WhiteHawk comments

Posted in: Ariz investigators say there were warning signs on day of shooting See in context

jason6:

I wonder when they're going to start classifying the Tea Party as a domestic terrorist organization.

Napalitano has already tried to do that, along with U.S. soldiers returning from the Middle East.

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Posted in: Ariz shooting suspect appears in court; Giffords responds to verbal commands See in context

Anyway, a man, a right-wing kook, was arrested for phoning death threats to Senator Bennett and his staff. He was arrested the day BEFORE Giffords was shot.

I read several articles after doing a search, and found nothing to indicate that Davis is "right-wing", other than Bennett is a Democrat. All I saw on Davis was that he described himself as a schizophrenic, and that he complained about his social security benefits. As with Loughner, I think you're too eager to consider him as "right-wing" with so little to go on, and I think it would be interesting to find out why you do that.

But I'm glad you brought it up, because it highlights the difference in how authorities in Colorado handled Davis, and how Sheriff Dupnik handled Loughner. Reportedly, Dupnik has been talking victims of Loughner's threats out of filing charges, telling them he was getting mental health attention when he was not. Had Dupnik done his job as proscribed by Arizona law, Loughner would not have been able to legally buy a gun, and might have even been in jail or a mental institution where he couldn't shoot anyone.

But this is where it gets weird.

For your benefit (and the benefit of the moderators), I want you to know know that what I'm about to write, I write with no malice in my heart, and no intention of ridicule at your expense:

I sincerely think you're searching for answers that aren't there as a means of coping with this atrocity. This is a horrible event, and it's difficult to keep ourselves from visualizing it in our mind's eye. The tragic and senseless loss of life, which could have been prevented, hits anyone with a conscience very hard. For me, the worst part is the death of that innocent 9-year-old girl. It makes me angry and sick, and brings me to tears just thinking about it.

The way you're reacting to this is nothing new. It's just how some people cope. We (as a society) have seen this after the deaths of JFK, RFK, MLK Jr., Lady Diana, as well as the Oklahoma City bombing, the 9/11 attacks, and many other tragic events. Some people try in vain to find sense in the senseless, and conspiracy theories (and Oliver Stone movies) care born. As a temporary means of coping, nobody can fault you for it. But please do take a step back from it after a while, okay? Hopefully a little time and some distance from this will help you find whatever it is you need to cope with this horrible and senseless atrocity.

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Posted in: Ariz shooting suspect appears in court; Giffords responds to verbal commands See in context

Klein2:

I read a lot. So what?

I read a lot too. But there's huge a difference between reading or watching something and calling it one of your favorites. Loughner has called The Communist Manifesto, Mein Kampf, and Loose Change some of his favorite works. Tea Party folks just don't do that.

Loughtner was really big on finding "the real meanings of words." Did you miss that hint?

He had issues with grammar. I didn't miss that hint. Perhaps we should pass some "grammar control" legislation? It's not like the Generation Text crowd is using it anyway. (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)

I really want to hear what he has to say.

I doubt it will make much sense to the sane.

I want to know what is on his computer and where he got his ideas.

I suspect we'll know that in time.

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Posted in: Ariz shooting suspect appears in court; Giffords responds to verbal commands See in context

Moderator: We have already asked you once to stop posting these long, rambling answers to multiple posters. You must also tone down your rhetoric because in some cases, you are being impolite to other posters. Consider this your final warning.

My apologies Moderator, I did not see the previous warning. Probably because I was on this page instead of the other one.

I apologize for the long posts. I will break them up in the future.

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Posted in: Ariz shooting suspect appears in court; Giffords responds to verbal commands See in context

Molenir:

He's one guy, and sure a nut, but to say Dupnik wasn't doing his job, and that he knew this guy was a loon and failed because he didn't prematurely lock him up, is simply nonsense.

People who are determined to be a threat to themselves and/or others can be institutionalized against their will. A county Sheriff can certainly get the wheels in motion. Instead, it's coming out that Dupnik had been convincing those targeted by Loughner not to file complaints or press charges. Had they done so, Loughner would have had at least a restraining order against him, and would not have been able to legally buy a gun.

Taka313:

Stay classy and incorrect tea party.

I suppose you thought it was classy when John Edwards used his wife's cancer as a fund-raising tool. While fathering a baby with his mistress.

I agree that it's not the best way to seek donations, but this part...

“It is quite clear that liberals are trying to exploit this shooting for their own political benefit, and they used deception and dishonesty to try and smear all of us and our beliefs. You know what the truth is? The truth is that the shooter, Jared Loughner is the one responsible for this atrocity. But liberals are trying to place the blame on society for embracing the tea party movement.”

...is quite true. I'm surprised you posted it. So what are you going to say when Democrat PACs start using Loughner as a fund-raising tool? Because they will.

Klein2:

But his actions show he was more affected by this, from Giffords' Tea Party Opponent, Jesse Kelly.

Really? Exactly how did his actions show that Loughner - who lists The Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf as two his favorite books, Loose Change as one his favorite movies, and whose friends say he was "hard-left" - was affected by a campaign ad he likely didn't read? After all, if he saw the ad, why didn't he attend the event?

Seriously, your desperate cherry-picking is blatant and sad.

If you are Tea Party and you want to remove a Jewish woman from office, you have options OTHER than voting and fund-raisers, is that right?

That event WAS a fundraiser.

Palin pulled that list quickly, BUT denied that it had any effect on anyone who might have viewed it. Then why pull it?

Why did Moulitsas pull his bullseye ad that had Giffords on it too?

I will say again that I don't think Palin is responsible, she is irresponsible.

It's quite telling that you think she's the only one irresponsible.

Until we know much more about his motives, I will believe that he is a skinhead who wanted to kill liberal Jewish people.

Well, Loughner apparently believed what he wanted, so you believe what you want. The difference is... well there is no difference. You've already demonstrated that you will continue believing what you despite the lack of evidence to support and despite the evidence contradicting your beliefs.

And what's with your obsession with Jewish people? I haven't seen anywhere in the news that Giffords is Jewish, so how did you know that?

I have never seen a tract or publication of the JBS advocating violence, but I HAVE seen ones that recommend the overthrow of the US government and monetary system. I have seen similar rhetoric from Tea Party members. Even those posting here.

Through voting. And voting not diluted with SEIU election corruption, please. I've also seen calls for overthrowing the government - with violence, including the death of the president and vice-president. Those were at Leftist "peace" rallies in San Francisco, however.

