jgarbuz comments

Well, my forefathers lived in ghettos and shtetls and faced constant humiliations for centuries. Including within the Muslim states. And my grandparents, and the grandparents of every child of holocaust survivors, had their grandparents murdered in the war. Not a single child of holocaust survivors born right after the war (such as myself) ever knew a living a grandparent. Not one. Okay, so we did not expect that the Muslim world would begrudge us to the extent they have, the right to return to our homeland. It did come as a surprise and bit of shock. WE were not aware of the depth of Jew-hatred that existed in Islam, and that was it was just as deep as in Christendom. I guess we were just oblivious of just how deep anti-Jewish racism goes.

Okay, so Israeli Jews now have to live under the threat of rockets, and suicide bombers and even perhaps nuclear destruction. But at least they can face it on their OWN LAND and with weapons in hand for a change. As Joseph Trumpledor, an early Zionist fighter, said in his last words as he lay dying from a firefight with Arab marauders back in 1920, "Never mind, it is good to die for our country" That's much better than what my grandmother got when she got to say when she was shot in the ghetto of Boremel in Poland by the Nazi collaborators. Better than what my mother's fist baby child get when he was murdered in the forest at the age of four.

We don't need luck. We need God's blessing and to have the means to defend ourselves. Nothing more. The rest is in God's hands.

Correction. The last sentence of my previous post should have said: Jerusalem never was and never will become the capital of any Arab state, etc. Period.

The enemy is anyone who rejects the right of the Jewish state to exist in peace, with Jerusalem as its unified capital.

Jewish rights are enumerated in the same place the rights of all of other nations is to have to their own homelands.

It's been made a clash between the Bible and the Koran because some followers of the Koran forgot to read Sura 117 which recognizes the Israelites. There is no mention whatsoever of any "Palestine" or "Palestinian lands" in the Koran. There never was a state called Palestine, and hence there are no Palestinian lands. It's like calling parts of Brooklyn Jewish lands. You can only claim right to a land where you once had an actual historical state on it. Otherwise, it's just land inhabited by some shifting group or other. The concept of "Palestinian lands" is false UNTIL a state called "Palestine" actually exists.

Jerusalem was never a capital of any "Palestinian" state. It wasn't even an administrative center of any Arab entity. In fact, there was no "Palestine" in the Ottoman empire. The area EUROPEANS call "Palestine" was divided in a number of different districts (sanjaqs) whose administrative centers were in Beirut and Nablus, etc. Show us a Turkish made map showing "Palestine" before 1915. Only maps made in Europe and America used that name.

Jerusalem will never again become the capital of any Arab state, dreary or otherwise. Period.

As for Jerusalem, the Arabs have no historical or legal claim to another Arab capital therein. The arguments are familiar. It was never the capital an Arab state or seat of a Muslim caliphate. It has been majority Jewish since the 1840s. Even when East Jerusalem was in Jordanian hands, it was not made the capital of either Jordan or any Palestinian state. I cannot understand the basis of any Arab claim, except for the story that Muhammad made a magical mystery tour in his sleep to the "northernmost mosque" and met all the previous prophets in heaven there who authorized his own superiority. And then woke up in his bed back in Arabia. I just can't see that as justification for turning Jerusalem into yet another dreary Arab capital.

The Koran may give the Arabs the idea they have the right to dominate the world in the name of Allah, but I'm sorry to have to humiliate you again. We Jews do not accept your falsification of our history and rights. We do not accept Koranic authority over our homeland.

As for the US, it did not place itself between Israel and the Arabs for Israel's sake. The main consideration in America's calculation is the fate of that oil that the US discovered and developed and addicted itself to. That same oil that built the palaces of the Arab autocrats, and enabled the Arab population numbers of the former Ottoman empire to rapidly increase from 22 million after WWI to about 350 million today. But, yes, America did agree to the League of Nations' ruling that set aside Palestine to be restored as the Jewish National Home after WWI. But Woodrow Wilson also agreed that the Arabs were to have their own independent states as well. So the US has tried to be friends and fair to both sides in this clash between the Koran and the Bible. Between Arab ambitions and Jewish rights. As long as the US remained fair, it's okay. But when it tilts against Jewish rights, it ceases to be so.

