mano2012 comments

They are leaving precisely because they are not irrational. The communists are never going to change, and Japan >finally realizes this. Why would they continue risking their investments in such an unstable country. That would be >irrational. The few communists who can actually afford Japanese products will continue to buy them (since there are >no domestic products comparable in quality ) and Japan will minimize risk by setting up their factories and conducting >investment activities back in Japan or in other more welcoming Asian countries. As you said, its the rational thing to do.

the japanese businessmen have been doing Great for the last 30 yrs with their investments in china! ask them! they are leaving not because of the gov of china, rather the ppl in china are rejecting japan products. u should ask the ppl there: Why?

@herve and nikku

everyone is entitled to their opinions :) but what i can tell u, japan is losing in this 'war' chess game. abe will win, and china-japan will battle it out for more in the coming months and years, but at the end of the day, countries will lose respect for japan.. it's so very clear like night and day.

I believe you are mistaken sir. They sided with no one. They are not interested in getting involved. The communists are the nutter on the bus and everyone knows it.

u can get technical, just 1 question: name 1 single country (other than the Us) which supports japan on this diaoyu matter ?!

Ummm, no. The Japanese are leaving communist china because the communists have proven (once again) that they >cannot work or play well with others. I think other Asian countries know this fact only too well. Actually, I'm sure I saw a >post yesterday from Thailand calling Japan "a hero". Its a shame really, but one could count the "friends of china" on >one finger.

think about it.. businessmen are not irrational. Why they r leaving? think about it. it is because the ppl in china r rejecting japan by rejecting japan products. then ask again, why?

The article you site never mentions any of the countries supporting china either. But good look with the cute china mascot thing

show me, name any country (except the Us) which supports japan on this diaoyu matter ??

mano Communist China will have to use force to take our islands. The maritime self defense force is waiting for them. This will be the first full scale test of Russian naval technology vs American naval technology.

u forgot sun tzu.. win a war without firing a single shot. japan is already losing this "war" chess game. all countries in the world side with china, except the usa siding with japan. think about it. Why?

They didn't exactly "reject" Japan's requests, more like avoided taking a position.

Ever been on a bus or some other public transportation when one mentally unbalanced person is giving another >individual a hard time? Usually most of the other passengers will look at the roof, out the window, anywhere but at the >spot that the drama is taking place. Its rare for someone to speak up and say to the trouble maker "hey nutter, back >off". Its a weakness in human nature based on self-preservation. I think the same principle applies here.

u r giving a wrong analogy. those eu countries have their legal experts who advise their governments on these matters. they know what they are talking about when they rejected japan re: foreign minister. they sided with china for legal reasons.

@peanut666

i think we have discussed ad nauseam about the legality of diaoyu on many threads, check my profile for links to those threads.

the islands do Not belong to japan. those eu countries have their legal experts who advise them on this diaoyu matters, so they know what they are talking about.

fyi:

"Japan fails to win support on Senkakus issue from Europe's 'Big 3' October 20, 2012

THE ASAHI SHIMBUN

Despite his announcements of achievements, Foreign Minister Koichiro Genba failed to win clear support from France, Britain and Germany for Japan’s sovereignty claims to the Senkaku Islands during his European tour.

"Japan fails to win support on Senkakus issue from Europe's 'Big 3' October 20, 2012

THE ASAHI SHIMBUN

Despite his announcements of achievements, Foreign Minister Koichiro Genba failed to win clear support from France, Britain and Germany for Japan’s sovereignty claims to the Senkaku Islands during his European tour.

Really Mano? I seem to recall the state department of the USA saying they will support Japan on this matter.

Thats the thing, u hit it right on the bull's eye. Only the US is supporting japan. Japan is basically a puppet of the Us gov.

But ppl in Asia, especially countries in s.e. asia are watching and they can read all kinds of links..and read the History since 1895 re: diaoyu and they can make their own conclusion. As i said..japan is being psuhed out of china, Unfortunately... then japan will invest in s.e.asia..sure they welcome some money..but they are already losing Respect for japan when they see china is pushing japan out. It's that simple, really.

The islands do not belong to Japan. All countries and ppl in the world are watching this, and they are on China's side. The major EU countries rejected Japan's FM when he asked for their support during his visit a few months ago. Basically, they said: sorry japan, No!

Japan is being pushed out of China as a result of this and products are being boycotted. You know what.. when other Asian countries see that, they will start to lose respect for Japan.. Game over, really.

The islands do not belong to Japan. All countries and ppl in the world are watching this, and they are on China's side. The major EU countries rejected Japan's FM when he asked for their support during his visit a few months ago. Basically, they said: sorry japan, No!

Japan is being pushed out of China as a result of this and products are being boycotted. You know what.. when other Asian countries see that, they will start to lose respect for Japan.. Game over, really.

I think japan should retaliate by starting to develop on senkaku, start drilling for oil and watch that $$ flow in!

How can you develop something that does not belong to you??