James Fallows pointed me to a site run by the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence ...that is a timeline of threats and actions made by ultra-right wing groups.

Did he also compile a time-line of threat and actions made by ultra-left-wing groups? Violent actions not involving guns? Oh, that's right: According to the CtSGV, there is no violence without guns.

Coalition to Stop Gun Violence... yeah, no agenda there. No wonder you're refusing to consider that Loughner isn't a right-wing Tea Party-type.

If the right is not involved in this, why does it not denounce or "refudiate" ALL violence that is politically motivated instead of threatening "second amendment remedies" if it does not win elections?

Provide specific examples of "the right" threatening "second amendment remedies". And just when is the Left going to denounce ALL the violence that they have perpetrated?

And why make such a quick assumption that this shooter "could not possibly be linked to right wing causes" instead of doing some soul-searching and admitting that the Tea Party have acted like thugs on plenty of occasions?

Provide specific examples of the Tea Party acting like thugs. And in this case, it's better to do fact-checking than soul-searching.

Out of all the Tea Party rallies, the only incidence of violence has been a group of pro-Obama SEIU thugs beating up Kenneth Gladney. At a party for Bobby Jindal, a young couple wearing Palin buttons were attacked and savagely beaten (the young woman's leg was broken in five places) by Leftist demonstrators.

To me, it all adds up. This is the Reichstag fire. The immediate attempt to blame this on the left by the loudspeakers of the right shows exactly what it is. The right will avoid culpability, but let the intimidation against Democrats stand. Gun control efforts will fail, and gun intimidation will continue. Loughner is only the latest hammer to come out of the far-right's toolbox. Expect it to get worse.

Congratulations, you now sound like Loughner.

Loughner has been obsessed with Giffords since at least 2007. You know what we didn't have in 2007? The Tea Party. You know what else? Nobody outside of Alaska knew who Sarah Palin was in 2007, which would in all likelihood include Loughner.

And now you're obsessed with Palin and the Tea Party. And Jewish people, for some odd reason. Would your neighbors describe you as a "troubled loner", by any chance?

manfromamerica:

And any Democrat during the Bush administration. And any socialist movement. And any anti-war protest. And anti-globalization radicals. And left-wing protesters on JT. And Saturday Night Live skits. And MSNBC commentary.

And G20 rioters.

SuperLib:

The guy should be locked up and subjected to psychological experiments for the rest of his life to help us figure out what went wrong in his mind, then hopefully that data can be used to give us warning signs about others in the future.

I think we already have the answers. It's just that people are afraid of looking like "big meanies" for locking someone away.

Moderator: We have already asked you once to stop posting these long, rambling answers to multiple posters. You must also tone down your rhetoric because in some cases, you are being impolite to other posters. Consider this your final warning.

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

Taka313:

And michelle malkin is quite the instrument of hate herself. Creepy if you ask me.

Why, because you hate her? Or because she points out the immoral, unethical and/or criminal behavior of Leftist politicians? because she points out the hateful rhetoric and violence promoted and practised on the Left? I knew at least one of the regular JT Leftists would attack the source (oh, there's that rhetoric again) when I posted a Malkin link. Thanks for being predictable. I'll bet you didn't even follow the link to see the very, very, VERY long article. You probably just saw her name and thought to yourself: "Malkin? I hate that *** ****!" Speaking of hating Malkin, have you ever read her hate mail? Not only are Leftists hateful, threatening, racist bigots, they're also disgusting.

chotto:

Why stop at owning guns? Why not let everyone own grenades, nuclear warheads and fighter jets so they can 'defend' themselves? Not a bad idea eh? Then if one nutjob decides to nuke somewhere, the rest of you can go "oh, he was an exception".

Oh look, you found a strawman to play with! Have fun!

Madverts:

I wrote just after the first reports of this tragedy that hopefully this could be a catalyst to end the frightening tried of ridiculous US politics only it seems to have polarized people even more.

That probably could have been averted had Leftists not run to microphones within minutes - literally - of the shooting to blame Sarah Palin and the Tea Party. Within 20 minutes, news networks were referring to Sarah Palin's "target" ad. Not the DNC's or DailyKos' from the same election, only Palin's. Obsessive myopia anyone? Kos tweeted "Mission Accomplished, Sarah Palin". Markos Moulitas, the same creep who had his own "target" ad for Gifford's office. DailyKos, that same bastion of credibility where the Palin-birther conspiracy theory originated. Boehlert, Sullivan, several other Leftist tweeters and bloggers jumped on the groupthink gravy train as well. Within an hour, AZ Sen. Linda Lopez (D) went on Fox to blame the Tea Party and start the rumor that the shooter was an Afghan veteran. Hoping for the next McVeigh? (Except that McVeigh wasn't a right-winger either.)

Molenir:

If I decide to do everything I can to bring down my congressman, and have a picture of him, in target sights, am I inciting violence, or making it obvious that my goal is to see him defeated?

Speaking hypothetically? Because putting a generic sight symbol (as seen in gunsights, survey equipment, design software,etc.) on a map for a district is one thing, but putting a person's picture in the target of a gunsight is an implied threat. The former is what happened, but the Leftists are trying to make it sound like it was the latter.

taiko666:

Speaking as (as I've mentioned before) a bemused Brit with no axe to grind, I'd like to know how the shooting of centre-left politician by a radical left gunman has anything to do with the Tea Party.

Because the Left wants it to. Desperately.

I vehemently disgree with the American right on a number of issues, most noteably gun control and health care. But I could never nail my colours to the mast of the Americal 'Liberals', since they seem to think that brazen lies, underhand smears, loutish behaviour and grievous insults are a good substitute for informed debate.

I raise a pint of ale in salute to you, sir.

Taka313:

If you don't think michelle malkin isn't guitly of extremely radical rhetoric, you're blind.

Examples, please? And do be specific. Try to do a better job than runwithscissors.

She's a vitriol-fueled troll, that one.

As opposed to the JT Leftists who hate her so vehemently?

TheRat:

Fox news, or RadioRwanda as I call it, has been calling for violence against liberals for a long time.

Calling for violence? Telling people to go out and shoot up churches and whatnot? Really?

There have been a LOT of right wingers who have urged their constituents to use their second amendment rights to get the backward change that they want.

Examples, please? And do be specific. Try to do a better job than runwithscissors.

