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2 men shot dead in Toys 'R' Us brawl; Wal-Mart worker dies after rampaging shoppers knock him down

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I can't believe the stupidity and ignorance of people. There isn't anything, let alone shopping, that would allow me to act in this manner. And people just trampled over him like a piece of trash.

Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas. < :-)

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This is the day I stay away from all shopping venues. I can hardly tolerate going to them on a normal day.

Thanksgiving is one of my favorite holidays; I can't imagine having to mentally brace myself for the onslaught of such ill-mannered hordes who took this poor security guard's life through their single-minded focus on bargains.

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A metaphor for American society this year: frenzied purchasing leaves destruction in its wake.

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I'm surprised more people haven't died all these past decades. The holiday shopping season brings out the extreme nastiness in people. No one can forget, for example, the cabbage patch doll craze in the early 80's. It was literally a feeding frenzy, grown adults were ripping the dolls out of kid's hands at the stores. I just do all my shopping online.

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The sickness that is obsessive consumerism... http://www.storyofstuff.com/

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Poor man. What a horrible way to die. At least Walmart will see his family right, I hope.

I hate sales, never go to them.

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At least Walmart will see his family right, I hope.

i wouldn't count on that, though the publicity may force them to pony up something. The actual amount will also depend on NY state's workmen's comp laws.

I agree with with rjd, I'm surprised there haven't been more death by tramplings, frankly. Some people began standing in line yesterday afternoon in anticipation of the bargains associated with "Black Friday."

Someone I know who went to a clothing outlet which opened at midnight told me once you'd find something to buy you had to take a number and wait outside in a long line to be rung up since purchasers would have filled the entire floor leaving no room for those who hadn't settled on anything yet. There's no article of clothing that's worth that sort of hassle to me.

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A few people got shot and killed in a store in Southern California. Not a very good image to project to the world.

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Its ridiculous. I got myself knocked over a few years back in Jersey. I wasn't even Christmas shopping and didn't have any idea about that days sale. All I wanted was an XBOX. American shoppers are pathetic during Christmas time.

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What an incredibly avoidable and unnecessary tragedy.

I've never gone shopping on Black Friday and never will.

It's a great day for doing non-shopping related things however. Took the kids spelunking and to an amusement park and we practically had both places to ourselves.

My condolences to the families of the victims.

Taka

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Ahhhh, Christmas brings out the best in people. Peace on earth and good will to all people.

A few people got shot and killed in a store in Southern California. Not a very good image to project to the world.

Agreed, alot like all the stabbings and hackings here in Japan.

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Sadly yet another example of the consumer driven and morrally bankrupt society of Japan - oh wait.

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2 idiots kill eachother at Toys-R-Us, no further injuries.

Sorry to everyone who was scared out of their wits, but this has to make you smile! You won't be missed fellas.

Drew his gun but forgot to cock it then had to flee! What a maroon! But I guess he was a good shot! Fleeing like that and he turns around to fire fatal shots! Even idiots have their skills I guess!

Too bad the mirth of this story was killed by mixing it up with the idiot shoppers in New York City. Its too bad they were not the ones scared silly at Toys-R-Us.

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Two men pulled guns and shot each other to death

Well, some poetic justice I suppose.

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Sadly black Friday seems to be a self fulling name, it is a truly dark day for humans in general when someone dies for discounted Walmart goods. I wonder how many of those involved in the trampling had unpaid mortgage payments?

Some try to blame atheist for trying to kill Christmas, when the truth is the almighty dollar has already long since succeeded.

The first man reached a dead-end in electronics, turned around and ran toward an exit, pulling his gun and firing back, he said.

An ironic turn of events.

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Here's a link to Wal-Mart's Black Friday sale that people killed for, literally:

http://www.blackfriday.info/sales/wal-mart-black-friday-ad.html

Thank you, Amazon.com

RR

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good for society two less idiots

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“I think the obvious question everyone has is who takes loaded weapons into a Toys “R” Us?”

Nah, I think the actual obvious question is why the US doesn't get with the rest of the modern world and ban the everyday possession of handguns as well as improving its regulation and gun laws. Perhaps if you start at the source, they're be no need to ask why people take loaded guns anywhere.

