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Armed forces to be deployed to key sites in Britain after Manchester suicide bombing

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By Kylie MacLellan and Michael Holden

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My thoughts and prayers, go out to the people of Manchester, England, especially those who have lost loved ones and also, to those who were injured. Know that you have a friend here in the US who is supporting you, during this tragic time.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

Salmon Abedi born in the U.K.

Raised and educated in the U.K. and died by blowing himself to bits!

Yet again, another terror attack from a recent convert to violence.

Why is this?

Clearly when English soldiers,police and civilians are being murdered then it is nothing short of war.

A famous English politician Enoch Powell foretold of the day when the streets would run red with blood!

Well, those days are upon the people of the UK.

The problem is that militant Islam is allowed to flourish in the UK. Hate speech directed at Jews and the armed forces is given free rein when uttered by extreme Islamic groups!

Gangs of Pakistani men following warped Koranic philosophy have raped hundreds of young English girls.

Mosques in the U.K. have been allowed to have militant speakers spreading messages of hate to young people with predictable results

English society needs to quickly establish parameters to prevent massacres being carried out by such fanatics as these.

Salman Abedi is not some lone wolf - there are many others, right now,living in the U.K. ready to do the same....,,

0 ( +14 / -14 )

It is important not to make direct comparisons to Muslim communities that have established peaceful coexistence, who recoil in abhorrence at these extremists.  There must be clear separation, dissociation that defines a course of action that isolates Jihadist extremism within communities .

Revulsion, aversion must aid the identification of fanaticism, zealotry, ultimately leading to the identification of the extremists before atrocities occur.   

The diverse origins of Britain's Muslims....

The first mosque in Britain is believed to have been opened at 2 Glyn Rhondda Street, Cardiff, in 1860, although this is disputed.

 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33715473

Manchester Arena attack: Muslim leaders condemn ‘horrific’ suicide bombing - Community figures insist that ‘barbaric terrorists’ will not cause division

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/manchester-arena-attack-muslim-leaders-condemn-suicide-bombing-ariana-grande-explosion-a7751576.html

9 ( +12 / -3 )

Let's not forget that ISIS was spawned and incubated in rebel held northern Syria, right along the Turkish border.

ISIS would not have existed were it not for NATO support of the Syrian rebels.

UK, here's your blowback.

Stay tuned, more to come.

-11 ( +6 / -17 )

English society needs to quickly establish parameters to prevent massacres being carried out by such fanatics as these.

What 'parameters' are you talking about? I hear lots of statements along these lines. Give us your idea of what practical measures can be taken.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

This is a horror. Am sad for Manchester beyond words. The suicide bomber was a stupid. All he did was to give rightwing bigots more power. There is more that needs to be said about the horrors in the Middle East that likely engendered this horror, but later.

5 ( +9 / -4 )

@Jimizo

It's simple.The Muslim community in the U.K. has to be strictly monitored.

Sermons at mosques and teachings need to be censored.

Public death threats have to be punished strictly by fines or prison sentences.

The Burka, which covers the face (as in France) has to be made illegal.

Freedom of movement should be curtailed for those spreading devisive messages

Taxes imposed on mosque to fund the above

There are more of course by the most important would be a reform of the Koran has to be implemented as we no longer live in the 7th century.

-4 ( +9 / -13 )

@Kurisupu. Well said. Let's monitoring all religious organizations and, yes, let's tax these groups. I see no reason why these people shouldn't pay taxes like everyone else has to. That money can be used for a special division of law enforcement to monitor all churches, synagogues, temples, mosques, etc. Lay the rules out clearly; neither minister/rabbi/imam nor members of the congregation will be allowed to preach violence to or wish death upon a certain group (for example: you may say you do not believe in homosexuality but the minute you say gays should be stoned, law enforcement steps in). The first offense will result in a stiff warning, a stiff fine and mandatory education and aggressive monitoring including previews of all sermon and scripture lessons. The second offense will be treated as a hate crime with the offenders being punished according to the appropriate laws and that church/synagogue/mosque,etc. being shut down and labelled a terrorist organization along with its members.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

It's simple.The Muslim community in the U.K. has to be strictly monitored.

What, all of them?

Mo Farah, Sadiq Khan, Rageh Omaar, Natasha Khan, Shazia Mirza, Kayvan Novak, Rita Ora, Zayn Malik, Riz Ahmed, Konnie Huq, Riz Lateef, Amal Clooney, Moshin Hamid?

And thousands, milions more?

Have a word with yourself.

7 ( +13 / -6 )

Hi kurisupisu, This defines the necessity that without fear or favour communities and government must act and accept that segregation has fueled resentment and to find consensus for change. Failure to react positively will have tragic consequences. Community leadership is key to construct a unified approach. One has to differentiate between clear failures on the enforcement of law and order through political correct agendas and fanatical extremism      

Extremist fanaticism and ideology transgresses beyond historic past grievances and perceived NATO support of Syrian rebels factions. An incendiary mix of pious dogmatic ideological indoctrination is key to radicalising these so called crusaders.  

The contemporary geopolitical process is a means to cynically provide interdependency. That one is automatically to blame for the other. This position defines the politics of conflict.  A strategy of perpetual  hostility.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

There is more that needs to be said about the horrors in the Middle East that likely engendered this horror, but later.

Let me guess, the West is responsible for everything? This is precisely the sort of nonsense rhetoric that probably fueled this 22 year old man to imagine that he was justified to kill young children at a pop concert. There is nothing besides a dangerous and hateful religious ideology that engendered this horror.

-4 ( +7 / -11 )

You think so?

Actually, no I don't think so.

Zichi you are out of touch.

Have a look at grooming gangs in the U.K. and their tactics.Muslims won't touch alcohol but how do you think sex slaves are made?

Nobody has yet come up with any ideas to prevent attacks in the U.K. I'd welcome some constructive comments!

And no, not all muslims are the same but the dogma that is in the Koran is.

If somebody follows a certain dogma then why shouldn't secular countries seek to limit it?

Up to now things aren't working are they?

-6 ( +6 / -12 )

@kurispusu

I did say 'practical'. Are you saying the overstretched security forces dealing with a long list of possible jihadis need to monitor all Muslims in the U.K.?

Let's take another 'practical' measure

Sermons at mosques and teachings need to be censored.

By whom? Censors in every mosque ready to pounce on a transgression? The so-called 'hate-preachers' are often quoting from the scriptures and when they say revolting things about infidels, women or gays, they have verses to justify it. This is their religion as they see it and they have the right to practice their religion.

Ban the books? Tear out pages from it? Not really practical.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Let's not forget that ISIS was spawned and incubated in rebel held northern Syria,...

No it wasn't. ISIS was "spawned" by al-Zarqawi in Jordan in the 1990s, (in a time and place of no Western intervention.)

The historical ignorance of the apologists on this board is appalling.

"The Muslim community in the U.K. has to be strictly monitored."

It is already, especially since 7/7.

5 ( +11 / -6 )

Readers, please keep the discussion civil and be tolerant of opposing views.

A famous English politician Enoch Powell foretold of the day when the streets would run red with blood!

Enoch Powell. Wow.

10 ( +11 / -1 )

Kurisupisu

no I'm not out of touch in fact I read many British newspapers everyday, but never the gutter press where you kind of comments might be found. There has been a case involving young girls and a gang of Muslim men but there were not hundreds stated by you.

There are more than three million Muslims living in Britain most of them peacefully. The number of terrorists are low compared with the size of the community.

Prior to this we had decades of the IRA terrorists who detonated more bombs and killed many more people and mass property destruction. In fact, the last bomb in Manachester was 21 years ago but they gave a 90 minute warning so people were evacuated but still 200+ people were injured and property destruction £700 million.

A solution to the IRA bombings and terrorists were found and I believe the current reign of terrorism will also be defeated without the need for deconian measures imposed.

Certainly your type of comments hold no sincere solutions.

9 ( +15 / -6 )

@Jimizo

So, when the Koran is interpreted as warranting the killing of an unbeliever etc then that can be justified?

You think so?

Many Muslims will quote scripture and as that is the word of God, then no matter what the consequences or relevant laws are, in any country, then Koranic law has precedence.

The result of this is mass killing.