People have urged these right-wingers who stir up hate and violence OFF the air because they are toxic, and should bear some responsibility for their hate.

Did you ever hear Randi Rhoads' show on Air America? Well, not many people did, frankly. Still, she used a gunshot sound effect when talking about shooting then-president Bush. Alec Baldwin went on late-night TV and said people should raid the house of a Henry Hyde and kill him and his family. Sen. John Kerry suggested on Bill Maher's show that he should "have gone to 1600 Pennsylvania and killed the real bird with one stone.”

But keep posting generalities about "right-wingers who stir up hate and violence", and I'll keep posting specific examples of Leftists doing exactly that.

Waiting for the news that this guy followed Glenn Beck.

Well you just keep waiting.

This might bring about some nice change if this is attributed to him!

That's just sick.

Junnama:

Why not respond with a degree of seriousness and responsibility. Sarah Palin is an influential person. Influence=responsibility. This lack of seriousness in her response either says she's just not responsible with her influence or she favors the results.

You seem to be ignoring the evidence that Sarah Palin didn't influence the nutcase/stoner shooter.

USARonin:

From what I've been given so far, he was nutz well before anyone here outside of Alaska even heard of 'Sarah Palin'.

Precisely. His obsession with Giffords predates anybody outside of Alaska hearing of Palin, predates the formation of the Tea Party, etc.

Because he made no direct threats against any invidual(s) that I'm aware of as of this moment, he wasn't adjudged and remanded for a psyche eval. I don't see this boyo bein' convicted of any crimes... again with the little I know now.

It's being reported now that he did make direct threats against a number of people in the area in recent years. School officials from his college, local politicians, etc. It turns out that Sheriff Dupnik (the same Democrat sheriff who refused to enforce Arizona's illegal immigration laws and who has been blaming "right-wing rhetoric" for the shooter's actions even though he admits he has no evidence to support that claim) had been convincing those targeted by Loughner not to file complaints. Interestingly, Loughner's mother works for the county too. Had Loughner been under a restraining order or charged with any crime of violence or threatening violence, he would not have been able to buy a gun legally. It just may turn out that the sheriff who is making political hay out of this could have prevented the whole thing by doing his job.

Junnama:

As an aside: another lone nut, huh? It's always lone nuts who do these killings (except Leo Ryan, I guess). Why are politicians always killed by lone nuts? Even going back to Garfield or McKinley..,

Yeah, no kidding. I suspect it's kind of difficult to be friends with a nutcase. Perhaps if we paid proper attention to loner nutcases...

Alphaape:

One question and it concerns the media. Why is it after the Ft Hood incident with Maj. Hassan, they wanted us to all be careful and not blame one particular religion and people and let's not be quick to rush judgement.

No the same media, will be quick to place this guy as a far right loon, and we don't hear any calls for let's not rush to judgement and be careful and analyze the person before we paint a picture of him.

Double standards I say.

You noticed that too, eh? Within hours, it was already known that he was shouting "Allah Akbar" while shooting our soldiers. Perhaps it reveals just who the Left is afraid of (Islamophobia, anyone?), and who they really consider their enemy.

Junnama:

Does anyone believe a frequent gun user doesn't think those look like gunsights?

I'm a frequent gun user and I thought they looked like AutoCAD symbols. But hey, that's just me. None of my handguns have scopes.

ikkochan:

Perhaps time for Arizona's gun laws to change. How about making concealed weapons illegal?

If that worked, Chicago and D.C. would be the safest cities in America. Instead, they are two of the most dangerous. And not by coincidence.

This may have been prevented if Arizona didn't have some of the most lax gun laws in the USA.

I suspect this has a lot more to do with a dangerous nutcase not being institutionalized like he should have been years ago.

Even Tokugawa limited swords in Shogunate Japan.

Wasn't that to prevent a coup against his rule?

Taka313:

Well, perhaps this guy WASN'T a tea partier. That isn't stopping the tea party from trying to cash in on him. YES, THE TEA PARTY IS USING THIS GUY AS A FUND RAISING TOOL!

How?

Except for this one staring us in the face, all the violence (and voices in my head) are coming from the left.

Still waiting for your proof that this happened because of anything the right has done.

No specifics mind you like I provided. Nope, we just have to take your word and michelle malkin's word for it.

Ah, so you didn't go to Malkin's site and see the incredibly long list of specific events (with videos, no less!). I figured as much.

Junnama:

I'm not talking about these people. Activists are activists and biased speech is expected from them. Palin is an influential national figure. Don't you understand the difference?

Obama is also an influential national figure, wouldn't you agree? Oh and look, he's the president! Maybe he should take the lead on this. And perhaps even lead by example, considering the heated and violent rhetoric he has used in recent years. (See my 05:21 PM post for the list.)

Moderator: Please tone down your rhetoric. And it is not necessary for you to reply to multiple posters, sentence by sentence. It makes your post too long.

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

For runwithscissors, who continues to incorrectly believe that right-of-center people are more prone to violence than left-of-center people, Michelle Malkin has a quite long list of evidence of the violent history of the modern American Left on her blog. It's quite a list, especially considering it only covers the past ten years. Just imagine if she had kept listing back to the 60's?

michellemalkin /2011/01/10/the-progressive-climate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

So we can put an end to this trivial point and agree they are gunsights?

I'll agree that you consider everything that remotely resembles a gunsight to be a gunsight even if proven otherwise. You've never looked through a gunsight before, have you?

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Posted in: Man due in court over Tucson shooting rampage See in context

Laguna:

It's been almost 20 years to the date since John Hinckley's attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan, and if that failed as an impetus for gun reform, this tragic event will also vanish like a pebble tossed into the ocean.

Almost 30 years. Never heard of the "Brady Bill"? Or when you said "reform", did you mean "ban"?

SolidariTea:

The only ppl here I see mentioning Fox are not Americans.Why are u guys so fascinated by Fox?

Because Fox reports news that rattles their precious little, narrow worldviews.

runwithscissors:

Now is everyone's chance to endorse donkusai's post. I do. How about you?

Considering your first posts on the previous thread...

nandakandamanda:

Here's hoping for her sake and her husband's sake and the sake of the whole nation that she makes a full recovery.

Yes indeed.

GJDailleult:

Also not fascinated by it, just don't think it is a news channel, and that it exists to serve other purposes.