To sabiwabi

The Jews did nothing to prejudice the civil or religious rights of NON-JEWISH COMMUNITIES in Palestine. Not one inch of privately owned land was taken from Arabs from 1920 up until the Arabs started the war after November 29th, 1947 to try to destroy the newly authorized Jewish state. All Jewish settlements were either on "wastelands" or "state lands" or on lands legally purchased from landowners, in full accord with the terms of the Mandate. And there was no recognized borders before June 5th, 1967. There were the 1949 Armistice lines which the Arabs refused to accept as permanent borders of the "Zionist entity." So the myth of "pre-67 borders" is just simply more propaganda, like the myth of the "Palestinian people." The League of Nations did not see any "Palestinian people" but only NON-JEWISH COMMUNITIES, as you correctly stated.

Moderator: Readers, that concludes the history, thank you. From here on, please focus your comments on what is in the story.

I don't have to look up anything. I know the history of my homeland better than you know that of yours. Israel is historically and legally the homeland of the Jewish nation. The Council of the League of Nations in 1920 ruled that the Jewish National Home is in the territory they refer to as "Palestine" and it was enshrined in the 1922 Mandate turned over to the British to administer. In addition, in 1947 the UN General Assembly voted by 2/3rds vote to approve the right of a "JEWISH STATE" to come into being within that geographic territory. Israel's right to exist is possibly the most legally sanctioned state on the planet. The country was illegally attacked by 5 Arab armies, who were thankfully defeated and Israel agree to the Armistice lines of 1949. The Arabs continued to refuse to recognize it, and to recognize the Armistice line as a legal border, and routinely violated it by arming fedayeen terrorists who murdered hundreds of Israelis between 1949 and 1967. In addition, Jordan illegally occupied Judah, Samaria and East Jerusalem and no "Palestinian" state came into being. As a result of artillery attacks on Israel begun on June 5th 1967, despite Israel's pleading with King Hussein not to get involved in the hostilities, the IDF was forced to respond and evict the Jordanian army from the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Israel's existence as the Jewish state, and its occupation of the territories taken from Jordan and Egypt are both legal despite false propaganda to the contrary. The Armistice Line of '49 was erased by gross Arab violations and military attacks, and are no longer relevant. Peace can only come with full recognition of the right of the Jewish state to exist in peace and a negotiated settlement of the issues in a manner favorable to Israel's security needs.

First of all, Israel is JEWISH LAND occupied by Arabs, and not the other way around. The Arabs can believe what they want, but Judah and Samaria are the heart and soul of the Jewish nation. Orthodox Jews pray towards Jerusalem, the center of Judea. Muslims pray towards Mecca, the center of their Arabian homeland. Second, Israel assumes NOTHING. So-called "friends" come and go. France was a friend, and went. The US claims to be a friend, but it may go too. Israeli satellites are now being put up by Indian rockets. The world community is changing. Nobody knows better than we Jews who saw empires rise and eventually decline. From Egypt and Assyria to the British, Soviet and American empires, we have experienced them all. And God willing, we will survive them all. Israel is not a forward base for America any more than is Japan or South Korea. It is a country that shares the same values that Americans cherish, i.e. liberty and individual freedom and that is the basis for US-Israel cooperation. Many countries received considerable aid from the US. Britain, France, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Turkey, Iran, Egypt, the Palestinians, and a host of others have been the recipients of military and economic assistance. None of them are considered property of the US, and neither is Israel. Israel is a friend and ally for only as long as the American people wish it to be. In the final analysis, even if the US were totally kicked out from the Middle East, as it was from South Vietnam, American children would not die. Under the worst case, gasoline prices might double or triple causing some economic distress. But that would probably be the worst thing that would happen to Americans if they totally withdrew from the ME. But for Israel, one major defeat means its children will be slaughtered like sheep as in WWII. That's the major difference. So the US will not dictate policy to Israel, or vice versa. Both countries will assess the value of the relationship and decide what they want to do. The Japanese are reassessing their relationship as well. Every nation will do as they think best for their own interests, and the US and Israel will be no different.