Obviously, a reform of the Koran is in order.At the very least it is up to the worldwide Islamic communities to debate the book which is not being done at the moment.....

-8 ( +4 / -12 )

"The so-called 'hate-preachers' are often quoting from the scriptures and when they say revolting things about infidels, women or gays, they have verses to justify it. This is their religion as they see it and they have the right to practice their religion."

@Jimizo. Your statement is the single, greatest reason to believe that Islam is not compatible with the West.

Replace "hate-preachers" with "White supremacists" or "Nazis" and see how it reads.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

Your statement is the single, greatest reason to believe that Islam is not compatible with the West.Replace "hate-preachers" with "White supremacists" or "Nazis" and see how it reads.

There are hate preachers in the West who are not Muslim. Should all white people be demonised because of their actions/words?

10 ( +11 / -1 )

It's simple.The Muslim community in the U.K. has to be strictly monitored.

Absolutely not. In any country were people are politically equal, the state has no right to intrude upon the right to privacy. If you allow a particular group to me monitored, there is then no barrier to other groups being monitored. The people, who are active members of society, and the end authority of the state are the ones who should be monitoring each other; personal freedom comes with a great deal of personal responsibility.

Sermons at mosques and teachings need to be censored.

Absolutely not. Once again, regulating the free speech of one class opens the door to regulating the speech of others. You cannot punish thoughts, ideas, or speech, only actions. The problem with islamists is that earthly punishments are not deterrents, because they believe that life is short, and paradise is eternal. The spread of western culture, the freedom it entails, and the importance of individual rights is a threat to traditional religions of all types, and islam in particular. Censorship is widely practiced in islamic countries to limit exposure to western thoughts and ideals.

Public death threats have to be punished strictly by fines or prison sentences.

See above.

The Burka, which covers the face (as in France) has to be made illegal.

I don't see a problem with this, the burkha and the headscarf were banned in Turkey, which is an islamic country, in the time of Ataturk. There is no koranic requirement that women wear them, so it is not a law which is contrary to religious beliefs.

Freedom of movement should be curtailed for those spreading devisive messages

One needn't move in order to spread messages. No freedoms should be curtailed.

Taxes imposed on mosque to fund the above

Since the above are not necessary, neither is funding them

There are more of course by the most important would be a reform of the Koran has to be implemented as we no longer live in the 7th century.

Religions continually reform, including islam, it is the reformation process which is the cause of our problems today. This is because religious leaders see their power and wealth diminishing as the numbers of believers begin to decline. Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with religion or belief, but political manipulation by the leaders of the faith. They use the common political trick of creating imaginary enemies who threaten faith and family, and manipulate their followers to hatred, and the direction of hatred. This practice is by no means unusual, it is fundamental politics of all nations, but religions push such fear and hatred to much higher levels.

The greatest punishment for religious extremists would be to punish any crimes the commit with the usual sentence, then rescind their citizenship, and deport them to their ancestral homelands. If these people cannot live in a western society, follow the laws of the countries where they live, and accept the culture, then they should not be permitted to remain.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

That is the challenge communities have to face. Short term, the scope for security services is clearly defined in the 2005 Prevention of Terrorism act. Article 76 deal with control orders.

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part76

Beyond this, medium/long term is integration and  tackling segregation. Especially in schools and the education system. The acceptance of core British values that define UK society as a nation. Free speech, the democratic rule of parliament, freedom of expression, law and order, tolerance/equality.  etc

4 ( +5 / -1 )

As it emerged that the explosion after the Ariana Grande concert on Monday evening was a terror attack, many people were quick to blame Muslims.

The truth was very different as dozens of Muslims in Manchester rushed to help those caught up in the attack.

Muslim taxi drivers turned off their meters and offered free rides to people, Muslim NHS workers worked throughout the night treating the injured and Muslim locals offered up rooms for free.

The Muslim Council of Britain called the Manchester attack ‘horrific’ and ‘criminal’.

Harun Khan, the Secretary General, said: ‘May the perpetrators face the full weight of justice both in this life and the next.

‘I pay tribute to the police and emergency services who have worked valiantly to save lives last night.

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/23/muslims-unite-to-condemn-ariana-grande-manchester-terror-attack-6655366/#ixzz4hwzHk41n

7 ( +9 / -2 )

If the Islamic terrorists are killing people because it say in the Koran to kill non believers then why did they wait several hundreds of years before starting their campaign since modern terrorism dates from About 1983. Why are Islamic terrorists killing other Muslims. 75% of the Islamic terrorist killing are by a small group of people outside of Europe in Iraq, Syria, Nigeria, Afghanistan, Pakistan.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

kurisupisu - You are missing one key component that I think has a bigger effect on these new radicals, the internet.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Islamic State, now being driven from territories in Syria and Iraq by Western-backed armed forces

Although Western backed forces are fighting IS, it is mainly Russia and the Syrian army. western backed forces are more interested in giving weapons to "rebels" who some may see as terrorists, who are more interested in regime change.

Hate speech directed at Jews...

the reason hate speech is directed to Zionists is illegal occupation, mass human rights abuse, detention of children, torture, settlement building, destruction of olive groves, oppression, blockade of food, medicine and building materials, restriction of free movement...i can go on and on and the best thing is to google "Israel and UN resolutions".

if western countries stopped killing innocent civilians, either directly or indirectly, then people wouldn't be so angry and seek revenge.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Hmm, I thought it would take at least two days before people started proposing a dictatorship against Muslims in the UK.

Nothing like a tragedy for people to start proposing trampling on the freedom of innocents.

That's what happened after 9/11 - the Americans willingly gave up freedom in hope for security. The key word being 'hope', as absolute security is only possible with an absolute loss of freedom.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

@Zichi

Take a look at

'Problem Profile, Operation Protection' and written in March 2010 for a group of senior police officers in the Midlands.

75 grooming gangs identified (majority Muslim) with well over 100 victims!

And to all you others with constructive comments seeking to address the problem-thank you.

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

Speaking of security issues:

The Trump administration’s apparent indiscretion seems likely to cause consternation in London and could raise questions about future cooperation in the long term.

Thomas Sanderson, director of the transnational threats project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies thinktank in Washington, said the disclosures would be irritating to the British. “Suddenly you’ve got 10,000 reporters descending on the bomber’s house when maybe the police wanted to approach it more subtly,” he said.

Sanderson warned of ill judgment and lack of discipline in the White House. “This is a leaky administration. What does that mean for sharing information we need to going forward? The UK and Israel are probably our two biggest sources of intelligence. Now they’re thinking, ‘Is this going to cause us damage every time we share?’ Then you have to calculate every piece of information.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/23/trump-administration-manchester-bomber-name-leak

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Just avoid crowded places. And monitor the shopping habits of all people. So if they buy something that could be used to make a bomb, flag them, send the police over, and ask lots of questions.

A military presence will only do so much to deter lone wolves.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

Let me guess, the West is responsible for everything? This is precisely the sort of nonsense rhetoric that probably fueled this 22 year old man to imagine that he was justified to kill young children at a pop concert.

While you're probably right, the rhetoric is based in fact. The west isn't responsible for everything, but as long as the west continues to meddle in the middle east, people in the middle east will continue to appropriate blame on the west.

The only solution is for the west to get out of the middle east altogether. Let them sort out their crap themselves. If we aren't there to provide a common enemy, they'll fall to infighting.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

And to all you others with constructive comments seeking to address the problem-thank you.

Comments advocating the monitoring of every single Muslim in the UK are hardly constructive. In fact, they are inflammatory and downright divisive, playing right into the hands of the malcontents who seek to achieve their goals of disharmony and hatred.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

75% of the Islamic terrorist killing are by a small group of people outside of Europe

I agree Zichi. Fingers SHOULD be pointing at our government leaders and the criminal organizations (governments) that want hegemonic control at best, or chaos at least, over fossil fuel resources in the ME and Africa.

On 14 April, 75 buses and 20 ambulances evacuated around 5,000 people from Fua and Kefraya to Aleppo. On 15 April, a convoy of buses carrying Shia evacuees was attacked by a suicide bomber west of Aleppo, killing more than 100 people.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

The only solution is for the west to get out of the middle east altogether. Let them sort out their crap themselves.

