kirakira25 comments

Good one Tessa - hamsters need love too - just ask Richard Gere! Eeeeuuuww! Or was that a gerbil?

Think we have all just invented a new form of contraception for Japan - this thread!

Cleo if you suffered that much the first time around and then had another go then hats off to you - that must have been terrible! I had a fissure and a few cracks and was horrendously sore, but I didn`t even bleed, yet the pain was awful in the beginning.

I used to think of the La Leche League as a bunch of breastfeeding nazis. Now Im thinking of training to be one so I can offer the kind of support and help I wish I had been given.

You are looking well over a million when you include an epidural.

Mine is 6 months and still not sleeping midnight to 5am - gggrrrrr! Breast is DEFINITELY easier in terms of carting everything around - I agree with that. It does make it difficult to ever have a night off though, which is one reason why I mixed. I also quite simply didn`t have enough milk this time around - with 2 others to look after and no help you get really tired and my 3rd is a big lad.

Enjoy your new baby - they just get big so fast don`t they?

I dont know how many prayer breaks they are taking or how long for, but I have to admit that the guy who answered back has a point. Any time of the day when I walk past an office building in my area there are hordes standing around smoking. Ditto every time I enter a starbucks on a weekday afternoon and find salarymen sleeping in there. Its no wonder to me sometimes that everyone has to work 18 hour days...if you actually count the number of productive hours it`s probably not so different to the rest of the developed world!

oh Canukle - don`t be too envious - I know from experience this is only a temporary state of affairs (unless I continue feeding him till high school!)

He giveth, and he absolutely taketh away again! But I always say if God never wanted us to have boob jobs he wouldn`t have given us those clever souls who dreamed up the idea in the first place!

I can tell you with absolute certainty that second time round will not be a fraction as bad for several reasons - a) it always seems to be the case, with me and everyone I have ever spoken to about it b) you know much more what to expect and what you are doing c) therefore YOU can tell THEM what to do for YOU with more confidence!

Those specialty clinics that cater to foreigners I have actually heard pretty mixed reports from. In my experience it really doesnt matter where you are, if you have a good doctor with whom you have a good rapport you will be fine. However, I dont know how much choice of doctors you have outside the cities.

The first time is terrifying (depending on the circumstances.) The second time is a breeze in comparison. The 3rd time is a wild card and the 4th...well, I aint goin there but I hear you skip from conception straight through to delivery without a squeak! Ill take any mum of 4s word for it cos like I said - the KK baby factory is closed!

Note to self - don`t let my kids go on a summer camp trip here.

I was in south africa for the rugby world cup in 95 and believe me - it should be a crime to drown out those amazing african voices chanting and singing. I still get goosebumps now at the memory of it.

So many interesting points of view on here - from seasoned mothers, new mothers, non-mothers and even the guys(!) and I have really enjoyed reading everyones opinions - wow! Did I just say that out loud??!

I agree with what pretty much everyone is saying! Cleo - BIG congrats on the grandchild! I seriously believe not enough encouragement, help and support is given to breastfeeding here - it was hell in the early days and I really hope your daughter is pushing through the tough bit OK because it really DOES get better - if you can tough it out to the other side after about 2 months.

I cant speak for overseas as I have never had a child there but three times I sat through the formula milk sales pitch and quite honestly I can see the pluses and minuses on both sides. I "mixed" with all mine. But one thing people never really consider a major plus for breastfeeding is...you should SEE these babies! People here seem SO friendly these days...;) ! Seriously! A plus for me, a plus for the takyubin delivery guy - everyones happy! (except hubby if he reads this but I digress...!)

Zenny11 - for a man (boo! hiss!) quite an insightful comment - listen to your body. It is ABSOLUTELY true. When you give in to things your body tells you exactly what to do (or in my 3rd labour what NOT to do as the cord was wrapped twice round the poor little guys neck and pushing would have strangled him). I think we get so wrapped up in fear and focusing on what the books say we should do we forget that our uteruses (uteri??!) are pretty smart and can be left to do the job unaided in many cases.

Options and education are out there - but for foreigners here, or at least those who dont speak Japanese well they can be expensive. I dont know how much the woman in the article charges for the hypnosis course, but many of us delivering here are not on ex-pat salaries with expense accounts.

And I also agree with tmarie - choice is the most important thing, because as I think I said before every body, and every birth is unique and what one may tolerate another may not. There is no standard measure for pain because it is such a subjective thing.

Frungy - thanks for the updated stats - good to know things have improved here.