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Some try to blame atheist for trying to kill Christmas, when the truth is the almighty dollar has already long since succeeded.

I found it odd myself; why were those folks so eager to criticize "political correctness" more concerned that the cashier didn't say "Merry Christmas" than that a religious holiday had been wholly appropriated by the shopping mall? Roughly one quarter of US spending occurs between Thanksgiving and New Years, much of it put on plastic.

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smith

why the US doesn't get with the rest of the modern world

You mean like Switzerland?

Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, but also one of the lowest firearm related crime rates in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

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No one's saying violent crime or sickening consumerism is exclusive to America. But it is definitely worth highlighting in any nation when its people die due to nothing more than greed over goods. Even more so when someone dies from this greed, and people are so callous as to complain when told to leave the store due to the death of an employee.

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'rjd jr' has written

"But it is definitely worth highlighting in any nation when its people die due to nothing more than greed over goods. Even more so when someone dies from this greed..."

Did he actually die from greed? Seems to me he died as a result of the incivility that has filled a void where simple common courtesy once prevailed.

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I agree mcheeky, the USA should, like Chris Rock suggested, make each bullet $5000. That would definitely eliminate crimes of passion with guns. You'd have to work 3 jobs for a year to really be able to pop caps properly in someone then. You'd also see a near end to stories like this one.

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Gun ownership rates might be high, but bullet ownership rates are extremely low.

This may not be true. But the situation is very detailed and there are many rules and restrictions on firearms in Switzerland. The United States is not even close to Switzerland in any form except the high gun ownership rates. Until the United States copies the Swiss in that myriad of other areas, we can expect more stupid gun crime like this.

I would rather just do away with the private ownership of guns though. Its not like we are a neutral nation surrounded by historic enemies and need such a militia is it?

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Informed Americans know that most gun deaths in the US are concentrated in certain neighborhoods, about which gun control freaks want you to know as little as possible.

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for those who want to pin this sick crime (in a toys are us for x sake) either are very lonely people or people who live too far on the side of the law.

I have not been to a country, except Japan, where I could not get anything I wanted, including guns and bullets. You would be surprised what I would come across in a not too distant past.

Drugs are illegal, highly illegal, but people still keep getting them. A whole bunch of things are illegal, but we still do it or will still obtain it.... so please, don't use this crime to further your political feelings on guns. I said it before I'll say it again, I wouldn't even own a gun if I was confident people wouldn't try to jack my car, even without guns its still deadly in many cases, find a way to get guns or even grenades..

Would any of you have felt better if this had been a machete killing?

If you really want to help the US get rid of guns, how about helping us get rid of the street gang/thug mentality? How about screaming at us for glorifying street crimes, come on you all love watching those movies and most of you probably put tats on your bodies in an attempt to make yourself look like a thug or to scare people away. How about screaming at us about what is really driving such crime - drugs! Nope, you won't go there because we all get high.

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skipthesong -

You're kinda saying what I've said many times before when the topic has been gun control. There's something deeply wrong with a society where it's accepted people will try to kill you if they can.

Living in Japan, I am reasonably confident no one is going to try and 'jack my car' just because I don't have a gun to defend myself with. America (and to a growing extent, sadly, the UK) does indeed need to get rid of the street gang/thug mentality and glorification of street crimes. I'm not sure what 'those movies' are that you're referring to - apparently not the kind of films I watch. And I'm sorry, but no I do not see 'most' people walking around with 'tats' on their bodies in an attempt to make themselves look like thugs or scare people away. Seems a pretty weird thing to do. And again no, we don't 'all get high' on drugs.

Holier than thou you may think, but I honestly do not recognise the world you describe. It is not the world I know.

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Helter_skelter: "Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, but also one of the lowest firearm related crime rates in the world."

Hehehe... I think mcheeky said it pretty well, but let me just add to the fact that it's funny you defeat your own arguments on gun control by citing a country with actual control over their guns. Too funny.

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"Two men pulled guns and shot each other to death in a crowded toy store Friday after the women they were with erupted into a bloody brawl"

So, it was the women who started it.