I think this idea has gained alot of traction in modern thinking but it's a radically ahistorical fantasy to imagine that it's even possible. It's a red herring and not a realistic solution.

The west and the east have been intertwined for centuries going back to the Romans, the Venetians, Al-Andalus, the Ottomans, the Barbary pirates and countless other examples where Muslims and non-believers have clashed. We live in a global society where Muslims have to learn to co-exist with others. The modern narrative that we are just going to disconnect from the region and they will leave us alone is so unrealistic that we shoud just forget it. Even if we succeeded, a new narrative would develop in the Muslim world that blamed the west for standing by while millions of Muslims were killed in sectarian wars in the Muslim world. We already see it on display with Syria.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

I think this idea has gained alot of traction in modern thinking but it's a radically ahistorical fantasy to imagine that it's even possible. It's a red herring and not a realistic solution.

It's the only solution. As long as we find reasons to not do it, we'll continue to see Middle Easterners striking out at Western targets in anger.

The idea that the west is unable to pull out from the ME is pretty ridiculous. Look at what humanity has been able to achieve. The only reason the west won't pull out of the ME is due to financial vested interests, not because of an inability to do so.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

The only solution is for the west to get out of the middle east altogether

That was the Obama doctrine in 2008, believe it not. It didn't work, in the light of the horrors of the "Arab Spring" and other locally inspired atrocities.

Obama was smart enough to realize that leaving Middle Easterners in charge of their own affairs would create more death and destruction and genocide than Western "meddling." That's been true for centuries.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

This is a horror. Am sad for Manchester beyond words. The suicide bomber was a stupid. All he did was to give rightwing bigots more power. There is more that needs to be said about the horrors in the Middle East that likely engendered this horror, but later.

A nut is a nut no matter what religion, race or Nationality. Spare me the blaming politicians or they had it coming sermon you are trying to preach.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

That was the Obama doctrine in 2008, believe it not. It didn't work, in the light of the horrors of the "Arab Spring" and other locally inspired atrocities.

It didn't work because it didn't happen. The west has never left the Middle East.

Atrocities will happen. The West needs to learn that sometimes you need to watch from the sidelines and not intervene, even if it horrifies you to see it happen. Help those who try to escape, but let those who stay deal with it on their own. Helicopter parenting isn't helping the middle east nor the west.

Obama was smart enough to realize that leaving Middle Easterners in charge of their own affairs would create more death and destruction and genocide than Western "meddling."

See my above comment.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

It's the only solution. As long as we find reasons to not do it, we'll continue to see Middle Easterners striking out at Western targets in anger.

I would agree that completely withdrawing from the middle-east could ease the symptoms of Islamic terror, but it wouldn't cure the disease. If there are people living amongst us who follow a sick ideology that legitimises the killing of innocent children at a pop concert in response to the political mistakes of their government, then I would suggest those people and their ideology are the bigger problem. After we deal with them, we can have a rational conversation on foreign policy without fear and intimidation.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

What, all of them?

As far as the radicals are concerned that are planning and promising more attacks, without a doubt.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

I would agree that completely withdrawing from the middle-east could ease the symptoms of Islamic terror, but it wouldn't cure the disease.

It would be like a quarantine where the quarantined patient either dies, or their body finds a way to heal itself.

Either way, it isolates us from the disease.

If there are people living amongst us who follow a sick ideology that legitimises the killing of innocent children at a pop concert in response to the political mistakes of their government, then I would suggest those people and their ideology are the bigger problem.

Sure it's a big problem. Which is why we need to stop making ourselves targets for their messed up ideology.

After we deal with them

Wow you toss out those five words pretty lightly to describe the solution to a problem that cannot be solved. It is literally impossible to eradicate terrorism, without eliminating the entire human race. You could kill every single person on this planet who has a terrorist though, remove the word from all languages, and destroy all literature referring to terrorism, past, present and theoretically, and after a period of time passed, it would rear its head again. That's because terrorism as a response to a perceived oppression of by a powerful group to a weaker group is a concept humans come to logically, since there is no other way for a weaker group to fight back against a more powerful group.

You cannot 'deal with them'. You cannot get rid of them. You cannot remove them. All you can do is try to minimize the risk of terrorism, and try to redirect their efforts elsewhere.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

"After we deal with them"

Wow you toss out those five words pretty lightly to describe the solution to a problem that cannot be solved.

You cannot 'deal with them'. You cannot get rid of them. You cannot remove them. All you can do is try to minimize the risk of terrorism, and try to redirect their efforts elsewhere.

They can be dealt with, but the methods needed to do it immediately are quite unpalatable to most people in our free societies, an rightly so. But that doesn't mean we cannot correct out mistakes and implement a long term plan for the future. One thing we should be doing is privilleging immigration from historically secular societies and putting up more barriers to immigration from fervently religious cultures. A Slovakian bricklayer has never commited an act of terror in Britain, but we have endless reports of second and third generation British born Muslims from particular cultures involved in terror plots. There are many countries in Europe that have absolutely no Islamic terror problems whatsoever because they have been very conscious of long term multi-generational social cohesion in their immigration policies.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

You cannot 'deal with them'. You cannot get rid of them. You cannot remove them. All you can do is try to minimize the risk of terrorism, and try to redirect their efforts elsewhere.

Sure, drastically get rid of the PC rhetoric, police and get rid of all ghettos, infiltrate mosques that are determined to preach radicalism, halt, deport and ban radicals from entering the country, bring the fight to them. All efforts should be poured into fighting, eradicating or reducing as much as they can.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

I would agree that completely withdrawing from the middle-east could ease the symptoms of Islamic terror, but it wouldn't cure the disease.

Agree M3. I don't think terrorist acts like the ones we have been witnessing post 9/11 are solely due to Western presence (and interference) in the M.E. It sure doesn't help but I think the problem has much deeper roots both ideological I.e Terrorists (or potential ones) reject us and our values' and social I.e some migrants feel they were never given a fair chance to integrate in their new country etc. (rightly or wrongly, what matters here is that it's how it's perceived by some).

i think posters who think 'they (Europe) just need to do this and that, problem solved' are having a laugh and grossly underestimate the depth of the pbm. No easy fix am afraid as pretty much anyone's (recent migrant or not, Muslim by birth or recent converts etc) a potential terrorist.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

One thing we should be doing is privilleging immigration from historically secular societies and putting up more barriers to immigration from fervently religious cultures.

And what about the homegrown terrorists? How are they then dealt with? From the sounds of it, this guy who blew up the concert yesterday was born in the UK. Immigration barriers aren't going to do any good with that. Do you want to kick out everyone with roots from theses countries? And where should they go if they are only citizens of the country they are being kicked out of and no other countries?

And what makes you think this will be easier than the west getting out of the ME and leaving them to themselves?

3 ( +6 / -3 )

After we deal with them, we can have a rational conversation on foreign policy without fear and intimidation.

Why can't we do both at once. Deal with threats at home and work towards a more rational foreign policy? Why continue to send huge sums of money to states run by tyrants. Why continue to meddle in other nations' internal affairs, whether via perpetual warfare (Trump is now weighing additional troops in Afghanistan in year 17 and counting), sponsoring coups or arming one band of militants against another, only to switch sides when that, quelle surprise, backfires.

Meddling, mind you, that most Americans find pretty alarming when it's done to us. In other words, the US could walk and chew gum if it chose. And it's funny how little Americans are mobilized to action and the curtailments of civil liberties when things like Sandy Hook or Oklahoma City happen. A Muslim kills a bunch of people and its camps, Big Brother and mass deportations. A white guy does it and we're like, gosh, if only those grade schoolers had been armed!

5 ( +5 / -0 )

drastically get rid of the PC rhetoric, police and get rid of all ghettos, infiltrate mosques that are determined to preach radicalism, halt, deport and ban radicals from entering the country, bring the fight to them.

Ahh nothing like martial law on ones own citizens to deal with a problem.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

And what about the homegrown terrorists?

The same rules apply, if someone pops on the radar and are known to frequent radical mosques, they also are dealt in accordance with all laws regarding terrorism.

Do you want to kick out everyone with roots from theses countries? And where should they go if they are only citizens of the country they are being kicked out of and no other countries?

