My concern is, that the opposition to the trapping & killing of dolphins is sometimes perceived to be 'anti-Japanese' or in some way racist. I can sincerely say, that certainly for myself and for those I am personally in contact with, that race does not come into it at all. The opposition is entirely aimed at the practice and those perpetrating the practice. Yes, passions do run high, but if nothing else gets successfully conveyed in this discussion, it should be that whatever nationality the fishermen were, the opposition would be the same. And yes, as I've said before, I know that similar things occur elsewhere in the world, and you need to know that protesters actively oppose those also.
There is a great deal of animal cruelty in the world and it crosses racial and cultural boundaries. If nothing else, let's not let this descend into a race issue - for it most definitely is not.
And on this we agree, if moderating our conversation and showing mutual respect is the most constructive way forward, then that is what we should all do, on both sides. This is just my opinion, but whatever gets us all talking has got to be the best route as far as I can see, and I know huge efforts are being made to do just that.
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You know Chopri - quite a lot has been achieved on this page, but you represent the small percentage who seem like you will always have your eyes and ears covered. You imagine that individual races can prevail here on this ever shrinking planet - but we all have to work together, without boundaries, to better understand each other and to value and support our natural environments.
As I have said (many times) here on this thread, sure - there are many issues worldwide that need addressing. However, this practice is definitely one of them. It does not fit with modern day thinking and civilised approaches to animal welfare. This is not a 'westerm' versus Japan issue, not at all. We are all one human race. We have one environment and maybe we need to put down the barriers of country versus country and share values which address progress and compassion. I
I've learnt here that for the fishermen of Taiji that is a complex issue (in more informed exchanges) - but keeping on with the anti 'foreign' attitude and accusations of people being 'cocksure' are never, ever going to achieve anything - except more hostility. You're angry about the views of people with opposite views. You've been pretty insulting yourself to be honest at times, even though a good percentage of people are keen to engage in constructive discussion. Surely that is the only way forward? It's a small planet at the end of the day.....and we all share it.......and we are only custodians of it for our children and grandchildren.
The world IS watching in ever increasing horror at these practices, I am afraid - that is just the truth' and it would not matter where in the world it was taking place - this slaughter belongs in dark distant history. You may not agree, but it is how it is perceived.
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It'sMe: It's very helpful what you have said about the fishermen, as this gives insight into the situation. Also the points you raise about whale watching etc need looking into. I imagine that people better informed than me can respond to that, although there could be scope to re energise those programmes and bring investment and resources to the area through tourism.
Whale/dolphin watching boats always have long queues wherever I see them - kids (& adults) can never get enough of seeing them for real in their natural environment. It's never the same on the internet as you don't get the same experience. We all spend so much time sat at computers (like now for instance) but nothing like actually being there and seeing it for yourself. I guess it's a lot to do with how these things are promoted and developed as well - and that takes support and investment, I acknowledge that.
I take your points onboard, especially about the species that are closer to extinction, because that is matter for all of us and our children.
Am glad we finally got to talking ;)
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@It'sme I agree that the only way forward is for better understanding. It's true passions do run high when people believe deeply about something - again, as you say that has applied to both sides of the argument. A good thing to come from this thread would be a willingness to try to understand the other side's perspective more. I am trying to do this on another forum at the moment with pro hunt people. It's been very hard, but now we are talking and finding out genuinely how the other person sees it. This is the best any of us can do while we're communicating via the internet - making contacts and trying to understand better. It's never going to be easy, I guess but we should try.
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@chopri - I agree that in order for any progress to be made, there needs to be mutual respect. It can be tough though for protesters when they are impassioned and appalled by what they see.
If we keep going like this, we may end up with a basis for reasonable discussion - and that would be quite an achievement, given where we started from! I pray that I live long enough to complete this process ;)
Tigermoth: definitely agree - the shows are a big component of this and there's no point in pretending otherwise.
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No, didn't go to school to learn how to persuade people to stop such attrocities, that is true - but then clearly you didn't either, because you resort to being impolite in the face of people expressing their views. It is hard to quantify or produce proof as you call it, for views that a practice is cruel. True feelings do come from the brain, or from the heart or soul depending on which way you look at it. But at least those who oppose this practice do have feelings of compassion for those creatures.
You're right, it seems highly likely that you @chopri will never be persuaded - because you do not seem to want to even consider the other side's position. However many other people are coming round to considering issues around animal welfare and to wanting their children to grow up in a more caring and compassionate world. And we should all agree on this one, that could never be a bad thing?
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@chopri The protests will continue and those who protest will continue to try and comprehend how any human being can stand waste deep in blood stained sea, knifing terrified family groups of highly intelligent mammals to death. It's that simple - we can't understand that part, the part that involved terrible suffering.
All the statistics etc are irrelevant to the suffering caused. That is all.
