TonyUS comments

Funny Taniwa seems you repeated about half of my words with your own. So seems you agree half way.. hahaha

The only thing you left out was how China is capable and how China come about to carry our debt... FROM US!!!!!! US policies started back in nixon's time when openning up dialoge with CHina and Carter continuing to engage with them and so on.

But as for de-regulation you are right but not just financial markets. ,, everything, and as for no competition these days, there is none when it comes to major corporations such as oil industry, gas industry all energy related industries, so there is no limit on price and profits of these corporations. and it is driving many to the breaking point because of rising costs on all items because everything is connected to energy, if not in production , then in transporting the goods..

Do not want to touch on to much or go into depth to much either or the point gets lost, it seems..

But one thing for certain as long as there are different leaders of different regions ,, there is going to be conflicts, At this time in period we are supporting China’s build up so to face a conflict with them later and that is only proven fact through out history and the reason , as you have said, why Iran, China and others are building militarily.

Hahaha democrats are to blame.. let's go back 10 14 years ago and blame it on them.. I find those words by the extremist republicans very laughable,, just like the extremist Dems would sayClinton had no part of the economic booms with China and the huge trade imbalance with them and BUsh pushing it even further.. But hey. I hear this crap from many die hards. Want to blame today's situation on one period of time and one person a decade ago. hahaha Funny thing is Bush has let it get to the melt down we see today.. You know ""today"" ridsr??? plus the last eight years getting us to this point of "today" unbelieveable

I believe all have a grasp on causes. As I read these posts arguing the points of greed, profits plus large corporate interests trumping government policies.

All together has brought us to the point of today’s situation.. cost of living, soaring energy costs and greed, no controls on these large corporations that has no limit on profits and no competition to balance out the unlimited profits these large corporations are generating when the sky is the limit because they have no competition that can put the brakes on margin of profit. Isn't this describing a monopoly of sort. Sure free trade and open markets, but to compete, all have to move overseas with low labor costs, no environmental agencies to comply to and over to countries where human rights have no bearing.

All these bailouts are of government policies that refuse to deal with the main problem behind all of this and that is cost of living. People are losing everything as we speak because the cost of living has increased beyond many people's means. What they could afford say 5 years ago is not what they can afford today. Five years ago their mortgages and borrowing was not a risk because of their financial situation at that time, but five years later with all the increased expenses mainly due to the triple rise in cost of energy has affected everything as a consumer and has brought so many to that breaking point where they just can not make ends meet like they were able to five years ago when applying for loans and mortgages. Companies are able to go overseas and produce products at dirt rate expense and at the same time those jobs that were here are disappearing and just adds to the numbers. I see many factors that has created what we are experiencing now but as for the main one .. I see it as being that of a major imbalance in trade policies and , but other major problems the government has co-towed to large corporations that has done nothing for us as the government keeps giving them incentives trying to convince everyone that they are our saviors when all they have done is pocketed their profits and also added to their profits the incentives the government has provided them with and then move the jobs overseas to beat all..

Maybe my view absurd to some but I am so sick of what has been going on.. looking at China with growth rates of 10, 11, 12 percent, ours come up to 1.9 percent and looking at recession or in recession as China is trying to cool down their economy where all the manufacturing there is allowed to feed us products at a no ended pace. Now who is the winner and who are the losers? We have countries rising above us because of large economic growths from the price we must pay for oil, gas and other resources connected to energy and these that are growing in wealth are now very openly showing the snake like heads in the world and bringing us more and more problems to deal with, and other countries that are not yet a threat , such as China that supports others that are our problem that will veto UN resolutions to put halts to those that are becoming grave threats to us and our allies around the word. What has our open policies gained us? Nothing but, where we are now. Has it gained us friendship and respect. I do not see anything in that regard. I do see them taking it all in with open arms though and at the same time building military power directed directly at our own so they can knock us our of our dominating positions we have held since WWII such as in Asia with China building its military to the max. Russia and Venezuela joint military ventures along with Russia aggressive stance on Antarctica and military bomber flights they resumed last year. All of these issues are related and not one is the single element or cause but when all have combined, we have great problems all due to policies and must say irresponsible policies and not just by one single party in Washington..