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As much as the instant experts here on JT want to "wish it all away", they seem to ignore that in almost all cases of gun violence, those who use guns in the commission of a crime have no respect for laws in the first place. Laws restricting guns in society only apply to law abiding citizens and does little in taking weapons away from the criminally minded. Besides when these people kill themselves, its chlorine for the gene pool.

The founding father's were smart enough to know that ordinary citizens have the right to protect themselves and their property. Any attempt to take guns out of law abiding citizens hands will only make it easier for criminals to prey on society.

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VOR: "those who use guns in the commission of a crime have no respect for laws in the first place."

These were people shopping at Toys 'R Us, not Crips 'N Za Hood. How much more ordinary can you get? In fact, it was part of a shopping 'surge', which would seem to indicate a whole lot of other normal people were there as well. They probably suffered the very normal stresses that come with an ABnormal number of normal people pushing each other for discounted goods. The normal stress amongst all the normal people led to normal consequences; a fight. Unfortunately, they had guns, which should NOT at all be normal, and turned a very normal situation into yet another day in the life of the gun-toting US. If they didn't have guns, they most likely would both still be alive, and might even have toys for their kids.

"The founding father's were smart enough to know that ordinary citizens have the right to protect themselves and their property."

Yeah, some 232 years ago when they needed flint-lock rifles to arm themselves as militia in case the British came back. I know this is going to ruffle a lot of feathers, but the founding fathers were stupid not to put in stipulations that prevented what has come to be today -- any moron who wants an uzi being able to pick one up at a gun show, kids being able to carry a rocket launcher to school to show friends (it's happened, though it was not loaded!), and the people who peddle the weapons that are used to kill more than 10,000 Americans a year are protected by the government. It's a sick society, VOR, and sorry but of the more than 10,000 deaths a year via guns, the majority would be prevented with a ban on handguns and better gun control (like in Switzerland, as Helter_Skelter pointed out in his mocking of the US rules and regulations), and are not at all crime related until the act is committed.

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VOR convinces, smithinjapan minces.

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the founding fathers were stupid not to put in stipulations that prevented what has come to be today

Don't blame the American Founding Fathers for failing to predict over 200 years ago what can easily be seen today. There are plenty of amendments to the U.S. Constitution, as the Founding Fathers did not write it in stone. So, its not their fault Americans are too thick to fix this modern problem.

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none of the news reports have indicated who these two guys were in the Toys R Us. Clear thinking calls for all to reserve judgement on whether these two were ordinary citizens and not gang bangers or criminals with rap sheets.

I will admit there are aspects of American society that are sick. I have been back for a few weeks and do not like what I see. There are elements of society that want to appear like they are tough. Some of them its obvioius posturing, but there are a lot of places I will not get out of the car and walk into a business establishment. In a few weeks from now, I'll have my permit to carry a concealed weapon which will likely not change my mind about some of those locations, but it will give me a piece of mind doing so where it is borderline.

232 years ago the founding fathers recognized that the only way to prevent tyranny, its citizenry should be armed.

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Now that the guilty are being sought out and hopefully persecuted I am confident that the international Left will quickly change their tune on this one.

"NEW YORK (AP) - Police were reviewing video from surveillance cameras in an attempt to identify who trampled to death a Wal-Mart worker after a crowd of post-Thanksgiving shoppers burst through the doors at a suburban store and knocked him down."

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Laws restricting guns in society only apply to law abiding citizens and does little in taking weapons away from the criminally minded.

Its not so much those who have guns right now. Its about those who will get them in the future. If the legal sale and manufacture of guns in the world were to stop tomorrow, what do you think would happen? Guns would eventually become as rare as they are in Japan, that is what would happen. Rome was not built in a day.

Let us assume that 10 percent of all guns will be owned by criminals. Well, ten percent of 10,000 is a whole lot less than 10 percent of 2 million, and the death must necessarily plummet.

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none of the news reports have indicated who these two guys were in the Toys R Us. Clear thinking calls for all to reserve judgement on whether these two were ordinary citizens and not gang bangers or criminals with rap sheets.