If they are radicalized and go to a place like Syria or Yemen and want to take on the cause of Jihadism, then they should lose their citizenship if they feel they should take arms against their birth nation.

And what makes you think this will be easier than the west getting out of the ME and leaving them to themselves?

I never said it would be easier, I'm saying fight this as hard as you can, turn up the heat and show them, we will NOT tolerate this kind of behavior anymore and make sure the penalties are severe, give them life sentences for those that are captured, those that want to seek martyrdom then if the Feds get them before they can accomplish that mission, great move on their part.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

It seems a bit late, and probably ineffective, to be stationing armed troops at "key sites". My son's school is across the road from the Manchester Arena and the children have been sent home as access to the area is still restricted. The police wouldn't even allow the caterers in yesterday. I think it's an overreaction and it also means some of the children will miss important exams this week.

I can't think of much that can be done to stop these idiots from blowing things up. Better intelligence is one thing. That doesn't mean monitoring every muslim, but carefully identifying those who might sympathise with ISIS, e.g. by looking at those who access extremist web sites etc.

One thing that should be done is to ban any foreign money from funding places of worship and religious schools in the UK. I'm thinking in particular of money from our intolerant Saudi "allies", which they use to disseminate their extremist views around the world.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

If they are radicalized and go to a place like Syria or Yemen and want to take on the cause of Jihadism, then they should lose their citizenship if they feel they should take arms against their birth nation.

Should David Copeland have had his citizenship taken away, rather than imprisonment?

Or more recently, Thomas Mair?

4 ( +5 / -1 )

And what about the homegrown terrorists? How are they then dealt with? From the sounds of it, this guy who blew up the concert yesterday was born in the UK. Immigration barriers aren't going to do any good with that.

I'm sure his parents were highly educated and secular model immigrants when they came to Britain, but we now see that some of the biggest problems come with the second or third generation who, after some setback in their life, come to reject and despise the culture they were born into and radically adopt their ancestral culture with a fervent zeal. We need to recognise that we were wrong to believe that every culture will adopt British values within just one or two generations.

Do you want to kick out everyone with roots from theses countries?

Of course not, don't be extreme. We need to do two very simple things. First, we need to absolutely respect the rights and freedoms of every citizen already living within our society to lead the life they want to lead, and practice the religions they want to practice (but at the same time we don't need to encourage it or bend over backwards to accomodate their dark age beliefs).

Secondly, we need to admit that we were overly ambitious in thinking we could integrate such radically different cultures in such large numbers over such a short span of time. Britain and Western Europe have made huge mistakes in immigration policy over the past few decades. Everyone from David Cameron to Angela Merkel to Francois Hollande have publicly declared that multiculturalism has been a failure. So much so that a 2016 poll from Chatham House showed that the majority of Europeans support a complete and permanent end to all further Islamic immigration (and people throught Trump's temporary travel ban was an outrage?). We have to actively seek out immigrants from more compatible cultures as incompatible cultures are slowly integrated, emigrate elsewhere, or slowly die off.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

@Toasted Heretic

'Comments advocating the monitoring of every single Muslim in the UK are hardly constructive. In fact, they are inflammatory and downright divisive, playing right into the hands of the malcontents who seek to achieve their goals of disharmony and hatred.'

I never advocated monitoring every single member of the Muslim community in the U.K.

Go back and read my post!

That said, there is still a need for stricter monitoring.

The UK intelligence services are falling the U.K. public by not picking up communications by radical Islamists bent on maiming and killing.

Something needs to change here doesn't it?

I take it that you can now retract the rest of your comments too as a non sequitor.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

It's really sad that it has come to the point where we need the army to come in and control the streets.

I went to Paris a month after the bombings there. As a tourist, it was re-assuring for me to see the soldiers patrolling the streets, but I wouldn't like to see that on a daily basis where I live - soldiers are still patrolling Paris and other cities I hear so I guess there will be no set deadline for their withdrawal in the UK either.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

I never advocated monitoring every single member of the Muslim community in the U.K.

Go back and read my post!

I did read your comment & it said:

it's simple.The Muslim community in the U.K. has to be strictly monitored.

So, to clarify - is that the entire Muslim community? Or some Muslim communities? Every single law abiding Muslim or just extremists and hate preachers? If it's the latter, fair enough.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

We have to actively seek out immigrants from more compatible cultures as incompatible cultures are slowly integrated, emigrate elsewhere, or slowly die off.

Uh, sounds uncomfortably like that policy the Australians had with the Aboriginal people.

How about actively trying to promote harmony and realising that most people have more in common with each other than the differences that the naysayers would have us embrace?

5 ( +7 / -2 )

@M3M3M3 

A Slovakian bricklayer has never commited an act of terror in Britain, 

But probably an Irish one did

5 ( +6 / -1 )

When does a moderate Muslim become a radical Muslim hell bent on death and destruction?

Is there a transition?

When and how does that occur?

Is it even fair to call these people Muslims anymore?

I'm not sure I know the answer to that.However,it is surely necessary to know the answers to these questions.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

When does a moderate Muslim become a radical Muslim hell bent on death and destruction?

Is there a transition?

When and how does that occur?

Is it even fair to call these people Muslims anymore?

Yes, it is fair to call them Muslims. The links between belief and action cannot be ignored or dismissed with cries of islamophobia. All too often we hear that Islamists and Jihadis are 'twisting' the faith. The ideas they have are supported by verses in the scriptures many non-violent Muslims regard as perfect. This is a real problem.

People need to stop circling this issue and confront what is in these books. You can't have an honest conversation otherwise.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

the reason hate speech is directed to Zionists is illegal occupation, mass human rights abuse, detention of children, torture, settlement building, destruction of olive groves, oppression, blockade of food, medicine and building materials, restriction of free movement...

There is no such thing as "illegal occupation" in the instance when there is no wide-ranging law against it. I can claim that eating pork is illegal, because in a few places it is, but for world-at-large, it is not. As for the other points in your paragraph, islam (and other religions) has done the same things, and many islamic countries continue to do the same thing.

Hate speech against jews goes back long before the foundation of modern Israel, who have been persecuted by christians, muslims, and people of many other religions.

How about actively trying to promote harmony and realising that most people have more in common with each other than the differences that the naysayers would have us embrace?

Because the leaders of nations and of religions use faith and fear as methods of division and control. Religious divides are no different than political divides, and these are maintained for a purpose. If people knew they could get along in peace, what need would we have of politicians, priests, and armies? Fear and hatred are the greatest tools of control ever invented. Look at the world today, western societies divided into "left" and "right", with people of the same cultures diametrically opposed to each other's political beliefs. This isn't because there is anything substantially different between them, but because their political leaders manipulate them into identifying with one side or another. Then both sides are played against each other in a way that increases fear and hatred, causing the people to grant their leaders more power, authority, and money to fight the opposition. This has been going on for thousands of years, but human stupidity is eternal.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

kurisupisu,

When does a moderate Muslim become a radical Muslim hell bent on death and destruction?

Is there a transition?

When and how does that occur?

It happens more when the community they come from are told they are "suspect", and that they must be monitored.

It happens when parties and movements start demonizing immigrants.

It happens when people get told to go home, when they are already "home".

It stops when people are not treated as to be feared because they are different. It stops when people stirring hate are told to eff-off by the everyday people on the street.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

But probably an Irish one did

And how the Irish in Britain were often villified because of the acts of extremists who claimed to represent Ireland.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Back on topic please.

When does a moderate Muslim become a radical Muslim hell bent on death and destruction?

When his family and/or friends are blown up by drones while minding their own business. When his country is invaded by another country that has no business being there. When he is in his homeland and treated like a criminal by virtue of his belief in god. When his fellow countrymen are telling him he needs to be monitored because of his belief in god. When he is harassed at airports because of his name. And so on and so on.

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

So let's review; a slowdown of Islamic immigration in order to better integrate new arrivals is just like the Aboriginal genocide, a religious ideology of terror which seeks to destroy the very foundations of our western society is comparable to the IRA, and the way to avoid more radicalisation is to tell the security services not to investigate suspects. I give up, sorry.

