Australia passes tough hate crime laws with mandatory jail time for Nazi salutes

Patently obvious there is a deeply ingrained neo-nazi problem plaguing Australia.

Otherwise, they wouldn't be passing these laws.

Not an Australian citizen, but approve.

Certain symbols and words are almost universally agreed on to represent the worst aspects of human nature, and those symbols and words have no purpose but to cause hurt.

Think how the n-word used to be "acceptable" and now is not. The Musk salute (which is how I'm going to refer to it going forward) belongs in the same category.

Australia passed tough anti-hate crime laws on Thursday, including mandatory minimum sentences for terror offences and displaying hate symbols

Minimum sentences for terror offences? Shouldn't they already have had such laws?

As for criminalizing "hate symbols" and "hate speech," those things can be defined as ... well, whatever the government says they are.

No decent person supports anti-Semitism or Nazism, of course.

But anyone who doesn't see the inherent danger in giving the government the power to decide what "hate speech" is either is (a) horribly naïve, or (b) is actually okay with political leaders potentially using "hate speech laws" to censor, silence, and even engage in "lawfare" against their opponents.

The laws will impose minimum jail sentences between 12 months for less serious hate crimes, such as giving a Nazi salute in public

Shouldn't that also apply to expressions of support for communism too? Such as wearing a hammer-and-sickle lapel pin or a Che t-shirt?

After all, communist regimes have at least just as bad of a human-rights record as Nazi Germany did. If not worse.

It should be just as disagreeable to call oneself a communist as society sees calling oneself a Nazi. Around 150 million corpses should be more than enough proof of that.

We're all for cracking down on ACTUAL crime, but this is just another step toward criminalizing free speech and thought. Australia has ZERO real protections for freedom of expression, and now we're setting a dangerous precedent - what’s next? Mandatory prison for questioning mass immigration? Jail time for criticizing the LABOR GOVERNMENT's climate agenda? Fines for quoting the Bible if it offends the alphabet crowd?

When a nation starts banning gestures and policing opinions, it's not long before they start criminalizing anyone who doesn't fall in line with their sick agenda.

Tokyo Guy Today  02:27 pm JST

Not an Australian citizen, but approve.

The Musk salute (which is how I'm going to refer to it going forward) belongs in the same category.

Musk wasn't making a Nazi salute -- anymore than Hillary Clinton, Taylor Swift, Elizabeth Warren, Barack Obama, and Kamala Harris were making Nazi salutes when they engaged in strikingly similar arm gestures.

But according to you, all these people should be JAILED because the government has the right to (a) crawl into their heads, and (b) determine with their highly astute mind-reading skills that these people are all neo-Nazis.

Do you even hear yourself? Do you not realize what sort of Orwellian 1984-type stuff you're advocating?

No one denies that Nazism and Nazi salutes are horrid. But now you're getting into dangerous territory here -- you're actually advocating for the government to have the power to JAIL people based on what it claims to know about the true meaning of people's arm gestures.

Nazi is not free speech, it is plan and simple nazi.

After all, communist regimes have at least just as bad of a human-rights record as Nazi Germany did. If not worse.

It should be just as disagreeable to call oneself a communist as society sees calling oneself a Nazi. Around 150 million corpses should be more than enough proof of that

Your scholarship of WW2 is rightly respected on here but I think there are differences.

Here’s what I have come across.

Many Communists ( I’m not one ) that the butchery of Mao, Stalin etc were not a true representation of communism.

Christians ( I’m not one ) do the same thing when confronted with their past butchery. They say that isn’t a true representation of Christianity.

The butchery of Nazism was a true representation of Nazism.

Hence the hammer and sickle and cross don’t carry the same baggage.

Just what I’ve heard argued. I haven’t read half the books written on it.

I don’t see how these bans really do much good. Trolls/idiots might do it just to be edgy.

Many Communists ( I’m not one ) that

argue that

Not an Australian citizen, but approve.

Certain symbols and words are almost universally agreed on to represent the worst aspects of human nature, and those symbols and words have no purpose but to cause hurt.

Absolute classic: "I love free speech, but only for things I personally approve of!" Nothing says 'defender of democracy' like cheering on governments that police hand gestures. Yay!

Hey TG, if symbols and words have "no purpose but to cause hurt," I assume you're also calling for hammer-and-sickle bans, since that little emblem has a body count in the hundreds of millions. If not, can't wait for your reasoning as to why you're not actually against hate, just against things that offend you personally.

Australia passed tough anti-hate crime laws on Thursday, including mandatory minimum sentences for terror offences and displaying hate symbols,

.... would that include the Hamas flag? Not holding my breath. It is unlikely the Aussi government even read the Hamas Charter.