Sez it is Russia's actions and their system that has faltered back to controls and its aggressive actions. .. And Why you defend such a government that has backpeddles on reforms.. There is something you are not telling. This is where you want to deny democracy as a part of this. Georgia is a democracy set with in invaded borders as we witness today SEZ.. A country set by laws and of the will of its people within these borders and S. Ossetia is within these borders and not of RUSSIA.Get it?? That is not too hard of a point to let settle in. Look at a map if you need it more defined..watch the news they will show you a map of the borders and where S. Ossetia lies. Within these borders lies a government that is voted in by the majority vote of the people... Still with me??? Now where did I miss something when it comes to soverienty of a country?? Tell me where you bring Russia ahaving a right to be within Georgia's borders with a government in place and voted into place for that country by the majority of the country. S,Ossetia is full of separatists along with incividuals that are for a united government that was elected in by even some of these people that live in S. Ossetia that do not have Russian passports.. that you say has claim to????? What is that statement all abuout.. Again get you a map and look at the borders that Russia has trampled over and from the beginning stayed within.

again Exactly .,. the Georgians you are Georgians that migrated there during the Soviet Union

here is one of your post that you say you are not sure of now but was earlier..as you said above...

Furthermore, you seem to suggest that the Georgian minority have the only claim to these lands, which, I think is not true.

TonyUS,

I don't know how many times that I have to say that I know that South Ossetia is a part of Georgia. No matter how many times you repeat this fact, it adds nothing to your argument. No matter how many times you suggest that I don't know this fact, it adds nothing to your argument.

here is where your assumption that Georgia is lying and now say you did not take a stance as such

Yes, Georgia is trying to change the prevailing story regarding what happened. Did you ever know a politician to introduce evidence to claim something that was not the case? Let me know when it has been established that the phone intercepts prove what Georgia is now saying. Or should I ask that you let me know when what Georgia is only now saying is proven to be true. But you do not say prove that Russia's story is the truth and that it is an established story when it is only Russia that come out with that statatement, I seen where there was anything to back that as being the truth .only Russia's statement.

I'm also aware of that South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia.

And who are S, Ossetians??? You are wrong.. not all wish that , it may be the majority there but those are migrants from Soviet Union which is the majority and the arguement has been all along that Russia's actions was to protect these people with Russian passports as if these people are Russian citizens, and they are not. Your littel twist here is trying to catagorize them as Ossetians instaed of Georgians, in which they are, but for some reason have Russian passports instead of Georgian passports.

I do not argue the points? All I list are points and facts while you want your words to mean one thing until you are confronted on them, then you say you d id notmean it in that text but something different.. just have to shake my head. You are all over the place SEZ even when it comes to your own statements.

As for who planned what and who was first to act, no has proven anything on either side so let us see the proof from one of them to confirm their statements as to the order of events. No one knows if there has been no proof brought forward including Russia.

W

Russia you are a joke with the statement of Russia more to be a member of NAO.. The reason NATO was started because of Russia and its aggression against its neighbors and others like it.

I do not know where your little world is but it has made an impact on you that is far fetched and full of propaganda that is of deceit when it comes to trying to state facts that are nothing but false. Try to twist your statements that mean one thing and try to say they mean something else, Come on… Those that support suppression because of not knowing any better stay this course you are using to make an argument/ I would rather use sarcasm than some remarks that have nothing but deception stated within them.

Is it Georgia trying to change the story or is it Putin and his goons lying? Seems you know the answer to that before the truth is even found out. Congratulations on your inside info..

As aborigines go I am stating at this time SEZ…are those people that did not immigrate from screwed up Russia during the Soviet era, those that have ancestral ties to the land and yes there are those that live there which may be a minority at this time from the infiltration of Russians but they are still there and have every right to stay there and be part of the country of Georgia, but not in your twisted view of the matter. Oh you never said that?? Hahaha Yeah right. Now you say the Russians you have been defending are Georgians,, What the heck or where the heck did that come from? Well why the hell do they have Russian passports and this was in one of your posts that was a reason they neede to be protected, beez you are all over the place SEZ. Your words and statements or so contradicting and just getting down right pathetic.

