Wisconsin approves anti-union measure

As Winston Churchill so astutely put it, there are two types of victories: the immediate victory and the ultimate victory. The Wisconsin Republicans have launched their clever little sneak-attack and have come away with a temporary victory.

I wouldn't want to be in their shoes now.

I can not believe the behavior I saw on the news on one of the TV's here.... these people are actually teachers?

Well, once the craziness settles down maybe the state can finally attract business it has been denied for so long.

Oh and now maybe workers can keep that money and spend it the way they feel fit instead of the union just dumping into campaigns...

This fight has a long way to go yet. Incredible in this day and age in the land of the free (sort off) laws are being passed to deny workers the right to sit down with their employer and discuss wages and conditions of work. US workers fought this battle one hundred years ago. At this stage it is about state employees but it is a short step to saying all employees should have the "right" to negotiate individually and to help things along laws will be passed saying collective bargaining is illegal. Yet one ofthe most powerful unions in the country - any country - are the employer associations.

Unionised workers, through their collective actions earn higher wages. Take away the ability to negotiate collectively and workers will earn higher or lower wages? Worth remembering that America is one of the last few countries in the world to refuse to ratify the UN convention on child labour.

It is essential that workers around the world support their brothers and sisters in Wincosin because if not this despicable legistlation will spread through America and then around the world.

Read a very interesting article from Bob Herbet the other day where he said we are applauding Egypt fighting for democracy but we have all but lost it in America where decisions are made by big business for big business.

Bring back the Wobblies. And as so many right wingers want every one to have arms - give the Wobblies guns!

Sanity prevails for once. Everyone should know that government cannot spend a nation to prosperity. I hope the people in Washington and Tokyo can also find the courage to tell the people that the party is over and the bills have to be paid.

Good for the Cheese-heads. Although I'm sure Michael Moore is now licking his chops drawing up a movie with a cheesy (no pun intended) movie title.

I hope the people in Washington and Tokyo can also find the courage to tell the people that the party is over and the bills have to be paid.

Yes, the bills have to be paid. By the people who by and large did not create them. Who was at the party that is now over? ENRON anyone? Bankers big bonuses? Electicity price exploitation in CA? Why should the less paid living within their meagre budgets now have to pay for others excesses?

If I go a big binge spending money I don't actualy have other than on paper, will you bail me out when the party is over? Thought not. So let's attack those nasty unions who - God forbid - try to improve peoples lives. What on earth are they thinking? **

Sweden has the highest both the highest level of taxation in the world and the highest social spending. Union membership in Sweden is 80% and the Swedish economy grew by 5.5% last year, accelerating t0 7.3% in the last quarter.

Go figure.

the state can finally attract business it has been denied for so long.

Walker made a statement today that he will introduce 250,000 new jobs to private corporations.

This is exactly what I was afraid of. This is a bad idea. Big corporations will start controlling a public sector business monopoly.

I am elaborating the possible outcome if we allow the corporations to control public sector.

You: "Hello, someone is breaking into my house. Help!"

Private Police Station Answering Machine:

"If this is an emergency, please press 1 if not press 2, in order to better assist you, your call may be recorded, please hold".

You are total chaos and panic. Finally the other side pick up your call. Thank god!!

Dispatcher: "How may asist you today?"

You: "Someone is breaking in, please help me now!"

Dispatcher: "Sorry sir, in order to send you a help, you need to pay off your outstanding bill. What's your visa card number?"

You: "f!@#$"

Well, this is just beginning. This case will be challenged to District Court while people are now working on petitions for recall. I have learned that an injunction was just filed by union members. There are a 3 branches of power in democracy. Great system. See what Dist. Judge will decide on this case.

Truly a communist nation that such things can be done. Wisconsin has literally ignored the will of the majority of people, and has stomped on and then taken away their right to speak and collectively bargain.

This is going to come back and bite them in the a$$, without a doubt.

I wouldn't want to be in their shoes now.

lol. Yabits, all Republicans need to do, is point to the 3 weeks of mob rule. 3 Weeks where the Dems shut down and interfered with the peoples business. 3 weeks of demonstrated bile and hatred on the part of the left. No, I wouldn't worry about the Republicans in Wisconsin. Not at all. The dems who ran away, they should worry.

This fight has a long way to go yet. Incredible in this day and age in the land of the free (sort off) laws are being passed to deny workers the right to sit down with their employer and discuss wages and conditions of work.

Obviously you don't understand at all what just passed. Workers can sit down and discuss anything they want. However now, the taxpayers have a seat at the table, rather then the corrupt scheme where the unions negotiate sweetheart deals with the pols, and then in turn work to re-elect those same pols. No, this at least restores some sanity to an untenable and unsupportable situation.

Workers can sit down and discuss anything they want.

Sure if they want to, but this matter is already filed to district court. The injunction was filed to Attorney General (R), it is not that clear cut here as you wish. fyi

the part of the left

Why this is an issue of left? This is an American issue. Just in case I am pasting again what we believe.

