil being confronted.
Ali Khan
The whole of the humanity crying over the barbaric atrocities and heinous crimes of Israel, the humanity ends in Gaza, Israel did all the crimes possible on the earth, but you see no head of the state has the guts to criticize Israel neither the so called United Nations have the courage to do so, similarly the media houses can not criticize Israel or even can not highlight the atrocities on their front page. This is how the world goes here, you still expect justice and peace in the world where some support and justify the killing of children, the killing of innocent, the genocide of a nation and occupation of their land.
yabits
When it comes to moral authority, most heads of state and organizations are among the last ones to get it. Ordinary people have to get it first, and then change the leadership.
Recently, in the Israeli Knesset, one political leader -- part of the governing coalition -- made a speech in which she called for the extermination of all Palestinians. She especially wanted pregnant mothers targeted before they could give birth to what she called "serpents." (This is Judaism? Israel, a light to the nations?) And yet everyone will point to an Ahmadinejad or Hamas and completely give a pass to this political leader.
slumdog
Stuart,
I have no recollection of suggesting that about you, but I get the feeling are opinions of the situation are closer rather than farther away from each other. We both want peace. We both want a peaceful two state solution. I truly believe it will happen someday, but we need to have two brave leaders at the same time and we need to have Hamas on board, as well. Peace to you.
yabits,
Since when does one person with a nutty opinion represent a whole religion or a whole nation. She is obviously not the president of Israel, the prime minister of Israel or the head rabbi of Israel. Why would you attempt to claim some nut with nutty opinions represents all Jews or all Israelis? It is rather like suggesting David Duke represents all Americans or the whole USA or that nutty Hashimoto represents all Japanese or all of Japan. They don't and neither does this nut of a woman who you have neglected to mention the name of.
What is the name of the 'leader' you are talking about? It certainly is not the prime minister or the president. Ahmadinejad was the president of Iran, not the leader of some political fringe group. Hamas are the elected leaders of the Palestinians, not some political fringe group. The difference should be as clear and bright as the light of day.
Wolfpack
@yabits
No it does not make sense at all. The UN attempted to transition a European colony into two independent states. This exact same thing occurred for dozens of Middle Eastern, African, and island colonies all over the world following the end of the colonial era following WWII. Like all of the other newly created states the Palestinians could have accepted their state and moved forward from there.
If so, explain why Palestinians obliged them by refusing their own state after British rule ended and all other subsequent attempts made over many decades? Why did the Israelis unilaterally withdraw from Gaza a decade ago and forcibly dismantle and destroy their own settlements? Why did the Palestinians reject the Oslo Accords in which the Israeli's agreed to Palestinian self rule and the removal of settlements?
So you say that one guy Ben-Gurdon was against economic cooperation with the new state of Palestine and that is sufficient grounds for the Palestinian people reject their own state? That makes no logical sense. All I am hearing is that there are all of these nit-picky reasons for why the Palestinians have rejected their own state and no explanation why they did not make claim to the territory they are currently residing in as there homeland.
You seem to always have another reason to explain the unexplainable but never seem to have any answers in defense of the Palestinians irrational actions. Can you just admit that you support the end of the state of Israel?
Isn't the one and only reason the Palestinians and Arabs in general did not accept the UN deal after the British gave up their colony is because they do not accept a Jewish self ruled area anywhere in the Muslim world?
Hamas began this current battle in Gaza because they hate Jews and want to eliminate the Jewish state. Do you agree with Hamas's goals?
yabits
Ayelet Shaked is co-founder of the right wing, quasi-religious Jewish Home party. She is part of the ruling coalition with Likud and formerly ran Prime Minister Netanyahu's office.
What represents the nation? Well, supposing there was some party leader and former office manager to some "Western" prime minister who started calling for the death of all Jews in Israel? What represents the nation is the reaction to these words. Her words were posted in Hebrew on her Facebook page and, rather than collective outrage, she got thousands of "likes." (btw, I don't ever recall David Duke or Hashimoto ever calling for the deaths of an entire ethnic group.)