Seems you want to jump all over the idea that Russia is telling the truth and deny any assumption Georgia is lying and Russia is to blame.. Which Russia is to blame for all of this because they never left Independent Georgia to begin with. So your argument does not even have a base to start with/ Russia has been the main instigator from the very beginning and that is a statement of FACT. Take it as being rude if you wish but the truth is the truth like it or not. No trying to sugar coat the demon that is raising its head and there are many allies rethinking Russia's aggressive stance in the region , even Australia considering stopping sales of Uranium to them because of all this going on.. Sorry to say but you are standing with the losers and those seen as the one to instigate their own separation from the world and its affairs.. I know you just cannot stand that.. Big bad Russia is going back to its rightful position in the world to be Mr. Putin’s long time retraction of a society that is a friend to the world.. Putin started the reversal from the first time he became president with his KGB background leading his direction for the country. Too bad the people are willing to go back to where they fell from in the past.

Call me rude?? It is fine I have heard China supporters attack those opposed to communist rule the same way.. I have debated many propagandists in the past mainly from China but here on this issue with Russia you are definitely a pro Russia propagandist, as for trying to twist statements you have made into meaning something other than what they were originally and to support another country invading another smaller less powerful one , it shows your remarkable sence of big guy controlling the little one. Oh you did not say that directly? :) It is being said with every one of your posts, twist it as you wish but the meaning is plain.

the problem is this and is that. Well the problems I read that arte listed is not one that is responsible.. How about all of the above and then some. Want to talk unbalanced trade practices, instead of US citizens getting up in the morning going to jobs to make our produces we have more and more Chinese getting up in the mornings going to work to make our goods. While Beijing worries over an overheated economy we are worried about recession. And we wonder what has happened to our growth…. Why everyone is loosing everything even their homes. What is a point no one makes is that these people were paying on their loans fine when approved. They want to talk about risky mortgages and all of that, but what has changed between then is now is the same money not going as far as energy prices went out of control and those making mortgage p[payments , making the same money has not enough now, since the price of everything has doubled and tripled in price and these people are making no more money , Blame it on the people and loans,, I blame it on the out of control rise in everything across the board. Or the continuing job losses where all are jobs and production is allowed to go overseas at will and no limits on them shipping these items back made by the hands of others. The US system has gone directly to the dogs.. Actually gave to the dogs (large corporations) Now the ripple effects keep coming in, Everyone is going bust!

seems Pakistan could use some help and may be begging for it after some time goes by..

Taliban attack kills three police in Pakistan: official

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080916/wl_asia_afp/pakistanunrestnorthwest;_ylt=Ao1l57bJUow0EFfcjiUf_HwBxg8F

DennisObauer. It is not just in the US interest to fight terroists this is a growing problem in many countries.. You wish to deny the problem?? I guess so by your remark. Just take a look at all international news and past events. These terroists groups are spread out across the word. Just alqaida covers many countries and then the militant groups such as the Taliban that supports alqaida. It is more than just a problem of the US and many countries have to eventually realize the threat posed by these groups and many already understand the problems ahead needing dealt with but do not have the forces to deal with these problems as we see with Pakistan.. but in this case poses the threat to more US casualties in Afganistan along with murders within Pakistan as well.

lets go republican leadership/// 4 more years, hell why not 8 12 15 maybe then we would be pulling ourselves out from being a third world country.

hmmm hard situation, but if these guys are going into Pakastan to seek saftey after killing American troops... well.. I say follow them and get rid of them by all means. If Pakistan is not waiting there to catch the killers, then American troops I see has the right to go after the murderers that are willing and trying to kill them.

Someone brought up Mexico and US in this situation, well the US would be there on the border to catch these guys. If Pakistan is not there to do such operations these guys have a safe haven as soon as they flee across the border and untouchable after killing troops that are fighting a war, which makes them also militants of this same war and should be tracked down and killed, if not by US forces then by Pakistan. which we see has not the ability. This means they should get away with muder? I say no! If Pakiastan thinks this is wrong then they are harboring fugitives and terroist militants and would also be guilty of helping the terrorists.

Who’s land is it?? Is this a joke or what? It was always the border of Georgia until Russia tries to change that border. This is a no brainer!

It is not a fair accusation to say the Ossetians as wanting anything because all the Ossetians are not of Russia as your words try to portray them as being. And if Russia is afraid of NATO then it shows that Russia still is part of the mindset of the west its enemy and if the west is its enemy then it is because has portrayed us as being and is keeping us their enemy.. So the Cold War is still on. Not with Soviet Union but what is left of it.. Big bad Russia.. And no. there is no excuse acceptable to me of Russia’s aggression against a smaller country that is no match to Russia’s power, because I do not support Russia in this case in any manner or in any way. You can if you wish but I sure the hell do not the main reason being, Russia has fallen back towards the government controlled country it was years ago. Also their attitude with Putin has fallen back to cold war tactics and aggression. If this is what you support and stand for , hey that is your problem not mine.

