Shrkb8 comments

I am personally against killing dolphins and whales. But if the killing were humane, the populations managed responsibly, and the young and their mothers were spared, I would not be so outraged. I am a realist and I do believe in compromise. But drive kills do not meet any of these criteria. It is the cruelty of the drive kill that outrages the general populace.

I have never raised the mercury poisoning argument. If the people are aware of the mercury levels and still choose to eat the meat, that is their worry, not mine. The pest argument used by the fishermen, does not stand up to scrutiny. The tradition argument, as I think recent writers on both sides have stated is not a reasonable argument in this case.

Glad everyone is backing off the tradition argument. The weaving around has been on the pro drive kill side, the anti drive kill stance has been consistent. Drive kills are cruel and they should be stopped.

If a few residents watch the DVD and begin to see the other side, perhaps opposition to the drive kills will come from within Taiji and the practice will stop....just as it has through the rest of Japan.

I would think out of 3500 people, some would be curious enough to watch. If they watch, they would better understand the perception of those opposing the drive killing. Understanding both points of view is a step in the right direction. I believe a percentage of those who view it will change their minds and be concerned for the plight of dolphins in the dolphin kill/capture.

Information is enlightenment. It allows freedom of choice. The Taiji fishermen should not fear information or different perspective if they truly feel they are in the right.

Nigelboy,

I am afraid the arguments are circular and I am just repeating myself.

Japan should change their laws to forbid drive killing of whales and dolphins becasue it is cruel and bad resource management practice.

The current killing method is not traditional and for all the reasons previously cited is a lame rationalization for ignoring the cruelty.

I am not sure what you mean by "most countries" but most industrialized countries have outlawed drive kills and have protected dolphins and whales. Even the Chinese have ridiculed Japan for its whaling and dolphin killing practices...how ironic is that?

Nigelboy,

The first point is that it should be illegal because it is cruel by today's standards and it is not good managmeent practice. The second point is that we should not ignore a wrong just because it is limited to 26 people. Third is that your current argument is a 180 flip flop on the tradition and culture argument that has been so vehemently used as justification by the drive kill advocates.

You would think Japan, one of the most modern and forward leaning countries in the world, would take action against cruelty of the magnitude that occurs in the Taiji dolphin kills.

Nigelboy,

You missed my whole point. There was no drive killing of dolphins in Taiji in recent history until the mid 70s (the late 60s if you include pilot whales). That is drive killing by any means - the old ancient way with hundreds of boats and nets or by motorized sonic means. Sometime, generations ago, dolphin drive kills were abandoned in Taiji. So the dolphin drive kills in Taiji are a recent phenomenon.

But that does not matter. Even if it were traditional, it is only done by 26 people in all of Japan. It is not a good management practice. It is cruel and inhumane by modern standards. It should be stopped.

Nigelboy,

Point me to some evidence that shows motoized dolphin drive kills in Taiji in the 50's. The type of hunt you are referencing used nets and is more like net fishing than the current drive kills. That type of hunting did not continue in Taiji and modern drive kills on dolphins only began in Taiji in the mid seventies from any source I can find.

Only 26 people in all of Japan do this anymore. By today's standards it is cruel and inhumane. It is a poor management practice. It's time to put it to an end.

Hikozaemon,

You ask who cares about the tradition and culture argument. You treat it like the those against the drive kills are the ones who introduced it. It is the drive kill advocates who try to use these arguments. We are just pointing out how tenuous the argument really is.

As others have said, video evidence shows the killing methods are cruel. and taking out whole pods of mammals with such long gestation periods and relatively low reproductions rates is not a responsible sustainment management practice.

The clash is over 26 people performing a cruel act. It is amazing to me that it is still allowed in such an advanced country like Japan, now that it has come to the light of day. Seems like stubborn pride over reason and sensibility.

Mr. Dog,

First off,dolphins are a separate family. I stand by that, it is well documented. Second the key point that you seem to keep avoidng, possibly because it is so damning, is that the drive kills of dolphins (which is what the article is about) only started in the mid seventies and in all of Japan on 26 people do it. This makes the whole culture and tradition argument unsupportable. Point us to any evidence that the motorized drive kills of dolphins occured in Taiji prior to the mid seventies. They did not start these drive kills on pilot whales until the late 60s.