The world we live in, with all it's quirks and nuances, is complicated and does not fit into little boxes marked black or white. Which is why armed forces are to be deployed on the streets of Britain. Shocking to those who live on the island but old hat to those who lived through the conflict in NI/6 counties.

There have been immigrants to the island for centuries, going back to pre-Roman times. It's an inherent part of mankind's nature to be nomadic. And it's sadly an inherent part of mankind's nature to be suspicious of what it considers to be the "outsider". When we finally move beyond parochialism and worshipping non existent deities, perhaps humanity will finally be capable of its potential. In the meantime, much as it hurts, it's all about unity rather than division. And that will cause much pain to some - extremist or otherwise.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

It happens more when the community they come from are told they are "suspect", and that they must be monitored.

In the beginning they were not suspect, and were not monitored. Immigrants came in and settled down as they always have. Being "suspect" and being monitored came after terrorism, not before it.

It happens when parties and movements start demonizing immigrants.

Get over it. In America the Irish were demonized, the Poles were demonized, the Italians were demonized, catholics and jews were demonized. When new groups of immigrants enter an established society, there is going to be some resentment, but in time it goes away, particularly when the new immigrants settle into the culture of their new country. Those who don't assimilate are going to have a much harder time.

It happens when people get told to go home, when they are already "home".

See the above. Earlier classes of immigrants to American and other places were told the same things.

It stops when people are not treated as to be feared because they are different. It stops when people stirring hate are told to eff-off by the everyday people on the street.

There was no fear before the terrorist attacks, was there? There might have been mistrust, and misunderstanding, but please don't mix up cause and effect. And, try putting the shoe on the other foot, and see how immigrants from outside countries fare when they move to islamic countries. They are treated in the exact same way, because people behave he way people behave. Here in Japan I do business with many domestic companies, and I am certainly not treated with the same respect that a Japanese would receive. I accept that, because Japan is Japan, and I am not Japanese. If I were offended by it, I would never have come. And if immigrants to Europe or America are afraid of being discriminated against, then they should not immigrate.

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

There are hate preachers in the West who are not Muslim. Should all white people be demonised because of their actions/words?

No, but absolutist ideologies should be criticized, whether that means white supremacy or Islamist supremacy.

The military on parade is window dressing. It wouldn't have prevented this.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

The first muslims arrived in Britain in the 16th century. Most the Islamic terrorist and bombing acts have happened since 2000, 500 years later. In 1997 - MP Muhammad Sarwar becomes the first person to swear his Oath of Allegiance on the Koran in the House of Commons. His he going to follow the Koran to the letter and kill all the other MP's, no of course not. To say so would be just plain stupid.

Some young Muslims have been brain washed by internet sites, extreme preachers, time in prisons, radicalized to turn against their own birth country with hatred in their hearts. Most of the radicalizing also comes from their treatment in the British society. Name on lists, stop and search, checked at the airports, denied flights because some white person objected to their presence.

The treatment of the young Muslims and Muslims in general has been very negative from some sections of the society. This also happened with the Irish in the 1950's and the black people from the Caribbean. Both suffered from racial and religious hatred and bigotry.

The time has come for the leaders of the Muslim religion to have a public discussion about the Koran when it states killing of non believers.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

"It happens more when the community they come from are told they are "suspect", and that they must be monitored.

It happens when parties and movements start demonizing immigrants.

It happens when people get told to go home, when they are already "home".

It stops when people are not treated as to be feared because they are different. It stops when people stirring hate are told to eff-off by the everyday people on the street."

Complete BS. This is the old "blame the victim" card. Sure, if we afraid that they may be violent that will somehow cause them to be violent. Nonsense.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Is it even fair to call these people Muslims anymore?

Those people self-identify as muslims, so that's what they are. The politicians and others who claim that they are not muslims are usually the first to insist that we must respect a person's choice of gender. They cannot have it both ways.

"What comes next will be more severe on the worshippers of the cross,"

I wouldn't be surprised if there were more muslims in the audience than "worshippers of the cross". I don't know anyone who goes to church.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

One more attack, and Trump will be PM of Britain.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Most of the radicalizing also comes from their treatment in the British society.

The recent UK terrorists and ISIS joiners in Europe have mostly come from comfortable middle-class backgrounds, with good educations, often thanks to the state. Just look at the homes targeted in the anti-terror raids. There is no correlation between radicalization in the West and socio-economic background. It's a function of a hateful ideology that was imported from elsewhere.

So it's Britain's fault, eh?. Tell that to the Thais, Nigerians, Filipinos, Russians, Chinese and everyone else around the world who also are being attacked by radical Muslims on a daily basis. One of the most recent Jihadi attacks was Sweden, right? Sweden: such an awful, intolerant, unjust society.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

The recent UK terrorists and ISIS joiners in Europe have mostly come from comfortable middle-class backgrounds, with good educations, often thanks to the state. Just look at the homes targeted in the anti-terror raids. 

The British society provides free education to all children up to university level. Not all schools are equal though and have not seen the academic qualifications of the terrorists. The homes and houses are usually rented from the local governments or housing associations.

The terrorist who carried out the knife attack recently at the House of Commons came from a poor working class family with a single mother.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Complete BS. This is the old "blame the victim" card.

Who's blaming the victim? Everyone has been pretty consistent about pointing out how disgusting these attackers are.

But their wrongs don't mean that the west hasn't done anything that would push them into becoming the way they are.

I bet you don't realize that your stance that the west is absolutely blameless is no different than their belief that the west is absolutely to blame. Inflexibility and extremism is bad on both sides.

Sure, if we afraid that they may be violent that will somehow cause them to be violent. Nonsense.

Nope, you obviously didn't read the points listed with an open mind. Every single point you listed off and complained about was an example of oppression.

The recent UK terrorists and ISIS joiners in Europe have mostly come from comfortable middle-class backgrounds, with good educations, often thanks to the state.

There is more to how society treats you than just your education. If you are a well-educated bloke who has a masters degree, but have a hard time getting a job anywhere because your name is Muhammed Al Whatever, then you will become disillusioned with your society regardless of your education level.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

I've seen messages of "Love overcomes Hate" following this deplorable incident. Unfortunately these Terrorists are beyond reasoning with, and if you really believe otherwise, go personally and try and persuade them with your messages of love, see what happens.

There is no other solution, than to weed them out, and eliminate the threat that they pose, by whatever legal means available. However, the weeding out needs to be done with the assistance of those who are shielding them within their isolated Religious communities - and it's this obstacle that appears to be hard to overcome. Were I to have been one directly impacted by this event, I would be even more suspicious of the real intents of those Isolated Communities within our own. They have become little versions of their own homelands, and even now wish to run their own Laws "Sharia" in parallel to (or superseding ) those of the Land. Surely this lack of proper integration is at the heart of the matter giving rise to the hotbed breeding ground of Islamic fundamentalism within certain areas of the UK .

0 ( +3 / -3 )

How is it that the Authorities were aware of this Individual, and yet let him proceed with the attack ? Outside of the UK, the US knew of, and even reported the name of the Individual before the UK did, and also the French Government are claiming that they knew he had "Proven" links to ISIS in Syria. So having just returned from Libya, no suspicious red flags were raised ? Where did we fail ?

As of now, in a show of Strength, the Prime Minister has ordered Troops onto the streets having raised the threat of another attack to Critical, though it's not clear whether that's a decision based upon concrete evidence, or as a precaution given some major Footballing events coming up next weekend.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Many people have suffered brutal treatment. One interesting comparison is the plight of the Tibetans. These people have been treated terribly since the Chinese marched in uninvited leading to oppression, death and humiliation unimaginable in the UK. The situation of UK Muslims is nothing like this.

Why don't we hear about Tibetan suicide bombers blowing crowds of people including children up?

An interesting thought.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Jimizo - There are many other conflicts and atrocities that are certainly worthy of discussion, though perhaps not here, within this thread, where the focus upon which is the situation in the UK following the recent Suicide Bombing there.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Sorry to say it, but Britain doesn't have enough soldiers and police to guard every potential target. Rather than a high "ROI" target like a jammed concert hall the next one will be much lower and catch everyone by surprise. There must be a better way to protect people.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

There is no other solution, than to weed them out, and eliminate the threat that they pose, by whatever legal means available.