Let us keep in mind that the vast majority of Palestinians are non-violent and the militants among them are so puny and weak that the essential impact of the threat they represent is the occasional disruption of a comfortable lifestyle. And for that this political leader says they should all be exterminated? And she's still going to work on Monday, representing the people in the national government?
@wolfpack "So you say that one guy Ben-Gurdon was against economic cooperation with the new state of Palestine and that is sufficient grounds for the Palestinian people reject their own state?"
Correction: Ben-Gurion and the Zionists utterly rejected the formation of a Palestinian Arab state. Among the Zionist factions, only one small group, Hashomer Hatzier, of the MAPAM party acknowledged the right of Palestinian Arabs to self-determination.
If the Zionists supported the U.N. plan that was to take effect in May 1948, why did they reject the two-year transition provision? Why did they reject economic union?
Most importantly, why were Jewish Agency troops attacking (among other places) the Arab town of Jaffa -- deep in the Arab side of the partition -- more than a month before the plan was to take place? Why were they killing civilians and conducting ethnic cleansing such that a city of 120,000 was reduced to less than 5,000 within two weeks? Note that these details are coming from Israeli historians.
Wolfpack
@yabits:
Yes the majority of the Palestinians are not personally involved in the violence. However they are indirectly responsible for electing Hamas as their leaders. Hamas is violent and they are doing so with the consent of the people of Gaza. Hamas is able to launch thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israel. They are able to to dig miles and miles of tunnels into Israel for the purposes of killing or capturing civilians. Hamas is supported by Iran and Syria. They cause millions of people to hide themselves in bomb shelters - they are hardly puny and weak. Stop being ridiculous.
What does it matter? The Palestinians and all of the surrounding Arab states utterly rejected the formation of the state of Israel - yet they exist. The Palestinians didn't need the Israeli's permission to have their own state - that permission already existed based on the UN plan following the withdrawal of the British. The Palestinians rejected their state because by accepting the borders of Palestine they would be accepting the right of Israel to exist as a nation. That isn't Israel's fault - that is the fault of the Palestinian leadership. What is the point of blaming others for the actions of the Palestinian leadership?
Assuming it is true that Israel did not support the economic union with Palestine, why does it even matter? The Palestinians could still have had their own state and their own economy separate from the Israeli's. Your arguments make no sense - you are just making emotional arguments now.
What does this have to do with the Palestinians failure to accept their own state then or now based on any two state solution? Nothing of course - because Palestinians do not accept any two state solution.
Let me just ask one simple question yabits: Do you accept any two state solution that allows Israel to exist as a Jewish state? Can you answer that simple question?
slumdog
yabits,
I think I understand why you were so hesitant to name the Knesset member. Shaked has written an Op-Ed piece suggesting her words were misrepresented.
So, what I would love to know is if Hamas has written something similar? Are Hamas being misrepresented when we say they want to destroy Isreal? Nope. They still say it. It is in their charter. You know, an actual real charter, not an imagination charter such as the one you suggested existed for Zionists until now when you can no longer claim it since I posted the actual charter in which it says NONE of the things you suggested it did.
So, since she says she was misrepresented, none of what you wrote after what I quoted above is applicable to the situation. Unless you can show that is actually what she wrote and meant with proof and not heresay. You cannot do this. So, let's just chalk this up to the same kind of misrepresentation you have made of Israel and their history of making peace with countries such as Egypt and Jordan and the desire on the part of leaders such as Rabin and Barak to make a peaceful two state solution. Okay?
Flash Harry
A few of facts:
A founding Zionist movement, Bar-Giora, mission statement from 1907 read:
"In fire and blood did Judea fall; in blood and fire Judea shall rise."