Why would that matter to the shoppers at Toys 'R Us in Palm Desert, largely a retirement community, when they heard "He has a gun!" and "¡Pistola! ¡Pistola!"? Presumably most of them are "ordinary citizens." Let's say several had been carrying guns, would uncoordinated shooting from behind boxes of toys has been the best response? I don't think so given the number of shoppers, including many kids, who were likely in close proximity to the two men with guns.

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Betzee, taken out of context your right, it doesn't matter to the people in the store who these two knuckleheads were. The quote you pulled out of my post is in response to another post which asserts these morons were just ordinary citizens.

mccheeky, when you find utopia, please let me know.

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Betzee, taken out of context your right, it doesn't matter to the people in the store who these two knuckleheads were. The quote you pulled out of my post is in response to another post which asserts these morons were just ordinary citizens.

The problem I have with the view that "if everyone were armed we'd all be safer" is that it would bring normal life to a complete halt. I have enough trouble finding anything in a store like Toys 'R Us to begin with, if I had to be ready to shoot at a moment's notice (or be caught up in a lot of uncoordinated gunfire) I doubt I could complete a purchase. Ditto for my work; it requires enormous concentration that would be impossible to maintain if I had to be ready to respond to some moron bursting in with a gun on a moment's notice.

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it goes without saying that if everyone had a gun that would be nuts, but is it any less nutty to allow criminals free reign. case in point. the cities in America with the strictest gun control laws have notoriously high numbers of crimes involving weapons. In cities where concealed carry permits are allowed, the figures are much lower.

my problem with gun control advocates is on the same lines with the problems i have with the christian right. You don't like something so now you want to impose your will on me. I'm not sure the left wants to push gun owners into that corner.

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it goes without saying that if everyone had a gun that would be nuts, but is it any less nutty to allow criminals free reign. case in point. the cities in America with the strictest gun control laws have notoriously high numbers of crimes involving weapons. In cities where concealed carry permits are allowed, the figures are much lower.

Cities have higher density populations to begin with. Those with different laws, such as Baltimore and Washington, which are demographically comparable have roughly similar crime rates, suggesting laws have little impact.

More importantly, from the point of view of status quo advocates, they are heavily minority so most firearm violence can be attributed to violent low lifes blowing each other away, who cares?

The problem is such violence frequently spills over into communities like Palm Desert, home to lots of "ordinary people," such as those shopping at Toys 'R Us. So the issue cannot be laid to rest in that way.

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the cities in America with the strictest gun control laws have notoriously high numbers of crimes involving weapons.

Cities are not island enclaves. NYC law enforcement is well aware that four out five guns used in the commission of a crime in the Big Apple have been purchased south of the Mason Dixon Line, where purchase requirements are a lot less stringent than NY state.

Mayor Bloomberg hoped to focus the spotlight on this problem in the wake of last year's Virginia Tech shootings, in which the victims could have been anybody's children. But he got nowhere owing to the view of the NRA than any change to the status quo represents the first nail on the coffin of gun ownership. That intransigence is part of the problem.

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the founding fathers recognized that the only way to prevent tyranny, its citizenry should be armed.

This one always gives me a chuckle, the idea that gun-owners are upholders of liberty and could fight back against a mythical tyrannical government. Didn't work out too well at Ruby Ridge, did it? I'm sure the defenders or liberty will find solace in their semi-automatic weapons as they'll be a real big help fighting against the tyrannical government's (or UN army) JDAMs, M1 TUSKs, and Apaches.

Moderator: Readers, back on topic please.

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anyone who goes Xmas shopping in a toy shop with a loaded gun is a T.F.A. and I am honestly glad we are rid of them both. if they had kids, sorry your parents were human waste but you'll get over it.

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and as for random knife violence on a bus, yes I guess you are right...kind of. I agree, knife murders would occur far less if people carried guns instead.

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mcheeky

Let us assume that 10 percent of all guns will be owned by criminals. Well, ten percent of 10,000 is a whole lot less than 10 percent of 2 million, and the death must necessarily plummet.