A few weeks ago, Japan foreign minister went to europe to try to get support from major EU countries, but they rejected him by saying that Japan is on the wrong side.

The Chinese economy is about to go down the tubes, expect more chest thumping to distract the populace from their real problems

China is moving forward towards its own internal economy, it dont need japan.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90778/7966979.html

Game over for Japan, unfortunately. China is just too big for Japan.

American Power is in Terminal Decline http://www.thiscantbehappening.net/node/1468

Japan falls into recession http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/10/japan-recession

Bring it on China, throw the first punch and watch the world hate you even more.

It's not gonna happen though. China will try to push Japan aside using economic means.

"This month, during my first return to Japan in a decade, I put that assertion to an English friend who had lived even longer in Tokyo. “That’s about right,” he said, “battered by deflation and a overly strong currency, the Japanese have concluded that they can’t compete with a rising China and are withdrawing into themselves.” "

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/japan-is-in-worse-than-a-deflationary-trap-2012-11-01

@samurai

What I was trying to tell you is that China is publishing the history of ww2, the imperialistic Japan.

Japan has Lost the Goodwill among the Chinese ppl as they have started boycotting Japanese products. Now, Japan is starting to lose goodwill among the world's population. There is something Japan can learn from this error in diplomacy.

The bombing of pearl harbor was not part of the trial. In hind sight, pearl harbor attack was completely legitimate since the US government financed and provided various human resources to the Flying Tiger squadron which fought against the Japanese Imperial Army in China.

so what you were implying that the Japanese invasion into China was justified. Again, you provide the best logic ;)

In short, he is trying to say that China has everything more and better than Japan and will win in a non-nuclear conflict over the islands or anything else.

lol. Not really. The previous poster was making a comment, probably sarcastic, or did not have a more complete knowledge. ("Come on, their ships are few and far between not to mention that they are older than a dirt)

I simply wanted to supply an objective and publicly available info. ;)

Your link eventually leads to a 100+ page report of mostly graph (which rank China ahead of Japan in almost every field). In short, what are you trying to say?

I was giving credibility to your statement about "Dont sell them short" ;)

Three types of "international waters", this one is the one where Japan can force them to obey certain laws in addition to economic exclusive zone related laws. This isn't the high seas.

Lets not forget that KAL 007 was further out at sea when the Russians shot it down for absolutely no reason. This can certainly go south quickly.

Nothing is gonna happen, yet. These 7 ships are out in the open, so neither side want to escalate it, yet.

anyway, according to this: "The ships were believed to be returning to China after training in the Pacific."

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/politics/AJ201210160060

They have the third biggest Navy in the world, mostly geared for amphibious warfare, have had an extensive modernization program since the mid 1980's. Don't sell them short.

The Military Balance in Asia, 1990-2011

http://csis.org/publication/military-balance-asia-1990-2011

it is ok people can see clearly the real face of china . china is only barking nicely but all others is dishonest , lying , bullying , cheating , selfish , small minded , and mean it

btw, you might want to read this academic thesis on Diaoyu issue: http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/10092/4085/1/thesis_fulltext.pdf

and since we are on the boycott subject, Im wondering what the Sept. data would look like, here is the Aug one:

10/15/2012 12:49 AM ET Japanese industrial production declined 1.6 percent in August from a month ago, bigger than the 1.3 percent drop initially estimated, final data from the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry showed Monday. On a yearly basis, output was down 4.6 percent.

Growth in shipments was revised down to 0.2 percent from 0.4 percent, while inventory fell 1.6 percent, in line with initial estimate. Inventory ratio dropped 2.3 percent compared to the preliminary estimate of 2.9 percent decrease.

Capacity utilization slipped by seasonally adjusted 2.6 percent month-on-month in August, reversing last month's 0.5 percent growth.

http://www.rttnews.com/1982878/japan-aug-industrial-output-falls-more-than-initial-forecast.aspx

There is nothing wrong with OssanAmerica's logic, as well as Noda's. Don't twist the words. The notion is commonly known as private property, also in China. The land, which constitutes certain country and lies within the country's borders does often belong to private individuals, and not to the government of the said country. By buying the land from those individuals, the government did not make the land more or less Japanese, as Chinese are trying to speculate, but it did remove the islands from being the object and the tool of future extremist deeds, press and public speculations and shows by Japanese nationalists.

and

No, private ownership of property and what country that property is part of are two different isses. But I won't bother explaining this basic concept to you as another poster has already done so. It's far from "insanity" as you call it, it's common sense, When the Japanese government pre-empted Ishihara from developing the islands, i.e; "provoking China" if you want to call it, they acted to maintain the status quo. From a practical point of view the Japanese government's purchase made no difference to China whatsoever, the Senkakus still were under Japanese administration, and China still has a claim. Situation unchanged. The Chinese government could have accepted this solution, but instead they chose to use the purchase by the Japanese government as an excuse to escalate the issue into a political amd economic crisis, destroying the Sino-Japanese goodwill that has been in place for 40 years and now isolating itself from not just Japan but the rest or the world. Good luck to them because they've proven to the world that they are far from leadership materiel.

huh. accept that solution? lol. what planet r u from? The fact is: Noda went to the UN and said in front of all countries that the islands belong to japan! If his intention was genuine in the first place, he would have Let ishihara do his deeds and then the japan gov would take care of the situation with a strong hammer for Ishihara! But instead, Noda/gov just ignored the Diplomatic agreement btw Deng & Tanaka that the issue should be Shelved until further notice, forever if necessary.