But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

in retrospect to GW's analogy, I just checked several large cities fire, police and sanitation departments. Funny, how ever heavily unionized cities like NY, Newark, Boston, Chicago, all of them had the age limitations... I see that since I'm 39 I am too old to be even a garbage man... even though I'm well qualified. Talk about discrimination

Big corporations will start controlling a public sector business monopoly." As long as their unions are too strong, we can get rid of them.

ENRON anyone?

Always laugh when this people try to point out ENRON as a case for regulation. ENRON got approval for just about every crazy scheme they hatched from the SEC, not all of them mind you but enough to make a person lose any and all faith in the SEC. "ENRON: Smartest Guys In The Room" actually shows them playing those regulators like a fiddle.

Private Police Station Answering Machine:

Couple interesting facts on that. A: The Pinkertons proved that private security companies were perfectly capable of doing a dang good job at protecting their clients for the right price. B: Private security companies are contractually obligated to protect those that they serve even if they have to put themselves at risk. By contrast, police are not subject to this requirement (Warren vs. District of Columbia).

The more probable result of your scenario would be the homeowner having a direct call button somewhere in their house that would pretty quickly lead to six or seven burly security thugs beating the invader to within an inch of his life with batons. And if service is considered unsatisfactory then the owner (or next of kin) can sue the private company for losses and/or wrongful death, by contrast you wouldn't be able to sue the police.

The reaction to the bill's passing should give you enough evidence that union power is dangerous.

I'm even gonna ask my brother for us to open an office in Wis. now..

Hope he has no kids. Wisconsin will cut $900 million dollars in education. And his kids are accepted by a charter private shool. Wish him the best.

GW, he has always sent his kids to private school anyway... All of us went through both Miami and Chicago school systems.. We know we wouldn't want what we went through in Chicago for our kids. I plan to do the same. I'm appalled that there are teachers being protected by unions that shouldn't be there.

if the service is considered unsatisfactry, then the owner can sue the private company?

The private company can file bankruptcy.

The reaction to the bill's passing should give you enough evidence that union power is dangerous.

Well, I wanna tell you your friends Koch Brothers (they are the 4th richest 48 billions) and other oil billionnaires including FOX news are celebrating their victory over "Oil Subsidaries Bill" two weeks ago. These riches successfully bought out "Energy Commission" in congress and successfully kept this bill to stay alive. The money does not go to susidaries, instead it goes to political campaign for politicians (R and TP). I am sure you have been aware the fact OUR tax money over Trillion has been going out to these corrupt billionnaires who want to control little guys like us.

They are trying to bust unions as the Politicians (D) are with little guys and unions. The money from these poor teachers, policemen, firefighters, nurses and private corporate union workers have given very little to their political representatives, compared to the billionnaires . It is just a penny in a bucket.

I hope you feel good what you are fighting for.

I'm 39 I am too old to be even a garbage man... even though I'm well qualified. Talk about discrimination

Apparently, you have never had a job with a public sector. They do have very strict rule they have to follow for employment.

Yes Wisconsin and Gov Walker!!!

Bust up the union mafia!!

Apparently, you have never had a job with a public sector." countless times I've told people on JT that I have worked for the VA hospital and drove an ambulance in two cities until 99' (that's why I even bothered to say "qualified")... you're not the only one with union experience.

They are trying to bust unions as the Politicians (D) are with little guys and unions. " No, the dems are with their cash cow.. Fear not, they'll find another one.

I wanna tell you your friends Koch Brothers (they are the 4th richest 48 billions) and other oil billionnaires including FOX news are celebrating their victory over "Oil Subsidaries Bill" two weeks ago." I don't even know these Koch brothers and I live in Japan. No Fox news, so let's stop this. The oil subsidiaries bill if you really look it is kind of like a "bailout of GM" which you supported to keep people working. remember, its the gov telling them they can't drill... kind of like tell you you can't make calls or puts in for a month. You gonna give up those commissions?

Go Koch brothers!! The more millionaires and billionaires we have, the better the lot of ordinary Americans becomes!

Jesse Jackson sends a warning message during an appearance on FOX News: "So they're going to escalate the protests -- you will either have collective bargaining through a vehicle called collective bargaining or you're going to have it through the streets".

skip -

jesse who? Is he the one caught trying to buy Obama's Illinois senate seat?

Go Koch brothers!! The more millionaires and billionaires we have, the better the lot of ordinary Americans becomes?

Is your life better than 10 years ago. Hope so. Your thinking is well aligned with tipical supply side economic thinkers have been telling you. Their political view is that they should get a big tax break as they are creating jobs for workers. But the truth is the jobs still going to overseas regardless in global economy. I am a demand side economic thinker, and I do not buy their argument what's so ever.

globalwatcher -

Yes it is. :-)

The oil subsidiaries bill if you really look it is kind of like a "bailout of GM" which you supported to keep people working.

It was a due to management failure. They are just shifting a blame to the middle class Americans.

Bust up the union mafia!!

They are all with highly skilled lawyers behind. Not mafia at all. FYI

manfromamerica, please come back like skipthesong with reasoning, please. Pissing without reasoning is void when doing a political debate.