Something like that was said like that about the IRA campaign but today we have peace.

Libyan terrorists have killed the largest number of people. The PAN AM Lockerbie bombing in 1989 which killed 270 people. The police woman killed outside the Libyan Embassy WPC Yvonne Joyce Fletcher in 1984. Now the Manchester bombing with a further 22 deaths.

Suiide bomber bomber Salman Abedi  had returned from Libya the day before, where he had been for three weeks. Abedi is believed to have travelled to Syria and had 'proven' links with ISIS.

He stopped going to his local mosque because of the anti-ISS sermons. A further three men have been arrested in Manchester.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Jimizo - There are many other conflicts and atrocities that are certainly worthy of discussion, though perhaps not here, within this thread, where the focus upon which is the situation in the UK following the recent Suicide Bombing there.

I think it's a point worth thinking about in this discussion. People have made points about the appalling behaviour of the west in Muslim majority countries, discrimination and demonization fueling jihadis in the UK. Other groups have also suffered these kinds of things without creating a subset of murderous fanatics killing innocents.

This is a worthwhile discussion in my view. Whataboutery along the lines of 'the Irish used to do it' isn't really answer to that question.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

When does a moderate Muslim become a radical Muslim hell bent on death and destruction?

When his family and/or friends are blown up by drones while minding their own business. When his country is invaded by another country that has no business being there. When he is in his homeland and treated like a criminal by virtue of his belief in god. When his fellow countrymen are telling him he needs to be monitored because of his belief in god. When he is harassed at airports because of his name. And so on and so on.

It's all our fault!!

Here are some other possible reasons...

Imams (if that is what they are called) preaching hatred... such as the Danish imam reported this month preaching hatred and even death to the Jews in a mosque in Denmark. (Also referring to Jews as filth).

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39885745

A preacher in a mosque in Britain openly declaring: 'You cannot accept the rule of the kaffir [non-Muslim]. We have to rule ourselves and we have to rule the others.'

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/jan/07/broadcasting.channel4

"Integration" of muslims into Western society, as promised by proponents of multiculturalism, is at best skin deep at worst non-existent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/6631541.stm

Muslim hate preachers in Europe promoting support for ISIS...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/16/anjem-choudary-convicted-of-supporting-islamic-state

Muslim groups demanding separate Sharia law for the UK (don't seem to like the British legal system).

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/16/anjem-choudary-convicted-of-supporting-islamic-state#img-1

Over half of British muslims think homosexuality should be illegal (who taught them that?)

Well, this list could get longer and longer...

I think muslims really need to look hard at their own communities and what is being taught and how that fits with Western values. Any muslims who can't accept Western values should move to Saudi Arabia or a similar place.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Think about this; according to the Daily Telegraph there are 3500 active muslim terror suspects In Great Britain.

In tiny Belgium, there are 18000 (yes, 18000) active muslim terror suspects.

Forget the brave talk about "We will never give in".

Europe - including Great Britain - has already waved the white flag.

Is it too late to roll back the tide?

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Europe - including Great Britain - has already waved the white flag.

What on earth are you on about? Have you ever been to Europe? What white flag? Europe welcomes tolerance and diversity. There's just no stomach for extremist views, be they from preachers of hate or their online equivalents.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

I have read a significant amount over the years on a personal hero, Winston Churchill. I can say with confidence that the author of the "We shall fight them on the beaches..." speech would be spinning in his grave at how Britain has rolled over and offered herself to the forces of evil.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@Toasted Heretic

What do you think of *"*A video of an imam appearing to call for the murder of Jews in a sermon during Friday prayers" ?

(The part "during Friday prayers" almost made me laugh)

It happened in Denmark, of course.

Also, what do you think of this guy?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/17/banned-pakistani-cleric-syed-qadri-preaching-in-britain

We've got your point about the IRA etc etc but what do you think of these examples?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Think about this; according to the Daily Telegraph there are 3500 active muslim terror suspects In Great Britain.

Actually, I think there are 15,000 "people of interest" on a watch list but only "people of interest" unless they break the law, that's it.

it too late to roll back the tide?

Well I guest it just late then and a nation of 50 million plus will be defeated by 3500 muslim terrorists suspects. Maybe we all need to convert now and save our skins.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

The only ones who loose with be the cowards who think this is acceptable! All this has achieved is to strengthen our resolve to defeat this evil! And win we shall!

0 ( +1 / -1 )

If the Islamic terrorists are killing people because it say in the Koran to kill non believers then why did they wait several hundreds of years before starting their campaign since modern terrorism dates from About 1983.

Because you don't know your history.......the Ottoman empire, the Abbasid Caliphate.....etc....

Then you also have the modern day Israel/Palestine conflict that as much as both sides like to claim is over territory has really become about religion.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

There are reports in the British press and on CNN that the U.S. is compromising the investigation into the Manchester bombing. British officials have been complaining that U.S. intelligence services have yet again been leaking shared details, seriously hampering the investigation

As a result, the suspect's name was released too early by U.S. media which might have tipped off other suspects. This is alarming to say the least. The "intelligence community" is an oximoron if ever there was one.

America continues to march in the wrong direction.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/24/europe/manchester-us-leaks-investigation/index.html

5 ( +5 / -0 )

British officials have been complaining that U.S. intelligence services have yet again been leaking shared details, seriously hampering the investigation

Oh my GOD! Unbelievable! How could they be so irresponsible?!

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

as much as both sides like to claim is over territory has really become about religion.

You're joking right?

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

ahh nothing like martial law on ones own citizens to deal with a problem.

Canada instituted martial law to deal with its terrorism crisis in the early 70s. It worked. The terror problem was quickly and forever extinguished. Britain's "outreach" and "community approach" policing over many years are NOT working, as the extensive nature of this attack and other attacks show.

The results speak for themselves.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

police and get rid of all ghettos

Salman Abedi didn't live in a ghetto.

infiltrate mosques that are determined to preach radicalism*

Abedi attended the Manchester Islamic Centre, also known as the Didsbury Mosque, where he is said to have "displayed a "face of hate" after *the imam gave a sermon *denouncing terrorism".

halt, deport and ban radicals from entering the country*

Abedi was born and bred in the UK

Any more brilliant ideas?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Nice way to treat an infested wound. By cleaning around it,crossing your fingers,click your heels and wish upon a star.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Also, Abedi had a place at Salford University but dropped out.

I am guessing that the U.K. State would have picked up most of the tab for that!

However, for Abedi,I guess learning how to maim and kill was more appealing.....

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Canada instituted martial law to deal with its terrorism crisis in the early 70s. It worked.

Canada instituted martial law against a religious group of people within Canada, leaving everyone else free as normal? First I've heard of that.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Meanwhile, Muslims came forward with concerns about Abedi several years ago.

Two members of the public called a special anti-terrorist hotline to report the ISIS killer’s horrific views.

One community worker – who asked not to be identified – said two people who knew Abedi at college made separate calls to the police begging them to take action.

He said: “All of the publicity is about Muslims not coming forward and this shows that they are coming forward and expressing their concerns.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/worried-friends-called-anti-terror-10492183

2 ( +3 / -1 )

One community worker – who asked not to be identified – said two people who knew Abedi at college made separate calls to the police begging them to take action.

Give it a few minutes, and some posters will claim that these guys need to be under watch for associating with a terrorist.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Give it a few minutes, and some posters will claim that these guys need to be under watch for associating with a terrorist.

I'd expect nothing less :-(

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@strangerland

> Canada instituted martial law against a religious group of people within Canada, leaving everyone else free as normal? First I've heard of that.

You should read more. They targeted an ethnic minority, the French, and rounded up community leaders, union leaders, scholars, artists and others. The majority of Canadians of all sides supported it. The action, though harsh, was very short and effective.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/40-years-later-security-and-the-flq/article4328160/?page=all

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@choiwaruoyaji

You only need to google Quran and Violence to find varying explanations as to why these Fundamentalists are attacking us - let's not forget the beheadings of Kidnapped Aid workers - the very people trying to help out in Syria, and elsewhere. These "Islamic" Fundamentalists appear to have latched onto an interpretation of various parts of Islam that demand the elimination of non-believes, i.e. the non-Muslims. There's no reasoning with them, once radicalised, there's no negotiation other than, simply them or us.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

These "Islamic" Fundamentalists appear to have latched onto an interpretation of various parts of Islam that demand the elimination of non-believes, i.e. the non-Muslims.