The laws will impose minimum jail sentences between 12 months for less serious hate crimes, such as giving a Nazi salute in public, 

So anyone can be accused of a hate crime for simply waiving to the waiter or to a crowd? Good grief, what can of worms did these misguided zealots just open.

After all, communist regimes have at least just as bad of a human-rights record as Nazi Germany did. If not worse.

Oh look, it's the same old "the commies are worst than the nazis!!!" trope.

Except the founding principles of Karl Marx's communism have absolutely no evil inherent value.

The main issue with Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao Tse-tung is not that they were communists, it's that they were dictators. Using communism as a tool to build murderous, authoritarian regimes.

Now the founding principles of nazism, on the other hand, absolutely are purely evil. It's evil by design. "The Communist Manifesto" and "Mein Kampf" are two very, very different books.

For example, one of the founding principles of nazism is that any acts sanctioned by Adolf Hitler were officially legal, murder included. You will never find things like that anywhere in Marx's theories (if you do, let me know what page).

Now, is communism a viable political theory? I don't think so. Humans are too greedy to make it work.

But if you're talking purely about policies, nazis are and will always be the worst.

Jay Today  02:39 pm JST

We're all for cracking down on ACTUAL crime, but this is just another step toward criminalizing free speech and thought. 

Exactly -- but, given the down-votes your comment (and mine) are getting here, it seems that many people are actually okay with this.

That's almost certainly because they subscribe to a political ideology that can't win in a fair fight in the marketplace of ideas -- so they feel they must resort to silencing other points of view instead, even if it means "lawfare."

Nazi is not free speech, it is plan and simple nazi

It is free speech. It’s appalling free speech but it’s still free speech.

Musk wasn't making a Nazi salute 

Of course he was. The man supports the AFD in Germany, which is the closest thing we now have to actual, full-fledged nazis. Why wouldn't he make a nazi salute? But regardless, the mere fact that there is any doubt as to whether he was really doing it or not is already a huge red flag.

Tokyo Guy Today  02:27 pm JST

Not an Australian citizen, but approve.

Certain symbols and words are almost universally agreed on to represent the worst aspects of human nature, and those symbols and words have no purpose but to cause hurt.

Think how the n-word used to be "acceptable" and now is not. The Musk salute (which is how I'm going to refer to it going forward) belongs in the same category.

Interesting.

You want to jail people for making arm gestures that some government overlord deems unacceptable.

Here’s what I have come across. 

Many Communists ( I’m not one ) that the butchery of Mao, Stalin etc were not a true representation of communism.

Sorry armchair historian, but trying to salvage scraps of "good" from the worst regimes in history is like complimenting the Titanic on its interior design - utterly delusional and disgraceful.

The idea that Stalin and Mao "weren’t true communists" is like as saying Hitler "wasn't a true Nazi” because he went too far. So if your defense of communism is "it just hasn't been done right yet!" then congratulations - you sound exactly like the kind of person who would say the same thing about Nazism.

Australia passes Nazi style laws against Nazis. How ironic.

A sad day for free speech.

The main issue with Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao Tse-tung is not that they were communists, it's that they were dictators. Using communism as a tool to build murderous, authoritarian regimes.

LOL! So they weren't real communists, just dictators who used communism? Brilliant. Then go on, EXPLAIN how exactly do you implement communism without centralized control, forced wealth redistribution, and absolute suppression of dissent?

SPOILER ALERT: You can't.

The (your) entire ideology requires authoritarian rule to function. Every single time it's been attempted, it has resulted in mass starvation, political purges, and a complete loss of individual freedom.

But ok, keep pretend it's just some unlucky coincidence that communism always ends in dictatorship. By your logic, perhaps we just need to try it one more time - with the "right people" in charge, of course! LOL

So they weren't real communists, just dictators who used communism?

Yup. Exactly like Russia is on paper a "democracy" (and was officially created as such in 1993), which follows the basics tenets of capitalism, but is actually a violent authoritarian regime. The issue in their case isn't capitalism, it's the dictator running the country.

The (your) entire ideology

I'm not a communist. Like I said, I don't think it's a viable system.

People will be terrified of waving or even throwing a frisbee for fear that someone will interpret it as a nazi salute.

Freedom has limit like everything in life. You are not free to salut like a Nazi, you are not free to kill a cat (for example). That is human one o one.

Australia passes Nazi style laws against Nazis.

Australia passes antiracist laws against racists. Please consult a history book to avoid such a faux pas in the future.

Elon Musk, meanwhile, has restored free-speech to social media

Really? how about trying to write the names of the people he put in charge of reviewing federal agencies? that is an insta-ban and being accused of committing a crime (with the implicit threat).

and in just two short weeks has played a key role in exposing and eliminating waste, fraud, and financial abuse in the American government.