Also democracy means a lot when you support that type of institution and that is the institution in Georgia politics. If you can not bring yourself to support that as well it is another problem of your own, not mine.

As a just cause for Georgia wanting to be a member of NATO??? Another joke??? To stop this crap Russia’s bullying and its attacks upon others..

Now should we go on speculating.. take a look at this report..

Georgia: Intercepted calls prove self-defense http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080916/ap_on_re_eu/eu_georgia_russia;_ylt=AhnanXqJKlIdANBWZz2i9P_uOrgF

If this is true any argument of Russia going in to protect its so called Russian citizens which are actually Georgian citizens now, is that of a farce because all Russia has done was invade a neighboring country and for what? Nothing but for the simple reason of trying to provoke a war with Georgia because the leader is western friendly and Russia hates that. If this is true, no one can say that Georgia started anything but the fact would be, Russia was and is the Aggressor!

Russia sounds and act just like the communist regime of China. Lies and deception. paint everyone the aggressor while the blame sits right on the shoulders of the portrayer in this case Russia. Even if this turns out to be false, Russia still had no right to invade Georgia or even have any troops stationed within Georgia's borders from the very beginning.

If it is the excuse issue, sure Russia will come up with an excuse being right or wrong. I find it wrong and there is no excuse for its actions when it comes to the borders of sovereignty of another country. Whether it is afraid of NATO or not, they wish for all of us to believe they are tough and no one is their threat or can damage them, but that is of course the face of the government and something of a nostalgic sentiment that bares no fruit or they would not be pushing all of this down everyone’s throat. They do not want NATO or the west breathing down their necks and all they can do is try and show force in stopping it. but at the same time they are infringing on another nations sovereignty and borders. I am not sure if you are now trying to support their excuses or just saying they have an excuse? Do you support their excuses? In earlier post I took it as you support the excuses Russia has put forth for going into Georgia where I have taken the position Russia should never have had a presents inside of Georgia from the start and especially driving even further into Georgia in the brief time of war. I stand for Russia to get the heck out of Georgia and the people of S. Osettia be governed by the rightful rulers of the land and that is the rulers of Georgia. If those in S, Ossetia do not like that, they can migrate back to Russia eventually and if Russia cares so much about these people they so claim to do, then give them aid in moving back to Russia if that is where they wish to be ruled by because those in these territories are not all from Russia or at that time they migrated there was of Soviet Union, but also original residents of Georgia, being minority or majority makes no difference what so ever in where the Georgia border is and always has been throughout history.. If any one has right to the land it is the original settlers and not to be desided by force of another country, in this case Russia.

Who are the original settlers of S. Ossetia?? The migrants or those of the original land.. That is the point of who should rule this land. I believe the aborigines trump. And yes I state democracy as a main issue in the discussion that the west, "based on democracy", should position itself on and stand by since that is what we have always positioned ourselves as actions we have taken over the years, decades etc.

That would be like saying south Florida, parts of Texas, New Mexico, Parts of California, would have the right to succeed from the union because over the years migrants have taken the majority of the population and demands to be independent and then a few decide that they have that right to do so, saying the country of Mexico, or Cuba and then try and dispatch their military power to make it happen. Of course that would be if Mexico or China had more military power than the US. but that is just a hypothetical situation, but what is happening in Georgia and the actions of Russia in Georgia.. This situation would not be tolerated and seen as being right and this falls right in line why it should never happen in Georgia

I sad Russia has no excuse for invading a sovereign country, period.

There is a difference with Georgia being a democracy and ruled by law and elections and decisions made by the people. There is no reason Russia should have taken a position in Georgia from the start, from the start I mean when Georgia became an independent state. The people that immigrated or moved to Georgia (S.Ossetia) could have very well settled in with the Georgian government and over time if not liking it there moved back to Russia. There was no reason for Russia to have any presence there from the very beginning, and the people of S. Ossetia live among the rest of the people there and become part of the country and society. It is a democratic country with rights for all and representation for all. Russia from the start has only upheld the situation of that part of the country and supported these people as being encouraged to defy what should have been from the start , Georgia a whole..