The director of the cove has his own anti dolphin kill organization is not a leader in SSCS. You call the Cove watchers thugs, what have they done to be called thugs? They've not threatened anyone with violence. All they do is watch and report. That is not a thug by any definition.

Mr. dog,

Dolphins are a family unto themselves. Killer Whales and Pilot Whales belong to this family so their common name is deceptive. The whales are separate families from the dolphins. Hopefully, that is clear enough for you.

I think if you take the preponderance of evidence, which I do not ignore.... The dolphin drive kills of the 26 Taiji fishermen that only started in the mid 70s are neither tradition nor culture. I buy that whale hunting and fishing are a tradition in Taiji, I don't buy that the current drive kills are. And regardless, the current kill method does not kill quickly as evidenced by recent videos and most rational and unbiased viewers would consider it cruel.

Mr. dog,

Thank you for supporting my argument. I don't contribute to that organization, but it seems like money well spent. The movie does not demonize the townspeople. It shows what a drive kill really is. It shows that the fishing officials either misrepresented it or didn't know what was going on. I do have to admit that Private Space would be an embarrassment to any town.

Crazy john,

The only place dolphin drive kills take place today is Taiji. The 26 fishermen who do it only started in the mid 70's. Hardly a culture or tradition.

Zenny11,

A tradition is something handed down between multiple generations. 26 people doing something since the mid seventies hardly qualifies. Culture, in this meaning, is a set of beliefs, practices and ways of life across multiple generations for a defined population. Again, 26 people out of 3500 doing something since the mid 70s would be a real stretch of the definition.

Crazy John,

You are incorrect. dolphins are not whales. Some dolphins though are called whales. The fact remains that drive kills of dolphins did not start until the mid seventies. Drive kills of dolphins are neither part of the culture nor part of the tradition.

Crazy John,

Studies and video evidence shows that the Taiji kill method takes an average of 10 minutes for until the victim dies and then it is usually by drowning. That is a slow, cruel death by any measure. So there is something wrong with slaughtering dolphins in this way.

Crazy John,

Taiji only started targeting dolphins in the mid seventies. It is not a culture or tradition.

Good Jorb,

Sorry, a statement you made earlier regarding Taiji fishing managemnet practices could be read two different ways. It appears I chose the wrong interpretation.

The article quotes a "senior member of the association" but never says what association..is it the unnamed town hall official cited earlier in the article? A member of the local fishermen's Union?

Mr. Dog,

According to Good Jorb, the fishermen at Taiji have improved their fish managment practices which should increase fish populations. However,given the evidence that dolphin populations have not increased in Japanese waters, the argument that dolphins are the cause of any declining fish population is laughable. All signs point to man being the reason fish stocks are declining - either through overfishing or pollution. The argument that dolphins are the cause of fish population declines is an unsupportable excuse not a valid reason to justify drive killing of dolphins

Good Jorb,

Your argument is circular. If the Taiji fishermen kill dolphins because of their impact on fish population (which is unsupported by any evidence), and the fishermen have implemented better fish management procedures which have increased the populations, why are they still doing dolphin drive kills?

Comparing the dolphin drive kills to culling animal overpopulations is baseless until you show an over population of dolphins. Historic dolphin population statistics do not support that argument however.

Hikozaemon,

You've got your pro-dolphin kill glasses on. The Japanese fishing ministries quit supplying data on the kills. Recent data shows 10 minutes between stabbing and dieing. 10 minutes is not amazingly quick by any measure. It is cruel and inhumane. Even the live capture video shows the handlers drowning candidates for live capture after punching them and holding them underwater for extended periods of time in an effort to exhasut them into submission. Again cruel and inhumane. If you think its so quick and humane, you should have no problem with distribution of the videos.

Gurukun,

They certainly have not been using motor boats to drive entire pods of dolphins in for centuries. Taiji has been a whaling center for centuries. But, Taiji did not start targeting dolphins until the mid 70's. In fact Taiji only started going after short-finned pilot whales in 69. Not sure how that can be counted as a tradition.

Zenny11,

Since this article is on dolphins, not sure what the reference to exploding harpoons is all about. This is about drive killing of dolphins. But comparing the take of American natives to the Japanese take is orders of magnitude off.

People make like anyone complaining about the cruelty fo current drive killing techniques is a foreign assault on the traditions of the entire nation of Japan. If you actually watched the Cove with an open mind, you would see it is targeted at the fishermen and officials who perpetrate the killing. There is no attempt to assault the Japanese people or culture. The same fight has been going against the killing of baby seals in Canada, against shark finning in numerous countries.