GW: the Koch bros, as i just checked what they're about, are hardly relevant for the most part. They are actually a scapegoat. This is all about teachers/public employees taking too much and being untouchable, including, bad teachers and pedos still being on the payroll.

Anyway, now the kids should be back in school... and teachers should be teaching. that's what they are paid to do, not trash up public places, shout and threaten people....

Koch Brother is a scapegoat.

They are political activist. They are a head of America for Prosperity with Dick Amy (R). They are the biggest money engine for Tea Party movement and Walker . They BOUBGHT OUT "Energy Commission".

Anyway, now the kids should be back in school... and teachers should be teaching. that's what they are paid to do, not trash up public places, shout and threaten people....

1500 teachers received a pink slip this week.

They are the biggest money engine for Tea Party movement and Walker" So? So its ok for unions to force people to pay dues and then give it over to the dem campaigns but not for anyone else? Who the heck is dick army?

Who the heck is dick army?

I am pasting About Dick Armey. He and I have a different ideology in Economics. Actually we are totally opposit. He campain money was always directly linked with Koch Brothers.

Richard Keith "Dick" Armey (pronounced /ˈɑrmi/; born July 7, 1940) is a former U.S. Representative from Texas's 26th congressional district (1985–2003) and House Majority Leader (1995–2003). He was one of the engineers of the "Republican Revolution" of the 1990s, in which Republicans were elected to majorities of both houses of Congress for the first time in four decades. Armey was one of the chief authors of the Contract with America. Armey is also an author and former economics professor. After his congressional career he worked as a consultant, advisor and lobbyist.

Tea Party movement and Walker?

You can google what they stand for. It fits to your ideology, then you go for it. They are trying to abolish FED. Very dangerous ideology here. Who will control monetary policy then?

I don't care about no tea party, dem party, repub party... I do care about non-performing workers getting paid for stellar performing workers and I also care about taxes. Someone with the same credentials of these teachers gets paid less and still pays into their own retirement and health care.

Now, pls quit the conspiracy theories... there are times when I find myself agreeing with you and this is NOT one of them.

Who will control monetary policy then?" Well, considering so many of those on board have had issues with taxes, I should apply for it. I've never had a money issue even when I was making hardly anything.

I would like to thank any American democrats here. Your side put on quite a spectacle - trashing the capitol, physically attacking Republicans and showing the contempt for our Constitution that now pretty much defines your party.

It's about time this was all stopped. Why should these people get pensions? They all make more than most people and the are GOVERNMENT workers! One point...I think the Governor, the Senate, and Congress should drop THEIR pension plans too.

Dem. trying contempt for our Constitution??

Good try, Tea. It is a fault. You know nothing in US history. Hilarious, hilarious, hilarious. No more debate with you, worthless.

Why should these people get pensions?

Let's drop your 401K and SSI too. The public employees do not have the 401K and SSI plan like you do. Sounds fair?

Well, considering so many of those on board have had issues with taxes, I should apply for it. I've never had a money issue even when I was making hardly anything.

You have lost me here, but I guess you are trying to tell me you have no money problem. Thank god. The following listed below is a role and function of US FED RESERVE BOARD.

Federal Reserve are to conduct the nation's monetary policy, supervise and regulate banking institutions, maintain the stability of the financial system and provide financial services to depository institutions, the U.S. government, and foreign official institutions.

globalwatcher at 04:17 AM JST - 12th March. Let's drop your 401K and SSI too. The public employees do not have the 401K and SSI plan like you do. Sounds fair?

Regardless, the current pension system is not substainable. Every year, over 70 percent of the money that city or state takes in, this is spent on salary, medical benefits, and pension. And the percentage will continue to grow. The goverment pension has to change with times. Some of the police officers and fireman draws pension at early age of 50 's and get close to 70-80 percent from what they were earning and if this individual lives to be 85 years old, they would received approximately $3 million plus $500,000 in health benefits. Does any private companies offer this type of deal? Never. The new employee that is hired, the benefit should be limited to 401K and SSI that is similar to private companies.

Now, pls quit the conspiracy theories

Where did you get this idea? I gave you all facts. Not theories.

Good try, Tea. It is a fault. You know nothing in US history. Hilarious, hilarious, hilarious. No more debate with you, worthless.

Actually, she made a very good and valid point. The 'protestors' did trash the capital, the Dems fled the state rather then allow a democratic vote, and you claim by stating these obvious facts, she somehow knows nothing of US history and is not worth debating? Allow me to disagree. Its obviously you who isn't worth debating.

manfromamerica - jesse who? Is he the one caught trying to buy Obama's Illinois senate seat?

That was Jesse Jackson JR who tried to buy Obama's Illinois Senate seat. He's the son of the Jesse Jackson who was shooting his mouth off in Wisconsin.

Its obviously you who isn't worth debating.

You are entitled to your opinion. I am very proud what I did for the Civil Rights movement.

I am very proud what I did for the Civil Rights movement.

And I hope one day maybe you will free your own mind, embrace Liberty and wake up.