Hey Sez this is just the way I see it and what I think would have been right for everyone and Georgia keeping its dignity and right to securing its own borders. I am not saying you have to agree with me, but I just state my case in stressing my position. Sure Russia wants to show some dominance, but I sure do not agree with their dominance being aggression and trying to come in upon a sovereign country that its base is democratic based on the will of the people and that including those Russians that migrated there whether it being before or after the split from the Soviet Union, they are living in Georgia.

sez we are talking today not the past. Georgia wants control of its land and to impose its form of government that the people od S, Ossetia would be part of.

I do not say Russia has no excuse... I say they have no right imposing its force upon another country , which Georgia is.

It is funny not too long ago we forget the moves by Russia to incorporate into NATO.

It is a shame Russia has slipped back into its thinking in the way of Soviet era... You point that out yourself.

Ao we will have to deal with that and if that means pushing forward NATO membership for the rest, I geess that will have to be the case as with Ukraine.

EU tugs at Ukraine amid concerns about Russia http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080910/ap_on_re_eu/eu_russia_s_neighbors;_ylt=Aq1qVBaMeGMs.3G3b1HZyz50bBAF No one has to put up with a cold war minded Russia, but they will deal with them in all ways neccesary. It is like dealing with the Warsaw pack, but with out Warsaw. What a kick in the pants that is for Russia. All this is a slap in Russia's face as we are seeing.. A whipped pup wanting revenge and that is what Russia is doing and acting as such.. Pethetic of such a country of power. But.. as we see them acting as such we also see who has come into control of the country.. PUTIN the ex KGB man that has reversed many of the accomplishments that has went forward as for social freedoms since the colapse of the Soviet Union that seems to be comming back to the forfront because of Putin and his history of having authority and power under his belt, in the past and of the present and not wanting to let go of that. Now we are seeing the consequences.

Well I think you need an understanding of borders, sovereignty, and separatists. You also need to look at Chechnya and S.Ossetia in reference to what ever your stance seems to be as I see you do not like the term "big bad Russia"

As for Georgia this is a convergence on control of their own land from separatist, as for Kosovo we are talking about genocide and the conviction of a leader set out to commit genocide which is absolutely not an issue with Georgia and S,Ossetia.

I just read an article tonight about Chechnya and Russia needs to be very careful of its stance on these Georgian territories because of Russia’s hard stance on Chechnya

Georgia welcomes news of EU-Russia agreement

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2008/09/10/2003422817

“”““Sarkozy told Medvedev: ‘Beware of the principle of self-determination. If the Russians demand it for Abkhazia and Ossetia, the Chechens could also demand it,’” the source said.. “””

I guess I am not the only one to make the comparison. And link of something that falls within the same scenario.

Speaking of Serbia, maybe this is of interest to you..

Serbia ratifies EU, Russia deals

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080909/ap_on_re_eu/serbia_agreements;_ylt=AoYsyqyHg6F8lFQiYRIAiDp0bBAF

To end with these two regions of GEORGIA are inhabited by Georgians as well as So Called Russians with Russian passports that live in Georgia, and always being that of Georgia , the people that are the original citizens of that area of Georgia has no reason in any sense to have their country taken away from them by force from an outside country, naming RUSSIA,then given to those that are not original settlers of that land and because of some immigrants from Soviet Union (Russia) deciding they want to take root their in some point of time there after, that is completely a stance that is pure non-sense!

Inevitable… Australia along with US and other allies will have to keep in check China, since there is no predicting what the leaders have on their minds, if anything like the past….POWER!!! Now for Japan to come to the reality of the 21st century.. I hope Japan’s people will come out of their coma. One report says a rapid build up of 48 billion US dollars to be spent.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080910/wl_nm/australia_defence_dc;ylt=AhyPhXxTu.3op4P918cgzdvaA8F

When one builds the rest must follow, it is just a natural reaction and the keeping of a balance, something Russia just does not get into their heads. They have helped China build their military drastically and expect others to just look the other way.. I think not and the US and its allies including the new break away states of the Soviet Union is showing to be in the face proof of that. As a knee jerk reaction we see what Russia has done in response. Hahaha like a little kid throwing a tantrum.. China is a main culprit with Russia being the accomplice.