BTW, Israel and the US are not allies. There is no formal treaty of alliance with Israel as there is with the 27 members of NATO including Germany, or with Japan under the 1960 Security Pact. Or with Australia and New Zealand under ANZUS. Israel asked for such an alliance with the US back in the early 1950s but Eisenhower rejected it. That is an important reason why Israel had to develop a deterrent in conjunction with France back in the late 1950s. Khruschev and Eisenhower threatened both Israel and France during the Suez Crisis, so they both subsequently decided to get their own nuclear deterrents, though ISrael has never admitted to it.

To LFRAgain

Your hypothesis is wrong. If Israel were free of US aid and influence, to which it has become addicted the way the US let itself get addicted to oil, Israel could have nuked its enemies with their oil fields decades ago. If the US had experienced anything like what Israel has experienced from the Arabs, it would have done worse. The US lost two buildings with 3,000 people and sent its army into two Muslim countries and more. Israel has lost 25,000 due to Arab war and terror. And it's a tiny country. Had the US lost 25,000 it would have gotten serious and utterly destroyed the countries sending armies and terrorists against it.

There is no people in the Middle East more interested in peace than Israelis. Almost every Israeli Jew has to spend at least 5 years of his life (and for most women at least 2) in the IDF. The idea that Israel wants only to "grab land" is false, proved by the fact that Israel gave up the vast Sinai with 50% of its oil supplies after four wars with Egypt. No other country has ever done anything like that for peace. Israel withdrew settlements from Gaza and many parts of ancient Judah and Samaria including most of those territories to terrorists whose goal is to annihilate the Jewish state. And they still refuse to recognize the Jewish state. The Jews were the only people that ever had an independent state in that area. And the US is not paying for Israeli technology, but rather benefiting greatly by it, both in the military and medical fields. But in fact, compared to the amount of wealth the US sends to Arab countries, Israel only gets 1%. If anything, US wealth has built up the Arab Middle East FAR FAR more than building up Israel. Thanks to US discovering, developing and purchasing of Arab oil, the Arab population of the ME has increase 15-fold since WWI. Western addiction to oil saved the Muslim world from utter poverty and hopelessness.

To those Jews who say that Jews ought to go to Florida or New York, when did the US become a Jewish state? And did they get permission from the rest of American citizens, or from the Seminole natives to make such an offer?

As for the Arab states all getting atomic bombs to even out with ISrael, they all signed the NPT, and so they signed AWAY their right to have nuclear weapons. But Pakistan did not sign the NPT so it has a right to them. India did not sign, so it has a right to them. Israel did not sign the treaty, so it has a right to them. And if Saddam had not been stopped by ISrael from getting to bomb, who's to say he wouldn't have used it on Iran? Or the Arabs using them on each other? They have as many conflicts among themselves as they do with Israel. The Muslims outnumber Israel by 200 to 1, and so Israel needs them until they full recognize the right of the sole Jewish state to exist. And did not the US occupy Japan after dropping two atomic bombs? Did the US not impose a constitution on Japan? Did it not reduce the power of the Emperor? Any state for the Palestinians must conform to Israels security needs. Israel did not start, and did not lose any wars. It will not accept ultimatums or diktats.

The Arabs have NO right to claim any part of Jerusalem as the capital of a 22nd Arab state for the following reasons:

1> Jerusalem was never the capital of any Arab state nor Muslim caliphate in all of history, but only that of the Kingdom of JUDAH; 2> Jews have been the majority in Jerusalem since 1844. That's about 160 years; 3> When Jordan controlled East Jerusalem, and the city was divided from 1949 -1967, it never became the capital of either Jordan nor any Palestinian state. And Israeli Jews were not permitted to cross and pray at their most holy site.

Technically, Jordan too occupied East Jerusalem without UN permission from '49 -'67. The only claim the Arabs have there is due to their mosques that built on top of the ancient Judean Temple Mount. Is that sufficient claim for a capital? Any seriously objective observer could not merit the Arab claim to East Jerusalem becoming the capital of the 22nd Arab state. It is beyond human reason.