What a fallacious argument. Criminals will always find ways to get guns, so that number is not going to change. So if you assume 10 percent of all guns are owned by criminals, then reducing the total number of guns will simply increase the percentage of criminals to total population that have guns. Reduce guns enough and mostly the criminals will have guns, which not even the most ardent anti-gun proponent would find acceptable...would they?

smith

I think mcheeky said it pretty well, but let me just add to the fact that it's funny you defeat your own arguments on gun control by citing a country with actual control over their guns.

You stated you wanted to ban all guns in America. Yet you also site the success of Swiss gun control laws in which every male owns his own military assault rifle. So how can you believe the solution is to ban guns at the same time praising a country with the highest gun ownership? Can't have it both ways. Once again, you make no sense. Kinda sounds like you agree with the the Swiss model and we should train every American male in the use of assault rifles and allow them to keep them.

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So this idea that bullet restriction is somehow responsible the low gun crime rate doesn't hold water. But nice try.

Then why don't YOU tell us why and tell us how you plan to apply that the the U.S.?

A lot of us are sick of random gun crime such as what just happened at Toys-R-Us. What is your plan?

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Can't have it both ways.

How about one way or the other? This third way of America's just ain't cuttin' the mustard.

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Ditto for my work; it requires enormous concentration that would be impossible to maintain if I had to be ready to respond to some moron bursting in with a gun on a moment's notice.

Or a coworker whipping out his legally owned sidearm he carries everyday and going postal on everybody.

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Sorry, guys. Not buying the "not enough bullets" theory. Sounds nice and all, but doesn't really make much sense. It doesn't take many bullets to shoot and kill someone. And people who decide to kill are not people who spend any time thinking about the consequences (thats why the death penalty isn't very good as a deterant.

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Very sad to see people act so horrendously.

Helter_Skelter said:

Criminals will always find ways to get guns,

What a fallacious argument.

He just had the order of the sentences wrong.

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Or a coworker whipping out his legally owned sidearm he carries everyday and going postal on everybody.

Nicely put, cheeky. Last week in the community where I used to live a terminated employee returned to his former workplace and killed the owner and two other staffers. All very upstanding citizens (the shooter had no police record and the only thing unusual was that he didn't off himself afterwards).

It elicited a bit of gallows humor after discovering the perpetrator was heavily invested in the real estate market:

A tip to human resources people: before you fire somebody, make inquiries to find out if he got caught up in Greenspan's bubble. If so, have some extra security on hand. It may even be safer and less costly just to keep him on the payroll until he offs himself.

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Gun ownership is part of the larger question of how far we are willing to let our politicians tell us how to live our lives.

Ultimately, if you see government as a big papa, you are probably fine with gun control. However if you see government as a necessary evil, and most politicians as unfit because of some combination of arrogance, corruption and/or ineptness, I'd say you are, or should be, for allowing people the right to own guns, because guns are ultimately the people's only veto power if a government grows too corrupt.

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guns are ultimately the people's only veto power if a government grows too corrupt.

Indeed, we can find multiple examples of this in the world. I'm not sure, however, it's a path I want the USA to go down....

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If everyone in the store had a gun none of this would have happened! Remember guns dont kill people, people with guns kill people. Be kind and help everyone buy at least 12 weapons that way everyone will be safe!LOL

Man I got to tell you this could only happen in America!

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If everyone in the store had a gun none of this would have happened!

I am surprised that the first one to say this did so in jest.

I guess everyone realizes that these two offing eachother was the best outcome and it could not have happened if Toys-R-Us erupted in the gunfight that would ensue if a bunch of anonymous shoppers whipped out pistols, no one knowing the other from a hole in the ground.

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I'm disappointed there were no upstanding citizens with their own guns to save the day.

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if Toys-R-Us erupted in the gunfight that would ensue if a bunch of anonymous shoppers whipped out pistols, no one knowing the other from a hole in the ground.

Another penetrating insight. If it ever came to that, stores like Toys 'R Us would never allow shoppers to bring guns in; they would install metal detectors. This is understandable given the likelihood of lawsuits that would result from a lot of uncoordinated shooting in which innocent bystanders got hurt.