The part you don't seem to understand is that some human beings cannot bear to know about, let alone witness, such awful acts of cruelty - praying for their souls afterwards does not minimise the suffering. The acknowledgement that these creatures have souls makes the method of their death even worse surely?
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Yes I do understand - you keep saying 'understand?'. It seems that you rightly expect people to look at things from your angle - and that is an important part of any process, but tell me how much you reflect on the points being put forward? You take it as an attack on you personally, but it is opposition to a particular practice.
The protesters are trying to raise the issue of the level of suffering. You may be right that people won't listen readily, but this is no reason not to have the debate or to try and convey the horror felt at the violence and suffering to these animals during a long and horrifying process. And that @Chopri is the point, that after all these exchanges you don't seem to want to understand - so please stop saying 'understand?' - for I am glad I do not understand such cruelty, and I never will, whatever the nationality of the person perpetrating it.
So please do not seek to make this a racial matter, for it is not. Cruelty is cruelty. The propaganda lies much closer to home.
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Before you start the name calling (in this case you have labelled us all as 'hypocrites') you should know that the vast majority of people opposing the dolphin slaughter ARE involved in campaigns against the attrocities you list. This is because the protesters are motivated against animal cruelty NOT against any particular nation. This 'anti foreigner' mood is most unhelpful - and serves only to alienate further. Animal cruelty knows no boundaries, as you have pointed out - it occurs in many places, and in many places people appeal for more compassion. Incidentally hostility towards the other countries you mention is not helpful - it is the cruel practices themselves that are the subject of the debate. Where did military alliances come into the discussion?
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The Office : I was reporting what is occurring in a global campaign on the internet right now. I was making the point that if people cannot influence this by debate or intervention - then inevitably other means are used. And if you search the campaign sites you will see there ARE calls to boycott, probably born out of frustration and continued horror as the slaughter starts to unfold again.
I am not advocating that here - I merely seek to be engaged in the debate, because debate and communication between those with differing views is of course crucial. Boycott may be a side effect of break down in communication though I fear.
An observation, rather than a suggestion.
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It's hard debating this on here Clare, given what some of the posts are like - but all the while we are raising awareness of the issue and while people are thinking about it, and that has to be a good thing. It is also a fact that there are growing moves towards boycotting Japanese products because of this issue and this thread can convey that message loud & clear - even though we get the same old replies back over and over! The size of the global campaign on the internet is astonishing, and the effects of that will be widespread.
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Within the last hours a pod of 12 dolphins were rounded up and trapped in Taiji. They then took many minutes to die and the screams of the animals could be heard for a long distance. The sea, as usual was red with their blood. This scene is reminiscent of barbaric methods used in the distant past. It is disgraceful that such suffering should be imposed on highly intelligent beings over such a long period (the hunt to trap them also lasted a long time).
This is not a foreign vs Japan issue as suggested in the posts here - it is a human response to needless and horrendous animal suffering. We are not any particular nationality attacking the Japanese people, whom we all care for and respect as part of the global community - and who have been very much in our thoughts in these difficult times. It is questioning a practice which, by today's standards is horrific. It is difficult to imagine wanting to be part of stabbing and killing thrashing, terrified animals in this way. It is very very hard to understand, but understand we must, for that is the only way to move forward to bring an end to this needless suffering.
I agree Nicky, the captivity of dolphins in aquaria etc is also unacceptable. These animals swim up to 100 miles a day, in close knit family groups. To separate them and trap them in an artificial environment is a life sentence - and one where they have to use their intelligence to perform tricks in order to be fed. Trouble is, people don't think about it that way when they buy tickets to see these dolphin shows :(
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I thought the moderator earlier asked that the thread stopped mentioning longevity? It is totally irrelevant and somewhat misleading. The debate is about the horrific slow death these dolphins endure - and the fact that the practice is reminiscent of a dark bygone age when human beings were more primitive. And if such a practice was going on in my country, I would warmly welcome the comments of people from other parts of the world to try and open the minds of people who rigidly refused to consider the barbarity of the situation. Understand?
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Oh right - an example of you being respectful and polite is it? Silly? No, actually we know very well that you don't give a damn about environmental issues and animal welfare. Your posts merely confirm this. And with regard to the tsunami many people worldwide joined in offering support and condolences for your losses. Many more are trying to raise awareness about the exposure to radioactivity - clearly nothing positive that comes from outside is viewed in anyway other than cynically. It is interesting to note that the very next morning after the typhoon the boats were out to trap more dolphins.
You say you don't give a damn. We know you don't give a damn. The difference is, we DO give a damn, about the welfare of people AND animals. That is what you find so hard to understand, because comments like yours show no capacity for compassion and only 'anti-foreign' hostility.
We only ask for you to consider the points we make, as in any reasoned debate, without recourse to ridiculing a different point of view.
