Gavinova comments

I have noticed the pay for ALTs has dropped a lot. Difficult to see anything much more than 250,000 yen a month on the gaijinpot ads.

Yes, it is just a matter of time before they have another crack at Hezbollah. Crushing Hamas doesn't really impress anyone. They just need to manufacture the right pretext again. The more Netanyahu is in ga-ga land, the more likely war is to happen.

Oh god, please not Netanyahu.

That was your first post on this topic. I am glad we are in agreement however.

A big, heavy dude was sitting on me and I stuck a pin in his b@tt whereupon he turned on me and used his brass knuckles on my face and broke my jaw.

I could have avoided that if only I hadn't used my pin.

Heh...Maybe you could have avoided the pin in your arse if you were not starving and imprisoning the dude. Your argument is flawed if you apply the same standards to both parties.

grafton,

That was a nice post from the Geneva Convention.

Now you have to try to apply it correctly with a factual basis.

"From Time Immemorial," by Joan Peters was a hoax book. It is not taken seriously by any serious scholar on the topic.

Superlib,

Non-sequitur. The question still stands: What would you describe as a proportionate response?

I think that Hamas military targets are okay. I do not think that Government buildings and Universities etc are military targets. There is NO EVIDENCE that they are being used for military purposes and a threat to Israel.

I tend to agree with Human Rights Watch statement;

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/12/30/israelhamas-civilians-must-not-be-targets

Firing rockets into civilian areas with the intent to harm and terrorize Israelis has no justification whatsoever, regardless of Israel's actions in Gaza...At the same time, Israel should not target individuals and institutions in Gaza solely because they are part of the Hamas-run political authority, including ordinary police. Only attacks on military targets are permissible, and only in a manner that minimizes civilian casualties.

MikeBarrymore ,

I agree. The actions of Israel are unjustifiable.

Have a happy new year and I hope for peace in the Middle East for 2009!

The Palestinians so not want peace. They want all Israelis dead.

I think you will find many want a one state solution but few want "all Israelis dead". I am sorry you have come to this opinion.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. Should the world have sent them Christmas presents?

The Palestinian people elected their own Government and now must live with the consequences.

Terrorist organization in accordance to who? The US and Israel? If we apply the definition of what is a terrorist I think you find Hamas is certainly a terrorist organization but what does that make Israel and the US?

As I told you before we must apply the same standards to others as we do to ourselves or else it is impossible to have a rational debate.

bobbafett

But the Government of Israel does not exists to completely eradicate the Earth of Palestinians. In fact they have persevered with them for a long long time when no other country would even accept them. The Arab countries use the Palestine's for their own anti semitic agenda, with no real heart for the Palestinian people.

You still have to apply the same moral standards to all human beings if you are to have a rational debate about a topic. I do not want to discuss about other Arab nations treatment of the Palestinians but I agree it is appalling. In my opinion until recently the Israel Government has been trying to eradicate the population of the Palestinians...now they have lowered their aims to an apartheid like solution.

Hamas need to change their charter. You are correct there. But this is not what I mean about applying the same moral standards.

Israel has tried so much diplomacy with these people for a long time and what do they do in return? Elect a terrorist group as a Government that is sworn to the destruction of Israel. Counter wise every election in Israel is fought on the basis of obtaining peace with its neighbors, not war.

I would like to talk further about the negotiations with Arafat etc but not now. I think diplomatic efforts have been poor on both sides. You negotiate with your enemies not your friends. Egypt, Jordan etc have been great enemies of Israel in the past, and now have normal relationships. It could be done with Hamas too in my opinion.

So My analogy, which was childish for Mr. Smiths purpose, stands, and on the side of Israel.

It can stand for Israel...but you can also apply it to the Palestinians. Both sides are essentially terrorist bullies. It just happens that Israel is the strongest bully with the strongest friends.

Superlib,

I appreciate you seriousness and excellent sources of information but I have to disagree with your argument.

The mere fact that Israel was letting limited supplies of humanitarian aid into Gaza is not a positive for Israel. (under much international pressure) It just underlines the helplessness and impoverished nature of the citizens of Gaza and the fact they are under the complete control of Israel in a prison like environment.

we know that Gaza is a cease pool of human misery at the hands of Israel sanctions and control.

As you said prisoner release was a goodwill gesture to Abbas - adversary to Hamas. Nothing to do with Hamas.

You can lay some of the blame with Hamas for rocket fire. But one needs to apply the same moral judgment on Israel. why would Hamas continue the cease-fire when they are being starved into death, poverty, disease and hopelessness.

bobbafett,

Your analogy makes little sense. You can also apply it to the Palestinian side if you want. That is the problem with your reasoning. You fail to apply the same moral standards to Palestinians as you do to the Israelis.

adamantine,

I see you have supplied a link from Ann Coulter's favourite site to advertise. Even if you assume this happens to a limited extent, it does not excuse the mountains of reports and evidence of killings of innocent Palestinian civilians who were not even near a "Hamas security post" (whatever function that has) or other arguable legitimate target etc.

smithinjapan,

Yes, but to me that is not using someone as a human shield. Gaza is the most densely populated area of the world. Civilians will be injured and killed. Thus brings to the point that the military option is not a problem solver anyway. The only option for Israel is to accept the consensus of UN 242 if they are actually interested in peace or at least minimalizing the threats against it.

Otto said:

They are going to push for another couple of days, bomb a few more school houses and kill about 100 to 200 more women and children (on top of the Hamas security agents)

Those Hamas security agents are always hiding behind women and children...

I am unsure about this factually. There are no real reports etc that indicate this. You hear a lot of Israeli spokespeople say it. If you think about it. The key to Hamas's survival is the support of the local population. If they are using civilians as human shields I doubt their popular support would last long.

Israel doesn't want a cease-fire or halt because they want to finish Hamas or at least crack their skulls and teach them a lesson at whatever cost. No point in playing games here. It is standard Israel behavior.

Just depends if the propaganda machine can keep public opinion on their side for long enough.

TonyUS,

An interesting opinion. Thank you for sharing. But I disagree with you on a number of points.

Israel do fire missiles into densely populated areas if you look at the recent 2006 Lebanon war and the use of cluster bombs as one example. Secondly, methods such as starvation and denial of medical equipment into the Gaza area incur the same result as bombings...civilian deaths. It is just more slow. Israel do not hold any moral high ground in regard to disregard for the well being of civilian life in my opinion.

In regard to the Gaza strip. If you look at reports from Israel human rights groups and statements from Israel journalists and politicians, etc we know that the Gaza was never given to the Palestinians in the form of free land, it was given to them in the form of a prison. This is pure Israel propaganda.

You say that it is the radicalization of Muslims (through anti-Israel education?) that is to blame for the violence. While I feel this is true to an extent. I do not think this is the primary cause. You only need to live in deep poverty, brutal occupation or in a prison like situation and look around you for a short while to form a hatred that spawns extremist reactions.

WilliB,

The principle of proportionality means the amount of force should be in proportion with your stated military objective. So the question you have to ask is - Are the bombings of Universities etc in proportion to to objective of the stopping of firing home made rockets?

I see you have the same misunderstanding about the principle of proportionality of John Bolton and his friends at Fox News.

She can't have been groped for 18 minutes. Even the Chikans would have got bored. Must have been the time between stops including holding the men down.

Nothing Freddie Flintoff wouldn't do after a couple of beers!

Down with management!!

Who needs a labour union when you have a psychotic brother with a big feck off samurai sword!!