Self-described Nazi becomes first person jailed in Australia for performing outlawed salute

That's a difficult one. Which is more stupid the Nazi or the law in Australia?

He obviously belongs in a psychiatric treatment facility.

More good news from Australia. Great!

Should have moved to the US, where he would have become a prominent figure in the republican party.

so butthurt. 

that type of nonsensical rhetoric cost your team the election.

They just don’t learn.

Stupid result and a bad law. This guy is an idiot, but no worse than the Marxists who wave Soviet flags and get off scot-free for glorifying people responsible for killing far more people than the Nazis, but they get a free pass.

Stupid result and a bad law. This guy is an idiot, but no worse than the Marxists who wave Soviet flags and get off scot-free for glorifying people responsible for killing far more people than the Nazis, but they get a free pass.

Agreed. far more people died at the hands of the hammer and sickle, but if you wave that flag in any woke western country you are celebrated.

Its a rare case in Australia and one that has got lots of attention for the obvious reasons. The blokes a melonhead so theres no sympathy for him, but the laws and their application certainly do need to be discussed. From what you here its the UK that has gone full arm of the law arresting people for gestures and even posts on SNS. A very disturbing phenomenon that one.

This is the enlightened west who keeps telling Japan what to do.

That is ridiculous. Now the government wants to control body movements? From where on does an arm movement become a "Nazi salute"? What happened to "my body my choice"? Seems wokism in Australia has gone out of control.

Nazi salutes should not be banned. Freedom of expression.

ZaphodToday  01:54 pm JST

That is ridiculous. Now the government wants to control body movements? From where on does an arm movement become a "Nazi salute"? What happened to "my body my choice"? Seems wokism in Australia has gone out of control.

Well it is Victoria, the state run (into the ground) by the far-left Labor Party and only until recently headed by pocket tyrant and covid lockdown kommissar Daniel Andrews. Not exactly friends of free speech.

My body my choice ... hey why are you raising your hand like that ? Officer arrest him !!

That salute is a direct admission of admiration for a man who orchestrated the death of six million Jews for no other reason than because they were Jews.

If you think that you should be free to make that gesture, and (in this guy's case) openly admit to aligning yourself with what that gesture means, then you might as well just admit that you hate Jewish people and/or that you're a wannabe edgelord. Don't hide behind the whole "I'm a rugged individualist and no government ain't never going to tell me what to do, no sir" shtick. Just get up and yell it loud; "I'm an anti-semite and proud of it".

Some dude

that you're a wannabe edgelord. Don't hide behind the whole "I'm a rugged individualist and no government ain't never going to tell me what to do, no sir" shtick.

Nothing to do with "rugged individualist". Laws should refer to actions that hurt others, and not to personal opinions.

Just get up and yell it loud; "I'm an anti-semite and proud of it".

That is a personal opinion that should be criticized, but not outlawed. Just to make sure, do you want to arrest all these anti-Israel "Palestine from the river to the sea" protesters too?

That is a personal opinion that should be criticized, but not outlawed. Just to make sure, do you want to arrest all these anti-Israel "Palestine from the river to the sea" protesters too?

I generally go with "you're free to say and do what you want, but you also have the responsibility to accept the consequences of what you say and do". So if you make certain comments in public and someone punches your lights out for saying it, then you own that. (They also own the consequences of punching your lights out).

Similarly, if you make a gesture which has been outlawed and the meaning of which is entirely unambiguous, and you get sent to prison for it, that's on you. If this guy genuinely has the stones to own his punishment, then he's consistent at least, but I bet we'll see a Gofundme or something similar set up in his name sooner or later.

The middle east thing? Likewise. If you want to chant reductionist rhymes which imply the destruction of a group of people (and I'm not limiting that to any one group of people), then you have the freedom to do so, but you are also responsible for what happens.

We see it on social media sometimes. Someone does or says something offensive, their identity is discovered, their workplace informed, and they lose their job. They had the choice to do or say what they did or said, but they also own the repercussions.

That salute is a direct admission of admiration for a man who orchestrated the death of six million Jews for no other reason than because they were Jews.

If you think that you should be free to make that gesture, and (in this guy's case) openly admit to aligning yourself with what that gesture means, then you might as well just admit that you hate Jewish people and/or that you're a wannabe edgelord. Don't hide behind the whole "I'm a rugged individualist and no government ain't never going to tell me what to do, no sir" shtick. Just get up and yell it loud; "I'm an anti-semite and proud of it".

If you start imprisoning people because of gestures, where will you stop? Are you that weak and insecure that you are personally injured by a gesture?