Any way Australia is making a very good move and Japan should follow hot on the heals and let China know they can not go all out with no one taking actions of their own.

Sez a country based on democracy, explains that the majority of the people of Georgia voted for their president that was elected. Not clear?

As in any democracy, because the minority of the country did not get their man in office does not give them the right to greak away an area. Same within any country. Maters not where these people are from or who they claim to be. If I live in a state that the majority does not want a republican president, my state should break away from the country???? The people of S.Ossetia are sepratists backed by Russia, and that is wrong. I am not completey sure of Georgia's system, but if they have voting for representatives of their area, then they have a voice in a democracy.

Where does democracy come into play in all this.. come on! This is just basic understanding about a democratic based society. Because one does not get their way and the majority won they wish to depart from the country with the territory.. no way!!!!! But then you have big bad Russia supporting such a move? Sorry, I will never agree with that. If anything thepeople should move out of there if they are so dishearted of being part of a country. Someone posted on another article about most of S.Ossetia's population being from Russia, the problem is they were part of the Soviet Union, not Russia, but besides that point there are still those that voted for the president elect and they to are georgian citizens being restricted of their rights within their own country. I guess you and I look at this in a completely different light.

well cavemnan.. Sure the people FROM Russia can leave Georgia. I have said that, but not leave Georgia with the land to follow as I guess you are suggesting. I say they should make the plans to get out of the country if that is what they want and if Russia is so worried about them , help get them out. You may be for countries splitting because of differences and if that is your stand then you should also be for the rebels in Chechnya as being able to separate from Russia as well along with taking their land with them.

If you believe in separatists and changing borders of countries then you would have no problem with that situation as well, Will Russia let that happen? hell no! But with your theory of righteousness for people having what they want, you definitely would take that position of the rebels of Chechnya to go their own way as well with the condolences of Russian leaders..

But to force the country of Georgia to change its borders by big bad Russia against a small defenseless nation, which is what Georgia is compared to the force of Russia, is just giving into aggression. These people live in Georgia, saying they are Russian or not, I would be certain all residents of these areas are not all Russian and if you say they are then show me the statistics stating such, People of S. Ossetia are all Russians... I doubt that very much. But you did say the majority so big deal. It is still Georgia territory and if my state has the majority that does not want screw ball Bush as president does that give my state the right to put him out of office or split from the Union? No it does not and should not, as a whole we are a country and guided by an elected leader. When taking the population as a whole of a country , the majority rules and that catagorizes those living in S.Ossetia as pure seperatists, those that say are Russian while others are fine to be of Georgia and voted for the elected president of today. Your argument is based on nonsense!

Your argument is just that, an argument and just another twist on taking land mass from the country of Georgia. I guess as myself you can justify your own perspective with what ever it is that makes your brain believe your view is right.. I find your view just another excuse for Russia's forceful power upon another. For what reason I sure the hell do not know. Maybe you are a Putin fan or something, I see him as an ex KGB that has bad peddled on Democracy and rights and from the beginning has infringed upon the rights of the country of Georgia. I am sure there are Russian living throughout all of the Baltic regions and I guess you would back Russia moving in to claim all the areas these Russian have decided to live. This falls right into your post, so I guess it is a never ending adventure for Russia. Seems the eye on Ukraine may give us the answer.

Sez.. The correlation is Russia arming rebels in Georgia as would be the same as outside sources arming the rebels in Chechnya against Russia.

This is the same as what Russia would be doing with S. Ossetia. Arming rebels that are against Georgia and being part “of “ Gerogia. Sympathy for Russia?????? Come on. That almost makes me laugh. You are exactly right.. I do have not an once of sympathy for Russia. I find them interferring in Georgia's affairs and not acceptable by any means, and that Russia should have never been in georgia to begin with forcing anything in that country. Goergia has every right to claim all its region and control it where there are Russians , georgians, or any people from anywhere in the world living there. If they are from Russian decent , living in Georgia makes them Gerogians by all means. If someone moves to your country then they are part of your country and live as a citizen of your country.. same with Georgia whether being there before the split or not! These people are in Georgia and if they do not like it, they should get the hell out no ands ifs or buts. No changing any borders or outside forces controling interior areas of Georgia. I find your stand completely a rebel supporting base and support for foriegn occupation of a democratic nation that is based on democratic principles. Nope I feel no sympathy for Russia in the least. Want to read an interesting article?