I really hope no-one here is put off having children because of the pain. It is the most minor possible reason not to have children! I was NEVER a kiddie kind of person before having mine - I was SO focused on my career and my lifestyle. And even now they are here I would be lying if I said I devoted every minute of my life to them. It is just not who I am and for me, balance is key - KK the mum and KK the wild child still exist symbiotically! Everyone is different and you just need to find what works for you, but please - never be put off having children for the fear of labour pain - it is over so quickly (well, after 36 hours or so max!) and they ARE worth it. No, really, they are!!!

Ah, Cleo. I didn`t know that was the real reason. I was told by non-medical people the reason I gave so I assumed that was the reason. Yes, Japanese baths are very different to back home and I for one love them! Hate my rubbishy British bath whenever I go home now!

Again Zenny - we need to have a beer or two and see if we can out-gross each other! This should be a REALLY fun night out!!! Hope no-one nearby can speak English! Definitely put them off their Yakitori!!!

Whooaa! LOVING this thread!!! I`ll get back to you on the beer....

I was laughing because textbook dilation and the real deal can be somewhat different. My dilation was like listening to a game of Bingo! 4! 6! 7! No, wait! 4 again! Oh, just a minute, we were right the first time - 7! I only ever got to 8 anyway and then screamed at the doctor to get this baby out of me! And he did. All 3800g of him without a stitch. Now THAT is a talented doctor! Hot too, poor guy. As if this job wasn`t stressful enough he also had 60 kilos of hormonal pregnant foreigner chasing his tail! Dangerous profession, obstetrics!

ohhhhh Zenny - we should have a beer sometime!

Just wanted to add that my maternal mortality figures were based on a study done in the 90`s. It is safe to assume things are probably similar still given that the issues highlighted in the study are still issues today - but I wanted to point that out just to avoid scaring the crap out of any potential mums on here!!!

I think the problem with cutting is that it is often done routinely whether necessary or not, just again - because it is easier for the doctor. But I totally agree when it is MEDICALLY necessary it is a good thing. I think the second issue people have is no anesthetic for either the cutting itself or the stitching. The cutting I agree is generally the least of your worries at the time it happens, but the stitching can be excruciating.

No showers - I was told not to have a shower for 24 hours after the birth. The reason I was given was the risk of fainting. Of course, I totally ignored that directive! I was also told no baths for the first month. This again is very old-fashioned and stems from the days when they believed the bath water could enter the uterus and cause an infection. This is now proven not ot be the case and many doctors OUTSIDE Japan recommend a bath - but still not within it would seem.

DEFINITELY ask all the questions you can think of. Many J doctors dont like that - so I would say if you get one who doesnt like you asking questions I would question yourself what you are doing with that doctor anyway and change quickly! With me it was the reverse - the clinic appointment was over in minutes and he then kept me behind for ages firing questions at me about English language, culture and foreign women etc etc until the midwives practically threw us both out!

Cleo - I think the squeamish male readers are looong gone! I think my watermelon analogy did the trick! Oops!

Oh man! This reminds me of daytime advice shows. UK: "my daughter is shooting heroin into her eyeballs" Japan: "my daughter in law can`t make good miso soup".

no wonder people here are dropping like flies if this is considered advice-column-worthy problems.

There is no choice for several reasons:

1)Japanese women dont demand it, largely I think because of the way they were raised, but also because of senior womens atiitudes ("I went through it so you have to as well") and the image of doctors as "gods". They are raised to just believe you have to suffer in childbirth, and that`s that.

2) A lack of anaesthesiologists in the medical profession and they tend to be concentrated in the big university hospitals.

3) A fragmented hospital system with most people delivering at small clinics and small private hospitals where there may only be 1 or 2 OBGYNs and no anaesthesiologist.

4) Very little redress when things go wrong - autopsies are not routinely performed here, and classification of maternal mortality here is not consistent with outside Japan (for example deaths within 46 days of delivery are not considered perinatal so for example post-partum infections leading to death may not be considered as maternal mortality) therefore it is very hard to investigate maternal mortality accurately, and no impetus on the doctors to adhere to certain standards.

It IS a terrifying thing, largely because it is such an unpredictable process (unless you have a c-sect but even then things go wrong). Add to that all the crap they spout here about only gsining 8kgs, the hideous stirrups they still insist on using because it is better for the doctor (screw the patient), cutting and stitching with no anaesthetic (that makes me REALLY angry-like to see a J man have HIS balls cut and stitched with no pain meds!) power-mad midwives and nurses who get their own back on the patients after getting pushed around by the doctors....I could go on and on!