Obama's Organizing For America was directly involved in the violence and the mayhem, which is why he has yet to speak out against the death threats and violence done to Republican politicians and supporters.

His little neo-Marxist "organizers" need to be held accountable for the crimes they have comitted.

"And I hope one day maybe you will free your own mind, embrace Liberty and wake up."

Clearly you cannot be free in Wisconsin -- it's a fascist state.

Facists....neo-marxists.....? Get a grip.

This story is not as complicated as people want to make it.

Walker is free to do what he wants...he got elected.

The Dems fleeing the state is not an example of good leadership. You dont stop the game and take the ball and run away just because things arent going your way. Elected leaders need to have respect for the process that is government.

If people think the law is unconstitutional, then fight it in the courts.

"American democrats"

This has become a way to show contempt for the Democratic Party (note the poster capitalizes "Republican.")

It doesn't bode well for the future that some don't appreciate the difference in meaning between small "d" and capital "D." Tea's views would be taken more seriously if his/her post reflected knowledge of that difference.

Gov. Scott Walker's bitter standoff with Democrats and labor unions in Wisconsin has turned the newly elected Republican into a deeply polarizing figure, eroded his standing and left him struggling to win the battle for public opinion, a flurry of recent polls suggests.

In one new survey, 54% of Wisconsinites disapprove of Walker's performance while 43% approve. Walker is viewed less favorably than either of his main antagonists in the state's stormy budget debate: public employee unions and Democrats in the Legislature. And after just two months in office, he inspires more intense feelings - pro and con - than President Barack Obama does in Wisconsin.

From The Wall Street Journal.

"Some of the police officers and fireman draws pension at early age of 50 's and get close to 70-80 percent from what they were earning and if this individual lives to be 85 years old, they would received approximately $3 million plus $500,000 in health benefits."

If this is the real drain, why did Walker exempt them from his plan?

If this is the real drain, why did Walker exempt them from his plan?

Because the police and fire-fighters unions supported Walker in his campaign and this is his political payback. It has nothing to do with principles.

They now know that Walker can't be trusted over the long haul and that he'll come after their union eventually.

Clearly you cannot be free in Wisconsin -- it's a fascist state.

Based on the death threats issued by the pro-union jack booted thugs, you might be right. But then I've come to expect that from those paragons of hypocrisy on the left. I've also come to expect the lack of coverage by the left wing loons in the media. Imagine if the Tea Party did what the mobs in the capital did.

Because the police and fire-fighters unions supported Walker in his campaign and this is his political payback. It has nothing to do with principles.

I don't know if thats true or not, but I do agree that they shouldn't have been exempted. All public employees should be stripped of collective bargaining rights. Should make it just like it is on the Federal level.

Based on the death threats issued by the pro-union jack booted thugs, you might be right.

People have to recall that Walker is on record admitting that his team considered bringing in thugs to incite violence and cause trouble. Therefore, any reports of threat and violence have to consider Walker's team as a possible source.

As for the demonstrators, police never saw any need to make arrests as all the folks they observed were peaceful.

All public employees should be stripped of collective bargaining rights.

When the police and fire-fighters supported Walker, they never knew he'd be going after the collective bargaining rights of any union. They never would have supported him, and he would have LOST, if Walker had made his intentions known.

As it stands, at least two Republican senators are going to be recalled. They will be removed and this travesty will be corrected. Wisconsin has a very proud history of union involvement going back over a century -- fighting against two-faced crooks like Walker his cronies in the Senate.

yabits - As for the demonstrators, police never saw any need to make arrests as all the folks they observed were peaceful.

-As it stands, at least two Republican senators are going to be recalled. They will be removed and this travesty will be corrected.

HAHAHAHA State police were manning the doors and windows that were broken by the professional demonstrators and students. There are VIDEOs and the violent persons can be arrested later. However, the "government" State police union has been discovered threatening Wisconsin's B I Bank if they don't denounce Walker's legal actions. That's extortion by the government union leadership.

More proof that "government" unions and their leadership should never be in a position to be able to shut down any State government. Idaho, Indiana, Ohio and other States are in the process of removing this danger to the taxpaying voters control of their governments.

Your "claim" of an actual recall is premature. Whether it's for the 14 Democrat Senators who ran away or for the Republicans and Tea Party representatives who stayed to do the bidding of the taxpaying voters, circulation of a petition does NOT mean that any recall will actually take place or even that one is warrented. You're efforts are beginning to seem very desperate.

However, the "government" State police union has been discovered threatening Wisconsin's B I Bank if they don't denounce Walker's legal actions. That's extortion by the government union leadership

Excellent, although there is no threat whatsoever. Since M&I Bank has helped Walker to destroy the union movement, it makes perfect sense for union members to withdraw their funds and take their business elsewhere. It's called freedom to choose, although right-wing hypocrites call it a "threat" when people unite to choose to protect their best interests.

Your "claim" of an actual recall is premature

The process has started.

Whether it's for the 14 Democrat Senators who ran away

LOL! The Democratic districts that they represent consider them to be heroes. There could never be a sufficient number of signatures collected from those districts to hold a special election. Of course, that won't stop stupid, out-of-state conservatives from wasting their money. Talk about desperate.