Dealing with the Russians from a position of weakness is futile By…Joschka Fischer was German foreign minister and vice chancellor from 1998 to 2005 and led Germany’s Green Party for nearly 20 years

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2008/09/07/2003422512

Sorry Sez it was dammit with those quotes, just that the two of you where sounding so much alike it was hard to keep the statements separated. But I am seeing your view a little less pro Russia than Dammit's.

But the remark about Georgia being a democracy and has nothing to do with Russia giving military aid to S. Ossetia is still the assumption that S. Ossetia is not part of Georgia and that supporting those in S. Ossetia is the same as supporting separatists and to break Georgia borders up. Supporting separatists on Goergia in not right just as Chechnya that Russia has been attacking as being separatists in the country of Russia, It would be saying that the chetnians also should have military ais because they do not want to be part of Russia. So where is it right to support one and not the other when we are talking regions with in ones country.

Beside ADAY.. all should be waving their fist at Russia because what they have done is support separatists of Georgia.

That is wrong. Georgia is not Russia so Russia should have nothing to do with Georgia's peoples decisions. You still try and forget this main item. Georgia is not Russia and Georgia is a country with borders that Russia is ignoring!!!! Everyone tries to stress diplomacy but not here when it comes to Russia. Georgia started nothing. Russia has been asserting itself in Georgia from the start.. You still try and over look the basis facts on this issue. Georgia is not part of Russia and Russia has no business controlling or trying to un-seat the Gregorian president or fight against the Georgian elected government. But again I hear the same old same old.. I think it is time to face the facts…I guess we will all see how it plays out because no matter what any of us says , WE are not going to change anything. But it does make one wonder why Russia does not want to help stop Iran from going nuclear along with there other military friend they have been building, China…

Aday. then let us hope Obama wil tell Russia we have no need for them and to kiss our ass and arm our friends with the weapons they need to give Russian forces the cassualties they deserve. Hope you are not standing there with the Russian forces.

You know perfectly well that all this "ally" garbage is just because of your pipeline and because Bush wants his nukes stationed in Georgia

Just that single statement says it all of your thoughts Sez..

so no reason to take any of your posts serious if you trying to change the meaning of. Your words are well documented unless you can get the moderators to delete them for you. But your stance on Georgia is all in the above post your wrote and the meaning of them is very clear to me and anyone that reads them. so do not back peddle on what is already documented Sez.

Russian military forces and peacekeepers have been in Georgia since the separation, please remember that when some news bulletins make it appear that the Russian forces only entered the country in August. They were there for years, and their withdrawal is unlikely to be very snappy

yes Sez and thay have had no right to be there. So again yousupport of Russia in Georgia where they should not be now or anytime.

.

You may come out and say you do not mean this or that, but your post suggest different. You read them!

I have and stand behind what I get out of them. US this US that and why Russia has done this in response to that.. come on get off the BS. Your post spell out exactly what your thought have been, if not we would not be argueing over these same points being touched on here.

Then why blame the US for what Russia has done? Or why make excuses for what Russia has done? There are no excuses for what Russia has done across its borders

well any one that supports suppression of their own people will definitely not see any thing wrong with suppression of others or domination over another.

But how long will large nations put up with being forced into a corner with out reacting. Once this happens the world will be facing great danger. Russia with the Baltic region is just a start. Russia and China would love to control all resources in that region, and if this is done at the expense of small independent democratic nations, both will be leading up to a larger confrontation that will destroy world security which will not be good for anyone and China and Russia either one will be out in the cold and isolated again from the world..

Reddragonguy you forget, the world got along well with out either one of these countries throughout history. No one especially major democracies are going to let China or Russia push them around with out retaliation.

SezWho, if US and NATO wants to stop this, then we will see these break away provinces start being armed to wear any move by Russia will result in consequences to an invasion with real casualties if they invade other areas or other countries. Arms race, I think not, but negotiations between the countries and Russia at the same time building their defenses and offensive capabilities. As we have seen by elections, none of these countries want Russia over Europe or US. If this is what they want , they should have it and no one including Russia should stop them. Russia wants to blame this on the west and bring NATO closer to their borders, but at the same time over the years has continually built the Chinese military with advanced weapon systems but I do not see any thing said of such in any post when it comes to Russia and the US response to other situations that have to be considered when speaking global issues and security but am sure all is being concidered in response to these conditions, and when speaking global that includes everything and the US must consider everything, again not all is black and white such as this with Georgia or missile defense and placing interceptor rockets. This thing with Georgia is just a small piece of a very , very large puzzle. I am just waiting for a fall out between Russia and China to come about, and it will eventually as with any two countries over time. It is inevitable.