No point in quoting Chinese state controlled propaganda to support any discussion.

No. I have posted countless of other links: here are 2 from Japanese professors!

http://www.skycitygallery.com/japan/diaohist.html http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-china-japan-islands-20120925,0,216163.story

To keep the growth high, they spent and spent and spent on constructions. In a earlier post you said that it's a 30-year plan by the PRC gov, really? No idiots would build a highrise to let it be empty for 3 decades, roads that no cars run on.

It's demand that leads to supply, while supply doesn't mean demand will arise.

Not to mention, most of these constructions are low quality due to corruption, they won't last that long.

We shall see.. Im not an urban planner or even in any related field, however, just by reading this report alone, it would not be difficult to arrive at a conclusion that the gov has calculated their tasks.

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/governance/urban-trends-and-policy-in-china_225205036417

Japan apologized for and settled all WWII issues directly with Mao Tse Tung and Chou En Lai in 1972 with both nations signing the Sino-Japanese Treaty of Friendship, reaffirmed again in 1978. Japan as the first "western" (as in democratic) nation to invest in China and suppport it's modernizxation. Japan pre-empted Ishiharab from provoking China by buying he islands. Yet, China chose to escalate the issue and act like a 5 year old. By mixing politics with economics China has gained zero support in this world, only criticism.Japan is hardly "pouring salt into it's wounds". China is an aggressor nation that is threateing all of it;s Asian neighbors and is unfit for any leadership role in the world as this article indicates.

Your logic is the same as that of Noda's, it's called Insanity! How could one say he owns something in the first place, and then later buys it to confirm what he said!

Here's a recent article from China though: http://www.chinadailyapac.com/article/facing-war-history-and-facts

So are you saying you were out attacking fellow Chinese citizens for buying Japanese products and attacking Japanese citizens in China while they eat?

The citizens of Greece, Spain and the US all have the right to demonstrate and criticise their governments for what they see as poor policy. China's government has created an issue to occupy its citizens during the imminent change in leadership. When this process has passed and the Senkaku issue has blown over, do you think those Chinese citizens will be allowed to turn their attention to their own leaderships failings? I very much doubt it.

There are always a small% of ppl who would deviate from the mostly sane and reasonable ppl who demonstrated to show their anger for what Japan did.

In my view, the ppl had 2 points to make:

to send a msg to japan to send a msg to the china gov that they need to guard china;s sovereignty.

The West fed & made China what it is today. Yeah sure China did some too but if the west never let Chinese study at Uni's all over the world since the 80s, nurtured connections, invested heavily in China, allowed China to steal & copy & milk technology since the 80s, etc etc.............. If that didnt happen China wud be no where near where it is today, to be sure China & its people worked hard but the west GAVE/ALLOWED China an aweful lot............. & here we are.

Many many centuries ago, the center of knowledge was in China, India, and the Middle-east, and eventually several centuries ago it then moved to France, then Germany, then UK, and finally to the US. Now, it is shifting back to the east: China, and eventually India will join back in.

Its starting to look like while the west's rich are making out like thieves wrt to all this & have devastated a lot of industry in the west & now even white collar jobs there, we may have created a real monster in China. Hopefully China will be smarter & not stir the pot so much, BUT if it does, the west(while messed up financially) can still take the monster down if need be......... hopefully it wont come to that but it cud!

Not really. Again, it's all coming back in circle. Read about the Silk Road etc. China had been trading with many countries centuries and centuries ago. China had a bad century, basically from around mid 1800s to mid 1900s.

It's like saying the West allowing Germany to become a manufacturing Giant. Thats nonsense. The fact is: China having population over 10 times that of Germany will surely have a bigger impact!

Correct but that building took place over a 30 year period, fromt the 1930's until the 1960's. The PRC by contrast as a whole is still living in the 1920's. So the PRC will not be up to par until around 2050. Now if the PRC goes into overdrive and spends everything they can building up they could cut that timefrmae by about 10 years. But if it out builds what it's nation can handle then it will be in trouble.

You cannot really compare China and the US by using linear methods because both have different demographic, political and economic growth/plans.

That is the biggest mistake it can do at this time. The PRC does not have any true threats in the region. Russia, Korea, Japan and the United States do not wish a war with them they need the PRC's cheap labor. So to spend good money on bad investments is truely shortsighted. The no plane carrier is a perfect example of this.

then I have 2 news for you! http://csis.org/publication/military-balance-asia-1990-2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2Vjn7RkrJU&feature=related -- watch the top left guy talking about the US