These are not assaults on culture. They are assaults on cruelty. If anyone believes that the kills are not cruel, they should have no heartburn with making the videos available.

I am unaware of any hunting method in any industrialized country that drives entire herds of mammals into a confined space and then takes all the members of the herd regardless of age, sex, mother/infant pairing.

The addition of technology to any hunting scheme is a game changer and must be assessed in light of its impact on breeding populations. Taking out whole pods is bad practice.

Combine the indiscriminate killing with the cruelty and the objection of people around the world, and I am unsure why anyone would jump to the aid of the 28 fishermen who do it, especially when one of their main representatives is someone like Private Space.

The 28 fishermen could alter their methods, be more discriminant and let females with young and all juvenile dolphins go. But they show zero compromise. Instead they hide it. They call dolphins pests and claim they impact fish populations. The arguments are ludicrous and laughable.

Gurukin,

You act as though their are no standards in Japan, and I know that not to be true. I am sure cattle Japan are killed more mercifully than the dolphins. There are no people in the Antarctic that have been doing this "for ages", so I'm not sure what you are talking about. How can a killing method that relies on power boats be traditional or a heritage?

When is the action of two dozen people out of 270,000,000 the Japanese standard? I would say Taiji is an anomaly not a cultural tradition. If they went out in traditionally made boats and took dolphins in a traditional way going back generations, you might have a case. But that is not the case here, by a long shot.

Gurukun,

The dolphin drive kills are cruel and inhumane. First the argument was the killing method was near instantaneous. Now that that has been proven to be inaccurate you want to argue standards to measure humaneness. It seems the argument changes whenever the perpetrators (the fishermen and the fishing ministry officials) are caught not telling the truth. The strategy has been deny it, hide it, misrepresent it, then try to divert the argument. The death is not instantaneous or anywhere near so. Anyone that sees the dolphins struggling after the stabbing can only conclude that the animal was frightened and in pain for a prolonged period of time. And again there are no limits as to age, and whether there is an infant/mother pair in the group. This killing does not meet the standards used in hunting either.

Hikozaemon,

You must have watched a different video. In the more recent Sea Shepherd video. The are dragged by their tails and left to struggle against the rope while trying to breath. Then a a guy stabs a long rod about six times behind its blowhole and then it kicks and struggles in pain for a long time until it finally dies.

In the Cove they show them stabbing dolphins and then the dolphins struggling to keep their blow holes out of the water while they slowly bleed to death or drown as blood fills their lungs. How fast they load them after the slaughter has nothing to do with the cruelty of their death.

Your perception of both the portrayal of the Japanese and the manner of killing the dolphins seems heavily colored by your bias.

Anyone who sees how these dolphins are killed would have to agree it is not quick and it is not humane. Recent Sea Shepherd video is even more damning than the documentary. Add to that that there is no discrimination between young and mature and mothers and their young and it worsens the outrage. The world reacts to cruelty and it is not singled out at Japan or dolphins.

hikozaeman,

As an American watching the Cove, I never took the documentary to be condemning all Japanese. I took it that the Taiji dolphin hunters were very confrontational (Private Space must be a national embarrassment, not Japan's best ambassador) and callus toward the fate of the dolphins. I took it the government officials in chqrge of regulating the dolphin hunt were pro dolphin kills to the point of misleading the public. But I did not take away that all Japanese are cruel and arrogant. In fact I thought there was a good highlight of those who stood up to stop feeding the mercury laden dolphin meat to school kids in Taiji. I thought them very brave in the face of the opposition of the fishermen union in Taiji.

So perhaps, it is Japanese that perceive the documentary to be against all Japanese. I didn't see it that way, and I have no dog in the fight.

Hikozaemom,

I think you are wrong about the motive. I think the point of the movie is to educate and put an end to drive kills. I believe this is what drives Ric and Louie. I believe both of them would gladlymove on if drive kills were stopped. I sensed that Ric feels guilty for popularizing the capture of dolphins through his work on Flipper. This is his self imposed penance to try to right what he feels he wronged. To ascribe other motives is not born out by any evidence?

Sending the residents of Taiji a copy of the DVD is no more offensive then receiving an ad or a credit card application in the mail. No one is forcing them to watch it.