Only if by eliminating waste you mean eliminating the agency that provided aid in many countries including ("coincidentally") against Apartheid in South Africa. It seems that Musk never forgive the agency's role suppressing racism and segregation.

https://adst.org/2021/06/american-peoples-foreign-policy-usaids-role-in-apartheid-south-africa/

People will be terrified of waving or even throwing a frisbee for fear that someone will interpret it as a nazi salute.

Contrary to what apologists try to misrepresent the salute is extremely easy to identify and impossible to confuse with any of the many gestures that include raising or lowering an arm.

But I thought I was back at school in the USA judge I was doing the Bellamy salute. You know that good old USA gesture.

But anyone who doesn't see the inherent danger in giving the government the power to decide what "hate speech" is either is (a) horribly naïve, or (b) is actually okay with political leaders potentially using "hate speech laws" to censor, silence, and even engage in "lawfare" against their opponents.

Governments can "try" but the judiciary in Australia is separate and any interpretation must pass legality through the courts. Trying to use this for their own political ends would see uproar by opposition parties and the general public. It could cost a government in any election year, and see them removed and the laws watered down, removed or replaced.

Mandatory minimum sentences for any offenses take the discretion away from the Judiciary, the body who imposes sentences.

Excludes all sorts of factors ....not here talking about Nazi salutes per se ... that a Court would normally take into account...age of offender...mental acuity of offender...belonging to a group that had power over offender...and so on and so forth.

So mandatory offences a sledgehammer to crush a walnut in many cases.

As to the Nazi salute ,symbol.

Itself stolen from Hindu mythology...there is a "Swastika bungalow " in Kuta...been running for decades...does some tourist taking a selfie be breaking Aussie law.? Ridiculous.

Swastika imagery as offensive to all allied troops who fought Germany as it is to Jews.

Note : can Jews please stop "weaponising the holocaust " and making the false claim it was purely Jew hatred.

Nazis and ordinary Germans killed the mentally disabled, the crippled, dwarfs, Roma, communists, trade union leaders by the multi thousands as well as killing Jews.

Holocaust victims widespread...offensive to forget other victims while elevating Jewish victims as the only "true victims ".

Public education in Australia to belittle those painting swastika on cars and buildings better than all encompassing laws.

Laws which I presume come from Jewish lobbyists.

When anti Muslim graffiti and anti Asian grafitti spread, even when a part of a political party supporting the Liberal Party, PM John Howard said

"People have a right to be bigots "

One rule for anti Islam, one rule for anti semiticism

Stiff arm spasms are too ridiculous for ordinary folk to worry over, but government types will never miss an opportunity to get their hands on more power by making more crimes to punish.

Virus: NO, it can be confuse with a hell of a lot gestures. EG. Hail Caesar, Have look at old movies, To get the attention of a taxi. Saluting the USA flag (Bellamy salute).. It a gesture that the fascist had used for only 14 years. Where Romans use it for 4 centuries and murdered a lot more than 6 million just everyday normal. people. I will never recognise it as a Fascist own gesture nor the Menji. The Menji has been used on Buddhist temples in Japan for over a 1000 years and still use today where the Fascist use the swasticka for 14 years. A 1000,s years of tradition out weigh a mere 14 years, The Jew haven't got dibs on empathy and the recent behaviour disqualification of such a luxury.

We're all for cracking down on ACTUAL crime, but this is just another step toward criminalizing free speech and thought.

There is a clear correlation between those with hard right views and the defence of neo-Nazis who have no interest in freedom of any sort for people of the wrong colour or religion.

Australia has ZERO real protections for freedom of expression,

It does. It may operate a little differently to the absolutist form in the US, but it does, and there are legal precedents demonstrating this.

and now we're setting a dangerous precedent - what’s next? Mandatory prison for questioning mass immigration? Jail time for criticizing the LABOR GOVERNMENT's climate agenda? Fines for quoting the Bible if it offends the alphabet crowd?

The slippery slope fallacy, and an opportunity for you to run through a list of right wing fantasy hobby horses.

People will be terrified of waving or even throwing a frisbee for fear that someone will interpret it as a nazi salute.

Again, I note that those with hard right views are quick to oppose this. But in Raw Bert's case it is not because of freedom of speech to hate but for fear of playing frisbee misinterpreted as a Nazi salute, perish the thought!

So remind me, in Germany, where it is already illegal to do a Nazi salute, how many people get arrested for waving or playing frisbee?

I think we know the answer, because this argument was not serious, but rather a poorly deployed slippery slope fallacy.

I miss the days, when the mere mention of Governments creating so-called 'hate speech' laws, got you branded a conspiracy theorist.

Yet here we are.

I miss the days, when the mere mention of Governments creating so-called 'hate speech' laws, got you branded a conspiracy theorist.

When were those days? I don't recollect them.