You mean like trying to affect a presidential election with bogus claims and falsified military records? Oh wait, that was CBS...

lostrune2:

And there's no longer any balanced news.

I doubt there has ever been any balanced news.

McC72:

Sarah, give us the next list.

Hey Sarah, you need to account for the collateral damage in the case of the 9 year old girl.

You should read threads before commenting on them. You were debunked before you even sat down to type.

Klein2, that was excellent post... right up until the last sentence. Although, since everyone on the Left is convinced that she is that powerful and influential over all Americans, left, right, and in between, then maybe she should lead the charge. Glad to know that you think she is a capable leader, and the kind of leader America needs now.

Junnama:

Of course you can always check "urban dictionary" and find out what the phrase "dead to me" actually means...

Just as you can look up surveyor's symbols. Funny how you want the public's perception to be the defining factor over symbols, but not definitions.

Madverts:

One thing that does puzzle me is that eye-witnesses claim the Glock jammed....I always thought it was the one hanbdgun that is considered pretty much infallible?

I never thought the Glock lived up to its hype. I arrived at a gun range one day just as an ambulance was pulling out. Someone was trying ammo they loaded themselves and their Glock basically exploded in their hands. Just one of the reasons I use factory ammo. And Sigs.

Klein2:

Sarah Palin: "Don't retreat. Reload."

That is her statement and the mentality of her ilk.

“They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun” “Get in Their Faces!” “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!” “Hit Back Twice As Hard” “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.“ Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat” “It’s time to Fight for it.” “Punish your enemies.” “I’m itching for a fight.”

Barack Hussein Obama.

Go ahead and criticize and obfuscate. Pile it on, people. When it comes out that he is an anti-semite, xenophobe, tea-party affiliated, etc., you will just have to feel that much more guilty about it.

And now that it's coming out that he liked reading The Communist Manifesto and that his friends say he is left-wing, are you going to feel guilty about it?

By the way, he couldn't be anti-Semite and Tea Party affiliated. Not only does the American right-wing support Israel better than the Left, but anti-Semetic flyers are found at left-wing rallies and protests. Or did you not know that either?

Why does she show national politicians as targets?

She doesn't. She shows their districts as targets.

How quickly she runs from any responsibility.

Yeah, as opposed to the DNC and Moulitsas, who are owning up to and apologizing for their bullseye target maps. Oh wait, they're not. Maybe because America Leftists in the media and on forums aren't holding their feet to the fire with the same fervor that they're going after Sarah Palin. Oh no, never mind that Democrats and left-wing activists have been using the same symbolism for years before Palin ever hit the national stage, must ignore that and make Palin carry all the guilt.

Make no mistake. My point is not to say that Sarah Palin is responsible at all. ... No. My point is different. I think she is showing that she was and is very... irresponsible.

No, your point is that she's the only one irresponsible. Enough with the stupid pathological myopia already.

and, oh brother, I have heard this kind of thing before:

"Loughner claimed the college was illegal according to the U.S. Constitution."

You might want to put that in context. According to everything I've seen so far, Lougher referred to the constitution we recognize as the "second constitution". In all likelihood, your quote above was referring to the Articles of Constitution, which Loughner viewed as the 'real" constitution.

Right wing anti-semitic xenophobic group cannot plausibly deny a connection to him, but denies it anyway.

Again, the Tea Party is neither anti-Semitic nor xenophobic. Stop projecting your ignorance and bigotry.

He is even getting Tim McVeigh's lawyer!

McVeigh wasn't a right-winger either. He was an anarchist who would have targeted Bush 41 as well.

This Arizona guy was a typical right wing dork who shot at her, the judge, and others to make a political statement.

Considering you don't know what a "typical right-wing" anything is...

My psychic powers? Psychic powers like these help me tie my shoes, buddy. Gyaku ni, a person would have to do some serious contortion to make a claim that this guy had the political motivations of John Hinckley.

Impressing Jodie Foster is a political motivation?

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

runwithscissors:

Me! Against free speech! What an absolute joke!

Er...

runwithscissors at 03:11 PM JST - 9th January

Smack him for shouting "LEFTY", not me for trying to shut him down.

skipthesong:

And regardless if he's left or right, he's going go in one direction - death!

True, but first he has to be found mentally competent to stand trial, and then found guilty when he'll likely use an insanity defense.

Junnama:

Sailwind is not correct and it is comical to listen to. Can you even find that surveyors symbol anywhere? Is there a surveyor in the Palin inner circle? How many surveyors are the even in the country? Maybe 25,000 at most. Even if this is a surveyors symbol would someone expect anyone but a surveyor to know what it is?

Still trying to win a point, no matter how trivial, eh? I grant you that most people won't know a surveyor's symbol when they see one. But they certainly know a bullseye when they see one. Like the bullseyes used on multiple DNC campaign maps, DailyKos' pro-Democrat, anti-Republican campaign map, etc.

CraigHicks:

I saw Palin's web page with the crosshairs targetting Gifford.

You mean "targeting Gifford's district", right? The one I saw didn't have a picture of Giffords herself (or anyone else) in the crosshairs.

And it still doesn't make a connection to this shooter.

PeaceWarrior"

Now, the shooter was about a meter away from Giffords and she survived but six other people didn't? Including a judge? Was she really the target? Because from where I stand, there is little chance for someone who can kill six people and hurt so many more to not finish the deed. If she was indeed the main target, he would probably have shot her multiple times.

Since his first shot resulted in a head wound, he probably considered her done. Most people don't survive head wounds.

Speaking of which, I wonder how the other wounded are doing. I haven't seen anything in the news about the conditions of the others, so does that mean that Giffrods is the only one in critical?

Lunatics and fanatics abound in this world. They always find a way to torture us. So long as there are people there will be incidents like this. Accept it and move on with life.

Indeed. Some people like to fool themselves into thinking that everything is preventable. But humans are complicated and can be quite random. The only genuine solution is to prepare yourself as best you can for life's randomness. But that's personal responsibility, which (again) some people are averse to.

Molenir:

Did you see the Daily Kos Webpage targetting Giffords as a bad apple Dem? Care to comment on that? Have the Dems learned their lesson as well?

Was that a rhetorical question? ;)

chotto:

That nutjob was armed with a gun, too?

No, just a strap that he put around my neck (he snuck up from behind me).

A nice, neutral website you've pointed out there. Well done.