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Andrew Leonard had an interesting take on this in his salon.com column today:

Consumer spending makes up 70 percent of the economy, and consumer spending is undergoing a sharp, economically destabilizing decline. The less we shop, the worse it gets. No shoppers equals declining profits for businesses equals layoffs equals even fewer Americans with the wherewithal to shop. And so on. This vicious circle has led some observers to declare that shopping is an act of patriotism....

One can even make the case that the Wal-Mart shoppers were especially rational consumers. Prices are absurdly low for a vast array of consumer items right now, and when money is tight, taking advantage of discounted offerings is not only prudent but a two-fer! Good for the economy and good for your pocketbook.

Seen from this light, the Wal-Mart stampede, while horrible and obscene in its localized impact, might also seem to be exactly what the entire economy needs. And come on -- the carnage is easily avoidable; just do your stampeding online. Give Santa a hand: Christmas is just three weeks away, and your friends and relatives aren't the only ones lusting after a present -- so is the U.S. economy!

The problem is, as he goes on to point out, the U.S. economy is contracting, at a rate of at least 4% per quarter. This kind of binge buying of big-screen TVs is not enough to offset that, particularly when retailers have slashed prices so low they are hardly making any profit. Only Uncle Sam can turn the situation around by going on a spending spree, preferably on infrastructure investment.

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This letter sums it up pretty well:

I was horrified to read about the tragic and unnecessary death of a Wal-Mart worker, Jdimytai Damour, and I extend my sympathies to his family.

It appears that many of us need a reality check to remember that the sanctity of irreplaceable and priceless life far outweighs the momentary benefits associated with garnering cheap toys that will end up in the trash heap a few months later.

Though blame for this tragic incident rests primarily upon the barbarians who rushed the door, corporate America must shoulder some blame for creating the hype surrounding the ritual known as Black Friday that causes some aggressive and nasty people to do horrible things.

Having only a few deeply discounted items in stock when more than a thousand people come to purchase this item only abets the desperate hysteria and poisoned, competitive dog-eat-dog atmosphere.

All Americans need to reflect on this tragedy as we approach the season of what should be good will toward all humankind and ensure that it never happens again.

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Kinda sounds like you agree with the the Swiss model and we should train every American male in the use of assault rifles and allow them to keep them.

I think this is because Swiss are grown up and mature and so can be trusted with weapons. This does not translate into an argument for allowing the citizens of the US to have them.

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Some say guns kill. Others say shopping kills. I say Sales kill. Ban all Sales NOW!! You decide for yourselves.

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That Wal-Mart is actually close to where I am. Was too busy working to actually shop.

As the saying goes: "individuals are smart; people are stupid."

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As the saying goes: "individuals are smart; people are stupid."

Ha, agreed. For one, that line was used in "Men in Black".

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Are serious ? This story got more hits than the Mumbai story where 101 people were slaughtered by muslim zealots ! Yo folks, get yer priorities straight !

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We've seen what two shoppers with guns will do, more is just going to turn this into a bad western.

It's sad that a woman would just start punching another. Probably thought, "My man has a gun, I can punch anybody I want!" In front of her own kids, of all things.

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whizzer: I concur but you see it's about America and guns two hot button issues for Euro expats to vent about from their ivory towers.

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Some blame sales, some blame the "Wild West" mentality, some blame corporate-sponsored hype, some blame guns. In fact, all blame belongs to the individuals who momentarily allowed their animal sensibilities to overcome all basic, decent considerations. This is the basic flaw in America today. Blame pornography, junk food, government, free market depravity, advertising . . . But protect the individual's right to be a complete idiot! No wonder the Russians are laughing at us!

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This brings shopping for toys to a new level. Wow.

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Some blame sales, some blame the "Wild West" mentality, some blame corporate-sponsored hype, some blame guns.

Nobody blamed guns. They blamed easy access to guns, a situation that comes from being awash in them. Its the fact that such outrageous people get them that is the problem, and they will continue to get them until they are gone. I will settle for rare though.

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Stupid people.

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Guns dont kill people ignorant people and "mega stores" do. Support your local "Main street" "Mom and Pop" store...

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