As the last British ship left Palestine at the end of the British Mandate, the sailors on board could see the Arab homes in Acre on fire and under attack by Zionist Extremists - source BBC Radio 4 program 'Any Answers' most recent podcast at 10mins 50secs.
Hamas was pursuing the diplomatic path by forming a Unity Palestinian Government with Fatah. Israel's reaction to this diplomatic action has been to try to bomb Hamas out of existence.
slumdog
Here's a fun fact:
It is 2014. The present day World Jewish Congress has endorsed a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and is opposed to unilateral actions by either side.
Hamas was never and has never pursued a diplomatic path with Israel and states clearly that they do not intend to do so. 10 year non-renewable truces to be used to prepare for the destruction of Israel do not count.
Above, I neglected to post a link to the Shaked Op-Ed piece and so would like to do so now.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Exposing-militant-leftist-propaganda-363062
yabits
For a tiny strip of land under complete siege and blockade, tunnels can be used for a lot of things.
Because the British turned over bulk of the infrastructure -- ie port equipment, machinery, telegraphic equipment, etc. -- to the Jewish Agency. Note above where the U.N. said that the dual-state would not work without economic union. If the Palestinians were to agree to the partition, it means they were giving up land that they had lived on for centuries. In exchange, the U.N. emphasized that a common economic union with the more technically-advanced European Jews would enable them to reap significant benefits. The Jewish Agency rejected the partition plan along those lines, just as they rejected the two-year transition period, and just as they rejected what was supposed to be Arab land.
That is not how the U.N. plan was set up and presented to them. Palestinians for centuries had lived peacefully with Jewish communities. It was the Jewish Agency who did not want the necessary, promised economic union, and who did everything to undermine the existence a Palestinian state.
If it was true that the Jewish Agency accepted the partition plan, which did not take effect until May of 1948, why were they attacking the Arab city of Jaffa -- well on the Arab side of the partition -- in the months prior? (To be sure, they were also attacking and grabbing other lands on the Arab side as well.) How can you claim they accepted the partition plan when they were attacking Arabs and ethnically cleansing lands that were on the Arab side through the end of 1947 and early 1948?
LOL. Right. She quoted from an article by another Israeli writer, in which the incitement to kill all Palestinians was stated -- and her context had nothing to do with denouncing it. And just look at those words: "suggesting?" When choosing to quote from an inflammatory article where killing pregnant Palestinian women is endorsed, most can believe that an experienced political leader (and personal manager for the Prime Minister) would know exactly what she was doing. I have to laugh because the people so willing to make excuses for her can't see the forest for the trees.
Careful there, Flash Harry. Charters and mission statements that show the Zionists willing to incite violence are not accepted by the pro-Zionist crowd whose major strategy these days is to kill as many Arabs as they can.
slumdog
LOL? You did not even read the article apparently. There was no "incitement to kill all Palestinians" stated anywhere in the article I linked nor the writer that was quoted in the article. Your source of information lied and had to retract their lie.
Shaked made it very clear in her article,which I linked above, that she is completely against the killing of innocents on either side. Completely. Why do you feel the need to attempt to misrepresent an article that is linked above and that anyone can see for themselves? Are you actually depending on people not looking at the link and just believing what you write? Sorry, readers are more intelligent than that.
That is the problem with getting all your information cherry picked at anti-Zionist and anti-Jewish websites instead of actually reading the source information.
Except she did not do that, did she? She did not do this at all. What you wrote above is still there.
You wrote:
MK Shaked did not make a speech calling for the extermination of all Palestinians. She did not say anything about wanting pregnant mothers targeted. She did not call anyone 'serpants'. These are complete and utter untruths.
yabits, if you are going to just write your own fantasies instead of actual facts, you should really label them as such. Because they do not resemble reality in any way shape or form. These are the actual facts from her and her statements. Yours are rumor and innuendo. I think you will find that most reasonable people prefer facts rather than rumor, innuendo and misrepresentations of the truth based on raw and misplaced emotions.