Ah yes, complain about the source. There are no "neutral" sources. Everybody reports with the same view they see the world through. Doesn't matter if it's the AP, CNN, NPR, Fox, etc. It's just human nature. Which goes back to my previous "long diatribe" about media bias. The proof of guns having good uses doesn't fit the left-wing media's template, so it doesn't get reported. But that doesn't change the fact that guns are proven to be effective self-defense tools. Fortunately, we still have multiple news sources in the U.S.

Talking about clutching at straws.

You mean like trying to connect a Palin ad with a Leftist shooter?

Quick, I hear the King of England coming to your house. Blow someone's head off in self-defense. Yee hah.

Have you been into Loughner's pot stash?

Madverts:

Heh, maybe "Sarah" can see a surveryor's office from her house, neh sail!

Oh lookie, you can paraphrase Tina Fey!

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

runwithscissors:

He represents neither side, but I say again (and he may be an exception) that violent haters tend to gravitate toward conservativism and conservatives need to clean house on that score. I suggest starting with Rush Limbaugh, Beck and Ann Coulter.

What do any of them have to do with violent rhetoric? Limbaugh?!? Oh I see, you're just projecting your hatred. You hate them, so they must promote hate. Riiiiiight.

Does the left have anyone to match their hype and anger?

“They Bring a Knife…We Bring a Gun”

“Get in Their Faces!”

“I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!”

“Hit Back Twice As Hard”

Republican victory would mean “hand to hand combat”

“It’s time to fight for it.”

“Punish your enemies.”

“I’m itching for a fight.”

...and that's just Barack Obama.

Anger is like a disease, and conservatives got it the worst.

Project much?

They preach hate. Hate leads to killing. They use violent imagery and violent rhetoric. They do not encourage people to think or debate. They encourage anger and mindless cheering. And they attract violent people for what they say and how they say it.

Evidence? Or am I going to have to just take your word for it?

Nuts cannot do that. Even just the low of IQ have extreme difficulty.

Which probably explains your hatred of him, and others in his line of work. ;)

But I have heard enough about them to know what is true.

HAHAHAHAHA!!! "I've heard my fellow Leftists rant about them so that's just as good as listening to them." I repeat: HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Now, I know that lefties do the same thing on Phil Donahue but the reasons are very very different.

Phil Donahue? They must be easily rallied then. Phil makes me sleepy.

But why is it the bad ideas of the left tend to lead to loss of money and the bad ideas of the right to lead to loss of life?

You must be too young to remember Truman's war in Korea, and Kennedy's (and later Johnson's) war in Vietnam.

My complaint was the general tone. Limbaugh is a snake who uses pieces of specifics to create that general tone. I am not going to try to piece specifics together to make you understand something that is readily apparent just by watching Limbaugh. (About as specific as I can be is being pro-war and pro-execution. Both are slippery slopes).

Then you fail. I've listened to Limbaugh, read columns by Coulter (very funny stuff, if a bit snarky) and both listened to and watched Beck (he might be as crazy and/or as paranoid as Olbermann, but nowhere near as angry as MSNBC's star attraction). I've never seen any calls or even suggestions for violence. Can you say the same for the "church" Obama attended for 20 years?

Besides, I don't know if it was agreement with those rabid pundits that set him off or disagreement.

It has to be one or the other? And what about his agreement or disagreement with the rabid punditry of Olbermann or DailyKos? Myopia much?

Say, what if this nutter never listened to Limbaugh, Beck or Coulter? That would kinda mess up your theory, huh?

All I know is that anger and violent rhetoric spread like a disease.

And apparently, all you know is that anger and violent rhetoric only exist on the right, because you so consistently and willfully ignore the anger and violent rhetoric on the left.

For the record, I suspect the nutcase shooter didn't commit this atrocity because he was a Leftist, but rather because he's nuts. But he might have been more prone to violence thanks to his Leftist leanings. The Left has no room whatsoever trying to claim that right-of-center folks are more prone to violence when the long record of history proves just the opposite. Maybe one day you'll learn to accept that, runwithscissors.

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

chotto:

The logic that "I need a gun to defend myself incase someone uses one on me" is compltely flawed logic. How on earth do you use a gun in "self defence"? Sharp-shoot a bullet into their wrist and disarm them from whatever weapon they might be carrying?

Have you ever read my postings about the time someone tried to mug me? Long story short, I used my gun in self-defense successfully, and didn't even have to fire it, as is the case with many (if not most) incidents of armed self-defense in America.

The fact that anyone has the right to own a gun is an unfortunate, out-dated law.

No, self-defense is a basic human right. Probably the most basic and important one of all. Guns have been proven to be effective tools for self-defense many times. Just look for a website titled "The Armed Citizen". Hundreds of reports on there.

Believe it or not, you do NOT need guns to function as a society and keep law and order.

That depends greatly on the society.

And the above article is a classic case of why the public should not be allowed anywhere near a firearm, let alone OWN one.

So only the authorities (police and military) should have guns? Oh yeah, that worked great in 1930's Germany. /sarcasm

timthesocialist:

What the hell is with all the people on this page blaming this on leftists? Why would leftists attack leftists? You people are idiots.The guy who did this is a right wing radical. To blame this on the left after all the violent rhetoric from tea party hacks.

You really should try reading threads before posting on them. You were debunked before you ever typed a letter.

Giffords is not a Leftist, she is a moderate, "blue dog" Democrat and former Republican. The federal judge killed in this was a Republican appointed by president George W. Bush. Two of the shooter's favorite books were The Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf, regular favorites of Left-wing anarchists. There have also been statements from multiple school friends of his that he is a radical Leftist.

skipthesong:

I'm sensing both you guys on the right and left want this guy to be one of the other.... what do you gain by that?

No, I'm just fed up with Leftists reflexively blaming everything violent on the Right, when Lee Harvey Oswald, Bill Ayers and the rest of his Weather Underground gang, Lynnette "Squeaky" Fromme, The Black Panthers, the Earth Liberation Front, John Wilkes Booth, Leon Frank Czolgosz, Sirhan Sirhan, Jim Jones, the Symbionese Liberation Army, and James Wenneker von Brunn were either left-leaning or full-blown radical Leftists with a capital "L". And that's only the short list! There's also Clay Duke, Joe Stack, David Guy McKay, Bradley Neal Crowder, the SEIU things who beat Kenneth Gladney, all the Leftists who committed acts of violence against those attending the 2008 Republican convention, etc., etc., etc.