Oh, but the same is not true for a number of Republican districts, as you shall soon see. Especially those that were won by narrow margins of victory.

circulation of a petition does NOT mean that any recall will actually take place or even that one is warrented.

LOL! Watch and learn. You should familiarize yourself with Wisconsin laws that apply to recall elections. Filing to circulate a petition is the first step of the process. Every Democrat and independent who is an eligible voter and who believes (correctly) that Walker and his Republican minions are sleazy crooks, is going to line up to sign that petition.

Recalling two Republicans is all it will take to swing the Senate. I hope they petition every district with a Republican who has served at least one year.

Democrat Senators who ran away

Once the Wisconsin voters have corrected their major screw-up and have properly recalled these Republican sleazebags, we'll see if the remaining Republicans try to bolt to bring any future process to a halt. Should that happen, their sanctimonious supporters won't give one damn about "the taxpaying voters."

Walker has shown the way, and the New Left fanatics among the once-great Democrat Party have paved it for him. Walker acted like a governor should. What sweetens the victory for Libertarians and conservative proponents of limited government is that his actions, along with those of Christie, will gradually make ex-governor Palin ('the Quitter') less relevant.

It's win-win.

Again - my thanks to American Democrats here. You have, albeit unwittingly, helped show readers here how ideologically bankrupt the New Left has made your party.

yabits:I wouldn't want to be in their shoes now.

Because of the death threats. I understand. I don't want to get all pedantic but having been raised on the Left Coast and among "liberals" I know the jargon so indulge me here - You must be ashamed, as I am sure taka313 is, to come to grips with the realization that the Left has been engaged for almost 3 years now in one massive exercise in projection, accusing Tea Party people and anyone not on board for the Democrat power grab of being violently intolerant and "eliminationist." But facing up to the hypocrisy, the projection and the dangerous degree of psychological inflation on your part is part of the process your side needs to undergo if you hope to become relevant again.

What sweetens the victory for Libertarians and conservative proponents of limited government is that his actions, along with those of Christie, will gradually make ex-governor Palin ('the Quitter') less relevant.

Palin was only relevant among complete idiots to begin with, so claiming she'll be "less relevant" speaks volumes.

been engaged for almost 3 years now in one massive exercise in projection, accusing Tea Party people and anyone not on board for the Democrat power grab of being violently intolerant and "eliminationist."

The T-Party hasn't been around for three years. The Democratic "power grab" was done via the ballot box, decent Americans having had their fill of Republican lunacy.

"Eliminationist?" The projection from the fringe is getting so bad, they're channeling the "irrelevant" Palin in their need to create new words.

The good people of Wisconsin have always been relevant, and a series of recall elections is going to prove that. Kudos to the state that "Fighting Bob" LaFollette called home!

People have to recall that Walker is on record admitting that his team considered bringing in thugs to incite violence and cause trouble. Therefore, any reports of threat and violence have to consider Walker's team as a possible source.

Hehe. You just keep telling yourself that. Which state do you live in again? I have the sneaking suspicious its Denial. Lets be realistic here, the people making these death threats are your typical left wing, jack booted thugs. The only thing they haven't done, is committed actual physical violence. Yet. Intimidation and threats, vile and disgusting slurs. All these things are there. I say again, what if this was the Tea Party doing these things. Care to comment on the reaction to that?

As it stands, at least two Republican senators are going to be recalled. They will be removed and this travesty will be corrected. Wisconsin has a very proud history of union involvement going back over a century -- fighting against two-faced crooks like Walker his cronies in the Senate.

lol, thanks Yabits. Best laugh I've had all day. Reading about all the horrors that are taking place, with Fukushima and the Tsunami, I definitely needed that.

The T-Party hasn't been around for three years. The Democratic "power grab" was done via the ballot box, decent Americans having had their fill of Republican lunacy.

As they demonstrated just 5 months ago... Whoops, think ya got that backwards. Par for the course though eh?

Which state do you live in again? I have the sneaking suspicious its Denial. Lets be realistic here, the people making these death threats are your typical left wing, jack booted thugs

The blogger Doug Ross [ Doug Ross/atsymbol/journal ] has compiled a collection. Some of these people are so unhinged, so ill-bred and or stupid that they have actually included their names in their videos (posted on YouTube) or in the tweets they send. There is one featuring a wild-eyed young Leftist pointing a pistol at the camera. Insane. This is Obama's idea of "organizing for America" ? Must be, since he refuses to condemn their actions.

But yeah, they are all about "civility" and "respect for democracy"...

The recall effort is on. Wisconsin state senators Hopper (R) and Olsen (R) are going to be recalled by a majority of the people in their districts.

Walker and his crooked billionaire-serving cronies have motivated the opposition as never before. The ripples they have started are going to carry over to 2012 election, and sweep President Obama to a second term in office.

"Your side put on quite a spectacle - trashing the capitol, physically attacking Republicans"

When did this happen? This sounds like the scenario raised in the phone call when Walker believed he was talking to one of the Koch brother who suggested: "Let's place some agitators in there to destroy property and threaten people and we can turn this around."