HOWEVER - IF you get a good doctor and a good hospital it really does make all the difference. Birth doesnt have to be a horrible experience. But you HAVE to trust your doctor and number 1 on that list is him/her respecting your wishes and giving you some feeling of control. So in my case, I brought in a TENS machine - the midwife at my 2nd birth tried to remove it but soon stopped when I threatened to bite her! My doctor in my 3rd delivery was so fantastic he was even going to let me bring a G&T into the delivery room if I thought it would help me relax! Personally I just think he wanted one himself as he dictated which particular brand I could bring in (!) but whatever! I was never cut and stitched because I told them if they did it to me I will grab the knife and stab them! They think we foreign women in labour are borderline psychotic anyway so I think they believed me! He made me feel like I was in control of things (even though I absolutely wasnt!) and said we would "work together to get this done" - he`ll tell me what to do and I tell him if I need to stop anytime. In short he made me relax, and THAT made the birth - the most painful and longest of the 3 - so much easier. When you are in intense pain you are SO stressed and scared it makes it all harder for the mother AND the doctor.

It is tough, and anyone who claims that pain helps with the bonding process is talking absolute crap! If anything it is the opposite - if you need to recover from a bad experience you often CANT hold the baby, need to rest and dont want it anywhere near you! But I will NEVER forget the high I was on after each time for about 24 hours afterwards - I had my beautiful baby in my arms and the sky could have fallen down around us, I wouldn`t even have noticed, we were so wrapped up in our pink bubble!

And then you bring the little critters home.....but that`s a topic for another time, another thread!

why on earth would any intelligent woman choose to put herself through this particularly ghastly experience more than once? Unless she's not very intelligent in the first place.

Chardonnay and summer nomikais! Pure and simple! Seriously - the first time was horrendous. But I didn`t want my daughter to be an only child so we had another. The second time was pretty straight forward and simple. I have heard this is often the pattern. The third is a wild card and I was deluded into thinking it would be fine. It was actually the worst of the three! But I have just this second come from putting my baby boy down to sleep and he covered my face in kisses - even at only 6 months old. My daughter is already fast asleep but not before thanking me for a great evening. My middle son is STILL awake but I just went in to tell him to pipe down and he took my hand and kissed it and said "I love you Mummy" - THIS is why!

I would have liked to have seen the mayor who took paternity leave recently as an example to his employees win the award.

tmarie - you are absolutely right! I actually had a big argument with my male OBGYN on this very score and told him to push a watermelon out of his ass over 36 hours without pain meds, have it cut out in the end and stitched up with no painkillers and then tell me his opinion on epidurals! Poor guy - his eyes were watering by the time I had finished berating him!

The horror stories you have heard are all true I am sorry to say - I have either experienced it personally or seen it happen. HOWEVER - it does vary hugely by hospital and doctor. My doctor was fabulous in the end despite the stinginess with the narcotics! The midwives were also wonderful on the whole. In fact, the worst experiences I have had have been with female doctors!

Japanese women just seem to put up with this "cultural thing" for whatever reason - they are bullied by their mothers (in law), told by God-like doctors it is not necessary, raised to believe they shouldnt complain or demand, etc etc. Again - fine for those that can take it. Traumatic and with long-term complications for those who cant. As everyone who knows anything about this has been saying - CHOICE is the key here.

a fact that Japan has the lowest rate of death at birth so it's obviously safe to give birth in Japan

I`m sorry bicultural but that is absolutely not true. They actually have one of the HIGHEST rates of maternal mortality amongst OECD nations - look it up! They have one of the lowest rates of INFANT mortality.

Do you know what the old ladies used to say in Japan? You are not a fully grown women until you have experienced the pain of labour. Some people still believe it.

Yeah, I heard that too. I also heard from my doctor that these women tell their daughters "I experienced the suffering, so you should too!" WTF?? I would NEVER tell my daughter that! Why on earth would I want to see her suffering when it could be avoided!

Not sure if I can agree with kirakira and Tmarie

Well theres a shocker! Sorry Zenny11 - I dont mean to diss you and I absolutely respect your opinion. But please also respect ours - I have done labour 3 times here. I know what it feels like. It hurts like hell and after 36 hours (my third) you are SO exhausted you are virtually delirious. I actually can say that I had very good levels of care here on the whole (but with a few nasty experiences I wont go into here) - and it sounds like your wife did too - but many many people are not so lucky. Pain and the bodys perception of it is a funny thing. I dont think anyone here is advocating drugs all the way (well, maybe just a little bit!) but that the option SHOULD be there for those that cant for whatever reason handle it.

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Imo many foreign women come here and expect the same level or treatment and care and when they found out it isn't (often during labour) they start complaining.

Japan claims to be a first world developed country with a top notch medical system - so why is it unreasonable to expect the same level of care that you would at home?

In my opinion, the care I received in Japan was actually far BETTER than I would have received in the UK - but I don`t think it is unreasonable to expect similar levels of care. This is not the third world.