Zurcronium:

Let this day go down in history with April 14, 1865, November 22, 1963, April 4, 1968 and June 5, 1968. This was a political crime promoted by the right wing echo chamber, their own home brewed self-professed terrorist.

You really should read threads before posting on them.

Calling this anti-government loon a liberal shows how guilty the tea party conservatives are for their horrible and violent rhetoric.

It's his own friends calling him a Leftist. Seriously, do you read anything but Kos?

Junnama:

Though I appreciate your long diatribe about media bias, are we done now pretending that the symbols on Palins map are surveyor symbols?

I never pretended anything about the symbols, just pointing out that sailwind was technically correct.

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

Madverts:

Meh, the illigitimate child. Plus the moher's shrieking.

Trust the extreme right to take my comments and twist 'em.

Game. Set. Match.

Blaming others for your own inability to express yourself? Did you and runwithscissors take the same English class?

Oh, and Bokhuto, the crosshairs will be interpreted in a different manner now, legitimate or not. You right-wing jobs are perhaps finally going to learn that your PR might coime back to bite you in the

But only Palin's crosshairs, and not Moulitsas' crosshairs (or one of his bloggers saying that Giffords is "dead" to them), is that right?

Could you be more partisan or myopic?

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

The latest is that Giffords is able to communicate, albeit simply, and recognize her family. Doctors are optimistic, although cautiously noting that her recovery may well be a difficult one.

Also, the police are searching for a possible second suspect. Perhaps someone took the shooter under their wing and influenced him?

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

Madverts:

Sorry bud, Bristol Palin, like il madre, deserve the damage to the panes within the glass houses they throw stones.

Bristol Palin deserved death threats?!? Over a dance show?!? That's odd, I don't recall Bristol, Sarah, or any of the Palin family issuing death threats against anybody.

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

Madverts,

Just as you weren't made aware of Moulitsas' bullseye ads, you haven't been made aware of the death threats against Sarah Palin, because they don't fit the left-wing media's template. JT won't let me post links, so I will just have to ask you to put your blinders down and look for:

fireandreamitchell /2010/03/25/left-wing-extremist-issues-death-threats-against-sarah-palin-tea-party-members-and-eric-cantor-on-twitter

You will likely complain that the source isn't Leftist-approved, like CNN, NPR, or the NYT. But that's my point: The left-leaning media (which is the majority of the news media) ignore whatever doesn't fit their own prejudice.

And while that same media couldn't ignore the death threats against Bristol Palin over her appearance on a "reality" TV show (No wonder there's not a single Democrat voter who doesn't think Sarah Palin said "I can see Russia from my house".), they didn't treat those threats with the same tone as they're treating her mother's ad from last year's election. Yet they can ignore a DailyKos bullseye ad run during the same election. Myopia, anyone?

The radical left are a rightious pain in the back-side I'll admit, but they cannot vomit up the froth, bile nor hate that comes from their opposing extremist right-wing brothers...

Really? Ever watched coverage of a G20 riot? Ever read Michelle Malkin's hate mail? (Malkin had to move her family, you know, because of death threats. Yet she's never said or printed anything on the level of the venom that is directed at her.) Ever read the wishes for a slow and painful death from cancer that Laura Ingraham received?

You're not looking.

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

Junnama:

Don't know about Moulitsas.

I'm not surprised. But you knew about Palin's ad. And you don't stop to ask yourself why that is.

I'm seeing a pattern here, and it has to do with the obsession with Palin practiced by the left-of-center which populate the media. Groupthink, anyone?

Say, anybody remember the trouncing Palin got for her "Don't party like it's 1773 yet" tweet after the November elections? Or was it an FB post? In any case, Leftists all over the media pounced on her comment, ridiculing her and calling her stupid. Only they had to backtrack when it turned out that 1773 was the year of the Boston Tea Party and Palin knew her American history better than the media Leftists who ridiculed her.

Moulitsas participated in that one too. As did NPR mouthpiece and presidential debate moderator Gwen Ifill.

That was funny. Palin-haters and the like trying to link a Palin ad to yesterday's shooting in order to justify their prejudice isn't funny.

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

Correction:

It wasn't Morkos Moulitsas (DailyKos) who wrote that Giffords was "dead to me", but rather a blogger named "BoyBlue" on his site. Still, Moulitsas did use bullseye targets on ads during the previous election, including a bullseye on Arizona.

That certain JT posters can only find enough room in their posts to bash Palin is... telling. And predictable, frankly.

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

Junnama:

A real mouse doesn't wear pants, but it doesn't change the fact that if you draw Mickey Mouse people are going to know he's a mouse.

Except that intelligent (and sane) people know that Mickey Mouse is a cartoon.

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

runwithscissors:

WhiteHawk, instead of trying to "win" the argument, just go back to Mikehuntz's first post. Most of what I said about righties and conservatives was just bile to spew on that utter tripe. He started it.

Stop blaming Mikehuntz for your posts and take responsibility for your own actions.

You just want your "win" fix. And that is part of the reason you refuse to condemn his obnoxious post.

I've already told you why I haven't condemned his post. You just don't like my answer.

But I am serious when I say that pro-death penalty and pro-gun are traditional conservative positions. And holding those positions is much like a smoking father telling his kids not to smoke. Its too late, he already set the example, and so often the kids will go with the example rather than the order. Its human nature and it just goes double for nuts.

Using a gun in self-defense is a conservative position. Using a gun for a killing spree of innocent people is not a conservative position. Again, it's telling that you cannot see the difference.

The U.S. of A. is a hot bed of gun violence compared to other first world countries, and yes, the reason why is because America leans toward those conservative positions.

Actually, it's because of all the loose criminals in America, armed or not. Despite all the gun laws, more criminals possess guns in America than probably any other country on Earth. (Ironically for anti-gun people, gun violence is the worst in cities where gun laws are the strictest, or gun bans have been in place for decades.) Not that they always need guns to commit crimes, like the guy who tried to mug me. The difference is, in America, private citizens in most states can arm themselves against those criminals.

The outrage is in the same place as outrage over speeding compared to a vehicular manslaughter! Marijuana cannot be used to kill, not even the user!

Never heard of drunk driving? Hasn't marijuana use been shown to cause or increase paranoia?

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

nandakandamanda

Is anyone asking how someone like this was able to get a Glock with a 30-round mag?