? Again, this is 2014. The vast majority of Zionists, not matter there religion, are for a peaceful two state solution. The present day World Jewish Congress has endorsed a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and is opposed to unilateral actions by either side. Every major world Zionist organization has the same policies and statement. I see no major Zionist organizations calling for stategies to 'kiill as many Arabs as they can'. In fact, I mosty see you writing this. Hamas, on the other hand, has in their charter right now in 2014 the destruction of Israel as one of their goals. You have stated that you agree with this. This is you and Hamas in 2014. Every time I check something you write, I find it to be lacking in facts and acuracy. The problem is that you write so much stuff, that it would take decades to prove it all incorrect. However, your rate of accuracy is pretty bad so far as I have caught you in quite a few errors.
yabits
If Ms. Hillel admits she was mistaken, I will too. Ayelet Shaked did something purposefully and craftily to get a message across while counting on her defenders to maintain deniability.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why-im-on-the-brink-of-burning-my-israeli-passport-9600165.html
I know of few Zionists who want a just solution. They will use their version of the two-state solution just as they used the U.N. partition plan -- as a stepping stone, a transitional step, to get what they wanted.
Wolfpack
@yabits
Let me quote myself and ask you again;
sfjp330
@Wolfpack
It's clear that neither the one-state solution nor the two-state solution would resolve the region's issues. How then should Israelis respond to the demand that they choose either of these "solutions"? In fact they need choose neither. Those who insist that they choose between those two "solutions" don't fully understand the problem.
Crush Them
@slumdog unsubstantiated words. That is what you provide a link to.
Is the Facebook post still up? Where can I find an English translation? Those would be something.
That quote itself is extremely sick. Its the same as saying that if a man kills another man's wife, the police are now free to kill the first man's wife, children and extended family. Why? What did they do?
Of course, another glaring problem is calling this a war. Its not a war! Its an occupation with brutal crackdowns and reprisals from both sides. To call it a war is to deny the fact that the Palestinian side is being almost completely dominated.
The civilian death toll is like 90 percent dead Palestinian civilians. There is no excusing that, try as some people might. Those trying just post and blah, blah, blah, and waste our time and energy.
slumdog
They are Shaked's words. She is the accused party here. Her words should at least be heard before passing judgement, don't you think? How do the opinions of others substantiate anything more than the words of the actual person themselves? How does that work exactly?
Why not check first?
Did you read the article? She admits that that is a strong statement but explains what she thinks of it.
There is no excuse for the loss of innocent lives. Zero. I feel the only answer is a negotiated peaceful two state solution. Without it, this will keep being repeated as it has in one way or another for decades now.
Wolfpack
@sfjp330
What other options are there - is there a no state solution?
Crush Them
@slumdog
Of course! But I want the original words, not the excuses that came after.
I did. I found nothing that indicated it was still up, which is all I can do because I don't read Hebrew.
So what I did read was a translation in the links provided by Yabits. And nobody, not you and not other people defending her that I found on the net provided a full translation that they approved of. It all screams "BS!" Can't you hear it?
Sounds like weaseling her way out of trouble to me. Again, I want the original text and an English translation. All I have is an English translation and it damns her severely. She takes issue with the translation only in bits, but does not cough up the original text. I am not such a fool. The woman is fringe right, and I am not just saying that or insulting all conservatives. She is fringe dude. Fringe. Snap out of it!
yabits
When I talk this over with Americans, especially young adults, and they ask me my opinion, I tell them that Americans should be working to withdraw all aid from the Zionist state, via boycotts, divestment and sanctions. Paying people to live in illegal settlements on lands stolen from Arabs is but one of many crimes they are guilty of that demands this response. I don't believe that people should be able to get away with criminal behavior just because they belong to a favored ethnic group.
A just outcome would be a unified Palestine under a government chosen through a democratic vote by all the people.