As distasteful as the gesture may be, the law is a disgrace and makes a mockery of western values of liberty and free speech.

If you start imprisoning people because of gestures, where will you stop? Are you that weak and insecure that you are personally injured by a gesture?

Wasn't me who imprisoned him. It was, according to the article, Melbourne Magistrates Court. I don't set the laws.

Wasn't me who imprisoned him. It was, according to the article, Melbourne Magistrates Court. I don't set the laws

Thats a non-answer. You know I was referring to your support of the law.

If you are going to start banning things, the ribbon of st. george would be a good place to start.

It’s nonsensical to try to “police” such things as gestures,

we had disingenuous people running around claiming only some people making the “ok“ sign was really white supremacy.

While their own exact same gestures when found? was just the “ok” sign.

Thats a non-answer. You know I was referring to your support of the law.

You mean do I think it's good that people who give the nazi salute (where it is banned) face the consequences of their actions? Yes.

If the salute in question were not banned in the place where he did it, it would merely be tasteless, and someone may or may not have taken him to task. Or might have joined him, I don't know what the nazi situation is like in Australia. Most of the Aussies I've met have been open-minded, tolerant and very direct in the way they phrase things.

The issue comes down to a fairly simple question: do you consider that there are certain words, gestures, etc. which go beyond the level of free speech and into intentional defamation of, or encouragement of violence or prejudice against, a group of people, be they black people, white people, old people, young people, women, gay people, trans people (I could go on...)? I think that such words and gestures exist. Others don't. Clearly at least one part of Australia feels that the gesture in question falls into such a category.

Fair trial and just outcome. No room in society for Nazi's or what they stand for, and what they incite.

He "pushed the button" in full view of cameras and knew he would face a penalty for breaking the law. He got it. Hardly any point in his complaining about it.

Arresting someone for making a gesture? The Nazis would be proud of that one.

The issue comes down to a fairly simple question: do you consider that there are certain words, gestures, etc. which go beyond the level of free speech and into intentional defamation of, or encouragement of violence or prejudice against, a group of people, be they black people, white people, old people, young people, women, gay people, trans people (I could go on...)? I think that such words and gestures exist. Others don't. Clearly at least one part of Australia feels that the gesture in question falls into such a category.

I've thought about it and I'll agree to your law on one condition;

ONLY I get to decide which words and gestures are forbidden.

Deal?

*ONLY I** get to decide which words and gestures are forbidden.*

The salute that this man made is known worldwide and has a very specific connotation. Your question is intentionally obtuse.

Anyway, why get mad at me? Like I said, it was a court in Melbourne which imprisoned him. Petition them to let him out and change the law.

Seconded. Every gesture and word that offends ME also gets banned. I really hate “jazz hands” lol

Your question is intentionally obtuse.

Its not. It addresses the heart of the matter.

YOU want to be the person who unilaterally decides what words and gestures are forbidden. You would not accept any other opinions in the tragic circumstance where you had any power at all.

Anyway, why get mad at me? 

I'm not. I countered your very problematic support of a law that is an affront to western values.

I'm sure this nazi is going to enjoy his stint at His Majesty's Pleasure.

Lots and lots of non-Aryans in that prison to welcome him, I am certain!

YOU want to be the person who unilaterally decides what words and gestures are forbidden. You would not accept any other opinions in the tragic circumstance where you had any power at all.

Nope again.

But there's a critical juncture where a gesture or a set of words can be used, intentionally, for destructive purposes.

Look, let's take the middle finger gesture, or "flipping the bird" or however you refer to it. It's rude, it's childish, and there is no doubt as to its overall message. Should we ban it? No. Course not. It doesn't carry the connotations of the nazi salute. Nobody sees a middle finger gesture and thinks "holocaust" or "Hitler".

Same with words. Do you think it would be acceptable to use the n-word on this site? If not, why not? The n-word is now all but universally acknowledged as grossly offensive. Do you have the right to go out and yell it in the streets? Yes, as long as you accept the consequences. But if someone used it on here, the mods would censor it (if it wasn't automatically censored before that). Would the mods be in the wrong?

You miss the point.

what happens when the government links a known gesture such as the ok sign as being “white supremacy”?

Your middle finger becomes “fascist/anti authoritarian” banned!

or when the same gesture in one culture means something else in another?

Considering what governments there are in the world, you trust THEM to decide the “meaning” of a gesture?

Years ago, in Berkeley, California, I was in a doughnut shop when a young dude walked in dressed as Hitler, complete with moustache and uniform. I did a double take, and felt a surge of rage, and I noticed a creepy dude in the corner by the door observing. To this day I wonder what kind of initiation it was, and if I would have been justified in assaulting him. What does one do? I let it go....