I am; just haven't asked it here.

chotto:

Cretin. People who own firearms to use on other people are deragned. Simple.

When not in self-defense, yes.

Junnama:

I suggest you google or yahoo image search "gunsight symbol" and see how many of the images have crosshairs extending outside the circle radius.

That doesn't change the fact that gun scopes physically do not have crosshairs extending outside the circle.

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

Frungy:

Oh come one people, this isn't about gun control. Need I remind you that some nutcase in Akihabara managed to kill 7 people with knives a year and a half ago? Ban knives and they'll use vehicles. Ban vehicles and they'll use something else.

The bottom line is that this guy was mentally unstable and stuck in a society so uncaring that he never received the treatment he needed. If he'd been properly identified and institutionalised then this incident would never have happened.

An associate in Australia tells me that since their gun ban and confiscation, people use broken beer bottles. Makes a mass killing like this more difficult, but people are still being murdered by violent killers.

There once was a time when people like Loughner would have been institutionalized. But a Supreme Court ruling back in the 70's found that people could only be institutionalized if they proved to be a danger to themselves and others. The homeless population immediately skyrocketed as mental institutions were closed across the country. Enrollment at UC Berkeley went up, however. (Okay, just kidding about that last one!)

qazwsx:

Of course he's a wacko, but they get influenced by what they hear and see. He seems like many of those Tea Partiers-mixed up and confused about all different ideologies. Tea Partiers (certainly closer to Republicans on the Right) complaining about Democrat (Liberal) Obama's "Socialist" healthcare plan, while holding up posters of him with a Hitler mustache (Fascist), and hammer and sickles (Communism).

This is absolutely true, but the fact that Palin sent a tweet after healthcare reform asking her supporters to "don't retreat, reload", and included a link to her Facebook page which had a map of the USA with congressional districts that voted for Obama's reforms targeted with gun crosshairs (including Giffords') is absolutely abhorrent. And today she sends her condolences to the victims and their families.......

It's becoming more and more apparent that Loughner wasn't listening to Palin or anyone else on the right. Besides, Markos Moulitsas (DailyKos) also used a bullseye ad during the last election, including a bullseye on Arizona. If that's not enough for you, he also claimed "GIFFORDS IS DEAD TO ME" just two days before she was shot.

But then you only remember right-of-center people carrying protest signs of Obama with a Hitler mustache, and don't seem to remember the eight years of Leftists carrying protests signs of G.W. bush with a Hitler mustache. So there's probably no reaching you.

Do a bit of research, there have been many studies that show the majority of guns used by the cartels in Mexico come from the USA. Our lax laws allow guns to be sold then smuggled to Mexico

That's already been debunked.

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

How am I a hypocrite though WH? I said its not fair to say he represents either side. But it sure looks to me like he got his ideas from one side, and that is the problem.

You're kidding, right? No, of course you're not. You just say he's a "conservative" and a "rightist", then turn around and say you "would prefer that no one accuse him of being right or left." And you can't see your own hypocrisy. Additionally, you previously told me to "switch out of 'denial' mode". Which is exactly what you're stuck in. Now is that hypocrisy, or projection you're practicing? Hmmm...

I might be wrong about his "association" with conservatives. I don't mind, I will happily eat that mistake, simply because he represents neither side anyway.

So he's either associated with conservatives, or nobody at all. Gotcha. ;) It's not whether he represents anyone. It's what he has been influenced by, and you can't make the connection to conservatives or anyone on the right. I can, however, make the connection to the left. And already have made two connections.

...but to tar conservatives for their politics of death that may have influenced this nut and their double standards of association...

Except you have never made any connection between conservatives' "politics of death" (Excuse me? Which is the "abortion party"? Which is the "assisted suicide" party?) and this shooter's actions.

And also there was the point of making people see the falseness of the conservative medicine so often passed around this board.

And just what "falseness" is that?

But you don't you realize that by attacking my posts rather than those of Mikehuntz, you are just backing up many of the things I said about conservatives?

No, I'm proving you wrong for claiming Loughner is a "conservative" or a "rightist". That's all.

Smack him for shouting "LEFTY", not me for trying to shut him down. Or do you approve of his message?

The reason I haven't "attacked" him is because the evidence (so far) supports him and his claim that Loughner is a Leftist. Go back to my previous post and read that third paragraph again. Or rather, read it for the first time, since you seemed to skip it before writing your response.

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

What I am surprised about is your insistance that there can be no connection between that ad and the constant conservative position that killing is a necessary mode of justice.

Nice strawman. You're making that connection off of what, Sarge's comments that Loughner should get the death penalty if convicted? That Palin's ad had crosshair targets in it? Wow, that's flimsy. You're only seeing what you want to see because of your blind (and ill-informed) prejudice.

Just as you're trying to paint Loughner as a right-winger. How are you doing that? No, seriously, how are you justifying that to yourself? Let me hazard a guess: This was an act of violence. You think right-wingers are inherently violent. One of the high-profile victims is a Democrat. Since you're already prejudiced against anybody right-of-center, it's no trouble for you to ignore that Giffords is a "blue-dog", and is to the right of center on several issues. So for you, the circle of logic is complete.

Except that there's nothing coming out about this guy connecting him to the right. Two of his favorite books are Marx's Communist Manifesto and Hitler's Mein Kampf, two regulars on the reading lists of left-wingers and anarchists. One of his former classmates describes him in her tweets as "very liberal".

But then, I shouldn't be surprised that you can't differentiate between a death sentence for a convicted murderer and a crime of murder. You also probably can't differentiate between a criminal using a gun during a crime and a legal gun owner using a gun in self-defense (which I have done).

I would prefer that no one accuse him of being right or left.

But you've already said:

runwithscissors at 10:56 AM JST - 9th January

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

Should have read, "It makes for a much more police state."

You've never lived in a real police state, have you?

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Posted in: Arizona Rep Giffords shot, 6 killed, including judge, 9-year-old girl See in context

This isn't a tragedy, it's an atrocity. Five people killed, one being a 9-year-old girl. It's beyond awful for all those involved.

But I strongly suspect that those who are reflexively pinning this to Sarah Palin, the T.E.A. Party, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh or anybody else on the right (which, as I accurately figured, are the usual JT suspects), will have quite a bit of crow to eat as more is learned about Jared Loughner.

Other facts already established: Giffords is a moderate Democrat who supports border enforcement and a few other T.E.A. Party ideals. Judge John Roll was a Bush appointee.