Your words suggest that Russia should rule and have the right to do so. My remarks are that Russia has no right and Russia has fallen back to pre Russia mentality and are taking the course and mindset of the SOVIET UNION days of rule.

I am saying I am against that as your words say it is ok. If for standing for free nations then as you suggest, there is no move to sit and watch freedom be destroyed by an aggressor. If isolating Russia is the only choice then that must be and be sure to take all steps so the isolation will be effective, but on the other hand, effectiveness would be difficult when there is China that with the need of energy as well could support Russia in any event , economically, so the ripple effects would also have to be considered, Besides I see all this associated with the rise of China and the world support of China's economy and this is where it lead to with these countries that hold the world energy supplies of oil and their rise to power. What a situation the west has caused with the catering to large corporate interests.

I am certain these remarks will not go over well, but all is connected and all of these issues has brought about the power of those that should never have been given the power to rise and begin what we are witnessing now. If you notice, just about all my references come back to one thing. China.. The continual support the west have gave to China has only caused us more and more problems and has given the radical power hungry leaders around the world more and more power and leverage that the west is finding impossible to deal with.

All is not black and white when it comes to promotion of a global community and all this has added fuel to the fire we are witnessing now. China and Tibet, no one can do anything or put pressure to correct what China has and is doing with the Tibetans, Same3 with Russia and its rise again in power because of the demand for energy, main cause, China’s heated economy, and why is that? Corporate interest from the greed of politicians in the west and some sort of sought leverage of interaction with China back at Nixon’s time to have an edge in the cold war with Soviet Union. Many events has lead us to what the problems we face today, but the main issue that has brought all this about was the support and building of China and that lies right here in our hands. Like my opinion or not, I see China as the main source of all of this and the continual support of their economy by western companies that are allowed to produce in that country and able to ship their produces back here and to all western nations while we are seeing such an imbalance of trade and seeing china with double digit growth rates and ours at 1.9%, which seems to be the latest numbers. It is a circle, connected with demand and sky rocketing energy prices that has brought these nations into the fold of holding power over small ones and even over the western powers that is loosing the grip they once had in stopping such aggression from the radical leaders and power hungry countries. Another issue Sez, is I would rather see the US and its allies have the hand in power than ever the Russians or China or Saudi’s, and even the crap we are getting out of Venezuela and Chaves. All related to the power and influence of the high demand for energy and the rise of China we can blame ourselves for that has brought about this demand and high energy prices.

You can also go back and express history and prosperity, but that was then and we eventually seen what happened to the Soviet Union, today is of a different time and economically you can not say what the future for Georgia will be when trying to say the past will be the present, Nothing stays the same and everything changes, Yes, you and I do look at this issue with completely different views, I look into the future as developments to take place, not into the past that has already faded into history and has no barring on the present times and changes that are taking place around the world, when hopefully, people are gaining their independence and unchained from those forcing upon them power, which Russia is doing right now as a repeat of the past. You may try and make excuses and back that type of mentality and type of forceful rule over others but I sure the hell do not and never will. Although not a supporter of Bush and his policies, I am happy Iraq will be a country of the people and just hope the world will stand against Russia’s aggression against Georgia and stop them from deciding what Georgia should be and the people of Georgia to continue to develop their own future without Russia’s bold imposition upon them.

Dannit, You are funny, Georgia wants friendly ties with US, no one is making them, where do you come up with such spin? US and pipe lines so what, sure US wants good relations, but so does Georgia.. and it is their choice like it or not

Georgia is just wanting to define its natural baorders and has every right to do so, None of Russia;s bussiness at all

Russia is a PIG This crap of Russia is unbelievable. I believe they are wanting to push everything to the brink of someone ready to push the button, They are fools!!!!!!!!!!

The new president of Russia is nothing but a communist minded piece of crap!!!!!!!

Vocal critic of Kremlin shot dead in police custody http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2008/09/02/2003422066

Russia warns against backing Georgia http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2008/09/02/2003422065