Good, freedom always must have limit. This is one of the them.

If one person walks up to an African-American, makes the "ok" gesture, and assaults them, then it could be read as an anomaly.

If a hundred people did it in the space of a week, it would be closer to a pattern.

If half a country started doing it, then it would be fairly out in the open what they intended that gesture to mean. Somewhere along the line is the point where it stops being a gesture per se, and starts taking on an entirely different dimension.

Now, depending on where you stand on freedom of gesture / speech, you may consider such a gesture to be acceptable, even when its meaning has been co-opted into something which is clearly intended to be destructive. But it would be turning a blind eye to pretend that it hadn't taken on a life of its own as a symbol of hatred.

Did anyone tell this clown that his name "Jacob" is of Hebrew origin??

What an idiot!!

But it would be turning a blind eye to pretend that it hadn't taken on a life of its own as a symbol of hatred.

Are you describing the obvious “ok” signal as such a “coopted symbol”?

depending on where you stand 

you may consider such a gesture to be acceptable,

the point is “you” may. That’s taken away from all of US once the government has not only decided FOR “us”, but starts imprisoning people.

Even people like this guy, who seems to have few redeeming qualities visible.

Dunno if I agree with this. Yes, the Nazis are a huge symbol of racism/white supremacy, but they are not the only one. If the guy wore a KKK costume, who that put him in prison? I suspect a law to do so will not be on Australia's books. There is a reason why you would effectively allow a KKK costume but not allow a Nazi salute, but it is not a pleasant one. It should be obvious to most people who know how the world works.

Well, ok then, the downvotes have it!

Give all your power as citizens, down to what gestures you can make, to the government.

what could possibly go wrong?

Are you describing the obvious “ok” signal as such a “coopted symbol”?

I mentioned that there's a point at which a gesture can start to seem like one. Just like words change over time (when I was a kid there was a kind of meatball, and it's now used as a derogatory term for a homosexual man), gestures can do so as well, and one way in which that happens is that people adopt, and make, that gesture while engaging in a particular kind of behaviour. The gesture starts to become associated with the behaviour. It's basically a sort of real life meme, and if it gets big enough the gesture essentially takes on the "new" meaning.

the point is “you” may. That’s taken away from all of US once the government has not only decided FOR “us”, but starts imprisoning people.

And this comes down to how each person, group, country, government, etc. sets (or doesn't set) their boundaries. In this case at least a part of Australia determined that making the gesture in question is deserving of punishment. The guy knew that and did it anyway. Now some people might make a hero of him for this, and others will consider him an idiot. But he can't claim ignorance of the law, and he certainly can't claim ignorance of what that gesture represents.

Why do people elect a government? Isn't it essentially to carry out the will of the people who elect them? If the majority of people consider the nazi salute to be offensive enough to merit a jail sentence, then that's got to play a part in political decision making. Like it or not, there's always going to be a certain degree of vox populi, vox dei in any social system that has pretences of being democratic.

Look at X/Twitter. (I mean, I'd rather not, but for the purpose of discussion). Musk paints himself as a free speech absolutist, but bans accounts and issues warnings all over the place for "unsuitable language", etc. He has his own boundaries, just like everyone else does.

The nice thing about Australia (and many other countries) is that if you don't agree with the government's decisions, you are free to criticise them, or even try and change them by voting, by entering politics yourself, submitting a petition, etc. If this guy is really serious about being a Professional Nazi, he can serve his jail sentence, come out, and try and change the laws on what is and isn't acceptable to do in public.

I don’t think jailing trash like this for Nazi salutes is the right way to go. Nor other symbols with a brutal history - the Swastika, the Hammer and Sickle or Christian cross.

I don’t think it achieve anything.

Australia going completely off the rails.

Australia going completely off the rails

I wouldn’t go that far. I think you can make a half-decent case for jailing useless nonsense like this.

I just don’t see what it achieves. I can imagine edgy teenagers taking time off from watching porn and calling people cucks on social media and doing this kind of thing just to get a rise out of people.

That's surely another indicator that the so-called free world nowadays is already much worse than it had been in former dictatorships. I know someone who did similar in a former Iron curtain country, and was only ordered to follow the policeman to the local police station, not even hand-cuffed, and then only identity was checked, followed by a strict warning not to do it in public ever again.

Sounds like he’s either a mentalist or an attention seeker to me.

It's not often I agree with Jimizo, but credit where it's due.