know so much history about Israel and yet you never heard of their "IDF electronic army" propaganda machine?
That is true. Please send me a link so I can read about it.
0 ( +0 / -0 )
As for the Blogspot artwork, one of MEMRI's interns could have thrown that together in half an hour.
Which links would be acceptable to you?
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but I don't understand how you can abandon your fellow brothers and sisters?
I have not abandoned them. What I absolutely hate with all my being is the leaders, Hamas and its friends, who should be caring about the welfare and well-being of their own citizens but do not. They watch them die, they waste millions that could be used to build up Gaza, they live in splendour while everyone else barely gets by. How do you think Palestinians feel when they see Israel doing everything in its power to protect the lives of all its citizens while Hamas is doing everything in its power to have all the more of its own citizens die. I have not abandoned Palestinians, but I have abandoned their so-called leaders.
0 ( +1 / -1 )
The fact that you have NEVER posted on any other thread besides Israeli related ones, suggest the rest of the world is of no importance to you and fits the patterns of the IDF electronic army
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about or what the "IDF electronic army" is. It seems you want me to post more things criticising the Israelis, but as I've said again and again, the Palestinians' misery is the fault of Hamas. The Israelis could stop attacking tomorrow and could lift the blockade and I am sure that would not be enough for Hamas and they would continue to make Palestinian families' lives hell by doing what they've been doing for almost 10 years now.
1 ( +1 / -0 )
We can be SURE that those 300+ children who died are not Hamas members
We cannot be SURE that it wasn't Hamas rockets that killed some of these children.
1 ( +3 / -2 )
So that means if Hamas commits uses force on its people to impose its medieval ideology it is justified, and if Israel uses force it is not.
Not quite sure you understood what I wanted to say. Someone asked why Palestinians listen to what Hamas tells them to do. I was just saying that they don't really have much choice. If Palestinians speak out against Hamas they are likely to end up dead. As far as I'm aware, Israelis are perfectly able to speak out against their government without fear. If you compare the media in Israel with the media in Gaza, you'll see that Israelis have freedom to say and print whatever they like, whereas unfortunately that is not the case for Palestinians in Gaza under Hamas.
0 ( +1 / -1 )
With 1000+ victims with only 1% being actual "terrorists"
One of the guidelines issued by the Hamas Interior Ministry states: "Anyone killed or martyred is to be called a civilian from Gaza or Palestine, before we talk about his status in jihad or his military rank. Don't forget to always add 'innocent civilian' or 'innocent citizen' in your description of those killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza."
Innocent people have of course died but it is not at all clear yet how many were terrorists.
-1 ( +4 / -5 )
Why do they listen to what Hamas tells them to do?
Because the consequences of going against Hamas are not unlike what would happen in North Korea if an ordinary citizen tried the same thing.
0 ( +2 / -2 )
I see that you still havnt made a single post about any other subject, in the world, (other than pro Israeli) comments while always condemning Palestine.
I do not condemn Palestine. I do however believe that Palestinians have never had leaders who really care about them. I condemn those leaders. They live the good life while doing nothing at all for the ordinary people they are supposed to support.
I'm not sure why you are keen to hear my comments on other topics. I'm afraid time, interest and knowledge restrictions prevent me from commenting elsewhere. I don't see how not commenting elsewhere makes me comments here less valid. But if you wish to believe that, it's OK.
-1 ( +3 / -4 )
Crush Them, I appreciate your comments but I don't think the situation in Gaza resembles the situation in the US all those years ago. However I am not confident talking about American history because my knowledge is rather limited.
saying that once Israel took troops and settlers out of Gaza, that overnight, everything should have been much, much better.
I don't think anyone believed that, but I do know that a lot of Palestinians thought it would mark a new beginning. Hamas however had other ideas. The naval blockade and other restrictions only came into being AFTER Hamas started launching rockets and suicide bombers into Israel. People say that these are the moves of a desperate people, but they are not. Palestinians are desperate but they want a chance to start new lives, without Israeli retaliation for Hamas' attacks. If the poor Palestinians could only find leaders who cared as much about their welfare as they do about the destruction of Israel, then maybe they would have a chance of a better life.
Fatah and Hamas corrupt? No kidding. I know that. But you seem to be completely ignorant to the root cause.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by that. All I know is that Palestinians deserve rulers who are not corrupt and who do not siphon off money for themselves. It pains Palestinians to see photos of their leader living a life of luxury in Qatar (and before that Syria), while they suffer.
-3 ( +1 / -4 )
With such positive progress, I cannot see any good reason whatsoever for Arafat to have left the talks. None. I can clearly see at least 14 years of misery why he should have stayed and continued talking.
Exactly. Think how different the lives of ordinary Palestinians could have been.
-2 ( +1 / -3 )
to seek and destroy... schools, hospitals and civilian facilities where dangerous Palestinian people like children, wounded and elders hide.....
What Israel is doing is seeking to put an end to rocket attacks and to destroy tunnels built with terrorist purposes. It is Hamas that is choosing to launch rockets from places where Gazan civilians are used as human shields, and it was Hamas who used 800,000 tons of cement to build terror tunnels and hiding places for their leaders, instead of using it to improve the lives of Palestinians living there.