I see that the Associated Press isn't changing its spots any time soon. The AP writer just had to mention Palin and her "target" ad. Again, I bet the "usual JT suspects" will be surprised to learn just how irrelevant that ad was to this horrible event.

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Posted in: Mother killed, 5 hurt in gunbattle at California mall See in context

No, Hotbox08, it just proves that you and your friends have never been mugged, assaulted, robbed, car-jacked, raped, etc. And my point isn't that "everybody needs a gun". My points are that people have an inalienable right to provide for their own defense, that guns are effective personal defense tools, and that America doesn't have "lax gun laws" but rather lax law enforcement.

I don't know if I'll ever need to defend myself again. In fact, I hope I don't. But the one time I did have to, I'm glad I was armed. So for the foreseeable future, I will remain armed. If you and your friends can afford to live in safe, secure areas where your safety is not at risk, consider yourselves blessed and don't take it for granted.

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Posted in: Mother killed, 5 hurt in gunbattle at California mall See in context

It seems my previous response was pulled by the mods for some reason or another, so I'll have to write everything again.

Zenny11:

South Africa, many of my friends that emmigrated to the states were very vocal that would rather walk unarmed through Central Park than down a road in SA.

Central Park is safer these days because a recent mayor decided it was time to enforce laws against criminal activity. What a concept: Going after bad people ended up reducing bad things being done with guns.

Different people have different opinions and experiences accept that.

I do. You're the one having trouble accepting the opinions and experiences of others.

If you get mugged in one of those areas and carry, guess what they will KILL you with your own gun.

If you say so, but this story (and the subsequent discussion) is about guns and crime in America. And here, the result is typically quite the opposite: (Well, I tried to post two articles from a Houston news station that recounted two stories of citizens using guns against armed robbers and killing them, in the same neighborhood, within two days time. But the great and wise JT automatic moderation software wouldn't let me post the links because they were "potentially offensive content". Oh well. On Friday in Houston, a jewelery store owner shot and killed three armed robbers. And the police are calling him a hero.)

I can find you hundreds more articles like that. If JT would just let me post the links...

And they are usually in a group of 3+ people = good luck becoming Dirty harry, etc while you are being restrained from behind.

In my previous response, I went into detail about my experience, and the experience of an acquaintance who was mugged in just the fashion you describe. Perhaps that is what got my post pulled by the mods? As I no longer have the email address I registered with, I don't know. To make it short, I was restrained from behind, albeit by a lone assailant, and had no trouble using my gun in self-defense.

Those muggers know guns better than you and fully know the limitations and how to use them.

Don't be ridiculous. I grew up hunting and shooting, having been carrying for many years, and have successfully used a gun in self-defense. By contrast, I see gang members or wannabes (like the ones in the original article) at the range on occasion. They hold their handguns sideways because they saw it done in a movie or rap video, don't hit a thing, and then are asked to leave by the RSO (range safety officer).

This is my point the upstanding citizen next to you might be right now braking the law in some way. If he carries are you going to ask him to show his licence, etc? Would the cops do?

Yes, the police do check for carry permits when they see that a citizen is armed. At least here in Tennessee they do.

BTW, most criminals will laugh at a citizen pulling a gun as most people(by nature) are reluctant to injure or kill someone, and neither trained to shoot straight or under stress.. Forget the bravado, etc.

I've asked you before about your experience with criminals, and you talked of other countries and cultures. My personal, direct experience here in the U.S. proves that you are completely wrong and thoroughly out of touch with the climate here.

A gun is an OFFENSIVE weapon and in 85% of all cases useless as a defensive one. Check with the police and military if you don"t believe me.

Much of my family is in the military, and I know quite a few policemen and detectives. You are utterly, completely wrong.

Like I said before the Lie that if I pull a gun it all goes away is just that a LIE.

Really? Worked for me just fine. The fact that I'm alive and writing this proves that you're wrong.

It's just fascinating that - far removed from the U.S. - you insist that American citizens improve their chances of surviving robberies - armed and otherwise - by being unarmed and defenseless. Just fascinating. In a bizarre, disturbed way.

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Posted in: Mother killed, 5 hurt in gunbattle at California mall See in context

Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

That description could also apply to sanctimonious hoplophobes. It's their mindset. Their fear of guns is so irrational, they mentally block out the fact that evil, violent people will use whatever tools they can. Physical strength, knives, your own clothing, and in my case, a simple nylon strap around my neck.

The people involved in this shooting used guns in an illegal manner, and in all likelihood, possessed the guns illegally to begin with. The laws were already in place. They just weren't enforced. That poor woman is dead because California has other priorities than enforcing its laws.

And not just laws concerning guns, but also laws concerning gang activity. In other articles about this event, several of the people involved are said to be gang members.

Also, one of shooters has died of his wounds. 20-year-old Marvion Barksdale.

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Posted in: Mother killed, 5 hurt in gunbattle at California mall See in context

Zenny11:

More than I care to recall. I used to carry a Gun for many Years as I lived in a [country] that makes the USA look safe.

Which country? And which part of the U.S.? And can you provide any statistical evidence that people who were confronted had a better chance of surviving by being unarmed?

manfromamerica:

Wow, that's quite an imagination you have! But a completely unrealistic situation.

You say imagination, I say paranoia. Either way, I suspect the only time cleo has ever seen a gun it's been on TV, or in the holster of a policeman or military personnel. Speaking of TV, Hollywood's penchant for stereotypes and over-dramatization seems to have her believing in myths.

cleo:

I would have said it's the Wild West mindset that has people thinking they need a gun to deal with 'confrontations' that's the problem.

What "Wild West mindset"? And what's your alternative solution?

Oh, and by the way, you're still wrong: "Wild West mindset" or not, if the laws were enforced, the overwhelmingly vast majority of gun crimes could not take place.

Plus the way a sizable section of the society seems to be being raised to believe that a gun is a legitimate conversation-stopper.

That must be a different section of society than the one I was raised in. But like I have said before, a gun has proven to me to be an effective confrontation-stopper.

Most of the rest of us get by OK in a world where we don't need to live in fear of these daily confrontations.

"Daily" confrontations? Who said they're being confronted daily?

How nice for you. Unfortunately, many people cannot afford to live in your neighborhood.

BTW, you're British, right? Are you claiming that there is no violence in Britain?

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