Everyone was well aware there was a PR battle going on too. To quote Daniel Moynihan: You're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

I think Jerry Brown's approach in California is much better than the political theatre we have witnessed in New Jersey and Wisconsin. The 72-year old Governor of California, a Democrat, assembled a group of law enforcement personnel and informed them: "I didn't retire at 50 and you can't either for the state pension fund to remain solvent." By contrast, his opponent Meg Whitman, was going to follow Walker's led and exempt law enforcement from "the pain" they claim is being shared.

Elections, in which turn-out hasn't even reached 60% in recent elections, are about who can get their people to the polls. I'm sure there are some Republicans who feel Walker's tactics are going to come back to bite Republicans at the ballot box.

Walker can claim, as GWB did, "I don't care about opinion polls" as his ratings go south. But that arrogant attitude will doom him. It's easy to campaign and win elections on a platform of "limited government." But the devil is in the details:

Saturday's protest [in Madison] got a boost from a parade of more than 30 tractors driven by farmers supporting the union workers. Thousands of people lining the sidewalks cheered as tractors rolled by bearing signs with messages such as "Planting the seeds for a big season of recalls." The farmers thrust their fists in the air in response.

Tod Pulvermacher, 33, of Bear Valley, drove a tractor towing a manure spreader carrying a sign that read, "Walker's bill belongs here" -- a reference to Republican Gov. Scott Walker.

"Farmers are working-class Americans," he said as the crowd around him started to cheer. "We work for a living as hard as anybody, and this is about all of us."

Pulvermacher said the fight against the law was "everybody's fight" and it was just beginning.

"If we can keep the energy high, we can change a lot of things in Wisconsin in the next year," he said.

Judy Gump, 45, who teaches English as a Madison high school, also said the fight wasn't over. She said that if the first person who got arrested during the civil rights movement had given up, the movement would have failed.

All these things are there. I say again, what if this was the Tea Party doing these things.

Breaking news shows more handiwork of the T(B) Party types in Alaska, involved in a plot to kidnap and kill state police there. Must be those really invested in carrying out the TBP dictum of "second amendment remedies."

Did the Democrats in Wisconsin proclaim, as one Republican did, that if "ballots don't work, then bullets will?" No. Liberals in Wisconsin know they can get a large majority of decent Wisconsin voters together to defeat these Republican TBP wolves in sheeps' clothing.

@Betzee:

Really great posts there. Thank you.

She said that if the first person who got arrested during the civil rights movement had given up, the movement would have failed.

Liberals like myself, pledged to non-violence, know that good will triumph over evil eventually. The union movement, like the civil rights movement, are on the right side of history in this -- while their opponents have to resort to lies, deceit, and violence in order to counter those who are in the right.

Breaking news shows more handiwork of the T(B) Party types in Alaska, involved in a plot to kidnap and kill state police there. Must be those really invested in carrying out the TBP dictum of "second amendment remedies."

Hmm you sure they're tea party types? Sounds like something union thugs would do. Probably a bunch of community organizers involved. That sounds like something the libs would do.

Liberals like myself, pledged to non-violence, know that good will triumph over evil eventually. The union movement, like the civil rights movement, are on the right side of history in this -- while their opponents have to resort to lies, deceit, and violence in order to counter those who are in the right.

Heh, oh, wait you weren't joking about that were you? When you mentioned the pledge to non-violence, I was sure you weren't serious. I mean since you refuse to condemn those issuing the death threats etc. The people on your side. Its getting to the point, where if there is a death threat against someone, or violence committed, its almost 90% likely to be a lib.

Good has triumphed over evil. The Jack-booted thugs have been pushed back, despite their threats and intimidation. They will fight back. Evil never goes quietly.

Yabits, you're welcome.

The bar is set really low here:

"Sounds like something union thugs would do. Probably a bunch of community organizers involved. That sounds like something the libs would do."

So therefore any destruction of public property can be automatically attributed to union thugs, community organizers, and libs, the backbone of the "democrat party," since it sounds "like something they would do."

Except I didn't read about any destruction of public property. Where are the police reports? Youtube postings may convince those like molenir and tea, already true believers, but they are unlikely to win the PR war that was alluded to in the call Walker took from someone he believed was a Koch brother. Guess he won't be getting that trip to Cali he was looking forward to. Too bad!

LOL. The special phone call that proves everything and resolves unions and Democrats of their criminal acts again. The Libertarian Koch Brothers! (who spent millions fighting the Patriot Act...) Proof of da big conspiracy! Do Libs understand Walker didn't even recognise his 'master's' voice. Talk about desperate.

So therefore any destruction of public property can be automatically attributed to union thugs, community organizers, and libs, the backbone of the "democrat party," since it sounds "like something they would do."

Of course not. There is that fringe minority on the right as well, its just that about 90% of the time, its left wing violence and threats.

Except I didn't read about any destruction of public property. Where are the police reports?

There aren't any to speak of in Wisconsin. The protesters conducted themselves extremely well.