By only criticising Israel, you are not helping the Palestinians at all.
-2 ( +3 / -5 )
I recall the worldwide outrage over the massacre in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut in 1982.
I recall the worldwide lack of outrage over the deaths of Palestinians in the Yarmouk refugee camp in 2014.
-2 ( +1 / -3 )
And yeah, I dismissed people like yourself who criticize....
It is your prerogative to dismiss me. All I have been trying to say is that being part-Palestinian, this is a topic that is very dear to me and I don't agree with a lot of comments here claiming that Israel is to blame for the mess in Gaza. In 2005 when Israel finally pulled its people out of Gaza, many Palestinians thought that at last there would be a chance to make a new state, little by little, without fighting. Hamas however saw differently and shattered all hopes when it decided that Gaza was not enough, they wanted more, and started firing rockets, knowing full well that Israel would retaliate.
its easy to see why Hamas exists
Palestinians voted for Hamas in 2006 because they were sick of the corruption of Fatah and were sick of seeing millions of dollars in aid going to people like Arafat when ordinary Palestinians were suffering. I wonder if Hamas ever decided to hold another election (last one was 8 years ago) if people would still vote for them.
You call this "emotional baggage", I call it caring for friends and relatives.
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But one day, I simply had enough. I got sick of all this BS, and hodge podge of information. So I resolved to study this conflict in detail and finally get some real answers to how and why this is happening. I did not start with any bias toward anybody. I read information concerning both sides, from both sides, and from third parties. I did this literally for weeks before I formed a conclusion.
It is heartening to hear you resolved to study about this. I was born into this conflict and have lived it through friends and family, who lived there or are still there, every day of my life. I don't see how "weeks" of studying it (I'm interested to hear how you studied it) can lead to a definitive conclusion.
The Israeli government is the true impetus of this cycle
Many in Gaza and the West Bank disagree.
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parroted by the disingenuous
This was a 2012 report by the Institute for Palestine Studies specifically about Hamas tunnel construction.
"A similarly cavalier approach to child labor and tunnel fatalities damaged the movement’s standing with human-rights groups, despite government assurances dating back to 2008 that it was considering curbs. During a police patrol that the author was permitted to accompany in December 2011, nothing was done to impede the use of children in the tunnels, where, much as in Victorian coal mines, they are prized for their nimble bodies…"
Human right groups "raised concerns" regarding "child labor in the tunnels" as early as 2008.
Children who die at the hands of Hamas are equally deserving of our sympathy.
-3 ( +0 / -3 )
Fizzbit, I want the Palestinians to have a better life, but I don't see how that's possible with Hamas. That is also what many Palestinians are saying, although they are afraid to say so in public. Yes, they were elected, but that was in 2006. Why no election since? Hamas has spent huge amounts of money building tunnels into Israel, for the purpose of killing or kidnapping Israelis, tunnels that run under the houses of ordinary Palestinian families, families who could do nothing to stop them, and using their children for labour. I don't understand how this helps the average citizen in Gaza. That was a lot of cement. There are things that the Israeli government is doing wrong, but it is not only the Israeli government. There will be no improvement in the lives of Palestinians under Hamas. That is all I want to say.
2 ( +5 / -3 )
How dare you try to infer what me or others feel about this war and where our loyalty is. That is not only rude but disingenuous. Israel is running an apartheid state in the West Bank and Gaza Stripe
I apologise if you found what I said rude. I did not intend to be. Nor was I directing anything about loyalty specifically to you.
0 ( +3 / -3 )
You could have just written that.
I don't know about you, but I have no need, desire or intention of "just writing" anything. These are typical examples of things I hear from Palestinians all the time. Is it really so unbelievable that these poor people, suffering so much, would hate Hamas?
This paper may not have reported it, but about 200 Palestinian children were killed digging those tunnels used by Hamas for terrorist purposes. How do you feel about that? I'm disappointed that many people are so blinded by their hatred of Israel that they cannot see the evil that is Hamas. Palestinians do NOT want them. By falling for Hamas propaganda people are just aiding the very organisation that is preventing Palestinians' lives from improving.
WTF are you talking about?
I know this wasn't directed at me, but is there really a need to be rude like that?
1 ( +5 / -4 )
I'm sure many people believe that by criticising Israel they are helping the Palestinians, but until they admit that much of the blame lies with Hamas, they are doing the Palestinians no favour. Some quotes from Palestinians, who are mostly too afraid to give their real names when speaking out against their Hamas rulers:
“You need to understand that Palestinian blood has been shed by Hamas itself,” a 28-year old journalist who asked not to be identified said earlier today. “Living under Hamas is a tragedy.”
“Nobody can forgive Hamas for what they’re doing,” the journalist said. “No one can forgive Hamas for butchering Palestinians to get power. Most Gazans hate Hamas with a passion.”
"There is fear of speaking out against Hamas, which is why many have stayed quiet until now", said an editor at a local Gazan media outlet.