Cowardly Aust, Govt, bowing to a genocidal regime in Isreal...not a good look ALP

Nazi like edict

ironic

For about 2000 years it was a Roman salute. It only became commonly regarded as Nazi in the late 1930's.

The "Roman salute" is a myth - it is a modern invention, but for some reason this line has become popular with this those on the hard right following Musk's fiasco. Is your argument that Musk was doing a "Roman salute", despite such a thing never existing in antiquity?

There is a clear correlation between those with hard right views and the defence of neo-Nazis who have no interest in freedom of any sort for people of the wrong colour or religion. 

YAWN. Another tired Uber "Liberal" caricature. FACTS: right wing views equal personal freedom, limited government, and individual responsibility. They do NOT equate neo-Nazism, which you seem to lump in with every conservative.

If you're so desperate to pin extremism on the right, maybe take a long, hard look at your own sad Leftist policies that have ushered in authoritarian socialism and cultural decay, while you ride your slippery slope of baseless generalizations straight into irrelevance!

Virus: NO, it can be confuse with a hell of a lot gestures.

In a still image where no movement can be seen? maybe, but currently video is the main form to register what people are doing and there is zero confusion about people raising and lowering their arms, or pointing with a finger and later extending the hand, etc.

Fist to the chest and then directly extend the arm up? completely distinctive and impossible to confuse.

The "roman salute" is precisely from where the nazi salute was taken, so it is the same salute, and unless you pump your chest while calling a taxi there is no way to confuse both things.

 I will never recognise it as a Fascist own gesture nor the Menji

The world does, and obviously that has much more importance. If someone don't want to recognize a middle finger stamped in your face as "aggressive" that would not make it less so, it would just make the person deeply in denial.

YAWN. Another tired Uber "Liberal" caricature. FACTS: right wing views equal personal freedom, limited government, and individual responsibility. They do NOT equate neo-Nazism, which you seem to lump in with every conservative.

I agree that freedom of speech is often associated with the tradition of old fashioned liberalism i.e. the state stays out of people's business, both socially and politically.

Yet so often, the calls to protect free speech are strongest when there is a threat to far right hate speech, yet not a whimper when right-wing radicals like "Moms for Liberty" remove books from schools that run in some way contrary to their agenda (e.g. a book about two real gay penguins, one about Japanese internment camps in the US in WW2, a book about Billie Jean-King, Charlotte's Webb, the Diary of Ann Frank etc).

Should the nazi salute be banned? No!

Everyone should know exactly who these people are and what they stand for.

If a man nazi salutes in a forest, and no one is around to see it, does he get jail time?

The rest of the system remained as poor as ever, but the story of trains running on time was spread throughout the media, particularly abroad.

Truth.

https://history.howstuffworks.com/history-vs-myth/did-mussolini-really-keep-trains-running-on-time.htm

That's the thing with a far-right government: it doesn't work for anything (apart for making its leader rich through corruption). That is also one truth right-wingers always conveniently forget when they start arguing how "socialism is terrible and doesn't work". There are lots of exemples of thriving socialist countries, both now (nordic countries) and historically (France). But there are no examples of countries thriving under a far right leader. Not one.

to preserve COMMON SENSE and traditional values - views that are supported by the vast majority of people.

And what are these "traditional values", exactly? (How many minorities do they hurt?)

And what are these "traditional values", exactly?

Oh you know, just the small, insignificant, time-tested principles of family, faith, and personal responsibility that have held our society together in an uninterrupted procession of THOUSANDS OF YEARS. And by the sounds of it, apparently they were all wrong and you're suddenly right!

How many minorities do they hurt

Those values are for everyone. Funny how you try to twist the knife by asking how many minorities had their feelings hurt, as if your warped view of victimhood is the measure of a healthy society. Sorry, but the REAL casualty here is your obsession with grievance, which leaves NOTHING constructive behind.

Oh you know, just the small, insignificant, time-tested principles of family, faith, and personal responsibility

And how does banning a nazi salute go against any of these values, exactly?

Also, "faith"?? Which one? Rastafarianism? Hellenism?

@Footage:

And how does banning a nazi salute go against any of these values, exactly?

At the end of the day if you think banning a gesture - no matter how offensive you personally find it - is somehow compatible with "freedom," then congratulations, you’ve just endorsed the GOVERNMENT deciding which expressions are allowed and which aren't. Today, it's this; tomorrow, it’s a Bible verse, a political slogan, or even your own opinions, once they're deemed "dangerous" by the powers that be. You seem disturbingly okay with that.

Also, "faith"?? Which one? Rastafarianism? Hellenism?

Are you seriously going pretend all belief systems have played an equal role in shaping Western civilization? Every great nation today - along with every major institution of law, morality, and human rights you take for granted - was built on Christianity... not on whatever "trendy", esoteric ideology you pulled out of a community college seminar.