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There are a lot of LOL comments - but not from the protesters. There is sadly nothing to laugh about here. It is absolutely tragic actually. The dolphins who died in the pens, despite many pleas to release them as the storm approached - died by being battered by the storm against the bars of the cage in violent waves. They were showing distress well before the storm as they sensed it approaching. There was no excuse for that. There is nothing but sadness and lack of compassion in this situation - and yes, horrific cruelty.
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@ChopriCana Are you a whaler or dolphin hunter? Reason for asking is that for an average person - you are mighty heated up about this debate! Be honest now, do you have a commercial reason for all these very long, angry posts?
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@CopriCana Have you every considered anger management? You are virtually frothing at the mouth. My posts have attemtped to be calm (although admittedly direct). Your constantly refer to the US - who I agree, like ALL nations, have their fair share of issues to redress. I am not from the US, and this article is headed 'Global Protests...' and it IS a global protest. So calm down and engage in reasoned debate instead of acting like you're a wielding a metaphorical axe (or should that be a harpoon?) You show a great deal of hostility to outside countries in your attitude, but we are now becoming a global community - so people from other countries do feel they should comment if environmental issues are taking place which affect the wider picture. Deforestation is a good example, The oceans are another....
You brought the 'cocksure' component into the debate. Most (although admittedly not all) comment on this thread has been reasoned and calm. Surely the purpose of engaging in comments like this on a given topic, is to acknowledge that others may disagree with your position.
I note with interest that you did not respond to my point which related to the refusal to release the trapped dolphins prior to the storm - a decision which led to their death. Too keen to fire hostilities rather than respond to a point?
As I stated earlier - this debate shows that the differences are more than cultural, and in your particular case it feels like the chasm is more inter-galactic. Clearly the notion of a 'global village' is a lot further away than some of us hoped!
Thanks also for repeating my final sentence - glad you agree ;)
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What has become apparent during the debate here (and debate is a good thing), is that the way these issues are perceived are not just 'cultures apart' - but we may as well be from different planets! It is virtually impossible to understand the reasoning and justifications put forward and the lack of compassion for these creatures. I had a message from a dolphin hunt supporter, asking me about the cruelty perpetrated by whales when they catch fish. It's almost beyond belief that such ridiculous & flawed arguments can be put forward.
While we're acknowledging the chasm between us, think about the persistent refusal to release the penned dolphins as the typhoon approached, so that they were battered to death. I guess you prefer to have dead dolphins in a pen, than no dolphins at all.....?
The people who oppose these practices are from all over the world and the sentiments are not anti-japanes, merely anti cruelty. The constant references to longevity are irrelevant, as people all around the developed world now live into their 90's and 100's. It's true also, that cruel practices exist elsewhere in the world, and it's likely that activists are targeting them also, and will continue to for as long as it takes. The economic pressures of a world repulsed by these slaughters may well equate into a universal (financial) language - for it seems the love of this cruelty and suffering means that the voices of reason are ignored.
While you prepare the next batch of toxic and hate filled replies, just spare a moment to think of the fear and terrible suffering these practices cause. The world watches on. We can only protest - the karmic outcome in these supposedly 'more enlightened' times, will be yours.
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15 dolphins died in the pens during the violent storms in Taiji today, 2nd September, despite international pleas for them to be released. These were arrogantly ignored and the poor creatures perished due to total lack of humanity. SHAME SHAME SHAME on you and your whole community for allowing this. All respect now dwindling.......live with your consciences if you have them! SHAME on you.
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@Tahoochi - well my rant only helped temporarily! From your post it is clear, that you do show compassion and I am sure many of your fellow countrymen do. The point, which is admittedly quite hard to convey, is that the trapping and slaughter of dolphins, which are, by any definition highly evolved mammals is incomprehendible to many people. Have you seen the footage of the dolphins in South America, who work co-operatively with the fishermen - driving fish into their nets, so that they can pick up some of the stray ones? They turn up every morning at the same spot, and the fishermen are waiting for them - this has gone on for several generations of dolphins & fishermen alike. These intelligent creatures are worthy of more than being treated like 'big fish'.
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After reading the callous and inhumane replies on this topic, it is no wonder that these attrocities which shock the rest of the world are still going on in Japan. Can it be true that the whole population shares this primitive view? Is all you can talk about, how long lived you are? You will have to live with a great deal on your conscience with this total lack of humanity and compassion. One word: Karma!
The only thing needed for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing. ~ Edmund Burke.
Where are your good men?! Where is the desire to adjust to new understandings? All that is evident here is arrogant stubborness and a desire to look 'special' - well you're not special and your country is stained by your heartless approach. I pray that some of your people do not wish to be associated with this.
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Posted in: Tokyo reports 3,546 coronavirus cases
Posted in: Tokyo reports 3,546 coronavirus cases