“The only reason Hamas rules Gaza is because of its ruthless iron fist and military dictatorship,” he said. “We would love to have an independence from both Fatah and Hamas, who are profiting off the Palestinian people. We need to rule ourselves.”
“No normal human being can watch what’s going on and still support Hamas. Hamas uses civilians, while their own leaders (like Mashaal) are hiding in Qatar.”
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Japonaise: So because of your "background", you NEVER make comments on ANY other subjects at JT?? Lol!
I'm not the kind of person who normally comments at all on these kind of websites. I don't usually read JT. I just happen to be personally involved in this particular case. However I see that comments are starting to get personal and impolite so I shall stop. Peace to the Palestinians and Israelis.
0 ( +1 / -1 )
I guess Japan and the rest of the world have no importance to you.
Wrong guess. Because of my background I just happen to feel very strongly about the situation in that area of the Middle East. I also happen to know a lot about the history and background of this topic.
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then Israel has surely chosen the wrong path.......
While Hamas chooses the "right" path by using 800,000 tons of concrete and billions in aid to build terror tunnels, bunkers, launching pads for missliles and buys weapons instead of using it to improve the lives of ordinary Palestinians in Gaza.
Hamas’ bosses are living a life of luxury. Haniyeh bought 27,000 square feet of beach-side property a few years ago for $4 million, pays for his children to study in Europe, and sends his family members to hospitals inside Israel. Meanwhile Gazans languish in poverty.
People protesting against Israel are doing the Palestinians no favours whatsoever. If you really care about the ordinary people in Gaza, get out there and protest against Hamas, whose whole raison d’etre is killing people in order to bring about the rule of its fundamentalist and radically intolerant brand of Islam—they shoot Jews, and they also shoot anyone else they don't like, including Egyptian soldiers, gays, and political opponents from other Palestinian factions.
-3 ( +3 / -6 )
what grievances do Palestinians bear against the state of Israel?
The Palestinian grievances that I hear about are with their leaders. Israel left Gaza many years ago and the day-to-day problems that Palestinians face, like getting jobs, getting a decent education for their children, especially girls, like having dreams for the future where there's no fighting, like being able to live as free people, are nothing to do with Israel.
I feel that this is not what you want to hear, but I'm sorry, that is what I've been hearing for a long time now.
-1 ( +1 / -2 )
They hVe long blocDed Gaza and made it impossible to obtain food and medicine,.
That is simply untrue.
What is clear is that Hamas is trying to get Israel to kill as many Palestinians as possible. Dead Palestinians are a great propaganda victory for an inhumane regime that has failed miserably to provide its own people with even the most basics of civilised life: safety, food, employment, education, medical care.(Ismail Haniyeh sent his own granddaughter to Israel for treatment - and she was accepted). But Hamas leaders don't hesitate to protect themselves. They hide in a vast web of underground tunnels and shelters built just for them. Gazan civilians are expendable. Urged to become targets and their dead bodies are paraded in public to further the Hamas cause.
It is Hamas that is the problem. Get rid of Hamas and give the Palestinians a chance of a decent life.
-6 ( +3 / -9 )
any mentality that suggests that Israel has shown restrain in killing hundreds of women and children is, frankly, sick.
Israel HAS shown restraint. It could have done what Hamas does, and fire indiscriminately into civilian areas with the sole purpose of killing as many people as possible. Al Jazeera (owned by Qatar, a friend of Hamas) published data showing that so far during the operation in Gaza Israel has killed mainly combatant-age males, not women or children. Deaths are shown to be disproportionately (compared to the overall population) among young males. Men over 40 are also disproportionately represented. Some of those are probably senior members of Hamas.
How many of the deaths of "civilians" are really civilians? They don't wear uniforms. How many deaths were caused by Hamas' own rockets falling short? How many were caused by Hamas not allowing people to evacuate when told of imminent attacks by Israel? How many were caused by Hamas using people's homes to fire rockets from? Ditto schools, mosques and hospitals? All innocent deaths are a tragedy but to say that all these people died because of Israel is, frankly, sick.
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Probably because: a) the article is about the Gaza conflict, not Syria.
Agreed. Plenty of posters have commented about Palestinians in general though, not just those who live in Gaza. I tried to find similar comments following the murder of Palestinians in Yarmouk a couple of months ago, but couldn't. I was just wondering why people seem to care more about Palestinians when they die at the hands of Israelis than when they die at the hands of Arabs.
-5 ( +1 / -6 )
Why are so many people here outraged about the number of Palestinians killed in Gaza but are silent when it comes to the thousands of Palestinians killed in Syria? Either you support the Palestinians or you don't.
-4 ( +3 / -7 )
All the people here lambasting Israel and claiming to support the Palestinians, where was your outrage at the murder, torture and displacement of thousands of Palestinian men, women, children and babies in Syrian camps a couple of months ago? I'd take people a bit more seriously if I saw them protesting when Arabs kill Palestinians and not only when Israel is involved.
-2 ( +1 / -3 )
Was there a similar protest earlier this year when Syrian forces murdered and tortured Palestinians in Yarmouk? About 2000 Palestinians have been killed in Syria. Are they not important enough for a silent street protest?
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