And the elimination of actual Muslims, as well as other religions.

There's no reasoning with them, once radicalised, there's no negotiation other than, simply them or us.

Radicals can turn, though. Look at Maajid Nawaz - now a lib dem and founder of Quilliam.

And it's not just former Islamic radicals. Conservative Councillor Maria Gatland (Croydon, UK) is a former member of the IRA.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Toasted Heretic

Good points, though I'm referring to Religious fundamentalism.

The IRA was not entirely a Religious Fanatical group, their main goal was/is the unification of Ireland. You can look up Irish_Republican_Army upon Wikipedia. Jerry Adams, and Martin McGuinness are also good examples of former IRA members turned mainstream Politicians.

As for Maajid Nawaz, he does appear to be an interesting case contrary to my statement above, though he appears to have been more on the "Political" Radical side, than those willing to carry out acts of violence.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The IRA was not entirely a Religious Fanatical group, their main goal was/is the unification of Ireland. You can look up Irish_Republican_Army upon Wikipedia. Jerry Adams, and Martin McGuinness are also good examples of former IRA members turned mainstream Politicians.

Their actual goal also included a Marxist ideology for the country. Or the Officials at least. The Provos initially didn't follow that particular doctrine. The late Martin McGuinness became an exemplary politician, something his political foes would even admit (the late Ian Paisely and his son Ian Paisely Jnr).

Gerry Adams is a more complicated individual and leaves a lot of upcoming Republican politicians and supporters cold. I guess history will judge.

As for Maajid Nawaz, he does appear to be an interesting case contrary to my statement above, though he appears to have been more on the "Political" Radical side, than those willing to carry out acts of violence.

Yes, although there are others who are trying to influence impressionable youngsters to follow a path of peace, rather than radicalism. It's a long process, no doubt.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

What should we do with with people from the UK who have visited Syria, Pakistan or Libya, contacted terrorist groups there and then come back to the UK (these are muslim people we are talking about)

For one thing... Why did they come back??!! That's what I can't understand.

They seem to fundamentally disagree with our way of life but yet they come back.

It's a mystery.

But anyway... what should we do with these people?

Any ideas anybody?

Just ignore them.

Monitor them?

Put tags around their ankles?

Ask them to be good boys and girls?

Anybody have any ideas?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

What should we do with with people from the UK who have visited Syria, Pakistan or Libya, contacted terrorist groups there and then come back to the UK (these are muslim people we are talking about)

For one thing... Why did they come back??!! That's what I can't understand.

They seem to fundamentally disagree with our way of life but yet they come back.

It's a mystery.

But anyway... what should we do with these people?

Any ideas anybody?

Just ignore them.

Monitor them?

Put tags around their ankles?

Ask them to be good boys and girls?

Anybody have any ideas?

First of all "we" should stop using "we" all the time. That might be a start.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Big holiday weekend in the UK with many major music and sporting events like the FA Cup final at Wembley. Today there were changing of the guards at Buckingham Palace and Windsor Castle. Major events in Manchester too.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Big holiday weekend in the UK with many major music and sporting events like the FA Cup final at Wembley. Today there were changing of the guards at Buckingham Palace and Windsor Castle. Major events in Manchester too.

Good. Life goes on, as it should. Otherwise a minority of terrorists gain the upper hand.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Yes, by all means lets all go out in major gatherings in England this weekend as if nothing is happening so we can all hold hands and say "We are strong!". Meanwhile several children have just been buried and dozens more maimed for life. Unfortunately life doesn't go on as usual for the parents who just lost their children.

That'll show the radical islamic terrorists plotting their next deeds this very minute

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

The British people will carry on as they always do. It shows terrorists and the wider world that the violence will not divide them. They are stronger than that.

The weakness lies in the actions of the bombers and those that seek to capitalise on tragedy and mayhem.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Yes, by all means lets all go out in major gatherings in England this weekend as if nothing is happening so we can all hold hands and say "We are strong!". Meanwhile several children have just been buried and dozens more maimed for life. Unfortunately life doesn't go on as usual for the parents who just lost their children.

You're right. Their children are gone and it's a tragedy. But if you allow yourself to be terrified by the terrorists, then they win. That's why it's called terrorism.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Makes one wonder why progressives are against Trump for wanting to vet immigrants and refugees from terror prone regions.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

No, the weakness lies in leftist politicians and media who have the nation on its knees already. They have sold out their own people and do the bidding of their muslim masters.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

But if you allow yourself to be terrified by the terrorists, then they win. That's why it's called terrorism.

.

Nope, thank god I live in a country that has a grasp of the situation. Strangerland, would you care to allow your children to attend any one of the mass gatherings in the UK this weekend? With the terror alert at "critical"?

You and I both know the answer to that. A resounding "No".

You reap what you sow.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Yeah I would. The likelihood of an attack this weekend is probably lower than any other given weekend.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Makes one wonder why progressives are against Trump for wanting to vet immigrants and refugees from terror prone regions.

No one is against that. But I suspect you used the word 'vet' incorrectly.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

@clamenza

Meanwhile several children have just been buried and dozens more maimed for life. Unfortunately life doesn't go on as usual for the parents who just lost their children. That'll show the radical islamic terrorists plotting their next deeds this very minute

There have been no funerals and the bodies of those killed won't be released to their families until autopsies and reports have been complete. Could take several weeks and will be very public affairs attended by tens and even hundreds of thousands. The Manchester police have arrested most of the suspects involved with the crime.

There will alway bee those making further plots domestic and foreign.

Unfortunately life doesn't go on as usual for the parents who just lost their children.

The families of all the victims will be in a period of mourning. The mother of one 15-year-old girl who was killed stood up in public in Manchester, and although very stressed and grieved from the lost of her beloved daughter, she told people not to give in to terrorism and go out and enjoy their lives. That would be the best way to remember her daughter. A brave mother.

No, the weakness lies in leftist politicians and media who have the nation on its knees already. They have sold out their own people and do the bidding of their muslim masters.

Don't know which papers you are reading or which channels you are watching but the government of the country is conservative and many leaders and people from the muslim communities have expressed their outrage and also visited the memorial in Manchester.

Not all Muslims, in fact, the majority of them, don't support terrorism. But maybe someone on the internet who frequently posts alt-facts and misinformation is someone supporting the aims of terrorism.

Nope, thank god I live in a country that has a grasp of the situation. Strangerland, would you care to allow your children to attend any one of the mass gatherings in the UK this weekend? With the terror alert at "critical"?

Then I guess you don't live in Europe or Russia. Million of British people this bank holiday weekend will attend many large events including sports and others.

The cowardly action of one will not prevent the living and enjoyment of life by the millions. Remember the slogan from Manchester, you might find some solace in your heart and concerns.

"Manchester City is 'United' and will never be defeated by terrorism."

5 ( +5 / -0 )

sorry zichi, but for all your brave talk, Manchester was just defeated by terrorism. And rather than face the problem of radical Islamic terrorism, the govt and media only urge people to carry on as usual as if nothing has, and is, happening. Utterly irresponsible and cowardly.

Slogans won't protect children from bombs.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

@clamenza 

sorry zichi, but for all your brave talk, Manchester was just defeated by terrorism.

not according to the families of the victims nor the citizens of Britain nor the citizens of Manchester.

And rather than face the problem of radical Islamic terrorism, the govt and media only urge people to carry on as usual as if nothing has, and is, happening. Utterly irresponsible and cowardly.

The Manchester police have made remarkable progress, even by anyone's standard in arresting the suspects and obtaining substantial amounts of evidence and materials. I don't believe anyone is behaving like nothing happened, but may I suggest you read one of the better quality papers and not just the gutter press to get some idea of what happened and how the people are reacting. You say that people who are willing to go on with their lives, even at the recommendation of one of the childrens mothers, are cowards, then you sense of reality, is badly warped and beyond redemption.

Slogans won't protect children from bombs.