You have to understand what constitutes a "threat" to right-wing loonies. A threat is when a group of union workers decides to pull their money out of a bank that supports the governor that has tried to destroy their movement.

By contrast, a group of right-wingers -- supporters of TBP candidate Joe Miller -- were just arrested for plotting to kill state troopers and a federal judge.

"An investigation 'revealed extensive plans to kidnap or kill Alaska state troopers and a Fairbanks judge,' the statement said. The plans included 'extensive surveillance' on the homes of two Fairbanks troopers, the statement said."

By contrast, we see the supporters of Tea Party/Militia violence decrying peaceful liberals for "masking tape damage" on marble. They have to invent stories that equate masking tape residue with threats to kidnap and kill state troopers and judges.

There aren't any to speak of in Wisconsin. The protesters conducted themselves extremely well.

Well, apart from the damage done to the capital building, and of course the death threats. Sure. Actually, I admit that apart from 1 minor incident, there really wasn't any violence.

You have to understand what constitutes a "threat" to right-wing loonies. A threat is when a group of union workers decides to pull their money out of a bank that supports the governor that has tried to destroy their movement.

Actually, some of the things these people have done, makes Jesse Jackson look clean by comparison. Extorting money and favors under duress.

By contrast, a group of right-wingers -- supporters of TBP candidate Joe Miller -- were just arrested for plotting to kill state troopers and a federal judge.

I don't know anything about this, but hey its Alaska so anything could be true. Having said that though, lets keep something in mind here. This is the same government that arrested a bunch of 'militia' members for plotting violence, and then ended up having to release them all, for lack of evidence. So, while you're absolutely right, there could be some group of extremists doing stuff like this, I reserve judgment on whether to condemn them or not.

By contrast, a group of right-wingers -- supporters of TBP candidate Joe Miller -- were just arrested for plotting to kill state troopers and a federal judge.

"An investigation 'revealed extensive plans to kidnap or kill Alaska state troopers and a Fairbanks judge,' the statement said. The plans included 'extensive surveillance' on the homes of two Fairbanks troopers, the statement said."

I see Talking points Memo had a new story for Yabits to spin with.

By contrast, we see the supporters of Tea Party/Militia violence decrying peaceful liberals for "masking tape damage" on marble. They have to invent stories that equate masking tape residue with threats to kidnap and kill state troopers and judges.

You can add the cost to clean up the chalk outlines of a dead bodies outside that they had to hose off to clean also. Well At least according to TIME magazine.

The state capitol of Wisconsin had taken on an eerie quiet on Friday. Gone were the throngs of protesters who occupied its marble floors like a campground in summer. The midnight honking of cars circling the white building had ceased. The chalk "dead man" outlines etched with Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker's name on the sidewalks remained in dismembered parts, incompletely washed away by clean-up hoses.

The standard applied by Molenir to liberals is this, as he writes at 3:02:

I mean since [liberals] refuse to condemn those issuing the death threats etc.

The standard Molenir applies to the people he supports is this -- same day at 16:13:

there could be some group of extremists doing stuff like [plotting to kidnap and kill state troopers and a judge], I reserve judgment on whether to condemn them or not.

I'm not sure any poster has revealed the innate, shameless hypocrisy of the right-wing better, or more quickly, than this.

The chalk "dead man" outlines etched with Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker's name on the sidewalks remained in dismembered parts, incompletely washed away by clean-up hoses.

Your thoughts Yabits? Pretty graphic imagery if you ask me from those peaceable folks and all.

I see Talking points Memo had a new story for Yabits to spin with.

Try the Fairbanks Daily News-Miner. As with the right-wing's planting of a bomb to kill or injure marchers in a Martin Luther King Day march, Fox News ignores the story as part of "reserving judgment" because it reflects badly on its base viewership -- who do everything they can to try to spin such stories away.

The chalk "dead man" outlines etched with Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker's name on the sidewalks remained in dismembered parts, incompletely washed away by clean-up hoses.

The chalk outlines represent Walker's political future in Wisconsin. Stick a fork in him; he's done. The good people of Wisconsin will first "chalk off" the careers of two Republican state senators. Terminating the political careers of any tyrannical politician who would terminate the rights of people to collectively bargain is a completely fair exchange.

Pretty graphic imagery if you ask me from those peaceable folks and all.

It's pretty graphic to people with a limited understanding of anything, which includes irony and context. No liberal wishes physical harm to come to Walker or any politician. We believe in the democratic process -- of which non-violent striking, demonstrating and civil disobedience are necessary parts.

Far more graphic are the words of the Indiana Deputy Attorney General [Jeffrey Cox -R] who expressed his personal wish that the Wisconsin state troopers would use live ammunition on the peaceful demonstrators. The sane officials in Indiana soon chalked off (TBP supporter) Jeffrey's career. Without needing any live ammunition, to boot.

Try the Fairbanks Daily News-Miner.

Umm, I did already.

The News-Miner reports that Lonnie and Karen Vernon are already being tried in a federal civil case for allegedly owing "$166,000 in unpaid income taxes, interest and penalties for 1996 and the years 2000 through 2003." Judge Beistline was presiding over their case, first filed in 2009. He wrote last month:

Seems he had another motive to make threats against the Judge and legal system, but what hey spin away.