I would also add that an estimated 15% of women in Japan suffer from some form of post-traumatic stress from the pain of childbirth (quote from a famous Japanese English-speaking Obstetrician based on research done in Tokyo). I am with Cleo - meds ARE sometimes appropriate depending on the circumstances.

Oh boy - didn`t wanna get started on thsi one - but I will!

First of all - sorry boys but you have NO idea what labour pain feels like so anyone describing meds as "pampering" is pretty laughable!

Secondly, I would say that many WOMEN cant comment either, because in all honesty everybodys labour is different and everybodys reaction to pain is different. What one person may be able to endure, another may not and it doesnt in any way shape or form make them weaker - the circumstances around every birth are unique.

I think the main issue here is NOT a lack of pain relief as such, just a lack of options. Having given birth 3 times here without any pain relief, my biggest fear was that, if it all became too much - where do you go from there? It was not that I wanted the meds, just the option if necessary.

Saying oriental women endure pain better is laughable - they just dont complain so much, thats all!

Giving birth here is so much more than just physical - the emotional and mental trauma or lack of can be intense. Fear is a crippling thing, and especially with your first, but even with subsequent deliveries fear of the unknown is the worst. You can also feel incredibly out of control of the situation here. The doctors will often just take over and do whatever they feel is best in your situation while you have to just succumb to whatever they think needs to be done - sometimes against your wishes or without your consultation.

So I think that ANYTHING that gives women some sense of control over their situation, be it hypnobirth or anything else, and make them feel like they have options for dealing with the pain and the fear, can only be a good thing.

Lamaze I personally found completely useless in delivery, but great for when mother in law came up to "help" in the early days!

I would also add I have met Brett Iimura and she is FAB - I would recommend her to anyone.

I can see why a 75 year old woman would take out 6 mill in cash. My grandmother took out thousands a few times and walked around with it in her handbag - we all went mental every time we found out she did it, but she genuinely didn`t seem to understand what the problem was.

We were angry with the bank (or post office in her case) for letting an old woman walk out with that amount of cash like that. Of course, I understand it is not their responsibility, but common sense would dictate they would at least warn her of the potential risks and suggest a transfer or some other way instead. Maybe they did, but I doubt it.

As for the caucasian guy - well yes, banks have CCTV everywhere so it shouldnt be too hard to find him. I hope they string up the &%%$. IF indeed it was a caucasian. Im not saying I dont believe her....its just....well....would someone really be that dumb as to do something like that when they stick out a mile already on camera and on the street?

@tmarie - I would say so except for the fact that my husband would never call anyone out for not using childseats - he is way too non-confrontational!

@penelopepitstop - I don`t know whether the stats are true or not but I find most stats that come out of Japan kind of hard to believe.

@mediocremummy - typing one handed here but I also have 3 under 7 and second everything you just said!

I am SO sick of being laughed at by my Mother in Law, friends and neighbours for diligently strapping all 3 of the kids in every time. They dont scream or object because they are used to it. The only one who doesnt laugh - anymore - is my husband. I showed him some horrible internet pictures of what happens when kids aren`t strapped in and have an accident. He said he was grateful to be married to a foreigner who thinks of these things!!!

Thanks Shaolin! Nice to know there is hope for the little critter yet! I keep having to swear to the paediatrician that I am not beating him up with all his bumps, scrapes and bruises!

If I even try to imagine what these parents must be feeling right now my blood just runs cold. You send your kid to school every day and never imagine they won`t be coming back.

Most people with their own brain couldn`t care less what critics say either.

I`m always being accused of being paranoid about my kids. I take it as a compliment to my vigilance!

Bobcatfish - I have no problem with kids being kids in school. Hell, we were just as bad. But you need to be here to see the kids in school here - this kind of thing happens SO often and my point was that, given that it happens so often, you would think the teachers and school administration would have learned from past cases but no - kids climbing all over things unsupervised, swinging on doors, windows wide open with children climbing/sitting on the ledges right by them.

Every year I am reading of kids falling out of windows at school - falling, not jumping. And yet, it is swept under the carpet and we all move on, and it happens again. We trust our kids to these places and assume that they are at the very least safe.

I am not so worried about my daughter, but my son will be starting Japanese school in a few years and is already intent on becoming a candidate for a Darwin award even at the age of 4. It takes all my wits on a daily basis to protect him from himself(!) and god only knows how a teacher with 35 other little hoodlums is going to manage it!

There are many traditions around the world that may be part of historical culture but shouldn`t necessarily continue in a modern, civilised world.

In this case however I don`t know what theya re so afraid of. The idea of millions of Japanese getting up to protest...well...anything....is pretty laughable to me.