Crush Them
Unlike Yabits I would be perfectly happy to see Israel and Palestine as two separate states. After all, Palestine did declare independence and so did Israel. The trouble is fairly dividing certain areas of land.
I would not however accept any solution that demands Israel exist as a Jewish state by policy, same as I would accept no demand that any nation exist as a Christian state or a Muslim state. Religion has no place in government and if any nation is nearly completely Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or other it should be a matter or coincidence and never policy. With Israel its clear that it is policy, and that is sick and medieval. In fact, its at the root of the entire problem with the region.
yabits
Well, a two-state solution will be next to impossible under that condition. Another necessary condition for a "two-state" solution is for Israel to vow never to send its military against the Palestinian state, but to treat any violence coming from Palestine as a crime, and to agree to work in cooperation with Palestinian authorities to solve it, respecting their sovereignty. But Israel will never agree to that.
It is one of several things that are "sick" about the whole Zionist concept, charter, aim, goals, raison d'etre, etc. And it has brought the world closer to the brink of nuclear war on more than one occasion. Think about that. And for what?
Wolfpack
@yabits
Are you going to give a straight answer or not?
I guess you will not say whether it is acceptable to you for both an Israeli and Palestinian state to exist side by side because you obviously want Israel gone. You seem to actually support Hamas - a group committed to destroying Israel and killing every Jew for no other reason than that they are not Muslim. Hamas is made up of a group of religious fanatics that want to impose their beliefs on others and who do not tolerate people different from themselves. I cannot understand how the general Palestinian can put up with people like them unless they share the same intense hatred of Jewish people.
Wolfpack
@yabits
Are you going to give a straight answer or not?
I guess you will not say whether it is acceptable to you for both an Israeli and Palestinian state to exist side by side because you obviously want Israel gone. You seem to actually support Hamas - a group committed to destroying Israel and killing every Jew for no other reason than that they are not Muslim. Hamas is made up of a group of religious fanatics that want to impose their beliefs on others and who do not tolerate people different from themselves. I cannot understand how the general Palestinian can put up with people like them unless they share the same intense hatred of Jewish people.
sfjp330
@wolfpack
The difficulty in the premature formation of a Palestinian state is the unlikelihood that it can be established and maintained right now. It is not by accident that the Arabs missed several opportunities to establish such a state. This freedom deficit undermines political development and deliberately disregarded. Problem of Arab education, economic stagnation, deep poverty, social rifts and the inferior status of women, makes states dysfunctional. It will continue making the personal and community life of Palestinians unbearable. Is this the kind of government International community wants to extend to the Palestinians? If it happens, within a very short time, it will disintegrate and be taken over by the extremist Hamas movement.
yabits
You seem to be completely ignorant of the fact that when European Christians were conducing mass murder on Jews, it was Muslim countries who took them in and gave them refuge. Thriving Jewish communities existed in Morocco, Algeria, Lebanon, Baghdad and Tehran, as well as in Palestine.
I witness more intense hatred and disparagement of Muslims on these forums.
Wolfpack
@yabits
I think that is great. But it rings hollow from a guy that supports Hamas.
yabits
Here are the words of the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem. (to the United Nations) Perhaps they will ring less hollow:
"During no period of the immigration of such orthodox European Jews was any opposition offered by the Arab population. On the contrary, these Jews were welcomed on account of economic benefits and general progress that accrued to the local inhabitants who had no fear whatsoever of being subjugated. It was common knowledge that these Jews came but for the purpose of fulfilling certain religious requirements and they had no difficulty in establishing a mutual trust, and real friendship developed with all sections of the community. That was the time when good neighborly relations existed between Jews and Arabs and in particular Rabbis and eminent scholars who then lead the Jewish Community were greatly esteemed and honoured by all inhabitants."
http://www.truetorahjews.org/dushinsky1
The Zionists brought war, ethnic cleansing and murder. It was they who created Hamas.
Wolfpack
@yabits
What is it about terrorism that is so appealing to you?