No they don't. So all the security forces, domestic and foreign, need to continue to monitor the situation so that it can prevent further attacks and add to the more than 15,000 suspected attacks they have already foiled. Certainly, there needs to be an inquiry over this bombing and how the security forces could not prevent it from happening. But in no country is there a guaranteed safety against acts of terrorism or violent acts of crime.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

would you care to allow your children to attend any one of the mass gatherings in the UK this weekend? With the terror alert at "critical"?

That's what people do in the UK. For years. They don't allow a tiny, tiny minority of violent miscreants to dictate to them.

You reap what you sow.

Almost sounds like schadenfreude.

sorry zichi, but for all your brave talk, Manchester was just defeated by terrorism.

In some alternate universe, possibly but Manchester has not been defeated by anyone. It holds its head up high, just as it did on previous occasions. This is not imaginary sloganeering; this is the reality of life in the UK. Somewhere you've obviously never lived but seem determined to denigrate, for reasons only known to yourself.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@clamenza

Slogans won't protect children from bombs.

In 50 years there have been just three bombing by Islamic extremists.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Cleo: "Abedi was born and bred in the UK". 

Yes, but raised with what values? Are there and have there ever been "shared values" in the U.K.? If so, what are they or what were they?

Zichi: "In 50 years there have been just three bombing by Islamic extremists."

Allow me to reset the time frame. In the last 4 days there has been one bombing by Islamic extremists (in the U.K.).

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Bill Murphy

Its also important to look at the events historically too, just like the number of plots foiled. It does not change what happened in Manchester, which is and will remain tragic. Especially when people making comments to make the situation to appear worse than what it is, which is too often with people like clamenza.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Theresa May has reduced Britain's threat level from critical to severe.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Allow me to reset the time frame. In the last 4 days there has been one bombing by Islamic extremists (in the U.K.).

And in the few hundred 4-day periods previous to that, there were zero.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I guess we've all see the following:

22-05-13 The terrorist murder of British soldier Lee Rigby 

22-03-16 Brussels Bombing

22-07-16 Munich Massacre

22-03-17 Westminster Attack

22-05-17 Manchester

22-07-17 ????

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

I guess we've all seen this video from the UKs Channel 4 news:

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/868879610020278272

“Terrorism simply has no religion.” Imams from across Britain march in Manchester to preach a message of unity and solidarity

0 ( +1 / -1 )

just a coincidence then that the British government has admitted that the number of suspected extremist jihadi Muslims is somewhere between 24000 to 30000 in Britain.

I think it has a very clear religion in Britain.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

I think it has a very clear religion in Britain.

Well, that's your opinion. It's completely misinformed and unqualified but there you go. Your opinion.

I could post endless links to ordinary Muslims (British or otherwise) condemining extremism but you would still have your particular opinion.

The extremists will not hold sway & neither will the uninformed.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

No, there's a watch list with 23,000 names of "people of interest" but are not watched 24/7 because if one person needed a watch team of 5 members, then it would take 115,000 security people. None of these people have broken the laws in any way. There's another list of "people of threat" and there are about 3,000 people who are watched 24/7 and this should have included the Manchester bomber who managed to go under the radar. There's also a critical list of about 1,000 people who have gone to places like Syria to fight with the ISS.

Since the bombing, the government have decided to deny reentry to the UK of these people. There are also Jihadists ho have been found guilty of a crime and are now serving a prison term. Those people need to be separated from other prisoners to prevent them radicalizing others.

There's no coincidences here, and the government have been giving the facts for years.

Its also interesting how many Muslims and their leaders have visited the Manchester memorial square and expressed their outrage over the bombing which killed 7 children, 15 adults and injured more than 100 people. Yesterday a survivor of the 7/7 bombing, committed suicide over the Manchester event, so I guess we can add one more death.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@Toasted Heretic I have set foot in the UK, and my dozen or so British friends would laugh at your insult that I'm anti-British. Can't say I know any muslims personally, but as I mentioned before - even though you pretend to not notice - I'm sure the vast majority are peaceful and I'd welcome them as neighbours provided they allow me the same respect I allow them.

But heres where we differ; I call for an honest debate about what is being taught in British mosques (or any mosque) by the same Imams who have the gall to say "terrorism has no religion" when the whole world equates it with just that.

In addition, I oppose the open-door policies with mass migration to Western cities that have proven disastrous.

You don't even want the debate.

So now that I've indulged you, do me a favour and tell me what you think of Radical Islamic Terrorism. You don't seem to be able to even utter the phrase...

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

The Manchester bombing has made the people of the city, stronger, closer, more determined to beat the hatred by all the peoples. A bee is a sign of freedom and people are lining up outside the tattoo parlors to have a bee.

Its sad how some people just suck up the hatred of the bomber to further increase their own hatred and use it against others physically or verbally or just by spreading hatred and misinformation.

The people of Manchester and all the British people will never be defeated by those who only know hatred in their hearts.

There needs to be a review of what is happening. If a mosque is giving sermons of terror then it should be closed down and the Iman arrested and jailed or deported. I don't agree with Sharia law which should be abolished, with all citizens living by the same laws. Faith schools need monitoring to ensure hatred isn't being taught. Burqa's in public should be banned.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

I have set foot in the UK, and my dozen or so British friends would laugh at your insult that I'm anti-British. Can't say I know any muslims personally,

You should tell your mates that Manchester was "defeated". See if they have a good old chortle. Of course, you don't know any Muslims. That much is clear to anyone following your narrative here.

but as I mentioned before - even though you pretend to not notice - I'm sure the vast majority are peaceful and I'd welcome them as neighbours provided they allow me the same respect I allow them

Then why do you continually disrespect the vast majority when you post statements like "Muslim overlords/master" and so on?

But heres where we differ; I call for an honest debate about what is being taught in British mosques (or any mosque) by the same Imams who have the gall to say "terrorism has no religion" when the whole world equates it with just that.

The whole world does not equate religion with terrorism. Rather a vocal lot of far right voices seek to equate Islam with terrorism. I'd say the Imams in that clip are more clued up about it than some here, wouldn't you?

In addition, I oppose the open-door policies with mass migration to Western cities that have proven disastrous.

You don't even want the debate.

The majority of recent terror attacks in the West have come from people born and bred in those countries. Including non Muslims such as the killer of Jo Cox, the likes of Anders Breivik in Norway etc.

So now that I've indulged you, do me a favour and tell me what you think of Radical Islamic Terrorism. You don't seem to be able to even utter the phrase...

I have condemned extremism on numerous occasions. But I'm not playing the division game.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Wow. It just keeps getting uglier and uglier.

The Didsbury mosque Salmon Abedi attended recently hosted an anti-Semite cleric who urged for the death of gays and non-believers.

The mosque – which has made a show of insisting it played no role in Manchester bomber Salman Abedi's radicalization – hasn't even bothered to remove the evidence from its YouTube page.

Yesterday's Muslim show of unity insisting "terrorism has no religion" looks like an empty promise.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Yesterday's Muslim show of unity insisting "terrorism has no religion" looks like an empty promise.

Only to those who believe all Muslims think and act the same.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Only to those who believe all Muslims think and act the same

.

fortunately there are a great many Muslims who acknowledge the hateful sermons in many mosques which lead to terrorism and other violence. Like the Imam in Australia whose interview criticizing Muslim religious leaders went viral in the past 2 days.

God bless him as he has been spat upon by his own people for speaking out

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

If only there were more Muslims who would do the right thing and speak out against what was being taught in their mosques instead of circling the wagons.

If only...

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Have read that Internment is being proposed. Contain those who are under suspicion within Camps manned by the Army until proven innocent.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

If only there were more Muslims who would do the right thing and speak out against what was being taught in their mosques instead of circling the wagons.

If only...

You mean like this?

https://muslimscondemn.com/

More here

https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2017/mar/26/muslims-condemn-terrorism-stats

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/23/uk-muslim-leaders-condemn-cowardly-london-attack

https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2015/nov/24/why-its-wrong-to-demand-that-muslims-condemn-isis

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Yes, there are always the smattering of mea culpas by a very tiny fraction before the cameras after the latest slaughter.

Not quite the worldwide self-reflection the world needs, Toasted Heretic. Not by a long shot.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Did you actaully read those links?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Meaningless PR

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

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