bokway comments

Perhaps the 'conspiracy' consists in the apparent collusion between the two alleged victims after the event. There is more to this than meets the eye.

"Or were pre-industrial revolution people more altruistic and the industrial revolution turned people away from being altruistic into money-grubbers? I'll go see what Weber wrote."

Borscht - well done. You are quite right:altruism was destroyed by the emergence of the market economy and its need for a new doctrine - Consumerism. This latter is easily transcribed to the rabid egocentrism - 'me first' mentality that so readily characterises all modern societies. Both Marx and Weber are clear about the preconditions and 'costs' associated with the emergence of early English capitalism, and the English case was, in essence, the model exported to the rest of the World along with Imperial Colonialism. Enjoy your encounter with Max!

Borscht - Thanks for responding. I can't accept your premise that people cannot change or that they haven't done so in the last 20,000 years. Clearly for you the agrarian, industrial and democratic revolutions never occured or had no real consequence for human development? Hmn . . .and you were reminding us to read history?

The issue here is really about awareness - especially of alternatives. Consciousness (what passes for awareness) is typically false: the masses have no real objective understanding of their location in society or history. Capitalism is less than 400 years old and you need to read some history (try Max Weber - Economy and Society)to become more familiar with the path of economic and societal development and decline. So-called 'modernisation' is far more insidious than socialism - it blandly homogenises, neutralises and eradicates alternatives, kills all ideologies, and leaves its adherants smugly unaware of their collective imprisonment in history. Thanks for making me think, Borscht. Wanna take this discussion to the Forum? Some may find it useful. Compliments of the Season to you.

Borscht - never let a good story get in the way of the facts, eh? Omarbabilon is equally lop-sided. Marx wasn't a 'Marxist' because he saw the fatal flaws in all systems theories: the 'vanguard' must eventually wither away along with the State, leading to a true 'dictatorship of the proletariat', arising spontaneously and independently. Previous 'socialist' states have never gotten past the first stage because the annointed leaders (Stalin, Castro, Chavez, etc.) never let go of the prize. But all you salon-marxist fear-mongers now have great difficulty explaining why the State needs to bail-out corporate capitalism. If the state owns or invests in the banks/finance corporations and car companies then that is socialism under a corporate guise. As Marx predicted, the capitalists will manufacture and sell to the socialists the very rope used to hang them! I can't wait . . .