The chalk outlines represent Walker's political future in Wisconsin

Yes, Yes I'm just sure that all it is. After all seeing a chalk outline would never conjure up a image of a body that was removed after being violently murdered.

Judge Beistline was presiding over their case, first filed in 2009. He wrote last month:

Judge Beistline was appointed by G. W Bush in case you wondering also.

"Wisconsin approves anti-union measure" and in response the National Labor Relations Board declared Friday that intimidation and threats of physical violence by pro-union supporters is "not coercive."

The "organized" Left can no longer restrain their totalitarian urges.

At least the mask is now off...

After all seeing a chalk outline would never conjure up a image of a body that was removed after being violently murdered.

Only to those with a very limited imagination. A person keeling over and dying of natural causes might just as well be chalked off too. As would a suicide victim. Which fits Walker and his supporters since they've just committed political suicide.

People in Wisconsin have a vaunted heritage of standing up for progressivism and workers' rights. They're not stupid people who can be pushed around into accepting far less than they are worth like a lot of native Southerners -- people who believe that plantation owners are ordained by the Creator.

Beistline was appointed by G. W Bush

So what. David Souter was appointed by his father.

and in response the National Labor Relations Board declared Friday that intimidation and threats of physical violence by pro-union supporters is "not coercive."

LOL!! Where's the news outlet behind that story? The Right-Wingnut Daily tops The Onion for comedy.

Only to those with a very limited imagination. A person keeling over and dying of natural causes might just as well be chalked off too. As would a suicide victim. Which fits Walker and his supporters since they've just committed political suicide.

Agreed, I'll try to expand my horizons 'and think outside the box' when it comes to chalk dead body outlines errr symbolic images of a dead political career rendered in a way that promotes 'civility' in the future.

No liberal wishes physical harm to come to Walker or any politician.

Yabits, you just make yourself look silly now. I posted a few days ago the link about the bomb threat made in WI and the arrest of the militant Lefty who made it.

I also put up a link yesterday to YouTube vids featuring some unhinged "progressive" thug pointing a gun at the camera,along with death threats made on Twitter by Libs who even included their names. Where do these people get the blind assumptions of impunity they hold?

Your caricature of conservatives (and Libertarians) seems founded on the unexamined and bizarre belief that people are born into political groups. I suppose the full embrace of Identity Politics leads to such blind spots.

I was once basically on the Left, it is where a good deal of my close friends are politically. I know the violence the far Left is capable of, and we are seeing it again.

I posted a few days ago the link about the bomb threat made in WI and the arrest of the militant Lefty who made it.

So what? A liberal is not a "militant Lefty." Anyone who would make a bomb threat is not a liberal by definition. Liberals should not have to apologize for militant people who, on any given issue, could be opposed to liberals and still be just as crazy.

put up a link yesterday to YouTube vids featuring some unhinged "progressive" thug pointing a gun at the camera.

He couldn't have been a liberal. Everyone knows liberals are peaceniks who are opposed to guns.

So I'll repeat: No liberal wishes physical harm to come to Walker or any politician. In what we've got left of a democratic society, there are still peaceful means for separating the man from his seat of power.

when it comes to chalk dead body outlines errr symbolic images of a dead political career rendered in a way that promotes 'civility' in the future.

At least you admit that there's a difference between a lack of civility and the actual promotion of violence. The Tea Party-supporting "patriots" in Alaska planning the kidnap and murder of government officials, like the bomb-planting, MLK-hating, ultra-conservatives in Washington/Idaho, and the Republican Attorney General in Indiana who urged the use of live ammunition against peaceful demonstrators in Wisconsin, like the Republican US representative whose aid proclaimed "if ballots don't work, then bullets will" -- all are promoting violence.

Against that kind of low-level, Republican/TBParty sleaze, I'll take promoting incivility any day of the week.

"Everyone knows liberals are peaceniks who are opposed to guns," Bill Ayers said to his young acolyte, with a wink.

Quoting Bill Ayers?

My my, someone's feeling clever.

Taka

death threats against republicans, conservatives and the rest of us continue. Where is this president who was supposed to bring the nation together? He has basically been reading My Pet Goat for the last 2 months now...

death threats against republicans, conservatives and the rest of us continue. Where is this president who was supposed to bring the nation together?

It's a question that should be asked of TBParty leaders whose minions have made death threats against Republicans -- whom they call "RINOs" -- in Arizona and Alaska.

death threats against republicans, conservatives and the rest of us continue

This has to be the single funniest thing ever posted on JT. AND THE REST OF US!

Like you matter. I'm your biggest antagonist and all I do is pick on you when I need a pick me up myself.

No one has threatened you or your way of life. Quit trying to claim some sort of victimhood. It's hilarious, but pathetic.

Taka

No one has threatened you or your way of life.

It's as easy as pissing off any of the angry, craven 'progressives' who gather on YouTube, Dkos, or CrooksandLiars. The threat I got came on the last one.